Hiya, Cerri. Sorry I'm late. The dog ate my homework. Actually, I've just been busy. Lot's of LB's the last couple of days. Mostly today.

On to my homework first. Watched lots and lots of interview type shows. Oprah was the biggest help (can't believe I'm saying this <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ). Larry King wasn't much help as his interviews were more like interrogations <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . But here's what I've gotten so far. I don't think it's so much what you say, but how I direct the conversation. There were phrases; "What did/would you do?", "How do you feel about that?", "What do you think should have happened?", "Do you think that A had anything to do with B?". It would appear to be a matter of directing the conversation around the person and their thoughts/feelings. Like I said, Oprah was the best, Montel was pretty helpful too though. Not sure if this was what you were looking for, but the best get so far. I'll keep watching, I've got a long way to go. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Her needs for affection are just the simple things. I've gotten back into telling her not just how much I love her, but also how proud I am of her. How much I really want her in my life. I try to be careful to remain somewhat detatched, so she doesn't get the idea I can't live without her. I do have some self respect left. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I also try to remind her what a great mother she is. One item I try to harp on so to speak is what a great W she was and COULD be again, even better so than before. Sometimes I get the idea that with me trying to build her SE, she starts to get it into her head that I must try to "win" her back. I don't believe that is the case, is it?? You asked me before about her SE and how I knew it is low. It always has always been low. She is constantly worried about how she looks, her weight etc..., she won't even think about leaving the house unless she has her makeup on. She is forever looking in the mirror worried about what other people will say when they look at her. I am pretty confident that the OM's played on this EN to get what they needed. I'm by no means excusing her actions, but it may provide some insight to the root of the problems. She has been a victim of abuse for much of her life, emotional, physical, and sexual. Mostly by family members. This is probably where the SE problems are mostly derived from.

Now, as for my LB's. Had a huge one today. OM#3 is striving to be a singer, and he gave my W a demo disk with some sample songs on it. She thinks it sounds great, to me it's crap. But the really bad part is that the third track on the CD was OUR WEDDING SONG!!!!!!!! Naturally, my male ego took over and I turned it into a huge argument about respect, and how our marriage was a complete sham at this point, and why do we even bother saving it...etc..etc... Then I told her (hang on to your hats <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ) that if he was so great, and such a wonderful singer, and made her feel so da**** good, she should just go get her freak on with him and forget about me and the kids. She should just move to Georgia with him like he wanted her to. I wonder if he told this one to his W? Maybe I'll save him the trouble <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . Anyway, I know this was a huge LB, but she was actually the one to apologize and smooth it over this time. And we actually had a good talk once the yelling was done and over with, so maybe it wasn't a complete loss. I still feel pretty bad about picking a fight though. I've been really good about it so far, pretty disappointed in myself to tell you the truth. Ok, I've done my homework, as well as I could, and it may not seem like much, but I did get a lot out of it.

As always, thanks Cer, you're great <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (what, me suck up???)

^^^^^

Sorry I'm late. The dog ate my homework.

You forget, I have children... teenagers at that.... you can't use that excuse with me!!

But here's what I've gotten so far. I don't think it's so much what you say, but how I direct the conversation. There were phrases; "What did/would you do?", "How do you feel about that?", "What do you think should have happened?", "Do you think that A had anything to do with B?". It would appear to be a matter of directing the conversation around the person and their thoughts/feelings.

Yes, Oprah is excellent. So, I'd like you to get some notecards and write those phrases on them. Carry them with you.... cut the cards in half to make them smaller and more portable if you like. Number the cards. Look at them frequently.

Also, take a sheet of notebook paper and number it down the side with the same number of cards that you have. Make 7 columns, one for each day of the week.

Now, twice a day, look at your cards and your accounting sheet, and make a note of how many times you are using each phrase in conversation with your wife.

It sounds like a lot of work, but without a quantifiable plan that shows measurements, you cannot hope to know that you are staying on track. Good intentions are great, but the proverbial road to hell is paved with them.... or so I hear.... I personally don't believe in hell, but that's another story. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I'll keep watching, I've got a long way to go.

Practice time.... grasshopper....

Her needs for affection are just the simple things. I've gotten back into telling her not just how much I love her, but also how proud I am of her.

Well the one is affection and the other is admiration. But both are cool so go with it. You seem to have an intuitive grasp of the fact that she needs to hear that SHE is special to you. Not just that you want her there to meet your needs, or to be a parent, or because she is female.... but because she is herself. This is a really important ingredient for women, especially when it comes to affection

How much I really want her in my life. I try to be careful to remain somewhat detatched, so she doesn't get the idea I can't live without her. I do have some self respect left.

And that is gaining you what?????? You can have all the self respect in the world, but is it going to snuggle up with you at night???? Let her know that you do need her, and that you want her. Sure you can live without her, you did. But she needs to know that you want her there with you.

I also try to remind her what a great mother she is.

Good!!!

One item I try to harp on so to speak is what a great W she was and COULD be again, even better so than before.

This might border on disrespect. I would be careful with this concept. I think the idea that you want to get across is that YOU will be the husband she's always wanted, and together you will create a lifestyle that you both find wonderful... at the same time.

Sometimes I get the idea that with me trying to build her SE, she starts to get it into her head that I must try to "win" her back. I don't believe that is the case, is it??

Well, to a certain extent, it is. I would guess that if I could talk to her, I would find out that you were not meeting her most important EN's and that in addition you were doing things that were offensive or painful to her.

Now, having an A... much less more than one.... is NOT the ethical way to address those things. And the fact that she was unhappy with the state of the M is no excuse. Ever.

But Plan A is about showing that you are willing and able to make the changes necessary for her to be happy in the M.

I think I said this to you in my first post. Plan A will not restore love to your marriage, nor will it heal it. The A needs to end, there needs to be n/c, and conditions of recovery need to be laid out. Only then will you have love rebuilt. It takes about 2 years from the time the A ends.

You asked me before about her SE and how I knew it is low. It always has always been low. She is constantly worried about how she looks, her weight etc..., she won't even think about leaving the house unless she has her makeup on. She is forever looking in the mirror worried about what other people will say when they look at her.

Well, when I was in my 20's I was very much that way too. I would be careful to believe that you know the inner workings of her mind though. (I'm very guilty of this.... I'm always certain I know what H is thinking/feeling and why... now I've learned to just not SAY it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) But, as I was saying, what you may take for SE issues, could be something totally different such as anxiety.

Try this for a couple of weeks. No labels. View her in the moment only. So, for instance, in one moment in time she may be very self-confident... like at the accident scene. And in another she may be less so. Each of those ways of presenting herself is true. She is both confident and timid. She is a multi-faceted person who changes in conjunction with the events around her. Allow that. Remove the labels.

I am pretty confident that the OM's played on this EN to get what they needed. I'm by no means excusing her actions, but it may provide some insight to the root of the problems. She has been a victim of abuse for much of her life, emotional, physical, and sexual. Mostly by family members. This is probably where the SE problems are mostly derived from.

How awful for her!!! Been there, BTW. So I understand perhaps some of what she carries around. Yes, he probably listened to her stories, told her that he would love her no matter how damaged she felt, and convinced her that he saw only the beautiful parts. That's his Giver kicking in big time. If the fantasy relationship came to an end and he had to deal with her in real life, then he would have a much different outlook.

Naturally, my male ego took over and I turned it into a huge argument about respect, and how our marriage was a complete sham at this point, and why do we even bother saving it...etc..etc... Then I told her (hang on to your hats <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ) that if he was so great, and such a wonderful singer, and made her feel so da**** good, she should just go get her freak on with him and forget about me and the kids. She should just move to Georgia with him like he wanted her to. I wonder if he told this one to his W? Maybe I'll save him the trouble.

Ok, if you are going to do Plan A, then you need to be able to express how you feel, without going to this place. (Oh, and I've been there too..... the yelling the screaming the disrespect.... I think I have the gold medal!!!!)

So, what could you have done differently? First I think you need to learn to walk away. Find a way to relax and cool off when you start to get impatient. DO NOT wait until you are at the point of blowing up. By then it's too late. Think..... frustration.... walk away. Do you know that when you become really angry, the part of your brain that takes over has not developed past the age of 2???? So you are literally a 2yo having a temper tantrum.

Once you have calmed down, and I would give this AT LEAST half an hour, then you can come back and talk about how you feel. Which is what??? Offended that the cd is even in your home?? Hurt? Sick to your stomach? Afraid? All of those things are about you. You don't have the right to insist that she do anything, including get rid of the evil thing, but you have the right and the obligation to talk about how you feel.

I'm wondering why on earth you even listened to it???? Why would you put yourself in that kind of a position? It only hurts you, and as you found out, led to something that did damage to your M.

Anyway, I know this was a huge LB,

Ya think????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

And we actually had a good talk once the yelling was done and over with, so maybe it wasn't a complete loss.

Ok, lecture number 1, paragraph 1: There is no place for anger in marriage. It is abuse. It stems from a belief that we have the right to tell someone else what to do. so fights are a no no. The biggest taboo. Learn these simple steps: 1. Close mouth. 2. Walk away.

Losing your temper is always damaging. And you can't afford that. Your Taker is looking out for your best interests, but the strategies it uses... demands, disrespect, and anger are not in your best interests.

Ok, I've done my homework, as well as I could, and it may not seem like much, but I did get a lot out of it.

Good, that's what we're after. Did you get SAA? Let me know when you do.

As always, thanks Cer, you're great

And did you know I'm always right too???? LOL LOL LOL LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

C

Hello Cerri <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . Just wanted to keep you updated on what's going on.

And did you know I'm always right too???? LOL LOL LOL LOL [Big Grin]

Can't argue with you there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> (sucking up again)

Ordered SAA online today. Should have it in a couple of days (I priority mailed it).

Doing what you said with the cards and stuff. I have a lot to learn, but it's working. Not only are we talking more, but we have more meaningful conversations as well. I can tell it means a lot to her that I am listening.

One item I try to harp on so to speak is what a great W she was and COULD be again, even better so than before.

I can see how this would be disrespectful. I have steered away from things like this. Instead I try to focus on what a great mother she is (she really is ya know). I have also made sure to tell her repeatedly not just how much I love her, but WHY I love her. I think these are some things she was missing. I simply took it for granted she would always know <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> .

She is a great mother, and a great W (except for the obvious) and I really do want her with me for life.

Haven't LB's since the incident in the car. Wow, looking back, I really was acting like a two year old <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . I have apologized to her and explained to her that I know how I responded was childish and wrong. She seemed to appreciate that also. She really is a wonderful woman with so much to offer, I wish she would see it in herself. She has this view of herself as this big ugly monster who doesn't deserve to be happy.

I would also like to add that things are really starting to look up this last week or so. Despite the fight in the car, we have really been connecting again. I even catch her looking at me sometimes like she hasn't in a long time. It gives me hope for our future together. I know it doesn't mean we will make it, but it gives me hope none-the-less. Also, she hasn't seen OM in over a week, and hasn't had a meaningful conversation in much longer. I am not pushing for NC yet, but it may happen on it's own. Like I said the relationship was not very good by the time I found out anyway. She still goes through some withdraw though. She doesn't say it, but I can see it. Things like the CD and others. She still talks about him a little, but not nearly as fondly as she was 8 weeks ago. I know it doesn't actually mean it's over, and the only thing I have to go on is her word <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> (and my snooping). But she has been completely honost these last few weeks and it means alot to her that I am believe her. She knows I still snoop, but she understands why. She stil apreciates that when I can't find something out on my own, I am happy to take her word on it. We both still have a lot of work to do, but I can't help but be optomistic. She really likes the changes she sees in me, and so do I. Her changes are coming, though much more slowly. I understand that though. I have put up with this much, I can be a little more patient. She has begun searching for another job also. One more suited to her abilities. I know this is hard for her, I will be as patient and supportive as I can. The LB'ing has been cut down considerably on my part. She knows that I honostly credit her for helping me become the person I am now, and I keep telling her we can help eachother become better yet.

Ok, I'm rambling now, so I'm going to give it a rest tonight. I will be back when my thoughts are more in order <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> and I can post something more important.

Anything you would like to kow that may help? I'll be here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

BTW-I ordered SAA online today, and priority mailed it. Will let you know as soon as it comes in (should be a couple of days).

BAH!! You'd think by now I would know how to use all these stupid little buttons.
T.T.F.N.

Good morning!!!

Ordered SAA online today. Should have it in a couple of days (I priority mailed it).

Good job!!! Let me know when you get it.

Doing what you said with the cards and stuff. I have a lot to learn, but it's working. Not only are we talking more, but we have more meaningful conversations as well. I can tell it means a lot to her that I am listening.

Woooo hoooooo!!!!! That is sooooo excellent!!!!! As you find things that are working particularly well, mark those cards somehow or add a new one if it's something you stumble on that you don't already have. I am soooooo pleased to hear that.

[/b]I can see how this would be disrespectful. I have steered away from things like this. Instead I try to focus on what a great mother she is (she really is ya know). I have also made sure to tell her repeatedly not just how much I love her, but WHY I love her. I think these are some things she was missing. I simply took it for granted she would always know[/b]

Good. Women really need to know that they are loved because they're special. That SHE is the one you want, not just any warm body to feed the kids and take up half the bed. I told Persistant to get a couple of disgusting romance novels and read those for inspiration.

Single men with lots of girlfriends know this instinctively. No woman wants to hear that there needs to be a Plan for falling in love. She wants to be swept off her feet and to believe that you find her so irresistable that you can't be away from her. Think along those lines.

She is a great mother, and a great W (except for the obvious) and I really do want her with me for life.

Sounds like you are feeling better about everything too!

I would also like to add that things are really starting to look up this last week or so. Despite the fight in the car, we have really been connecting again. I even catch her looking at me sometimes like she hasn't in a long time.

THAT is what I want to hear. The look never lies. Now, you should know that as you recover and begin to restore those feelings of love, that they will come and go. There will be days that she feels in love with you, and days when she doesn't. Might even swing back and forth during the course of one day. That's normal and to be expected. Continue with meeting needs and avoiding LBers.

It gives me hope for our future together. I know it doesn't mean we will make it, but it gives me hope none-the-less. Also, she hasn't seen OM in over a week, and hasn't had a meaningful conversation in much longer. I am not pushing for NC yet, but it may happen on it's own.

A n/c agreement really should be in place. Let's see what happens with the job thing.

Like I said the relationship was not very good by the time I found out anyway. She still goes through some withdraw though. She doesn't say it, but I can see it. Things like the CD and others. She still talks about him a little, but not nearly as fondly as she was 8 weeks ago.

It takes anywhere from 3 weeks to 6 months to get though w/d. she's doing well.

She knows I still snoop, but she understands why. She stil apreciates that when I can't find something out on my own, I am happy to take her word on it. We both still have a lot of work to do, but I can't help but be optomistic.

One thing I think you could talk about a long these lines is accountability. That you each know where the other is 24/7. You exchange schedules and update them as needed. There should also be full accountability for money. And it needs to work both ways. This is to protect BOTH of you. When there are no secrets it's pretty hard to fall into habits that hurt your spouse.

She really likes the changes she sees in me, and so do I. Her changes are coming, though much more slowly. I understand that though. I have put up with this much, I can be a little more patient.

This is a really good place for you to be. There's lot to be done, but you are certainly on the right track.

She has begun searching for another job also. One more suited to her abilities. I know this is hard for her, I will be as patient and supportive as I can.

Wow!!! Way cool. I wonder if her parents kick in the butt did some good too?

BTW-I ordered SAA online today, and priority mailed it. Will let you know as soon as it comes in (should be a couple of days).

If you ordered it from MB it should come pretty quickly. The Harleys are excellent about getting that stuff out. I'll have some suggestions for how to read it, so let me know when it come. And if you don't have a highlighter..... go buy one.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

C

BAH!! Cerri, I did it again. I'm not sure if what I did was so wrong though. You tell me what you think. I was at the grocery store after work (I was going to by my W a card) when I ran into OM#3. He didn't see me. I was going to confront him as I have been trying to get him for a couple weeks now. He doesn't have a phone, so I just went by his house every now and then but he nor his W was ever home. However, he was with his W, and I was afraid of losing my temper. So since I knew where he lived, instead of confronting him I went his apt and left a note on his door. I told him that I know everything, I don't appreciate what he has done to my family, and I asked him to leave us alone (maybe a little presumptuous. I NEVER wrote anything derogatory or threatening in the letter. I appealed to whatever sense of decency he had left (he's already proven to be a liar and a cheater) and leave my W and my family alone so we could work on our marriage. I even said "please". I said please to a man who was doing the hootchie-cootchie with my W!!! And now she's P'ed at me!! Maybe she has a right to be, but I don't care. She's spent the last 2 years being selfish and doing what felt good to her to make her happy. This was my turn. This was my slamming the door in his face. I told you she hasn't seen him in a week. She told me today she doesn't want to see him anymore. Why did she get mad them?? She is afraid his W will find it first. I hope she does. She has a right to know. I asked her if his W doesn't care like she says, then what does it matter. She says she is worried he will come to her job and create a scene and get her fired. I think she is trying to protect him and still cares what he thinks of her. I maybe wrong. I think she believes everything is going to quietly slip away and nobody will have to deal with the consequences of their actions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> . He has to know he cannot arbitrarily do this and not expect repurcussions.

So PLEASE tell me, Cerri. Am I wrong? Am I just being hateful and selfish? *sigh*

What were you saying about good intentions???

Need input PLEASE!! Have I really screwed up?? I don't think so, but hey, I've been wrong a few (million) times before.

<small>[ September 25, 2002, 12:26 AM: Message edited by: madly_truly_deeply ]</small>

An update on my above LB. After OM read letter he went up to WW's job and they had a very heated argument. Details are sketchy but my understanding is that he left and told her he hates her and never wants to see her again. He said he is going to file charges against me for harrasment, for leaving a letter on his door??? Can he do that?? I seriously doubt it, especially when it will mean providing the note as evidence <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . Now my WW thinks that she just doesn't want a R because of all the problems. She is mad at me becuase he has every right to be upset. I guess sticking one's genitals into my W isn't enough to validate my getting upset. I am just about at the point where if it upsets her so bad she can forget about us and go comfort him.

I guess I should be happy about the end of the R, but I am not happy about her taking his side. I kind of wish his W had found the letter first <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

O.K. Cerri, I know I've got it coming so let me have it. I'm a big boy, I can take my medicine. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

By the way, I did not vent at her as I did in my post. Just had to get it out. Thanks Cer!!

Hate to but in, but...

I confronted the OM here too. My W asked me not to and I complied for a long time. I know it's not for everyone, but I think for some (me!) the confrontation is a necessary step--standing up for yourself, your family. A caveman-ish marking of your territory, too I suppose <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . I would like to think someday my WW would appreciate that I was willing to stand up for our family, even in a caveman-ish way.

I think the WS is caught between wanting to protect the OP and realizing that they can't. It also brings things that have been secret out into the open. That leaves them (WS) feeling powerless, fearful and that comes out as anger.

It will pass. It's part of what they call "withdrawal" around here.

My W's anger lasted about 1.5 weeks...if that helps.

<small>[ September 24, 2002, 11:04 PM: Message edited by: Riff ]</small>

UGH!! Cant sleep, I am so P'd off right now. Thanks for the input Riff, it does help a bit. Where do either one of them get off being P'd at me. He can screw my W and I'm just supposed to get over it, but I leave a stupid letter and all he** breaks loose?? What kind of BS (not betrayed spouse this time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> ) is that??? She says she didn't even want to look at me today. She barely said 2 words to me when she got home from work. Then she cried on the way home because of what he said. Maybe I should just let them have eachother. If this is how he acts when I do something, imagine how he can get when SHE p's him off. I hope he does call the police. Think about it. First off, he can't prove it was me because I didnt' use any names in the letter, and since he's already proven HIMSELF a liar and a cheater, how likely are the authorites to believe him? Second, he will have to provide the letter as evidence. I bet he can't wait to do that. Third, and most importantly, I checked with the local authorities and I DIDN'T DO ANYTHING ILLEGAL!!!!!!!!!!! So to he** with both of them. They deserve eachother. Let them go baste in their own stupid juices for a while and get a dose of reality. You're right Riff. Maybe this was a huge LB, but at this point I don't give a kaka. It is time I stood up for myself. I am tired of being a doormat. I know this isn't good for my M, but right now I really don't care. I will probably feel differently when I've had a chance to sleep on it but right now I don't CARE!!!@ She says she didn't even want to look at me after that, now she knows how I felt after I found out about the A's!! What right do they have to be mad?? He screwed my W for crying out loud. He can't actually expect not to suffer any repurcussions can he?? Is he really that stupid? He claims I threatened him, the closest I came to that was when I said that IN THE BEGINNING WHEN I FIRST FOUND OUT that the only thing protecting him from me was WW. Since almost day 1 I have known where he lives and works, what he drives, what his W drives. And I got it all with almost no effort. He gave me most of it unknowingly. He called my house from work, DUH!! I have caller ID. And it only took few questions around the bar where WW works to find the rest out about him. I love my W, but enough is enough. I want her with me more than anything, but I've had enough of this fog crap. It's time to wake up and smell what they're shoveling. I thought we were ready to try and start a good recovery, but I think maybe it's time for Plan B, or even Plan D. I really don't know if as much as I love/want her, if I can put up with this anymore. I am venting here instead of at her in the hopes I will clear my head by morning and be able to talk to her rationally in the a.m.. Wish me luck. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

BTW, you're not butting in Riff. I always welcome advice or criticism from anyone. I usually get the latter more often than not but what the heck. It all helps. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Dude, seriously, you're spinning out of control. Chill.

Your W's reaction is normal, predictable even. I know it's crazy-making, but get a grip. In a week or two, she'll settle down.

Try to keep the lines of communication open. Ask how she's feeling about it. Try to find out why she is angry. She too needs to vent, so try and let her. Make it safe for her to share her feelings with you.

Give yourself a day or however long it takes to cool down first.

Think of it this way, this is a perfect opportunity to prove what a keeper you are and what a LOSER the OM is. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

And if that doesn't work (if you can't get there from here), just back off. Don't let your W's being angry get you all upset. Detach a little...till things improve.

<small>[ September 25, 2002, 04:56 AM: Message edited by: Riff ]</small>

OK. Got up, took older boys to school. Did my daily workout. Still feel outraged. Have to admit, I think my taker is in complete control right now. And I'm not really caring about it right now. Up all night fuming about this, trying not to LB so I vented here. Got up with kids and took them to school. They usually hava a calming effect when I'm upset like this. I just can't remember being this upset except when I found out about A's. The rage is just overwhelming. WW is still sleeping with baby. Think I will catch a shower and go for a ride. Maybe go and get a milk shake. A real milk shake. Yes, for breakfast even. I think that would be nice. Then I'll come home and take a nap before I go pick the boys up from school. Maybe this will help me relax. I just don't know anymore. Really. Who are they to be P'ed off at me??? When do I get to be P'd off at somebody without it blowing up in my face??

Yup, taker in absolute control right now. Gotta make him step aside for a while. Gonna go now. I will post more later.

Since my taker is in charge now, it has just occured to me that I have spent the last two months apologizing for my mistakes and flaws. She has yet to offer an apology or even ask for forgiveness from me yet. She continually says she feels like a bad person, but no "I'm sorry for what I've done", or "will you ever forgive me?". The closest I have heard yet is "I'm sorry you're hurting". BAH!! HUMBUG!! bunch of kaka to me. poop on it all.

LOL LOL LOL......

Whoa guys..... I take a day off and all heck breaks loose around here!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Hi, Riff.... pleeztameecha.... I'm Cerri.... infamous witch of the really long thread at JFO. No, really a witch......... never mind......

So then, ya did the confront and ask to butt out thing, did ya??? GOOD FOR YOU!!!! (Didn't expect that, did you??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> )

Telling is great. And his violent reaction is one of the reasons why that is so. Do you think he deposited love units by having a raging public argument with your wife, embarrassing her, and threatening legal action? I think not! I think he showed her an ugly side she didn't know existed.

What about POJA you say??? Well, when a spouse is having an A, or refusing to end contact, then the things you need to do to save your marriage, end the A, preserve your family, are NOT subject to POJA.

Let me state that again: You do not need your spouse to be enthusiastic about the things you do to end the affair.... telling, snooping, confronting, making it public.

Why not? Because the integrity of the marriage has already been breached. The things you do to salvage the remains, with the hope of getting to recovery, are picking up the pieces. They are necessary actions driven by the betrayal of the WS.

You should have confronted him the moment you knew about the A. I would say that you should have told his wife as well. Along with your family, her family, your friends, and your religious leader. Affairs do not do well in the light of day. They are able to function well only in the fanatsy world of secrecy.

So she's mad at you. Bummer for her. She'll get over it. You don't need to apologize for what you did. I would suggest however that you empathize with her about how terribly horrid he was when he came to her workplace.

Express shock and dismay that he could treat her so badly. And whatever you do.. NOT ONE TINY BIT of the anger you are feeling gets directed at her. Dump it here.

Tell her you understand that she is hurting. And let her know that you will be there for her. I suspect that she is feeling a little more of the w/d things, having all this blow up in her face. Wait it out, it will pass. Be supportive, show care, and protection is essential.

Now about the apologizing stuff. Yeah, it's pretty typical that the WS doesn't offer an apology for the pain the BS feels. I'm sorry, I wish it were different, but it seems pretty common. It's part of the fog and the denial about what a terrible thing infidelity is. Try to let it go. I know it's not fair... but nobody said life was going to be fair.

And one more thing. I don't like labels. She's simply your wife. The WW thing will cause your resentment to linger longer than if you drop the label.

Sounds like you thought of some ways to relax and destress. I hope it helps. Let me know if you need anything else. I'll be around here til about 2 my time... CT. Back pretty late tonight though...

You did the right thing, it's not always easy, and sometimes you have to get through the consequences of it, but it was the right thing to do.

C

Get the book yet???

Oh and..... my standard lecture on the Taker:

The Taker is NOT a bad guy. The Taker is the part of you that watches out for your best interests.

The Giver doesn't give a rat's patooti about what happens to you or how you feel. The Giver would spend you into the poorhouse and put you in the grave just so it can help other people.

Your Taker keeps that from happening. BUT it's the Taker's STRATEGIES that get you into trouble. See the Taker doesn't give a hoot about anyone else. Just wants to make sure that you are fat and happy. So the Taker's instincts are to use demands, disrespect and anger to get what it wants. THAT's where you need to be careful.

So you have these warring polarities going on all the time. And it gets us into trouble when we allow EITHER of them to rule unchecked. When the Giver gets its way at our expense, the Taker will rear its ungly head and start charging about like the proverbial bull in the china shop.

What we need to learn to do is to sit back and see where each wants us to go, and then to use our intelligence to figure out how to keep both sides happy at the same time. And that is a whole new level of fun that you'll be headed for soon!

C

OMG, where do I begin?? I don't think I got everything I wanted. But I did get what I needed. And here I thought I had gone and flushed it down the crapper. Anyways, here it goes. My W (notice not WW) came in to see me at work today. I dont' know if I've mentioned it before but I had previously left my full time career and kept only a part time job since then. I left my career only partially to work on my M (I left career just before D-day) but I have stayed part time ONLY to work on my M. Anyhow, my W came into my place of employment today to drop off the kids with me before going to work herself. She tells me she needs to talk to me. I (naturally) assume the worst. So I prepare myself to have my heart ripped out of my chest just to watch her dot he Mexican hat dance on it. Instead, she says (she will be moving into new apt. first of month) when she moves in, she would like me to move back in with her!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> She asks if I can leave past behind me. I say I can forgive, but I don't want to forget. Otherwise the lessons we learned and the pain we endured were for nothing. BTW, at this time I am actually restraining myself from doing cartwheels etc... So we talk about it a bit, go to store and pick up a few items. We go back to my POE, swap the kids out, and for the first time in 2 1/2 mos. she tells me she loves me, and what's more, I could see she meant it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . I didn't get the "I'm so sorry", or "I've been such a fool", or anything like that. But I realized that that's not what I'm after. All I was after, and what I got, was for her to look at me the way she did when we got married seven years ago, and an honost-to-God commitment to work on our M. I did indeed get exactly what I needed. I realize we both have a lot of work to do. And some ground work to lay. And I don't think I'm ready to move over to the Recovery board just yet. I'm still working on myself. I like the person I've become/becoming. And more importantly, so does she. We talked a small bit about POJA, and Radical Honosty. But mostly we just basked in the moment. I honostly expected to have to wait much longer before hearing her say these things, and even a part of me expected to have to go to Plan B or even D before I got anywhere near this close. I know that it is entirely possible I am getting my hopes up to high. But just thinking back on the way she looked at me when she said "I love you", I can't help but believe that this is for real. She has agreed to no contact, though she hasn't found a new job yet, so he may show up there again. Hopefully it won't be to start trouble if he does. And don't think for a moment you guys are rid of me yet. You can't be that lucky <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . Especially not you Cerri. I'm nowhere near done with you yet. I will have so many questions and problems that will require your omnipotence you may as well just camp out in my front yard <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . But for now, I'll just enjoy the moment. The moment I realized that my efforts were not in vain. It won't be easy, it won't be quick. But if it were, would it realy be worth it anyway? Thanks to all who have helped me already, and to those poor souls who venture into my world to help me in the future (You do realize you're stuck in my world forever right Cerri?) LOL. I have much more to say, but don't know how to say it or even ask the questions I have to ask yet. So I'm going to enjoy my family for a bit, and I'll be back later.
T.T.F.N.

Hi MTD...

Oh dear, dear, dear, dear..... Why do I have to be the bad guy. Oh my.... Oh ooohhhh...

Ok, well here's the thing. The most vulnerable time of repair and recovery for a marriage when there has been an A, is right where you are now.

When the A has ended and the WS wants to reconcile.

You the BS, are so relieved and so happy that at last the hellishness seems to be over and that your spouse actually wants to be part of your life again, that you do things that are not in the best interest of long term recovery.

Living together again without getting a firm commitment to the recovery process is going to backfire on you big time. I wish there was an easier way to say this, or that I didn't have to say it at all, but it's not the thing to do...... yet.

This is the make or break point. This is where you set the stage for real recovery and marriage that can be all you want, or one that is mediocre at best or destroyed by another affair at the worst.

Most marriages that are hit by infidelity do not end in divorce due to the affair. They end in divorce because there is no plan for recovery.

Please, let's talk about this before you jump in. I can help you through this minefield and you can get what you want. But the recovery road is very narrow. You can email me if you want at info@lifeworks-coaching.net ..... and be sure to sign up for my newsletter at www.saveyourmarriagecentral.com

BTW... Joan of Arc is me. It's my story. Or part of it, anyway.

Blessings,

C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BTW... Joan of Arc is me. It's my story. Or part of it, anyway.

Blessings,

C
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No wonder that statement of 'most women can't do a long plan A' sounded strangely familiar.

I won't ask why you did the name change (none of my business anyway), I'm just glad that you finally got out of Persistant's never ending thread and joined the rest of us. Your wealth of experience will benefit us tremendously and may also send business your way (hey we all got to make a living, right?).

Thanks again Lone MB Ranger (who was the masked woman riding that white horse?) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />