Ok, I really need advice on this one. I was at home with W and kids when OM calls. Then she talks to him with me standing right there in front of her cooking dinner!!!! Then she gets upset with me for being upset!!! Granted it wasn't a pleasent converstaion (she was mad at him for breaking a date), but c'mon already!! I was just beginning to think we were making some progress, then this! I am thinking of going into Plan B now, but I've only been doing Plan A for a short while (D-day was 8/2/02). This one really hurt. We had a decent conversation afterwards, and she cried about how sorry she was (for hurting me, not for A), and I was I believe, very calm about it. But I just don't think I can take any more of thisl. I know I've seen many BS's work Plan A for a year or more, but I don't think my heart can take that long. That was a huge LB for me. She still insists she needs to date both of us to see what she wants, and admits that she is using both of us but seems ok with it. The only positive I can see is that she seems truly remousefull for hurting me. Any BS's or WS's with any wise words? I am planning my Plan B letter even now.

MTD,
It's hard to give you advice. Your W and mine sound a lot alike. Lots of remorse, etc., but no real change in action--and not enough empathy to do what is right and treat you like a human being. I just went to Plan B because I got fed up with all talk no action, and I'm kind of sorry I didn't do it sooner. I have become really ambivalent about the possibility of reconciling. So I would say, ask yourself a few questions: what is best for your own well-being? are you sure you want to reconcile? if so, how much of Plan A can you take before your "bank account" dwindles.

Two things, mtd...

One, get call block on your home phone and block the OM's number. I did that, but I don't think the OM has the cojones to call here anyway.

Two, this is all pretty fresh to you, so please consider going to your doctor and getting on some mild anti-depressants. They will help you deal with these difficult feelings in a rational manner.

Read read read!

ST

First of all....I don't know your whole story as I don't come over to this part of the message boards that often......but......

One of the things that gets me is the fact that a WS says that they need to date BOTH the OP and the S (spouse) to see what they want.

HELLO!!!!!

By doing this you are enabeling her relationship with the OM.

Of course she is ok with it....she's getting her cake and eating it too....and will continue to do so until either YOU or the OM take yourselves out of the picture.

Mind you it's not a fix for the M.....but it eases up the BS's pain. I myself did not go into a full blown Plan B.....but applied it in my own way.

Your W was being very disrespectful of your feelings to take that call from the OM. She should have told him to call back at a better time....preferably when you were not there.

Sometimes as a BS we have to finally make that decision to stand up for ourselves and say....I'm not going to let you do this to me anymore. It is our decision afterall.....it's proven that our WS's will do whatever WE allow them to do to us.

Thanks for the advice. I wrote my Plan B letter but I'm not sure if I'm quite ready to give it to her. I like your idea MissPriss, I think I will continue with my seperation for now and detatch myself from the situation a little. Try and force the OM to fulfill more of her needs while he's still in his M. If possible MP, could you tell me a little about how you applied Plan B? Maybe I could apply my own version.

m_t_d,

Having 3 daughters, I couldn't go to Plan B as there was ALWAYS something my H and I needed to talk about......so I couldn't completely avoid him. (though at the time I wanted to)

My H and I seperated 3 times.....not by MY choice though. The last time he left I decided that I wouldn't call him about anything.....unless I absolutely had to.
For the first 6 weeks I only called to ask him ?'s about the bills...and kept the conversation to a minimum.....no relationship talk at all.

If one of our daughters wanted to talk to him....I dialed the phone # but handed the phone to them before he answered and let them talk or leave a message.

I let him see the girls whenever he wanted....at our house....but left him alone with the girls. Always made sure that I was busy with something else. He is their father afterall and I didn't want to deny him the time with his daughters no matter what he had done to me......but avoided him at all costs.

All this was very hard to do at first.....as the first 2 times that he had left I had begged and pleaded constantly for him to come home and this and that.....I'm sure that was very attractive. NOT!

I guess you could say that I used the Tough Love approach rather than a modified Plan B.....I think that Plan B is almost impossible when you have children.

After 6 weeks of being seperated and avoiding my H....who was still involved with the OW....he started calling me more....talking about nothing really....just calling alot.

I was ready to move on with or without him. I was accepting it.....wish I had done it sooner.

It was so much easier to work on myself when I wasn't concentrating on him and what he was doing or how he was feeling....or even what choice he was going to make.

Anyway.....I got so over that I actually met someone and went out on a date......I think that was a turning point. (I'm in no way saying you should do this)

The day of the date my H called me 17 times from 4:30 a.m. to 5:00 p.m........on my cell phone. He was jelous. He couldn't sit down and couldn't work.....and all of this in front of the OW.

He had been telling me for 6 weeks to go find someone.....and when I did....he couldn't handle it.

After this.....before this actually...his relationship with the OW was already bad....petty arguments....the OW acting like a spoiled child and ranting about stupid things.

My H starting inviting me to do things with him and the girls on his time with them....before he wouldn't as to not raise their hopes. He started inviting to his place for the whole weekend.

While there one weekend the OW called and got mad because he wouldn't bring the girls to her small sons B-day party....even told him that if he didn't want them around her to drop them off somewhere so he could come alone......some nerve.

My H was fed up with her and they ended their relationship mutually 1 week later.

He had been telling me that he was going to end it with her.....and I had told him that I would believe it when I saw it.........I was not pressuring him to be with me at all at this time....I was actually turning him down on some of his invitiations.

Anyway.....to make my very long story short.....the A ended mutually....and within 2 weeks my H was talking about us getting back together and how happy we could be and all that.......and we are.

It took alot of hard work on his part to convince me that it wouldn't happen again and that the OW was completely out of the picture.

Sorry this is so long......but my story is so long with ALOT of twists and turns. Hope that helps.

Sorry Miss Priss, I just read your post. NO it was not too long, it was actually very insightful. I have been doing just that, though almost at the same time my WW began calling me more often. I know it is still too early to believe she is coming out of the fog completely, but it is nice to see her head pop out every now and then. And I have actually turned her down once (though it was because I had prior engagement), but it was nice to hear her disapointment. Not to hurt her, but to know she really wanted to spend time with me. I am glad to know that things are going well for you and I hope my story has a similar ending. Thanks again MP!!!

^

MTD,

Hi, this is C from P's thread at JFO. (The really long one) Generally, I don't intrude into other's threads, but since I saw you posted over there I thought I would read this.

There is no such thing as a modified Plan B. It's like being pregnant or honest, it either is or it's not.

Plan A is a strategy to separate the spouse from the lover. To show that you acknowledge your part in the breakdown of the marriage, and to demonstrate your willingness to be the husband your wife has always wanted. That you can and will avoid LBers and learn to meet her needs.

Nothing else. Plan A cannot and will not restore your marriage while your wife is involved with another man.

You should do Plan A for as long as you can remain pleasant and avoid LBers. But you also need to be radically honest about how badly her affair is affecting you. EVERY time she sees or speaks with OM, you should tell her that it is the worst pain you have ever experienced, that she is tearing your heart apart.

When you find that you are becoming disrespectful.... unable to tell her how you feel without throwing in a few..."your so selfish," or when you find that your feelings for her are lessening, or when you begin to exhibit symptoms of stress (change in apetite, sleep patterns, difficulty concentrating) then it is time to go to Plan B.

Plan B is risky. At first it will push the WS into the arms of the lover. And it's difficult. You will definitely struggle with the overwhelming desire for just a little contact.

Plan B is not about teaching the WS a lesson or forcing her to "wake up." It's sole purpose is to protect you from further pain, from real health risks due to the stress, and of course from further trashing of your LBnk.

The hoped for side effect is that when the A ends, and nearly all do, she will recognize the good work you did in your Plan A, and want to reconcile. That doesn't mean Plan A needs to go on forever. Frankly, it can be done in a letter if the pain is so great that you can't take it. Men generally can hang on in Plan A longer than women. Most women can't do a good Plan A for more than a couple or weeks.

As I said, nearly all affairs end. If you haven't started telling family and friends, you might want to. Opinion is divided on this, but Willard Harley is a STRONG advocate of telling, and I agree. Tell your parents, her parents, your church leader, anyone who would be an advocate for you and your marriage. Affairs don't handle the light of day very well. They exist in a fantasy land of secrecy.

In Plan B, which is absolutely brilliant BTW, the idea is that now she must get all her needs met by OM. Right now, it's a great deal for her. You meet some needs, he meets some needs. Quite the racket. When you cease to meet the needs you are, it will all fall on his shoulders. He cannot possibly measure up.

You mention how she "needs to date you both," (sorry but the time for that was before she said "I do" ) and I think she probably tells you how she would miss him. Well, imagine how she will miss YOU, when you are not there. This OM can NEVER be the parent of her children. He is living in a fantasy land with HER. Introduce children to that mix and he isn't going to look so wonderful.

As she has doubts, and expresses them to OM, you can bet the arguments will ensue. Withdrawals from the LBnk will be in order. The stress of being full time in the real world is a big wake up call to an affair.

Affairs continue often times for as long as the BS allows. Which is not to say that you are at fault. But the two biggest mistakes that are made are:

1. Not being honest about how much her affair is hurting you. Yes, she will be upset and possibly even angry to hear that. But Honesty is NOT a LBer. No matter how she reacts. To be dishonest is however a LBer.

2. Delaying Plan B too long, I see over and over again how BS's wait until they virtually hate the WS before going to Plan B. By then they've fallen into some strong lovebusting patterns of anger and especially disrespect. And since they have not only lost their love for the WS but their LBnk is far in the red, they only want to end the M rather than do the work of recovery when the A ends.

TMD, I don't know your whole story, but the pattern is very familiar. I hope this helps. If you have other things I can help you with, I'm always found at JFO, just ring.

Blessings,

Cerri

---------
5 years intensive study MB principals
Currently enrolled in MB coaching program
I can name chaper and verse for any MB question you have <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ September 02, 2002, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: cerri ]</small>

cerri,

While I respect your opinion.....I do not agree with it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> There is no such thing as a modified Plan B. It's like being pregnant or honest, it either is or it's not.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If EVERYONE here were to do Plan B exactly the same way..or by the book..then we would have to assume that every situation is exactly the same....and we know that is not the case.

Every situation is unique....as is every person.

I've been here for well over a year now and have seen modified versions of all of the MB Principles. I've modified some of the Principles myself....so that they worked for me.

I disagree with this also.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Plan A is a strategy to separate the spouse from the lover. To show that you acknowledge your part in the breakdown of the marriage, and to demonstrate your willingness to be the husband your wife has always wanted. That you can and will avoid LBers and learn to meet her needs.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I never once thought of Plan A as a strategy to seperate my H from the OW. As most all of us know.....the BS has no control over seperating the 2....since we have no control over anyone other than ourselves. I don't think the word strategy has any place in Plan A. It almost makes it sound as if one is planning the way they will get their WS back.....like a game.

I saw Plan A as a way for me to work on myself....once I realized my part in the destruction of my marriage.

Plan A was me working on me.....since I can change no one but me.

To say that one needs to show willingness to the WS that they can be the W or H that the WS always wanted really gets me too.

How about the fact that the WS rarely ever tells the H or W exactly what they want in a spouse. We do not know these things unless we are told about them.

What about the W or H that the BS wants?
I don't agree with the concept of the BS becoming a doormat while waiting for the WS to "make up their mind".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As I said, nearly all affairs end. If you haven't started telling family and friends, you might want to. Opinion is divided on this, but Willard Harley is a STRONG advocate of telling, and I agree. Tell your parents, her parents, your church leader, anyone who would be an advocate for you and your marriage. Affairs don't handle the light of day very well. They exist in a fantasy land of secrecy.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Telling is often the biggest LB.
And to say tell those that would be an advocate for your marriage.....seems like more strategy to me. Like trying to get all these people on your side before the game ends.

This is not a game....and only the H and the W can decide on reconsiliation...and only they can make it work. Telling other will help with being able to talk about it.....but it won't get the marriage back on track.....and often times will backfire and be a HUGE LB.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Affairs continue often times for as long as the BS allows. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The BS is not allowing the affair to continue.....just as we had no control over the beginning of the affair....we have no control over the ending.

The only thing that the BS does is to choose to stay through the duration of the affair.....or end the marriage.

The Harley's say that the affair has to die a natural death.....that means that the BS cannot push it to end....that would be a selfish demand.

The affair has to die on it's own...without any input from the BS. IF the BS pushes the WS to end the affair.....the most likely thing that will happen is that contact will eventually ensue again....and it will go on until it dies a natural death.....by one or both parties deciding not to persue the relationship.

Throughout this whole site things are modified....because the situations and the people are different.

It seems to me that you are saying that t_m_d should not modify anything he sees on this sight to possibly work better for him.....that he should stick to the basics.

Plan B is hard for people with children.......there is no way to take yourself out of the picture completely when children are involved....hence....a modified Plan B.

Quite fankly...some people are often too scared to go into Plan B......so they modify it....and sometimes it works.

Just as sometimes Plan A and B work....and sometimes they don't....depends on the situation and the people involved.

JMHO <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

MP,

While I respect your opinion.....I do not agree with it.[b]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> There is no such thing as a modified Plan B. It's like being pregnant or honest, it either is or it's not.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If EVERYONE here were to do Plan B exactly the same way..or by the book..then we would have to assume that every situation is exactly the same....and we know that is not the case.

[b]Every situation is unique....as is every person.

This is a direct quote from Dr. Harley, " There is no such thing as a modified Plan B." Heard it many times, almost weekly on his radio show. You can get it Mondays and Thursdays 1pm CT, click on the link above.

I've been here for well over a year now and have seen modified versions of all of the MB Principles. I've modified some of the Principles myself....so that they worked for me.

Five years intensive study MB program. One weekend, One coaching seminar, work with Dr. Harley with my own cases/clients. While I agree that some things must be fitted to the individual and to the case, the principles are not really modifiable, if you still want to call them MB.

I disagree with this also.[b]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Plan A is a strategy to separate the spouse from the lover. To show that you acknowledge your part in the breakdown of the marriage, and to demonstrate your willingness to be the husband your wife has always wanted. That you can and will avoid LBers and learn to meet her needs.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">[b]I never once thought of Plan A as a strategy to seperate my H from the OW. As most all of us know.....the BS has no control over seperating the 2....since we have no control over anyone other than ourselves. I don't think the word strategy has any place in Plan A. It almost makes it sound as if one is planning the way they will get their WS back.....like a game.

Also a direct quote from Harley. He says it every week on his show, with those words, and in person at his seminars.

I saw Plan A as a way for me to work on myself....once I realized my part in the destruction of my marriage.

Yes, of course it is, which is what I said.

To say that one needs to show willingness to the WS that they can be the W or H that the WS always wanted really gets me too.

Here's the Plan A/ Plan B link. Plan A / Plan B

I don't agree with the concept of the BS becoming a doormat while waiting for the WS to "make up their mind".

I never suggested becoming a doormat. But Plan A is nothing more than a willingness to end LBers and to meet needs in the hope that it will give the WS reason to rethink the A. To negotiate the end to the affair by showing that you are willing and able to do what needs to be done to address your part in the unhappiness of the marriage.

Telling is often the biggest LB.

And to say tell those that would be an advocate for your marriage.....seems like more strategy to me. Like trying to get all these people on your side before the game ends.

Telling is not a LBer. It's seeking help from friends and family who might be able to influence the WS to end the A. Is it a game? I don't know. But the BS is only doing what is necessary to piece back together what the BS has shattered by his/her cruel and thoughtless behavior.

Harely always advocates telling. Always.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Affairs continue often times for as long as the BS allows. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The BS is not allowing the affair to continue.....just as we had no control over the beginning of the affair....we have no control over the ending.

Also a direct quote from Harley. Sorry.

The Harley's say that the affair has to die a natural death.....that means that the BS cannot push it to end....that would be a selfish demand.

Have you had a chance tob listen to the show? Read SAA? Read this site entirely? Read HN/HN, G&T, FIL/SIL, LBers, been to a seminar or a weekend? Of course he says the BS should push it to end! A demand would be insisting. But implementing a strategy which makes the BS more attractive, by being honest about how the A hurts, and by eventually going to Plan B if needed are ways to either encourage the WS to end the A, or to preserve the LBnk of the BS in Plan B.

The affair has to die on it's own...without any input from the BS. IF the BS pushes the WS to end the affair.....the most likely thing that will happen is that contact will eventually ensue again....and it will go on until it dies a natural death.....by one or both parties deciding not to persue the relationship.

No, not at all. Yes most affairs die a natural death, but input from the BS is essential. The BS should be doing a real Plan A, which is to meet needs and to eliminate LBers. He or she should be honest about how much the A hurts EVERY TIME the WS sees the OP, he/she should tell others in their life, and even take other measures.

I once heard Harley advise a woman whose H was having an A with an illegal immigrant to call INS. She did. Affair over. The BS is not a passive observer at all.

Throughout this whole site things are modified....because the situations and the people are different.

You may be talking forum, but I assure you that if you talk to Willard Harely it is NOT modified. I wouldn't cite the info here at the forum as good MB advice most of the time.

It seems to me that you are saying that t_m_d should not modify anything he sees on this sight to possibly work better for him.....that he should stick to the basics.

Yep, that would be right.

Plan B is hard for people with children.......there is no way to take yourself out of the picture completely when children are involved....hence....a modified Plan B.

It's very difficult with children. I agree. But there are ways to have an intermediary, or in the worst case scenario to communicate about the children only with email. I still go for the intermediary if at all possible.

Quite fankly...some people are often too scared to go into Plan B......so they modify it....and sometimes it works.

Plan B is scary and it's risky. It should be done only when the energy reserves for Plan A are exhausted, or when it becomes apparent that the A is going to continue in spite of good Plan A work.

C

<small>[ September 03, 2002, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: cerri ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> There is no such thing as a modified Plan B. It's like being pregnant or honest, it either is or it's not.
------------------------------------------------

This is a direct quote from Dr. Harley, " There is no such thing as a modified Plan B." Heard it many times, almost weekly on his radio show. You can get it Mondays and Thursdays 1pm CT, click on the link above.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry to disagree......but look around this board for a while and you will see many modified Plan B's.....and it's working.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Five years intensive study MB program. One weekend, One coaching seminar, work with Dr. Harley with my own cases/clients. While I agree that some things must be fitted to the individual and to the case, the principles are not really modifiable, if you still want to call them MB. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've read what you've wrote about your intensive studies and all that.......several times.

Saying that things must be fitted to the individual and to the case is not modifying it?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I saw Plan A as a way for me to work on myself....once I realized my part in the destruction of my marriage.
-----------------------------------------------
Yes, of course it is, which is what I said. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you misunderstood what I meant in that statemenet.

I worked on myself for me.
Not to show my then WH that I was willing to be the W that HE wanted.......but to be the person I (stressing the word I) wanted to be.
Had I changed only to become the W that my then WH wanted then I would no longer be myself. One cannot live for someone else or to make someone else happy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I never suggested becoming a doormat. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No...you did not. But it is stated by Dr. Harley that the BS becomes somewhat of a doormat...and encourages it...during Plan A.

I have read this site...many times over..and HN/HN. I have not attended the seminars....have not had a counseling session with Steve or Jennifer.....nor have I heard the radio show.

I don't agree with someone becoming a doormat on purpose in the hopes of it working to get their spouse back.

I don't agree with someone putting up with emotional and verbal abuse in hopes of getting their spouse back.......but that is what some of the principals tell you to do. To ride it out in hopes that the WH will decide to end the affair and resume the marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes most affairs die a natural death, but input from the BS is essential. The BS should be doing a real Plan A, which is to meet needs and to eliminate LBers. He or she should be honest about how much the A hurts EVERY TIME the WS sees the OP, he/she should tell others in their life, and even take other measures.

I once heard Harley advise a woman whose H was having an A with an illegal immigrant to call INS. She did. Affair over. The BS is not a passive observer at all. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is it also possible that because of the BS's input that the WS will eventually come to resent the BS for their initial input. Just as the BS builds resentment for the affair itself?

I've seen it over and over....and not just on the MB site. The BS pushes for the affair to end....and the WS either ends up resenting the BS for it.....or contact never really ends.....because it's being forced to end.

All of the cases that I have seen where the affair ends a natural death....by the BS staying out of the ending of the affair have ended up with the 2 parties having the affair never contacting each other again. Whereas when it's pushed contact between the 2 lays low for a while....but ensues once they feel it's safe.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Telling is not a LBer. It's seeking help from friends and family who might be able to influence the WS to end the A. Is it a game? I don't know. But the BS is only doing what is necessary to piece back together what the BS has shattered by his/her cruel and thoughtless behavior. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To my understanding.....according to MB Principles....only the WS can determine what is an LB to him or her.

Again.....from cases that I have seen.....the BS that tells everyone that might "be on their side" usually backfires.
The WS accuses the BS of playing games....which is exactly what it looks like.

The purpose of telling should be only for support of yourself......not in trying to get them to convince the WS to end the affair. Only the WS or the OP can end the affair with long term results.

As for the lady that called INS.....of course the affair is over.....she's had to leave the country. Such is not the case in MOST affairs. Most BS's cannot get the 2 that far away from each other.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Throughout this whole site things are modified....because the situations and the people are different.
-------------------------------------------------
You may be talking forum, but I assure you that if you talk to Willard Harely it is NOT modified. I wouldn't cite the info here at the forum as good MB advice most of the time.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sure most of the posters here would really enjoy that comment.

Yes....I am talking abou the forum. Some of us cannot afford a session with Steve or Jennifer....cannot afford to go to the seminars....some of us cannot even afford to buy one of the books. So we come here to ask questions from those that are going through the same thing and those that have worked it out. Sometimes that is all that one can do.

But the advice from those that come here works.....even though it may not live up to your standards.

It worked for me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It seems to me that you are saying that t_m_d should not modify anything he sees on this sight to possibly work better for him.....that he should stick to the basics.

Yep, that would be right. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So he should follow everything by the book.....even if it isn't working for him?

Odd

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Plan B is hard for people with children.......there is no way to take yourself out of the picture completely when children are involved....hence....a modified Plan B.
-------------------------------------------------
It's very difficult with children. I agree. But there are ways to have an intermediary, or in the worst case scenario to communicate about the children only with email. I still go for the intermediary if at all possible.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry to say....but I've not seen one case where the parents NEVER have to actually talk to each other or see each other when there are children involved.

When my children are involved....I'd rather go to the source than wait for an email that may not be read for a while.

Some of us aren't lucky enough to have someone that is willing to be an intermediary...or are in a situation where both parties have access to an email account...hence having to modify Plan B to fit your situation.

There are cases where I think that absolute NO CONTACT at all is essential, such as physical and verbal abuse.

JMHO <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Cerri,

Well, I think you did MTD a great disservice by blasting a poster who, in my book, is probably one of the top five people on this site regarding MB program, coaching, etc. And worse yet, you blasted her because her very MB-aligned advice was not consistent with the majority population of posters on this website!

I know it&#8217;s not going to impress you, but I counseled with Jennifer Harley Chalmers from September 2000 through April 2002, and I can tell you that the Harleys are not proponents of modifying their Plans. They&#8217;ve developed these Plans to the point of knowing what is proven, and that&#8217;s what they recommend. To the letter. Even the no-contact letter taken verbatim out of SAA.

As far as telling the world about the affair, yep, that&#8217;s standard Harley method also. If wife hadn&#8217;t proceeded immediately to no-contact after D-day, Jennifer&#8217;s firm recommendation was to get OM&#8217;s wife, our friends, everyone involved by knowing exactly what was going on. Besides, the OM&#8217;s wife has a right to know too, doesn&#8217;t she? You&#8217;d be a proponent of &#8220;tell all&#8221; too if you were in her shoes now. &#8220;Tell all&#8221; is still the standing order to this day, but thankfully we&#8217;re in month nine of no contact, and on the way to recovery.

But it is stated by Dr. Harley that the BS becomes somewhat of a doormat...and encourages it...during Plan A.

Want to tell me what page of what book you read Harley state Plan A means being a doormat? I was in a Harley-coached Plan A for over a year, and never once was the &#8220;doormat&#8221; word used, or even implied.

I have read this site...many times over..and HN/HN. I have not attended the seminars....have not had a counseling session with Steve or Jennifer.....nor have I heard the radio show.

Yes, and I am sure you have good intentions. But slamming someone for having differing views than your own, and in this case, more informed knowledge because of extensive counseling with the Harleys and pursuing coach certification in their program&#8230; Well, I think you get the picture.

I won&#8217;t even comment on the rest of your justification responses of how right you are, the cases you have seen, etc. Cerri could quote you chapter and verse where you&#8217;re wrong, but it wouldn&#8217;t matter to you. Given your responses, I don&#8217;t think you&#8217;d recognize it if even Willard Harley himself posted on this site, and would likely blast his staunch, hard-line, no modification counsel. THAT is what is scary about this site &#8211; the fact that MB-consistent advice can be so staunchly contradicted by someone who doesn&#8217;t even own the library (I think Surviving an Affair is a mandatory read for anyone touched by an affair), much less spent any time being &#8220;coached&#8221; by a Harley.

In this case, your good intention of adamantly defending your own &#8220;JMHO&#8221; opinions drove away a poster who was trying to provide MTD with some truly valuable, MB-consistent advice.

P

First of all.....I highly doubt that I drove anyone away with just my opinion.

Second....I was not slamming anyone. Would you kindly show me where?

Third, I have SAA in my posession and have read it. Not that an explanation is needed but I was trying to edit my post to add it when our power went out......and forgot to come back and add it.

If anyone slammed anyone it was cerri for saying that the majority of the posts that people make on this site are not constructive.

I don't need anyone to tell me how right I am.....I don't believe I said that I was right....I was simply stating my opinion....which I am allowed to do. I did not break any rules within my post. I also don't think I was disagreeing with cerri personally....I was disagreeing with a principle...not a person.

The Harley's may not be proponents on modifying their Plans......but it does happen.

I don't need anyone to tell me chapters and verses either.......what makes her so right and me so wrong?

I never said she was wrong and I was right.

I'm talking about different things working for different people. Even the Harley's will admit that their Principles aren't going to work for everyone.

My whole point was that telling t_m_d that he should do nothing other than what is said on this site and in the books isn't really reasonable.

He should take whatever he can and use it to HIS advantage. Use what works for HIM. If that be using the MB Prinicples along with other Principles then so be it. But to tell him that by not doing it by the book is wrong.....is well.....wrong.

Anyone that knows me knows that I do not live in a box. Why am I not allowed to post what I have seen without being bashed?

I have just as much right as cerri to have an opinion.....whether I agree with hers or not. This is not mud slinging. This is 2 adults having a conversation about their opinions. I do not join in or condone bashing of any sort.....but I do offer my opinion...sometimes I come off the wrong way.....but I am allowed to have it...and I am allowed to disagree as long as I do it in a respectful manner.....which I do believe I have.

I was not slamming cerri because of her opinion.......yet a 3rd party comes in and starts slamming me because I have a different opinion........isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?

I will go back on the fact that I said that Dr. Harley says that in Plan A you become somewhat of a doormat and encourages it. I was wrong about that ( I can admit when I'm wrong). I read that statement wrong......it states that the BS can feel like somewhat of a doormat.

My whole point here.....is that cerri came into this post telling t_m_d that there is no modified Plan B......when I am proof that there is. I will admit it because I am proud of the way I handled myself throughout my ordeal and my xWH are now happily together.

I modified it because not ALL of the MB Principles worked for me. So I took things from here....and there.....and it worked for me.

To sit here and say that you can only do it this way or that way for it to work.....isn't realistic.

My opinion may be different.....but at least I can look outside of the box.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> THAT is what is scary about this site – the fact that MB-consistent advice can be so staunchly contradicted by someone who doesn’t even own the library (I think Surviving an Affair is a mandatory read for anyone touched by an affair), much less spent any time being “coached” by a Harley. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Kindly tell that to the hundreds of people on this site that do not have the money for the books and "coaching". Not everyone can afford it so they have to make do with what they can afford.

Just because I don't have the $ for the "coaching", I'm not allowed to have an opinion.

<small>[ September 03, 2002, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: Miss Priss ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Miss Priss:

I'm talking about different things working for different people. Even the Harley's will admit that their Principles aren't going to work for everyone.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you EVER heard one of the Harleys admit that their principles won't work for everyone?

The only thing I've ever heard along those lines are people who are "born liars" due memory loss from a brain injury caused by trauma or disease. This he says he cannot help.

Severe abusers with a history of exteme physical violence would be the only other write off. And even in those cases, WH reccommends that the couple separate in a Plan B scenario until the abuser agrees to get help, and then that they date with limited contact for an extended period of time. Only after that does he suggest ending the M. And I think that's considered more a failure of the one spouse to do the work, than of his methods.

Other than that? Boy, I don't know. A lot of things were brought up by many in the professional field at the conference I attended in DC, and Harley never once says that his stuff isn't for everyone. In fact, he says quite the opposite. Frequently, loudly.

I don't have a problem with modifying things. I have a problem with calling in MB. It's not. MB exists within rigid guidelines. You can take what you want and use it where it fits. But then call it something else. There is no such thing in MB as a "Modified Plan B."

C

MTD,

While everyone is trying to figure out who is right lets get back to you. My opinion is that you need to cut ties with her. She has been disrespectful to you in your house. There is no reason that she should feel the need to date the OM and have you waiting for her at home. Plus I would have a "come to Jesus" meeting with the OM about calling YOUR home. If she feels the need to contact him then she can find other ways to do it. She should not bring that in to your house. I had these situations arise in my M and recovery.

Actually the night I found out about her A's I called the OM and told him under no uncertian terms was he co call the house and IF he did not heed my warning there would be repecussions. Now I know that was a LB, but you know what? WHO CARES? I needed to stand my ground and lay down the rules of our house. Several times while she was in her fog we argued. Even though we fought I still did everything to show her I was an honest and caring and loving person.

The final straw was one night she was talking to him on her cell phone on our patio. She had been telling me she wanted to work on our M all this time, but was not fully willing to do it. I go fed up and said "hope he can make you happier than I could". I walked out the door before she could even hang up the phone. I was not mean, but I showed her that I was not going to tolerate her antics. I have too much respect for myself to do that. It did not even take a couple of days before she got real serious about us.

Now we are on our way to a great recovery. She communicates with me unlike she ever has and allows me to check up on her at anytime with out question. She checks in with me all the time to let me know where she is. She is doing all this for me to show me that she is trying and that she wants our marriage. It time she will not need to go to those extremes.

My opinion (not that it means much) is that you need to take a firm line with your W. Show her you are not going to be used, be confidant in yourself. If she thinks that you cant live without her then she will keep doing what she is doing. If you show her that you dont need her, but you want her. Then she just might make a turn around.

There really is no right and wrong way. Every one is different. The Harley books are excellent blueprints to recovering your marriage. But like all blue prints, there are revisions to be made to make it work better for you. I found SAA to help me deal with my feelings and what to expect in the recovery process, but it was up to me to plan out my plan A and how to approach it.

Be firm with your needs and your feelings. Dont let her disrespect your home with her selfish actions. Tell her if she needs to do this... then there is the door. But dont lock it behind her. Give her the option to comeback after she has proven herself.

goodluck to you and if you need someone to talk to .. e-mail me.

Madnav

Wow, uhm, thanks everyone. I think. I really opened up a can of worms here didn't I? I hope I am not the cause of any trouble, I just wanted a little advice:/. Really, thank you EVERYONE. That means everyone who offered their .02$ worth. I do appreceiate everyone taking time from their lives to try and help with my problems. Determination, Sad Tiger, Miss Priss, Cerri, Persistand, Madnav, thank you ALL very much. Hehe, I guess I should be more careful as to the questions I ask from now on. I have already taken everone's advice into consideration and will mover forward accordingly. Madnav, you may be happy to know that I have moved in with my mother for the time being, and have no intention of being her "little lost puppy". I do want her, but I have enough self respect to know that I can go on without her. Again thanks everyone, and uh, watch out for those hornet's nests ok? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

MTD,

I am not sure if this is the right thing to say, but congratualtions. You have made a HUGE step. Now the ball is in her court. This will allow her to figure it out on her own. When she realises that her OM can not fulfill everything that she needs. Then things will be different. It will be a trying time for you and she probably do everthing she can to pull you back home. Draw your line in the sand and let her know that "this is what it is going to take" for you to CONSIDER coming home. Stand your ground. She has made the mistake and she should be the one to walk through fire to get you back. Then when she has "figured out what she wants" (which is a cop out phrase in my opinion).Then start on the road to recovery with her.

This approach worked for me and I feel it showed her that I was not going to put up with her shenanigans and that I did not need her but I wanted her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Once I felt that she was sincere in her feelings, I met her half way and started finding out what was the root of our problems. Things are starting to get better than when we first got together.

Good luck

Mad

MTD,

Well, now that you’ve taken your first step toward Plan B, I think you ought to follow through and do it by the book. This includes a Plan B letter to your wife. (Otherwise, she’s just gonna think you’ve moved out as punishment, instead of Protection of your Love Bank.)

I pulled some Plan B guidelines that Cerri posted to Broken Hearted in my JFO post (After Long Plan A, Just Found Out). BH is being coached along the way in her Plan B. If you’re interested, you might go to page 220 and start reading her posts and responses. Here are Cerri’s notes on Plan B letter that she posted to BH:

Plan B:
1. I love you
2. I married you for life
3. I want to stay married to you
4. This thing that you are doing is too painful for me to bear
5. Until you end the affair and agree to never see or speak to her again, I do not want to see or speak to you
6. (In the case of children) I have asked _____ to act as intermediary with the children.

If you haven’t done it, you need to get a Plan B letter out ASAP. If you don’t have Surviving an Affair – buy it immediately and read it. It’s a great read for someone who’s life has been touched by an affair.

P

Thanks Persistant. Despite all the "conflicting orders" (joke) everone's advice has been big help. Please don't stop if there's anything more you could add!