I'm posting my first post in this forum because I don't know where else to turn.

Background: There's been a guy in my wife's life for some time, I met him at a few parties, we get along very well, and my wife really likes him - she hardly ever stops talking about him - he's been a real help for her in study (they are both law students), and she knew I would really like him to. Very true.

However, something changed recently. At a Christmas party that my wife did not want me to attend, things went the wrong direction. For a week or so up till the party, my W and I had been making some major breakthrus in our marital problems. These problems stemed largely from 2 main issues:

1) I had had an EA about 4 years ago, it was discovered by my wife at the same time that it was ending (although she never believes that). The affair was a friendship with a co-worker that went way too far, got too personal. This other woman made me feel appreciated and liked, things that have pret`t`y much been missing from my marriage. I'm not blaming my wife, these are ENs I nned her to know (have since been better at explaining them to her, although she still feels that they are not necessary for our marriage - I just need to 'take her as she is')

2) The second main issue was my main LB - dihonesty - mainly in terms of not letting her in to my life, staying very private, and sometimes outright lying about the stupidest things. My wife is brilliant - I doubt that any lie I've ever told her has gone un-noticed.

After discovering MB, I started working on building her Love Bank as much as I could - she refuses reaqd the website because I discovered it, and that is grounds (in her book) to refuse - she has to discover things on her own, or else she believes that she is being 'controlled' - which she hates very much (She is the one who wants to 'control' everything). I think that stems from childhood abuse, but am not sure.

In any event, I discoverd MZB last Sept, and have been dilligent in studying and implementing as much as I can. I read many many posts - there's a lot of helpful advcice on here.

After the Christmas Party, the next day (I went to bed that night - she didn't get home till 3 or 4.) She was a totally changed person. Very cold, mean, and what seemed like angry. I couldn't figure out what was going on, but I asumed it must have been something I had done. I jst couldn't figure out what it was. About a day later, I found a text message on her phone to her friend, stating that she wanted him to wear his santa suit so she could climb on his lap and tell him what she wanted for Christmas. It was also at this time that they started emailing each other pictures from Victoria's Secret.

I thought the Victoria's Secret was just a joke in bad taste (my wife would kill me if I was doing that with another women) and, though it bothered me, I didn't say anything.

But then I found that she has been emailing him much more than just Victoria's Secret - includinjg picturses she took of herself in sexy unhdies, and also hinting at things they had been discussing. She was also writing an 'x-rated' journal for him, I guessw of all her fantasies. The emails were also more explicit, alluding to things they had done, or wanted to do.

This is much farther than the EA I had 4 years ago. We never went so far. And I have been goiung thru hell, beating myself up for what I'd done, and going thru day after day of her resentment and hatred, hearing all about how she was going to divorce me if I don't 'get better' (something that just never seems to change, no matter what I do).

She picked him up yesterday at the airport, a three hour round trip that took 9 hours (the plane was NOT delayed) I asked what she had been doing, she just said "Oh, hanging out".

But this morning I found an email she sent him last night telling him she was still having a huge adrenanlin rush from bieng with him.

Does this indicate a PA? I don't know, but it is most certainly an EA. And she is crazy about him - it will end up a PA.

Today she has avoided me all together - going into other rooms if I walk into one, not talking. Basically back to where she was after the party. (Note: up till yesterday, when she was so busy making herself look stunning) we had slowly been getting back closer again - even talked about sex , which Never HAPPENS! Her friend had been out of town for over two weeks, so the contact was phone calls and emails. I knew this would happen - but now he's in town, and I don't know if I'll get my wife back

I love her deeply, I've tried so hard to make ammends for my affair, and have tried to guess at and fulfill her ENs - I know I have some at leat partly right.

What can I do?

Hello tanelornpete,

Welcome to MB although I am sorry that you have joined our Infidelity "club".

If you have been reading since last September and implementing Plan A since then as well,then you must have some idea about Plan B and what that entails.

It is obvious from what you stated that your WW is very much involved with this OM still.Whether or not it has progressed into a PA I am not sure but if I had to fathom a guess,I would say yes,it's very likely.Especially if she disappears for lengthy periods of time.She is still in the Infatuation stage and the altered brain chemistry of this newfound relationhsip.

If I were you,I would start drafting a PBL(Plan B letter).If you want to give your WW a little more of your time and Plan A say,until the end of January,that would be ok in my book but prolonging Plan A is not helpful to either of you.Usually I think it is recommended for 3-6 months for WW's but I also remember reading that 3 months is more likely the better option so you don't start looking like a "doormat".IMO you can look like a doormat if you keep Plan A'ing during/past a time when your WW will not allow you to fulfill her needs since she is getting that done by the OM.That is not to say you haven't filled her Love Bank at all but usuaully it isn't much when the WS is up to their neck in the A.

Do you have any children together? Home together? What are your ages? DDay? Getting a profile will help anyone else who comes along to have a better idea of who you are and the situation at home.

How are you coping by the way? Are you eating ans sleeping well at this point? Is the OM married too? Has there been exposure yet? Does your family/her family know? What books have you read thus far?

Sorry for all the Q's but it helps to paint a better picture, also for your transition over to the GQII board which you should consider soon.It's more mainstream and gets more traffic.Perhaps after you have received a few more responses here.

O

<small>[ January 12, 2005, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

I believe you need to expose to her what you know. And express to her that you are very very disappointed in her for having an affair. Then move to a plan B within a few weeks is not sooner. I would also expose the affair to family by asking for their help in ending the affair and saving the message.

You know quite a lot and I hope you have kept copies of the emails, often people need to be confronted with the data and if they suspect youhave it they will try to destroy it and then deny.

She is having an affair, and my bet is that she is having some form of sexual contact. From what you say, it is getting easier and easier for her to do this and lie to you. It is time to expose the affair.

God Bless,

JL

I'm sure you'll get more experienced people posting replies that you can learn from. I mainly want to express how sorry I am for your pain and sympathize. It's amazing that one hurt by your own EA would engage in their own affair knowing the destructive nature of the whole thing.

I would say from what you mentioned that she likely is having a PA. But regardless, it's an affair and it's incredibly difficult on you and you have hard choices.

I think you need to explore your own feelings and motivation. Do you want to make this work? Can you get over the betrayal? Do you want to put forth the effort to make it work, even if she's in a fog and won't make an effort herself?

If you want to keep her you'll need to make hard choices about separating her from this OM, even if it means risking losing her. Keep yourself in mind while you do this. Take care of yourself and make changes to yourself that will make you happy and in so doing she might see you as a better person. But even if she nevers does see the better man you've become, you will have bettered yourself and that can't be a bad thing. Stay healthy, eat, etc.

I'm sorry about the shock. It's a terrible thing. The betrayal is the worst part.

Hi Octobergirl!


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>If you have been reading since last September and implementing Plan A since then as well, then you must have some idea about Plan B and what that entails.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’ve been reading and studying since September because I wanted so much to save our marriage – it was already on the rocks because my of a couple of reasons - 1) my wife will not forgive me for my EA of four years ago (she found out three years ago) and 2) because I was still using the same old LBs I had always done – didn’t even know what they were! SO I started using the site and Dr. Harley’s books as a guide to improve myself. Treid to get her involved, but she wouldn’t have a thing to do with it – she is a law student, so needed a lot of time to study, but MORE IMPORTANTLY, she likes to hang out with friends till very late in the evenings ‘partying’ and I’m not invited to that. It’s been that way for almost 17 years of marriage. So I actually haven’t been doing plan A – at all.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>It is obvious from what you stated that your WW is very much involved with this OM still. Whether or not it has progressed into a PA I am not sure but if I had to fathom a guess, I would say yes, it's very likely. Especially if she disappears for lengthy periods of time. She is still in the Infatuation stage and the altered brain chemistry of this newfound relationhsip.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She is in the infatuation stage - I remember that from my own EA – and I know that at that time, I wouldn’t have done a thing unless I was directly confronted with evidence – but here’s a difference. If she had confronted me, I would have at first tried to deny it, but since there would be no choice, I would have backed down – that affair died because I refused to give up my family and choose the other woman when she asked me to. I still loved them all and would not have left them. On the other hand, my wife has been very resentful of the fact that I would actually have an affair, something of which she assured me, she would never, under any circumstances do . I told her she was human, but she told me that was the difference between she and I – she was better than that and it just showed how little I respected her.

I spent the past three years beating myself up for such a stupid action – to the point where earlier this year I tried to kill myself several times by drinking and taking all kinds of sleeping pills. Never could succeed tho, although it gave my wife plenty of ammo to hate me more…

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>If I were you,I would start drafting a PBL(Plan B letter).If you want to give your WW a little more of your time and Plan A say,until the end of January,that would be ok in my book but prolonging Plan A is not helpful to either of you.Usually I think it is recommended for 3-6 months for WW's but I also remember reading that 3 months is more likely the better option so you don't start looking like a "doormat".IMO you can look like a doormat if you keep Plan A'ing during/past a time when your WW will not allow you to fulfill her needs since she is getting that done by the OM.That is not to say you haven't filled her Love Bank at all but usuaully it isn't much when the WS is up to their neck in the A.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will try to draft on, maybe run it by y’all on the board here, but I think it’s too soon – I have yet to confront her. Yes, she thinks I am a doormat – when she found out about our affair and we went to our pastor, I promised that I would do ANYTHING to keep the marriage together, no matter how humiliating. She brings that up anytime I bring up any of my ENs – as if I have no right to them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Do you have any children together? Home together? What are your ages? DDay? Getting a profile will help anyone else who comes along to have a better idea of who you are and the situation at home.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m gonna make one of those profiles for my signature – but we have three kids – 9, 11, and 17 at home; and from a previous marriage, 21 and 24 away from home (one married). That marriage ended the wame way – I walked downstairs one night ‘cause I heard weird noises, and found my ex and the next-door neighbor going at in with all the lights on in the living room floor.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>How are you coping by the way? Are you eating and sleeping well at this point? Is the OM married too? Has there been exposure yet? Does your family/her family know? What books have you read thus far?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have an appointment with my Doc next Monday, I’m asking for anti-depressants. I’ve been taking xanax for several months – I started to have major panic attacks over a year ago – haven’t been able to find a reason, although I suspect it’s related to a subconscious knowledge of the state of my marriage – it’s been dying for about 5 years (one reason I made that awful decision to get involved with a co-worker). OM just got divorced – maybe within the past two months. My family knows, but my wife won’t have anything to do with them – they aren’t ‘her type of people’, and her family has no idea. She told them about my EA, they were very gracious about it when they found out nothing ever came of it. Her dad is possibly my best friend in the whole world. He wasn’t happy, but forgave me and says it’s water under the bridge, as long as I remain a good man for her. I’ve read “Love Busters”; “Fall in Love, Stay in Love”; and “His Needs, Her Needs” Basically, to cope, I'm burying myself at work, and trying to overcome all my LBs and build some love in her Bank - lotta work to do there.....

Here’s my attempt at a signature:

BH (me) 47
W (40)
Not divorced
Not separated
Married 17 years, 3 kids
One previous marriage, 2 kids (me)
First marriage for her
I had an EA 4 years ago, completely gone

Hi JL….

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I believe you need to expose to her what you know. And express to her that you are very very disappointed in her for having an affair. Then move to a plan B within a few weeks is not sooner. I would also expose the affair to family by asking for their help in ending the affair and saving the message.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am very afraid to expose her to what I know – first, because I only got the proof by spying on her, and second, because in the state she is in, she’s likely to say, “Ok, loser, do something about it…” Which would mean doing what she has wanted me to do for a long time – move out. She has spent a lot of time telling her family (at least, her closest sister) what a bad guy I am – for not making enough money, etc. that I don’t think I’d get enough support there…Basically, I’m scared because of what I put her through – and the fact that the last time I confronted my (ex) wife – she left…..

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>You know quite a lot and I hope you have kept copies of the emails, often people need to be confronted with the data and if they suspect you have it they will try to destroy it and then deny.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I managed to print out a couple of letters day before yesterday, but I didn’t do them all – was going to later – but sometime later, she password protected all her word documents, emails, and her profile on Windows XP, as well as shut off the logging function of her MSN. She then burned a bunch of letters and the ‘x-rated’ journal she was keeping about her and her new friend. I have been very open with her – gave her all my passwords, she has total access to all I do, and this is the first time she has ever done this. In fact, this is really the first time she has ever covered anything up from me – her main complaint with me is that I was not open enough with her – my main LB was dishonesty – and she has always been sort of the epitome of an honest person. I know it points to an affair, but it still is so new that I’m reeling and a little unsure of what to do…

If I confront her with the documents, I think that would throw our relationship away – and I keep thinking, if I let this thing go for a while, it will die on its own – its only a rebound for the guy, and he’s half her age. Maybe she IS trading me in for a couple of 20’s! She keeps joking about that….maybe its not a joke!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>She is having an affair, and my bet is that she is having some form of sexual contact. From what you say, it is getting easier and easier for her to do this and lie to you. It is time to expose the affair.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Its easy for her to lie to me ‘cause she’s never done it (as far as I know) in 17 years of marriage…..it’s too out of character. And it lowers her to ‘scum’ level – which is where she considers me ‘cause I lied to her about my affair….

Thanks JL

David

BH (me) 47
W (40)
Not divorced
Not separated
Married 17 years, 3 kids
One previous marriage, 2 kids (me)
First marriage for her
I had an EA 4 years ago, completely gone

Hi Need-an-ear (so do I!)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I would say from what you mentioned that she likely is having a PA. But regardless, it's an affair and it's incredibly difficult on you and you have hard choices.

I think you need to explore your own feelings and motivation. Do you want to make this work? Can you get over the betrayal? Do you want to put forth the effort to make it work, even if she's in a fog and won't make an effort herself?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I want it to work, but I’m quickly losing the urge – I’ve spent three years kicking myself over this (and not fixing things perfectly, I’d like to add) but it seems to me that she’s just looking for excuses to finish our marriage, and no matter what I do, it won’t last. She says she will not divorce me till the kids grow up because she believes it causes more damage to the kids while they are young, but at the same time, she’s almost made a living out of making sure I keep paying and paying for my sin. She’s already told me she can’t forgive me, and it’s getting harder and harder to go on…I think that’s why I’m going to my doc to get onto Ads. May help me to focus better…

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>If you want to keep her you'll need to make hard choices about separating her from this OM, even if it means risking losing her. Keep yourself in mind while you do this. Take care of yourself and make changes to yourself that will make you happy and in so doing she might see you as a better person. But even if she never does see the better man you've become, you will have bettered yourself and that can't be a bad thing. Stay healthy, eat, etc.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know, I know. This is all stuff I keep writing in my journal every day. I’m already a better man – everyone except her and the friends she talks to about me see that. I don’t know what to do. I just don’t want to lose her. Maybe I’m looking backwards thru rose-tinted glasses – she keeps telling me she’s never been happy since she married me – I remember a lot of really fun things we’ve done together….And you are right. Betrayal is the worst part. And her knowing the pain it caused three years ago and STILL doing it now seems almost unbearable.

BH (me) 47
W (40)
OM (23)
Not divorced
Not separated
Married 17 years, 3 kids
One previous marriage, 2 kids (me)
First marriage for her
I had an EA 4 years ago, completely gone

Don't let your fear of what she will do control you. You need to plan and act. She will have a fit when you expose - so what? You don't have a marriage now, what have you got to lose? Trust me, you need to be strong here (NOT harsh, strong...no LB's!). Doormat's are not respected. The Plan A links in my signature line link deal with how to do Plan A without being a doormat.

Look, your wife is HAVING AN AFFAIR!!!! Plan A and Plan B are your best chance at saving your marriage - not a guarantee. Stop feeling guilty about what you DID and start planning what you need to DO. Stop accepting her lies and excuses, and act.

Hi David,

Glad to see that you are still with us and you have received some responses from some of the best seasoned MB'ers.I don't know 'need an ear' but JL and john are great advisors.

Ok,so you haven't exposed the A to your W.Well,I understand your apprehension but really,if you have been a student of MB for the past several months,you know this is quite necessary.You can only change yourself and granted,I have heard so many people go through their married life truly hurting one another for years but it's never too late to try and make things better and you have tried.I will admit too that many people do get a bit self righteous at times and feel that remaining in the marriage is just not an option anymore for what they perceive as being in an unhappy marriage for so long.However,many/most WS's rewrite history to make it sound like the BS was a monster and they never should of married us in the first place. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Yes you were unfaithful before and perhaps you didn't get the appropriate counseling for that? Not sure but if your WW still harbors all this animosity toward you about it,she may still be feeling that it was never addressed properly and you both have not healed.What a mess too,adultery everywhere.Your first W,then you,now your W,OM too and now is D'd himself.And look at all the destruction.It amazes me that people are still,increasingly so,making this CHOICE,to cheat as if it's the only(exciting) way to solve marital problems.ugh.It's nothing but escape,a fantasy.

In my opinion,the bigger issue here is the children.Your WW says she doesn't want to D you until the children grow up but just how does she propose to keep the peace with you until then? That is not an answer either.She is either in the marriage or out,not half way.I am sorry you were so desperate to try and kill yourself.I too felt an extreme sense of wanting to end it all when I first found out about my WH's adultery but my children brought me back to reality and reminded me that they were my only reason for going on then.They truly saved me.It was a horrible horrible time.

Listen,I know you said you don't want to lose your WW but YOU ALREADY ARE.It's time to follow those plans that we have and stick to them.I don't know what other websites you may have looked at but this one was the best one I could find that seems to have a real plan for saving the marriage.It doesn't always happen though,adultery is such a HUGE trauma to come back from and many marriages don't survive but those that do can be wonderful and fulfilling if both partners are willing to give it that chance.

It's almost certain that the A your WW is having with this young guy will die out but what you do NOW is critical.Try to develop a thicker skin too because your WW is throwing all the years worth of anger and hurt at you,waiting for you to LB back so she can say,"SEE! I knew you are terrible and weren't going to change".Stuff like that.Also,consider exposing to her family.You said her dad is probably your best friend,well,if he forgave you YOUR Infidelity,then he may want to help your WW too.

It's time to lay ALL the cards on the table.Let us know how it goes.Then,consider coming over to GQII.Good luck,be strong!

O

<small>[ January 13, 2005, 09:54 AM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

Well, there's nno doubt I have to confront her. I just had a long talk with my pastor about some good ways to do it - he's willing to do an intervention, but I'd like to try this on my own first.

Funny thing is, yesterday morning when I awoke, she was gone. She came back home with some lame excuses, and also said that she lost her phone.

As I was getting ready to go to the store, I found a mapquest map to some house in another part of town. I called a PI friend of mine, who checked it out: it was the OM's house - she had gone there.

She told me she lost her phone at one of her friends houses, but then I found an email today on her computer (by golly, she left it on this morning!)from the OM saying he found it. Also, there was a very long appology from her about whow she came on too strong to him yesterday and she was going to back off till he was ready - apparently he's thinking things over and not wanting to get involved with a married woman....good choice!

Anyway, I asked her where her phone had been, she lied, of course.

However, I have all the proof I need, I just need the courage to go thru with this....she's been laying it on very thick today about how I haven't done enough to earn here trust, and there are huge issues we have with honesty - that I am still the evil guy - and this before I even brought anything up.

Can't wait to see what will happen.

I need prayers....

David

tanelornpete, you have an opportunity here that I also had and passed on. You know the OM and you have just found out that he could actually be an asset. If your W apologized for coming on too strong it makes it very clear that she is the pursuer. I was in the same situation but paralyzed by fear so I never confronted the OM who was also much younger. If I had called him and asked him, as suggested on this site, "what are your intentions with my W" I would not be where I am now. He would have backed off realizing it wasn't worth all the grief of an angry husband. You seemingly have this same chance since you say this young man is somewhat of a friend to you. That may be what's holding him back. Please call him and tell him your suspicions without accusing him of anything. This saves your W the embarrassment of possibly much greater damage. In other words if you simply make this guy dissappear from your lives you won't have to expose the A to her family. And believe me if it goes on, nobody will have to say anything to anyones family; they will have figured it out. When you start attending family functions looking 20 pounds lighter and not being able to finish a sentence from sleep deprivation, they will have figured it out. Step up to the plate man, I wish I had.

Fast forward 3 years after my d-day to today. W continues contact with her ONS partner in a weekly pool league. So today she asks me to lunch and we meet at a bar/restaurant where she heard the food is good. Guess who walks in? OM comes in says hello and walks away. I was a mess after that. When we left the restaurant W assured me that she didn't tell him we'd be there and as we went our seperate ways after lunch (me back to work) she said "was lunch a complete disaster?". Do you want to deal with this in 3 years?????????????????????? Do what all the experts are telling you; take this head on!!!! Please learn from what you have read here these last 7 months.

WOE

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> A word about confronting the OP, when a WS is unwilling to end an affair on their own, because this question comes up a lot, and many people advise that you avoid confronting the OP, because discussions between BS’s and OP’s tend to be unhelpful and painful for the BS. I do not suggest having much of a discussion. I DO suggest confronting the OP, and also informing the OP’s spouse or girlfriend or boyfriend of what you know, if they have one. If the OP’s spouse/friend is likely to be violent, you may want to hold off on that exposure, but that is the only exception I know of, other than a message from God.

The confrontation of the OP is fairly important, and should be worded carefully. Given the emotional state you are probably in right after you learn of an affair, that usually means doing it by letter or email, or maybe a phone call. I do not recommend direct confrontations because of the strong temptation you may have to become physically violent.

Whatever method you use to communicate, say something like: “I love [spouse], and am trying to fix what is wrong with our marriage. I believe your relationship with [spouse] is interfering with our efforts to fix our marriage, and I would appreciate it if you would cease all contact with [spouse].” If you are CERTAIN it is a physical affair, you can use the word “affair”, instead of “relationship”. If you have children, you may also say that the OP is contributing to the destruction of a family.

They may laugh at you, but it is important to send that message, respectfully, for several reasons:

1. Because the OP may not know the WS is married. If that is the case, confronting the OP sometimes leads immediately to the end of the affair.
2. Because WS’s usually (almost always?) depict their spouse in a negative way to the OP. They say things like: “My wife doesn’t understand me” or “My husband won’t talk to me”, “My spouse is unconcerned about me and/or our marriage” or “We have an open relationship”, or something worse – you are crazy, controlling, cruel, etc. So, you need to confront the OP in a way that shows you at your best – not crazy, not unconcerned, not controlling, not angry, but rather calm, kind, purposeful, determined and concerned for your spouse and your relationship with them. When you do that, it introduces conflict into their relationship, because there is a conflict between what the OP experiences, and what they have been told.
3. Many WS’s and OP’s minimize the seriousness of their affairs with rationalizations like: “It’s only physical”, or, in the case of an Emotional Affair, “It’s just a close friendship” and “It’s not physical.” The language I have suggested avoids giving them a point to argue, and simply says it is hurting you.
4. In most cases, affairs grow in secret, and they die when exposed.


Remember that affairs are addictions. What happens when you try to take away an addict's fix? Frequently, they get angry. It is fairly common for a WS to get EXTREMELY angry when you expose their affair and confront the OP, and accuse you of trying to destroy them and your marriage and of being a horrible human being, so be prepared for an angry response. It is not a lovebuster, it is fighting for your marriage. You are doing nothing horrible. They are. You are fighting to save your marriage. They are destroying it. You are telling the truth. They are being deceitful.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Hi john -

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I DO suggest confronting the OP, and also informing the OP’s spouse or girlfriend or boyfriend of what you know, if they have one. If the OP’s spouse/friend is likely to be violent, you may want to hold off on that exposure, but that is the only exception I know of, other than a message from God.

The confrontation of the OP is fairly important, and should be worded carefully. Given the emotional state you are probably in right after you learn of an affair, that usually means doing it by letter or email, or maybe a phone call. I do not recommend direct confrontations because of the strong temptation you may have to become physically violent.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I really don't want to confront the OM - I've always been so non-confrontational that simply preparing some sort of Plan A has me so stressed my Dr. upped my med dosages. I'm also rather non-violent. I am not as angry as I should be, I don't think. I am more sad and hurt. It doesn't help that I've got this stupid flu and can hardly think anyway...

I do have a question, though - in his article on Plan A, Dr. Harley states that it must be done 'without demands' - I don't understand how I can ask her to stop seeing this guy (it ain't gonna happen - he's in her law classes). But how can I ask her to stop without it being a 'demand' - isn't that sort of the definition of a demand? I understand that it shouldn't be a 'Selfish Demand" (LB) - but good lord, I AM being selfish here! I don't want my wife 1) sleeping with another man, and 2) getting hurt when the guy (half her age) dumps her.

How do I word it?????

FYI, the OM just went thru a painful divorce about a month ago because his wife would not stop sleeping around. We've been friends for about a year...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">1. Because the OP may not know the WS is married. If that is the case, confronting the OP sometimes leads immediately to the end of the affair.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh he knows. He's spent evenings at our house playing games. watching movies, etc.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2. Because WS’s usually (almost always?) depict their spouse in a negative way to the OP. They say things like: “My wife doesn’t understand me” or “My husband won’t talk to me”, “My spouse is unconcerned about me and/or our marriage” or “We have an open relationship”, or something worse – you are crazy, controlling, cruel, etc. So, you need to confront the OP in a way that shows you at your best – not crazy, not unconcerned, not controlling, not angry, but rather calm, kind, purposeful, determined and concerned for your spouse and your relationship with them. When you do that, it introduces conflict into their relationship, because there is a conflict between what the OP experiences, and what they have been told.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good advice.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Remember that affairs are addictions. What happens when you try to take away an addict's fix? Frequently, they get angry. It is fairly common for a WS to get EXTREMELY angry when you expose their affair and confront the OP, and accuse you of trying to destroy them and your marriage and of being a horrible human being, so be prepared for an angry response. It is not a lovebuster, it is fighting for your marriage. You are doing nothing horrible. They are. You are fighting to save your marriage. They are destroying it. You are telling the truth. They are being deceitful.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know what there is left to fight for. My posts in the Emotional Needs threads go into that more. I am deeply in love with something about my wife, but she has drained the Love Bank so far that I am confused as to what it is unless I am just addicted to her.....This is so confusing....


By the way, Romans 12:2 is my favorite verse - kind of my life's aphorism.

Do you understand the difference between a demand and a request?

Word it as a request.

I can tell you are a conflict avoider from your posts. I was one, too - still am, in fact, far too often. However, you cannot have a great marriage without learning how to engage in conflict in a constructive way. "Conflict is the doorway to intimacy" as Gary Smalley says. So, I am learning. I may go to IC if I can't change enough. I've come a long way, but there is still a long way to go.

I have another book for you to read, if you find reading books helpful. It's called "The State of Affairs", by Todd Mulliken. It is all about how control issues affect marriages and affairs. Typically, a "Controller" (like your wife) marries a "Pleaser", (like you). Affairs by both parties are common unless they find a way to equalize the marital relationship. I believe that is because that kind of "unequal yoking" is not the way God designed marriage to work, and it doesn't.

<small>[ January 14, 2005, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

Hi John -
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do you understand the difference between a demand and a request?

Word it as a request.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Gotcha

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I can tell you are a conflict avoider from your posts. I was one, too - still am, in fact, far too often. However, you cannot have a great marriage without learning how to engage in conflict in a constructive way. "Conflict is the doorway to intimacy" as Gary Smalley says. So, I am learning. I may go to IC if I can't change enough. I've come a long way, but there is still a long way to go.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We have much in common! I just contacted my first counselor about my issues with self-esteem and conflict - is an IC some sort of counsellor? I have my first appt next week - gonna be a busy week.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have another book for you to read, if you find reading books helpful. It's called "The State of Affairs", by Todd Mulliken.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm an avid reader - I'll get it right away. Thanks. Thank you for your advice and support. And I agree that this may be a form of that 'unequal yoking' - never thought of it that way. My mom was the same kind of woman, and there were some AMAZING fireworks between my wife and mom untill my wife finally forebade any further contact with my family at all (she even returns the gifts grandma sends the kids for birthdays and holidays 'because 'that's just your mom trying to get her foot in the door....')

Odd things we idiots do....

David

IC=Individual Counselor
MC=Marriage Counselor

BTW, I will caution you that many IC's are worse than completely worthless when it comes to counseling someone about their marriage, so be careful who you see, or what advice you take. The links in the quote below abuout the dangers of incompetent counselors apply triple to IC's who are trying to give people marriage advice. IC's focus on you, and what makes you happy and unhappy. When you are in a lousy marriage, it is easy to blame your spouse, because being in a bad marriage is not pleasant. So, leaving a miserable marriage may seem like the logical way to fix things. Fixing the marriage may be the BEST option, but it may not even be considered, since that involves another person, and, as everyone knows, you can only change yourself. Even if it IS considered, however, most Marriage Counselors are not competent to help you fix your marriage. ICs are even less so. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 2.) See a marriage counselor. This is hard. You need help. These boards are populated by amateurs. MC?s are professionals. There is a difference. They can help deal with issues the books don't cover, and customize things to your individual situation. That said, there are lots of bad MC's in the world. Read, and take to heart, How To Find A Good Marriage Counselor. You do not want an MC that is going to teach you how to live with an awful spouse, or how to adjust to divorce. Too many of them do, as is documented here: Hazardous Counseling. Reading that link may scare you off counseling, but it should give you some good ideas to ask a potential MC before you start w/ them, so you can avoid those that give you the wrong answers. You need one that is committed to helping couples have great marriages, and knows how to do that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That said, don't use it as an excuse not to act. Just go into this with your eyes open, understanding that you probably will need a competent MC, too. Your IC will almost certainly focus on the control issues you face - which probably extend far beyond your relationship with your wife. Dealing with those may make your marriage worse, or at least have more conflict, short term. Long term though, you have to develop a more equal partnership, or your marriage will not survive.

John, everyone - I'm having another major problem now - my wife is avoiding me as much as possible. I haven't seen her more than two or three minutes per day in the past five.

I also am having a problem that maybe most BS's do, I feel like I'm on the edge of simply falling apart mentally - I can't stop my panic and anxiety, even with upping my doses of Xanax/Valium - I'm afraid of ODing. At least I'm right there at work in the Emergency Romm - I'd be right there with all my doctor and nurse friends. This may sound like an idiot question, but how am I going to cope with this?

I've already alerted the two charge nurses and the triage nurses that I've had a major family crisis and things are really messed up right now - so they are aware of some of the problem (not the actual thing) - I'm not a drug-addict, I don't do drugs (anymore - hey, I lived thru the 70s) for pleasure, but this is getting to be more than i can seem to handle. I cannot afford to lose any work time, my wife doesn't make any money (she's a FT student), and beyond that, she would view me taking time off work as a perfect opportunity to LB me - it took me almost 6 months to land a job after I lost my last one.

I have written and rewritten and rewritten what I want to say in starting my plan A - so that it will be in love and with empathy, no LBs on my part.

This morning I woke up after about 3 hours of sleep, she was up, so I went out to talk to her - asked if she was going to be around later - but all she does when I ask that is get really defensive.

I think she is...with the OM at night when I work - but I have no way to tell. I also think a lot of her friends are in on this thing - that's a deduction I made from overhearing a phone conversation today.

Anyway, I went back to sleep, and when I woke up she was leaving the house - I don't think she'll be back before I have to leave again.

Should I maybe leave her a letter telling her what I know and that I want to talk about it? I really wanted to do it face to face.

And I love her so much. This may literally kill me. It feels like it. Any suggestions?

David

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have written and rewritten and rewritten what I want to say in starting my plan A - so that it will be in love and with empathy, no LBs on my part. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">??? Huh?

You don't WRITE Plan A, you don't inform your spouse, you just do it. I hope the links in the quote below will clear things up for you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If your spouse is NOT willing to work on your marriage, is denying involvement in an affair despite the evidence, and/or is continuing an affair, read What Are Plan A and Plan B? after reading the "Basic Concepts" links below. In that case, you need to start Plan A with the help of a marriage counselor (see item #2, below). There are a couple terrific posts about Plan A that are worth reading at: Plan A, Doormats and Love Busters by Zorweb and Cerri on Plan A, which will help you avoid some of the common pitfalls. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by johnh39:
<strong> [QUOTE] I have written and rewritten and rewritten what I want to say in starting my plan A - so that it will be in love and with empathy, no LBs on my part. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">??? Huh?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">[QB]You don't WRITE Plan A, you don't inform your spouse, you just do it. I hope the links in the quote below will clear things up for you.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi John - that's not what I meant - I meant I have written out various ways to bring it up in a loving and honest manner...

And I DID just do it - about an hour ago - with the typical results: it's all my fault, we are now getting a divorce, we must separate immediately, she will NOT stop being around the OM, etc.

Now I'm stuck with waiting to see what happens. RIght now she has locked the bedroom door and is on the phone with who knows who, telling them what a bad guy I am...

I am in shock, I believe - total panic attack, scared, sad.....dangit this is so hard!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And I DID just do it - about an hour ago </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">???

Plan A is not something you do as a one-time thing. It is a change in the way you relate to your spouse which you keep up for as long as you can, and then you go to Plan B. Now it is sometimes the case that you cannot do it for more than a few minutes...but that means it's time for Plan B.

Did you read those links?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now I'm stuck with waiting to see what happens. RIght now she has locked the bedroom door and is on the phone with who knows who, telling them what a bad guy I am... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't worry too much about how she reacts. Just work your Plan. She is in a fog and will not respond as expected or desired. It is likely that her external and internal reactions will be different, or even opposite.

Don't worry about what she says or does. Worry about what YOU are saying and doing.

<small>[ January 16, 2005, 10:18 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>