I have been thinking for sometime now about plan "A" and how well that really works?

I know the purpose of it but I am confused by how well it works. Is it a form of manipulation? Think about it! If a WS leaves the M. for OP then obviously something is wrong, right? Not all affairs are equal. I know, but that is usually the case. But from reading here, the WS usually mentions that there is something missing or that they realized that they didn't marry the right person. OK, so after WS is exposed and BS is now Plan A'ing WS to get back what they had. Well, How long will plan A last once WS wants to be back with them? Then will it be back to the same old, same old? Kind of like, OK I'll be so sweet to you if you come back to me then we'll return to the normal behavior? I know that is what MC is for, but from talking to a lot and I mean a lot of people, the marriage usually goes back to the same old pattern. You know the old saying, "A tiger cannot hide its stripes."

I am not trying to be a downer nor am I trying to take away any encouragement. I am just curious to what others have to say. Because I am confused. I just know a lot of people that went through similar situations and went back to themselves...and are on the line of divorce!

Any ideas here? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Ali~

Hi Alli
I agree with all you said,and I dont really have any ideas but here is my thought and experiance on the whole plan "A" thing.

After D day I did a great plan A without even knowing what a plan A was(i did not find MB for several months after d-day)my H was taken back by how wonderful I was,even told OW this.Said something to the effect that "I did not know she could be so wonderful" yea rite but anyway. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
We give and we give until we can give no more,so the secret to the success I believe lies on how the WS reacts to plan A.
Do they sit around and do nothing just taking it all in until we can plan A no more,or do they give it back.

When a WS gives back to the BS this is when I believe true recovery can start.In your case and mine our H's did not mind us doing a plan A to them but they were not about to do anything back.So we get tired of giving and giving and getting nothing in return so we return to the "same old,same old".
I truly believe that when the WS is willing to change also and not just for a short time but to change their whole lifestyle as to make the M better that is when we see recovery and success.

I know that is what is written in SAA and I believe it with all my heart.BOTH partners have to be willing to change and work.One can not do it all.

A successful M after an A all depends on how much each partner is willing to change.
I have no problem giving everything to someone I love when I am getting it back,but when I give all that I have to give with nothing in return I get tired and stop.This is the point I got to when my H had his A,and it was the point I got to when I finally said enough and moved out.
You can only live in the "same old,same old" after an A for so long before it ends up destroying you.

Yes there is a purpose for plan A,but there is a time to move on from plan A.Either to a successful recovory or an end to a M.

Thats just my thoughts I'm no expert <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ February 10, 2005, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: gingersnap ]</small>

Hey Gin,

Give me a call tomorrow. I should be home. Need to talk. I can call you back because I have that one rate thing.......Okie Dokie?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Good point! I guess it is when BOTH parties want to make it work. But when do you think the resentment will take over after all the lovie dovie, oh I am so sorry for not listening to your needs blah, blah, blah???? Hummmmm!

Ali~

Plan A works because during it the BS is changing and then during recovery, both are healing from the A. The BS and WS are becoming different people. Do they resent each other? Yeah, in the beginning. The WS thinks that the BS drove him/her to the A. The BS can't believe he/she would stay with a cheater. But as you slowly put the pieces back together, you realize that you don't marry the perfect partner, you create the perfect partner.

Yeah, I could think, "How can I stay with someone who did that to me?" But then I think about our lives after a divorce. I would still have to learn to communicate with this man because we have a daughter together, why not try to do it while we are still married?

The only way the M will recover is if both people are dedicated to changing their bad habits. You will be surprised how much two people can change.

I know. I wish I didn't end up like this. I wish my H. had the will as much as I did. I sometimes sit back and try to figure out what the H*ll I did? I guess I didn't meet his standards of a fantasy wife. I never refused the physicalness between us... well, up until now? I always put myself there for him no matter what. So I am not the perfect house keeper. But I am not a slob either. I have two small kids. Hard and exhausting to keep up with them. He expects perfection. I am not near perfect. I definitely have faults. I was made sure of them tonight. I envy all those who have had hardships and are to be able to pull out of it. Very lucky to find that one true love. Even after an Affair.

I am so afraid to find love again. I don't want to get hurt again. I am so afraid I am going to end up with the same type of person. But I don't want to spend my life a lone either. This is the first time that I am dreading Valentine's Day. I am sick to my tum tum thinking about it. I usually have my cards before Feb 1st. This year I don't.

OK I am going through one of those down periods.

Ali! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I hope to GOD that this posts. I have been having major problems logging in now this thing is not accepting my post ahhhhhhhhh! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> FIX THE PROBLEM! This site is my saving grace!

Hi Ali,

After reading here for about three years, I think there is a lot of mis information about plan A going around and around. I don't have my stored threads here (it's in a file at work) but there are posts about how you don't have to be a door mat in plan A, and you don't protect the WS from the consenquences of their bad decisions either. I think if you follow Georgia Guy on GQ2, you would see a good example (though he is in plan B now.)

One of the things you do do, is make it safe for them to change, and come back to the marriage. Many are so angry that they blast the WS, and if the WS has to choose between an angry, mean BS, and a kind OP, they often choose the OP. It doesn't mean they get every thing they want, and it doesn't mean the BS burns them selves out trying to make life perfect for the WS.

I envy all those who have had hardships and are to be able to pull out of it. Very lucky to find that one true love. Even after an Affair.

I believe "true loves" are made, not found. I think (after watching couples for many years) that after the first blush of love is off the relationship, there is always lots work to do. If a person follows Dr Harley program, it can really work well, but both have to come out of their comfort zones, and do the work.

I am so afraid to find love again. I don't want to get hurt again. I am so afraid I am going to end up with the same type of person. But I don't want to spend my life a lone either.

I think the biggest mistake I see is people going out and dating and falling in love to soon.

1. Before they have time to fix them selves - because a D often really messes up a person emotionally, and it takes time to come out of it.

2. On the rebound - because "I deserve love, and happiness, and love, and sex" or whatever. People are not careful, they want affection, and they want it now.

I believe if a person is careful, follows Dr Harleys program, gets to know a person before spending too much time with them ( so that the love bank doesn't get full too fast) then it can work really well. You have been around long enough to have seen the good, and the bad - I think you could be writing this if it was for someone else. It's just that you are afraid for YOU.

This is the first time that I am dreading Valentine's Day. I am sick to my tum tum thinking about it. I usually have my cards before Feb 1st. This year I don't.

Please explain this a little more for me. I would like to hear your feelings expanded.

OK I am going through one of those down periods.

I always tell myself "go to sleep, you'll feel better in the morning."

I always have -

How about you?

SS

Hi SS!

I agree with you about the relationship part after a divorce. I think the most important thing about starting a relationship is starting a friendship first. When that time comes I guess. JMO, with a friendship first there are no threats about being on your best behavior, putting up a front so your interest sees only the best of you. And then theres that feel comfortable with each other to be themselves and you get to know them a lot better than a falling into love from a "crush". Ha, if my best friend was a guy? We'd be married by now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I am afraid! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> This is a whole new beginning for me. I look at my kids and I want to be the best role model that I can be. I don't want to fail. I never felt that if my marriage fails, than I failed. I just see that two people or incompatible and they tried or at least one tired then it is for the best to make it right in their lives and create a good scene for the kids. I cannot imagine living with Randy, knowing that there is another form of happiness out there. We don't fulfill our needs. Yes, sometimes after counseling we felt good about each other and that we'd "loved" for a while, then it went back to the same old. The love and respect for each other was never consistant. No news there!

As for Valentine's day? It is just that I always looked forward to the holiday. I would buy Randy cute things give him my heart felt notes, etc. And this is the first year that I had no motivation to do such. It is like my heart is truly recognizing that he is not for me. I will always have a love for him because of our history that we shared but that love is not that "in love" type that can be a marriage and trust..

I did get some sleep last night. Although my youngest who is almost three, has been waking up every night for the last three weeks screaming his head off. Night terrors? So for an hour, I have to listen to him scream. I feel helpless. But each day goes, I try to take as it comes. Make sense?

I am motivated to get my goal going. I wish someone was in the horse buisness on this form. I could really use their insite. This is a tough industry. But I am using it for therapeutic reasons instead of the breeding...hunter/jumper thing. It is calling to me. Kind of like the movie "Field of Dreams". "If you build it, they will come." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

At least that is me keeping busy. I try not to let my doubts over come me. But it is so overwhelming. The more Randy, controls, the more I run and dig more into this. So I guess by us staying together could be a plus!!!!!

Thanks Still, your posts mean a lot to me. And everyone else on here too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Ali~

I think the most important thing about starting a relationship is starting a friendship first.

I agree. I married my best friend, and I would rather be with her than anyone on earth. You can learn a lot by knowing someone over time, but not being romanticly involved. It's just that some people are starved, and they get in deep so quickly.

I never felt that if my marriage fails, than I failed. I just see that two people or incompatible and they tried or at least one tired then it is for the best to make it right in their lives and create a good scene for the kids.

I used to believe in compatible, and incompatible. I suppose I still do in some ways (marrying between very different cultures.) Now I think it is mostly selfishness on the part of one or both that destroys marriages. If you love someone, and want really bad to make it work, you can make it work. However, it takes TWO, and it takes WORK. Counseling, and learning to meet needs LONG TERM. It sounds like Randy wants to coast, and that won't do. There is no way you can do it alone.

I cannot imagine living with Randy, knowing that there is another form of happiness out there. We don't fulfill our needs. Yes, sometimes after counseling we felt good about each other and that we'd "loved" for a while, then it went back to the same old. The love and respect for each other was never consistant. No news there!

Again, if he was actively meeting your needs, showing care, and concern for you, your feelings would be different. I am so sorry things are this way. I keep wishing better for you, Ginger, and SAB. How come there are so many men, that are so dense?

As for Valentine's day? It is just that I always looked forward to the holiday. I would buy Randy cute things give him my heart felt notes, etc. And this is the first year that I had no motivation to do such. It is like my heart is truly recognizing that he is not for me. I will always have a love for him because of our history that we shared but that love is not that "in love" type that can be a marriage and trust..

Trust is a really big factor, isn't it. When you never know how someone will react from day to day. When they can be good one day, but distant, or a monster on other days, the love dies. I have been working in that myself.

I did get some sleep last night. Although my youngest who is almost three, has been waking up every night for the last three weeks screaming his head off. Night terrors? So for an hour, I have to listen to him scream. I feel helpless. But each day goes, I try to take as it comes. Make sense?

We have 8 children -I took my turn at night, I know what you mean. Lucky for me, my W was kind, and took most of the all nighters because I worked full time, and she was a SAHM.

Our youngest at home are twin girls 11 years old, so we sleep well most nights. Grand kids are fun, you send them home at night.

I am motivated to get my goal going. I wish someone was in the horse buisness on this form. I could really use their insite. This is a tough industry. But I am using it for therapeutic reasons instead of the breeding...hunter/jumper thing. It is calling to me. Kind of like the movie "Field of Dreams". "If you build it, they will come."

I remember.....you asked me if I ride, but I don't think I gave a reply. My BIL/Sister used to have horses, but they sold them and moved to Texas. I have a good friend in Idaho that has horses, but he says they are "most useful for turning twenty dollar bills into fertlizer." I don't know anyone that makes money on them. Where I live (western US) they are used mostly for riding and packing into wilderness areas, ranching, and rodeo. I have ridden a little, but I am not considered a cowboy by the other cowboys. Make sense?

At least that is me keeping busy. I try not to let my doubts over come me. But it is so overwhelming. The more Randy, controls, the more I run and dig more into this. So I guess by us staying together could be a plus!!!!!

Why is Randy not helping? I remember at one time he was posting here too, and it seemed like he was trying. Why did he quit? Has he always been this selfish?

Have you been able to over come your resentment and love him again? Or has it been downhill ever since?

Have a nice weekend, we'll pray for some sleep for you and the little one.

SS

<small>[ February 11, 2005, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

The art of growing up is admitting fault!

Right now, I feel like I am at square one all over again. Remember that feeling when we just found out about our SP cheating. It seemed like we would never get pass the pain. OK so I am finally past it. So now, I am more anxious than ever. I never had so much anxiety before. Not the nervous that I am afraid kind, The kind of anxiety that I have to get the hell out of here. I cannot sit in this house. I look to this computer as comfort. Am I becoming addicted? I have been doing a lot research for goal and been spending a lot of time on this.
OK as I am here, I am told that I am selfish by Randy. He is so good at manipulating and projecting. I am sooo sick of him trying to blame me for his problems. He now all the sudden wants to talk. He is also very curious to what I am posting on here. I said to him when I am done be my guest look! He has a computer at work look then.

OK gotta go. He is rattling my nerves!

GET ME OUT OF HERE!!!!!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

That's your flight response kicking in. When a situation is too uncomfortable (or makes us anxious), it's natural to want to flee from it. It could also mean that now you've made a decision to divorce that your body just needs a well earned rest to recharge your batteries so that you can face what's ahead. Either way, I would like the jitters as a good sign in the right direction.

Hang in there. You can do it. Did you ever see the movie, "Shirley Valentine"? She ran all the way to Greece!

<small>[ February 14, 2005, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: SAB ]</small>

So, did he look, and did he comment?

You are:

poor
good
fantastic

today?

SS

Hello there.

Not sure if he looked but he called my Mother and cried to her that he doesn't want a divorce and that he loves me yadda, yadda, yadda. I feel bad in ways. But I wonder if what he feels is more of an attachment. You know, he feels comfortable around me thing. I think he is confused. I go in and out of the confusion myself because he is a familiarity as well. Maybe I don't know what I want? I have a huge romantic side to me and that confuses me too. I try to stay focused and see the things the way they really are.

On a positive note that makes me more on a high, is that my therapist gave my number to a client of hers because she had hurt her back and has horses that need attention badly. So, I went over there this morning and looked at them. And here is the cool thing, she lives about a half mile outside of my subdivison. So I am going to be doing her a favor as well as she will be doing me one. The thing is that it is really cold now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Hey we hit a balmy 28 degrees today. Still up for that Luau here? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> So I am extremely excited about that. But I just found out that my youngest son is deathy afraid of horses? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Umm, that is going to change! Like really fast!

It's amazing that how quickly my views in life changes. OK get this one, I was filing up the Jeep this evening and as I was filing up, these guys were checking me out. OK, while they were doing that, I thought to myself; "In 20 years, I will not have this type of appeal." Very depressing. I guess that is why I want to move forward with my life and hit my goals. Because life is traveling so fast and if I waste one more day, I would have missed a life time of opportunities! I just woke up and realized; "This is it!" Is this a mid-life crisis????? Why when we are in our 20's are we so stupid? I am not saying all of us. OK I will just speak for myself here. Take life for granted! I feel like I am waited to the last minute to really see and experience life as it is. Anyone feel this way?

Ali~

Ride'em cowboy! Yeee haw.

Not sure if he looked but he called my Mother and cried to her that he doesn't want a divorce and that he loves me yadda, yadda, yadda. I feel bad in ways. But I wonder if what he feels is more of an attachment. You know, he feels comfortable around me thing. I think he is confused.

He's afraid of losing you. Assuming his feelings are real, what's he going to DO about them? He'll have to do more than cry. If he did do something positive, would you be receptive to it? Would it change anything for you?

In 20 years, I will not have this type of appeal."

Says who:eek:? Please...You may be getting older but you're not dead yet.

It's wonderful to feel appreciated (like those guys checkin you out). It's a real ego-booster. Enjoy the compliments. Somebody notices <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

I don't know. I just don't think he would ever do a 180 turn around. From my experience from me and others that I know, that if he did do a 180 turn around it wouldn't last. OK let's say a miracle happens and he was wonderful and I fell in love with him all over again. I just don't see it lasting. We know each other all to well and the respect is gone. Since we crossed that line of lack of respect, that cannot be corrected. We are too comfortable with it. It is all gone. BIG WAKE UP CALL. I know too many people that almost went through the same thing I did. (but no cheating) And they went through counseling and all that. After counseling things were wonderful, then it slowly got to be right where they were. Back to the same old. Then they went to the divorce. I just don't want the pain and a heartache anymore. I just cannot trust him.

Let's say me and the H. divorced tomorrow. Let's say, I found someone and we really liked each other. The lesson that I learned from this marriage will reflect so much that I know what I need to do in my role to keep it alive or do my part. I am not perfect. But again, Randy admitted to me that I did really nothing wrong. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I met all his needs in ways. I am not going to say I was perfect. Because I am not. But his self esteem and his anger towards the world took a huge toll on us. Then with the unemployeement? That was really difficult. But the key that I learn is and I always believed in this is C-O-M-M-U-N-I-C-A-T-I-O-N!

He heee heee! I know I am not dead but hell, when I am 55 years old, I will not have guys in their early 20's or even their 30's checking me out unless they really like older womem! LOL

I guess right now, I want something that I cannot have. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Ali~

OK I am going to vent!

This is also a silent vent. No one here knows what I am yelling about. Well, maybe Ginger.
But here it goes...

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

OK I feel a tad bit better. Ughhh, I have so much anxiety that I am not sure what to do about it! It is not the bad anxiety. Like energy that is keeping me up at night even though I am dead beat tired. And mornings? Totally opposite. Very hard time waking up! Will this get better?

Why do people want something that they can't have?

Why, why, why, why, why, why, why, why, why & why?

OK I had to get that out! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Ali~

I was thinking that maybe Randy has bi-polar??

His moods change from a very scary angry to a happy go lucky in minutes. He was ripping into me, I mean screaming at me over something so stupid. Then he was trying to kiss me and act as if nothing happened. Or course I backed away. I haven't been affectionate towards him since December. But a friend of mine pointed that out and I am really starting to wonder.

Please if anyone is reading this, does anyone have any info on this? This is really scaring me.

Ali~

Ali,

I can help with this. I don't think this is bi-polar. It definitely is like a Jeykll & Hyde thing. However, this sounds more abusive and a control issue than any medical. For your information I've given you links for symptoms of emotional abuse and bi-polar disorder. Also having survived an abusive childhood, my father used make me and the family a TBone steak and mushroom dinner after EVERY TIME he attacked me because he knew it was my favourite and then say, "Don't ever say I don't do anything for you". Although it's still one of my favourites, I have a hard time eating it when I hear his voice in my head. So I can understand why you would back away from him. It's not exactly endearing or a deposit into the love bank when it's paired with that kind of behaviour. It's sounds like his way of rationalizing his behaviour to himself, to "make up" for treating you badly as if it's supposed to make everything OK.

When did this happen?

<small>[ February 21, 2005, 09:13 AM: Message edited by: SAB ]</small>

Hi SAB,

Well this is how it started. Yesterday, I was feeding the kids breakfast. They love powered doughnuts. So for a treat, I had bought them some. I walked away then I heard my youngest screaming that our dog jumped on the counter and ate them. The dog is still very puppy. So I went in there are corrected him. I don't believe in hitting a dog. I have learned ways to teach animals with positive reinforcement. So Randy heard what I was doing and he came down with this look on his face that was ready to kill. I said to him "I already corrected him and he is now in his corner." "Leave him alone!" He doesn't like the way "I" train the dog because there is very little physicalness involved. So I went back to what ever I was doing only to hear Randy sneak in the kitchen with the doughnuts case about to hit him with it and I told him to leave the dog alone that I already took care of it. I got in between him and the dog and he got very upset. Ended up in a screaming match. I will not tolerate hitting any animals. OK unless it is a little slap on the butt. But I think you know what I am getting at. I got so upset with him. The kids became afraid. And what I am seeing is that the kids are beating up the poor dog. And my little one is throwing things at the poor cat. Randy never did anything wrong to the cat. Thank God! Be he lacks patience. And when you have a puppy? The two don't mix! I mean how stupid was that? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> So that is what happened. Very frustrating that he didn't trust me and my judgement.

Yes, he is a good game player. Very manipulative. He will project things onto you and make it seem like everything is your fault. Oh he is very controling. Why didn't I see this years ago? That is why I am soo afraid to get involved again. Would I over analyze every action? Or would I be blind to it? I have a lot to offer a person, so I would hate to be alone because of my fear. I know I am not ready but I am working on myself to prepare for my future.

Thanks SAB, I will check out that link!

Ali~ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ February 21, 2005, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: Ali88 ]</small>

There is NEVER an excuse for violence EVER! I thought that was what was going on. I can tell those signs miles away. A grown man against a puppy?...I'm going to be sick <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> . What a fine example he's setting for the kids (sarcastic). There's no bi-polar here. By deliberately sneaking into the kitchen after you left to hit the dog, there's only a man who let's his behaviour get out of control and then tries to "make up" so that everything is alright again. Stupid? Yes! He KNOWS exactly what he's doing. Bi-polars do not. He doesn't want anyone telling him what to do or not to do, including you. "I can do whatever I want and it's OK." He doesn't believe consequences and rules apply to him. That's why he's so affectionate afterwards. There is only abusive behaviour here. If anything, I can see Narcissistic Personality Disorder tendencies here.

Talking about training animals...anybody have a cattleprod I can use on Randy? Sorry. On second thought <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> , that's too good for him...

My H has narcissistic tendencies as well. This is his attitude towards rationalizing going into debt over the years and and my overall view of being "supermom":

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whatever they may be doing, in their own view, they are the star, and they give the impression that they are bearing heroic responsibility for their family or department or company, that they have to take care of everything because their spouses or co-workers are undependable, uncooperative, or otherwise unfit. They ignore or denigrate the abilities and contributions of others and complain that they receive no help at all; they may inspire your sympathy or admiration for their stoicism in the face of hardship or unstinting self-sacrifice for the good of (undeserving) others. But this everyday grandiosity is an aspect of narcissism that you may never catch on to unless you visit the narcissist's home or workplace and see for yourself that others are involved and are pulling their share of the load and, more often than not, are also pulling the narcissist's share as well.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ February 22, 2005, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: SAB ]</small>

LOL!

He doesn't beat the crap out of the dog but he has to show him who is boss? A very controling issue. Yes, he was going to hit him with the packaging. Whoops I'llbe back posting... The Today show is having Austism on.

Ali~