I have a real problem with this whole thread.<BR>I am the betrayed!!! I will not take any responsibility WHATSOEVER for what my husband did! This is about his character flaw NOT me and how I could have been a better wife!! I had NO CLUE that my great husband and the great father to my daughter was having an affair for 2 years out of our 5 year marriage! We were not fighting un-usually we have a 3 year old daughter (was 1 when affair started) that I was TAKING CARE OF while he was cheating with OW who is 12 years younger that still lives with her parents! I am hurting so badly with all of this deceit! I am a good looking woman that could have cheated many times over but never ever considered it not for a second.....would have never jeopardized my family.......SO PLEASE!!!!!! Being a good person making good character choices MEANS A HE!L of a lot to me!!! I REFUSE TO TAKE responsibility for my H very poor choices. I am barely hanging on as it is feeling like I am betraying myself for trying to forgive my husband and make my family work. After discovery my H begged me to forgive him and work it out I agreed and we went to therapy that was Aug....I found out in Oct that he had been seeing her off and on (during therapy and during his begging and pleading for me to believe in him again)since Sept. He chilled for 1 month then went back to lies....begging and pleading again to not leave him and to believe him that he will never do anything again to mess us up says he (can't function without me).....and on and on....It's bad enough that I am completely choking on this hurt, that I have to get on this support system and read that I am in some way to take some of the blame to what has happen in this relationship---in my case that is BS...We were living a good life before he indulged his self with this very selfish acts. <BR>I must say this forum helps me a great deal thanks to all who post here I feel like I know all of you. <BR>God please help this hurt subside! <p>[This message has been edited by KWAS (edited December 29, 1999).]

There is a difference between taking the blame for the affair and taking accountability for your own life and what you are going to do about living it.<P>I take no blame for my H's affair, but boy am I willing to explore whatever it takes to improve our future and minimize whatever oversights and mistakes we both made in the past.<P>I can only control what I do and I can not control the outcome.<P>Knowing I don't have to wait for anybody to do anything to start changing myself...not that I'm flawed, but that I can improve...is very empowering.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Faith Hope and Love, <BR>I agree that I should take accountability for my own life. I am all for that. I am currently in the process of soul searching now. Somedays I can see a little clearer to making this relationship work and other days I think I want a fresh start without all this bitterness. How long will it be that I stop fantacising about what life would be like without him? I truly wanted to leave my h and start over but....my daughter is so very attached to him, he is not an ordinary father he is exceptional in that department and that means a lot to me. She is so well-balanced because of how we parent her, I am so proud of how she is coming up. So my question to you is how long before my heart stops breaking and the fear of betrayel again? And will I ever know why this happened in the first place? I want to know Why? would someone hurt another person this way? what gives people the right to do this to someone (the person they are supposed to honor)? I could have handled it if he would have been honest and left..but a two year whole other life is so hard.<p>[This message has been edited by KWAS (edited December 29, 1999).]

KWAS,<P>One of the things you will learn if you read any of the "saving your marriage" type books (as opposed to the "get rid of the dirtbag and move on" type books) is that the only person you can change is yourself. That is the point of MB concepts, Michele Weiner-Davis's "Divorce Busting" concepts, and just about any other book you will read that advocates a plan to stay with your spouse and rebuild your marriage. Change yourself.<P>Unfortunately, I think that it is a rare marriage that does not have some kind of problem - you may never suspect a problem if no one talks about it. For example, what if a husband's most intense fantasy involved trying some less traditional love-making techniques - but he had overheard his wife once telling a friend that she thought that sexual fantasies were stupid and childish. Do you think he would then tell her about his? And, since many/most men express their affection sexually, he could perceive this as a major stumbling block in the relationship. Now, he has to hide the fact that he has any fantasies ... he becomes disgruntled, whether or not it is justified! And next thing you know, some woman comes along and strokes his ego ... makes him feel special. Then, she lets him know that she is interested. He resists ... then she tells him one of her sexual fantasies (which probably involves him). Voila! He's hooked!<P>This, I believe, is one of the reasons why Dr. Harley talks of 100% honesty. If both partners are 100% honest with each other - about sex and sexual fantasies as well as all other aspects of their relationship, then this secret longing could never have occurred.<P>The point of "being right is the booby prize" is that if you are insistent on being right in an argument, all you will have at the end of that argument is the knowledge that you are right... You could very well lose EVERYTHING else. Ask me, I know from experience. I can't tell you what I would give to have my husband say to me the words yours has said to you...<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I believe in miracles...<P>

KWAS,<BR>Getting divorced and starting with someone new is no guarantee that you won't be betrayed again. Next time, it may not be a sexual betrayal. Maybe they'll hit you or your daughter, maybe they'll spend all your money and go bankrupt, maybe, as you say, they'll just "be honest and leave" you and your daughter.

Please don't tell me how thankful I should feel that my husband is willing to stay and work it out. Either way is a gamble! and either way is equally as hard. In fact sometimes I feel that my situation is harder because there was no split...leaving would seem easier, it's the staying and working on the problems that takes so much out of me. I am capable of being on my own so I would not run on out there to find another as was stated that I could have a worse life if I left. A don't want to make my decisions based on fear of the unknown out there. I understand the basic concepts and I have read the Michelle Weiner Divorce busting, I read MB daily to become stronger in my sense of self and my future. Through this I have learned more about me than I ever knew, though I am not thanking my H for the enlightment. As far as sexual, I was the one who heard "no" all the time. I was the one with the higher sex drive. I have to live everyday when I lay my head down to go to sleep that he wanted her not me. He told me no and "wanted her so much" that's what she told me. He of course says this is not true...but I am so crushed that I was so willing and he did not prefer me????? Just makes me want to have an affair just to be swept off my feet and feel that someone prefers me. I think of how he must have ached for her when I was aching for him. Makes me dizzy with grief. So he cannot validate his sexual actions because I was not willing for all....it was he that was not willing and me that did without the sexual fantacies. I am working this all out in my head struggling some days and doing good others. It is your experiances in dealing with the betrayed/betrayers and how you got through that I am interested in not lectures or guilt ridden one liners. Just plain "this is how I (you) handled the pain" and this is how we moved on.<BR>Thank you so much for your input. Terri I apreciate your candidness as this seems to be what we have in common.

KWAS:<P>You're harboring a great deal of resentment and anger that you need to let go of. Harley writes in Surviving an Affair that one of the biggest barriers to recovery is dealing with this resentment.<P>Would you be this angry at your husband if he had cancer and was dying---leaving you and your daughter to fend for yourselves? Probably not. While there was a concious "free-choice" component to your husband's affair, also realize that there was other contributing factors---the addictive nature of affairs isn't "psychobabble"---it's real, biochemical response. And it presents itself much like an addiction to chemical substance. And if it would help you, you should think of your husband as "insane" during this period. Sure---he hurt you deeply. But he's probably hurt himself worse.<P>Now, while you state that you had no clue that your husband was having an affair (neither did I know that my wife was), can you look at Harley's material on the "Four Rules for a Successful Marriage" and say that you were perfect? Or excellent?? You met all his needs, didn't lovebust, was completely honest, and spent the time with him??<P>And if you were able to have your husband answer those questions about you---and he replied that you didn't in certain areas, how would you react??? Would you thank him for that valuable piece of honest information (right response)? Or would you get angry with him, or defensive. <P>You're right---this will be hard on you regardless of which avenue you choose (marriage or divorce). There's a huge upside on choosing marriage, so I'd encourage you to do that. And as far as getting over your resentment and anger, I'd suggest that you start counseling with Steve Harley immediately. He will help you through this, and help you feel better with your choices. And he's a great choice if you want to save your marriage.

KWAS,<BR>I have come to the cnclusion that the only way for you to ensure that you are never betrayed again is not to be married. It is the only way that you can ensure that it will never happen again.<P>FHL was right about you being the best that you can be (my paraphrase.) However, I would say that we are all flawed because we are human beings who have been cursed because Adam didn't stop before eating fruit he was directed not to eat. Adam was weak as well as Eve. Now we all have to suffer the consequences until Jesus comes back.<P>I too am the betrayed, 8 times in 6+ years. However, I have to be the man that God wants me to be for her. He used her to meet a need that I had when we got married. This need was more n a spiritual level rather than a fleshly desire need to feel good. Now it is my turn to meet the spiritual need that my W has. She professes to know Jesus but can't understand why she is in such great pain and despair. When she truly develops the personal relationship with Jesus that she wants to have with OM then her eyes will open to see that He has used me from the very beginning to show her the love that she seeks. There is no greater love than the love of God.<P>The key to me getting through all this has been much study of His word, prayer, and my focusing on what He wants me to learn from the ordeal. I have learned that He does not want me to be selfish like my W, thus her actions. If her actions had been to please Him then none of this would have ever happened because she would have been able to see the outs that He presented her with each temptation that came about. No, I am not judging her. This is what the Bible says is so. Careful study helps you to see this.<P>I have come close to returning the pain on several occasions but did not fall prey to the deception. I still struggle with it because the pain is great. Especially now that she wrote me a letter say that she must move on. Because she has been through several other relationships where the relationship didn't last very long, she felt bad when the love was not returned. Our relationship is the longest she has ever had. My enduring this pain is a testament to how much I love her as defined by God.<P>No, I am not being a martyr. I just know what it is like to need someone to be there for you even when you are making really bad decisions. She needs someone to be there for her. I will stay married to her as long as she stays.<P>I FEEL YOUR PAIN. MONDO HUG!!!!!!!!!!!!<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Wow! What can I say to the last two posts...other than thank you for the advise? I wonder if emotional damage is different for a man as for a woman...just wondering. You both sound so grounded and wise, yet by reading both profiles and some posts from the past your cases are extreme...GEEZ how did you cope in the beginning? Help me cope better. Is there something in the concepts that I can give my husband for rebuilding trust, he get's impatient with me when I let my lack of trust show then I get angry that he has the nerve to be impatient it's been a vicious circle. I am trying to deal with my mouth saying what I feel....it just keeps talking, when my husband wants to move on. I'm telling you this is the hardest thing I have ever dealt with and I have had a doozy of a life to say the least so it's not hard from being sheltered it's hard because I never trusted anyone like I trusted him. <P>I am so impressed in how you coped with all your feelings to end up so wonderfully helpful in your posts to MB members...WOW

K<BR>Yes you are right I am literally choking on anger and resentment, even to the point of sometimes disabling my thoughts. So you say let go...well please tell me how.

KWAS, I was responding to your words regarding the Being Right post - and I was offering the only advice I knew how to at that point. The sexual issues example is drawn from what I suspect to be part of the "draw" the OW has for my H - not aimed "at" you. If you read my profile, you'll see that I have been in Plan A for 14 months.<P>Believe me, it is NOT easier when there is a split. Any self-respecting, effective marriage counselor NEVER recommends trial or any kind of separation except as a complete last resort. Being around one another on a day to day basis and BOTH spouses working with whatever tools they choose (together) to work with is what will eventually bring peace, harmony and love back into your relationship. When the betrayer leaves the home, it is MUCH harder to work on any kind of marital reconciliation. How effective can Plan A be if the betraying spouse sees the OW 7 days a week and sleeps with her every night and may talk with the hurt spouse 1 or 2 times a week? It is STILL effective, but it sure takes a lot longer!<P>Unfortunately, there are many of us who will give voice to our desire to be in your position at this point. That doesn't mean we think you are "lucky" - we just believe that you have a better chance to work on your relationship than we who are still married pretty much in name only...<P>As for releasing the resentment... well, I don't know that there is any kind of "magic formula" or even a tried and true method to that. I have done it by 1) recognising my depression and getting treatment for it; 2) recognising my contribution to our marital difficulties (NOT responsibility for the affair); 3) Just DOING it. Sorry I can't be more helpful with this one.<P>I wish you the best - only you can decide if your marriage is worth the hard work it will take on your part to salvage it. My take is that I married "for better or worse" and this sure is about as "worse" as it gets!<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I believe in miracles...<P>

KWAS,<P>I am not here to rain on the parade. I have no profile, if you want to learn about me, read my posts, search them all the way back. I too, am grounded. My W left me 8 months ago, I have been nothing but used before and since then. There are people out there that don't share my values, I married one. Don't give up on your H because of anger, if you do, do it because it is right for you. I did. One thing that this site teaches you is to give it your all, if that fails, you can move on successfuly. I am not a "success" story, but it's not because I didn't try. I will say don't give up who you are in the proccess, that's not what it's all about.<P>Eric32

KWAS,<BR>I'm sorry if I offended you, or at the least, was not helpful. I tend to be blunt, sometimes too much so. Unfortunately, I was not able to help my ex-H through his hurt and anger, so perhaps I can't be of much help to you there either. What I hoped for you is that you will stay in your marriage long enough for those feelings to subside. My first husband slept with over 20 women during our marriage, so I do know what it is like. <P><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited December 30, 1999).]

KWAS:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Is there something in the concepts that I can give my husband for rebuilding trust, he get's impatient with me when I let my lack of trust show then I get angry that he has the nerve to be impatient it's been a vicious circle.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think it's great that you've identified this "spiral of doom" for your marriage. What you need now is the tools to break the cycle.<P>To answer your first question: how to have your husband rebuild trust. What you need to do is decide WHAT behaviors he must exhibit for you to feel like you trust him. If that means that he gives you all his voice-mail and e-mail passwords, checks with you every hour of the day... whatever---you must ASK him (respectfully) for these. Explain to him that it's going to help you trust him. Then use the Policy of Joint Agreement to decide if all these are acceptable to your husband (he needs to have a choice). If they're not, he should state why. And come up with alternative solutions. Brainstorm until you've reached a "win-win" compromise.<P>And then, every time your husband exhibits thoughtful, trustworthy behavior, THANK HIM, especially in ways that are meaningful for him. This positive reinforcement will build these behaviors to the point at which they're second-nature. If he fails, gently let him know (no lovebusters), and let him know how you feel (you can feel angry, but you don't use angry outbursts to express it...).<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I am trying to deal with my mouth saying what I feel....it just keeps talking, when my husband wants to move on. I'm telling you this is the hardest thing I have ever dealt with and I have had a doozy of a life to say the least so it's not hard from being sheltered it's hard because I never trusted anyone like I trusted him. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The sad fact is that when you love someone deeply, you "give" them the capacity to hurt you deeply as well. And you also can take for granted that "love" from another person, and exhibit behaviors towards them that you would never dream of doing to someone on the street.<P>One behavior that I learned, was to not say or do anything until I internally answered the question:<P>"How will this make my spouse feel...". <P>In other words, "think before speaking". Easy concept, but very difficult to learn. When I went on an antidepressant (which I would suggest for investigate for yourself---mine was Welbutrin), I found the medication gave me more patience or "internal time" to answer that question. And I learned this behavior, and it's carried over since I went off medication (nearly a year ago).<P>You need to eliminate your lovebusters, especially angry outbursts. As terri and others have said, a marriage isn't about being right. It's not about justice. Have you been untreated unfairly??? You bet. Does it hurt more than anything??? Absolutely. Will punishing your husband help??? Not one bit.<P>You need to rebuild love. You can only directly work on yourself, so your first task is to eliminate these lovebusters. Harley's books "Lovebusters" and "Give and Take" are excellent manuals for the first steps of this, but I'd really suggest that you talk to Steve Harley for a session or two; he may help you focus on specific techniques to help you alleviate your anger. Anger will drive your husband away---it nearly did it to my wife (pre-affair). Once I learned of the affair, and the damage that my behaviors had done to our marriage, I was able to get it under control. And with Steve's help, it was an amazingly quick process.<P>Good luck

KWAS,<BR>K is right as long as they are willing to go along with the plan. I wanted to do all the things that K suggests but was unable to because those were LBs form my W.<P>However, I have earnestly tried to apply all the principles that I have learned here. I just started posting this year during affair #8. Granted I have made some progress and some regresses as well. I hang in there because I have her best interest at heart.<P>I got through the first 7 affiars with much prayer and study of His word. Had I not taken that route, I would have been much more bitter than I am now which I finally realized last night that I have been a real BUTT at least since May in a major, major way. <P>I have had to learn to read her body language and voice tone to truly understand what she is trying to say. 7% of communication is in the words, the other 93% is in the nonverbals. I have gotten much better at reading those nonverbals. I guess that is how I kept making corrections. However, now I want the corrections to be permanent (I am not saying that I didn't want them permanent before.) It is hard when you are not told what your spouse wants. I hae gotten that I am supposed to know. I will never know unless you tell me in such a way that it makes sense to me. Just because it makes sense to you when you say it does not say that it makes sense to the person you told.<P>I have found that if your spouse does something you like then let them know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you really liked it. This goes bak to K's statement of thanking your spouse for doing those things that please you. My W and I discussed this last night, she distinctly remembers saying thank you for those things that I did that pleased her. Yes, she did but I had to pull teeth to get to those things. She has never openly come out and said that I wuld like for you to do this for me with no strings attached.<P>The balancing act is to get the right mix of attention to every aspect of your life. I have found that her actions request that she get 100% of my attention when she wants it when there is a crisis going on that will effect my ability to do so. I am actively work to make everything else take care of itself so that I can be at her beckon call when she desires the 100% of my attention.<P>It is hard but it can be done with a little perserverence and much prayer.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Thank you for your replies. I have learned so much from your posts, I would very much like to keep in touch with K and Rob as you are just like medicine for me, what you are saying is hitting the spot. I hope that I will get to the point of helping people like ya'll do. I wonder if you are regular members....I do not want to lose touch with the help you are providing me. K you just logged on and answered so many of my questions you do not know how much it means to me to be enlightened in the right ways. I know I have a lot of work to do on myself and a lot of my decisions are based on my own make up of life while growing up. I have always been so strong and independent it is very easy for me to walk away and not bother with who I might think as a loser...I have the ability to cut people completely out of my life and not look back. I know this is not good and this will be the first time in my life that I will accomplish this level of forgiveness. I had a pretty rough life growing up and was pretty much abandoned by my father at 2 yrs old. So I learned early on to not believe in people just myself and my children. When my beloved husband who I held so far up on a pedestal did this to me it brought so many things to the surface that was never dealt with. That's what I meant when I said I learned so much about my self through all of this But.....again I not thanking anyone for this nightmare, just trying to change my coping mechanism to a more forgiving mode. And with all that said: in the back of my mind I still feel that I am crazy for giving this man another chance....see I told you I have a lot of work to do...I feel fortunate to have found MB and ya'll.<BR>Terri thanks for the reality punches.

Woops sent two many times<p>[This message has been edited by KWAS (edited December 30, 1999).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>in the back of my mind I still feel that I am crazy for giving this man another chance...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Of course you do---it's a natural reaction to the pain that you're dealing with.<P>If you can focus on trying to live your marriage by the "Four Rules", and get your husband to do the same (either by asking or by leading by example), you will pretty much be guaranteed a terrific marriage. Running will not solve anything; it never does. And it serves as a powerful (and negative) model for children to learn, as you've already experienced.<P>I'll urge you to talk with Steve Harley---he's the source. I counseled with Steve for over a year, and he's really terrific. I've conned several people here into trying him, and they've all had very good experiences. While I'm happy to give you my take on your situation, if I were you, I'd go to the pro...<P>

KWAS,<P>You sound so much like my ex. He too felt neglected and abandoned by his father. One of his biggest emotional needs was time together with me. He also said that if I ever cheated on him, he'd leave me. That still didn't keep me from doing what I did. Everyday I regret what I did and wish he had given me a second chance, but such is not the case. He too was the "unforgiving" type and also had no problems cutting people out of his life. Even if you decide you can't forgive your husband, the efforts you are making to be more forgiving, in general, can only help you. That is what Harley's methods are all about. Helping you to be the best person you can be, which not only has the potential to restore your marriage to something better than you ever thought possible, but also increases the likelihood of success in future relationships if your marriage does end. You don't need to listen to me,though. You might even find that my advice, being the betrayer and all, is somewhat repulsive to you. K and rob are two of the kindest, most forgiving people I've ever come across and probably kinder to your ears than me Just know that I (and other betrayers here) care about your pain too.

__________________________________________<BR>You don't need to listen to me,though. You might even find that my advice, being the betrayer and all, is somewhat repulsive to you._<BR>________________________________________<P>No that's not true, I realize we are not all perfect and we all make mistakes and bad decisions, thanks for your input it is appreciated. I know this is my own task in life (forgiveness) and I plan on hitting the task head on, sometimes I stumble no doubt and get a bad case of stinkin' thinkin' but then I get up running again back -- to my goals. I do not seek for support enough!! just so happen yesterday I posted and was fortunate enough to hear from all who posted to me. I am going to give this every thing I have. Please remind me of this when I hit bottom again....