And without the letter! Didn't feel that a letter was necessary because H has been assured umpteen times that I do love him, that I would consider reconciling as recently as two weeks ago, even though I'm now not sure about this - my feelings for him are dwindling.

H has been gone now for five months in total. He left to be with the OW, two minutes after confessing his affair. Since then we have had face to face contact twice weekly and he will call on the phone about twice a week in regard to our daughter and child support.

Since he's been gone I have made big changes - all seem to have been to no avail. I have tried, tried really hard, but H appears to be stuck in LaLaLand and it's a place from which I doubt he will ever return, not anytime soon anyway. This is my gut feeling and always follow your gut......right?

Throughout the past five months though, he has called on a number of occasions and told me that he is unhappy with the OW, how he still loves me, etc...More recently (two weeks back), I recieved a phonecall in which he told me that he wanted out of the situation with OW and we talked about reconciliation. Nothing came of it all, it was all words on his behalf and I saw no actions. A week after he made this call, he was holidaying with the OW!!! Does that seem like a man who is unhappy and wants out of a situation - I think not! H, OW on this holiday, had my H's name tattooed on her back - these kinds of things tells me only one thing - that their relationship is serious and for keeps!

I feel that when he calls me, he is simply looking for reassurances every once in a while, that his *safety net* is still there, should things not work out with OW - he is *fencesitting*.....and so I've decided to knock him off his fence and let him live with OW FULL TIME and without me in his life completely. No more reassurances from me will ever go his way again. OW now becomes completely responsible for catering to his EVERY need and there are needs that she obviously is not meeting, hence his need to call me.

Rather than just go dark and ignore him and his phone calls though, I simply called H an hour ago on the phone and told him that I am no longer taking our daughter to see him anymore. I have been taking her to see him since the first week he left. I told him that if he wants to see her, then it's his responsibility to come to my home and collect her himself now. There is no court order that states I have to take her to see him and any court in this land would rule that if he wants to see his daughter, then the responsibility to do so lies with him, not with me.

He'd asked why I was causing trouble. (notice how he tries to make me feel guilty when I refuse to not do what he wants, hence accusing me of causing trouble), I told him I wasn't causing trouble. I told him that I think it's about high time he took responsibility for seeing his daughter himself by coming to my home and waiting outside in the car for her and that he shouldn't expect that I keep on and on and on doing him any favours.

I also told him that I no longer wanted to be a part of his life, I wanted completely out of it. To be honest I'm sick of being involved in his sick love triangle, hearing words that he doesn't carry through and I no longer want to be a part of it in any way, shape or form.

I also told him that I would appreciate him making no more phone calls to my home, it is now not necessary for him to do so. My terms are plain and simple. If he wants to see his daughter, then he call at the home where she will be waiting every Sunday morning at 10am, he waits outside in the car for her and then he return her at 4pm.

He listened to all of this, said OK, then I put the phone down. All contact has now been cut <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I probably chose and settled for the worst way to PlanB, but you know something, I no longer care anymore. I feel that a great weight has been lifted from my shoulders, I feel that I am free!

I'm going dark for me. I want my life back and I don't feel that I can move on with my life properly, until he is totally and utterly out of the picture, especially given that I know he is not coming back home again. I have to learn to live my life without him now and I don't think that will be so bad. It certainly doesn't look as bad now, as it first did five months ago. A different ME emerged out of all this mess and it's a ME I've grown to like and love.

Only time will tell what evolves from all of this, but that is time I aint gonna spend moping around awaiting an outcome.

No doubt the OW will stroke his ego and soothe him after this latest phonecall from me......LOL.
She will have to learn to do this now to the best of her ability and to meet ALL and EVERY SINGLE ONE of his needs to the best of her ability also:D

But my payback will be when he starts LB'ing on her, cuz he is having withdrawal symptoms from his wife of 10 years who he doesn't have in his life anymore.

If you want to divorce him, then do it. If you want to Plan B, then SEND A LETTER!

It matters not what you told him previously.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by EdensSecret:
<strong>I also told him that I no longer wanted to be a part of his life, I wanted completely out of it. To be honest I'm sick of being involved in his sick love triangle, hearing words that he doesn't carry through and I no longer want to be a part of it in any way, shape or form.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I saw you didn't tell him about "If you dump OW and work on M ... then we might resume contact". RIGHT NOW YOU JUST TOLD YOUR H THAT YOU DON'T WANT HIM AND DON'T LOVE HIM NO MORE and DON'T BELEIVE THERE IS ANY HOPE OF RECONCILIATION.

Please if you still want your H then you should send him plan B letter asap. If you don't want your M no more I understand what you are doing. When I turned the table on my ExW, I told my ExW that there is no possibility under the sun that I would take her back ... I do NC just to protect myself and my sanity.

-rh-

Well so much for PlanB - I failed already <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Phone rang at 3.30 and I answered, IT WAS H!!! I immediatley told him that I had nothing more to say to him, I'd made my terms perfectly clear, he practically begged me to stay on the line and to hear him out...so I did and just let him talk.

Well....he began by mentioning what I'd said this morning and asked why I didn't want to take our daughter to see him anymore, what were my reasons? I told him that I didn't see why I should do him anymore favours, plus I didn't want him in my life anymore, he was now free, so was I.

He'd then broke down crying and began saying he missed me and missed me terribly!! He told me that he was afraid to come to the home. I asked why and he told me that he is afraid to come to the home because he knows that if he did, then he wouldn't want to leave again.

He told me that he still loves me, MORE than he does the OW. He says it's a different kind of love, a much deeper love for me, than he has for her and he referred to OW as being a good companion and a good friend to have around. She involves herself in his life a lot and goes everywhere with him, he said!!

He said that he would come back home, but he is in a situation that is difficult to get out of. He said that if he came home, it would mean leaving OW in the same way that he left me - hurt and alone and he couldn't bear to have to go through it all again. He kept saying over and over again, how he wished he had never gone out that night and met her, how he wished he could turn back the clock.

He also said that if he were to come home, I would probably never be able to forgive him and he wouldn't be able to just switch off his feelings for OW. He says that when he imagines the OW with another man, it kills me - it also kills him when he imagines me with another man also. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

He asked me, had I noticed that everytime I go to collect child support, he has a friend with him in the car. I said yes. He then told me that he always brought this friend along because he does not trust himself around me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> He doesn't trust himself not to take hold of me, hug and kiss me because he still feels strongly for me and this is what he wants to do everytime he sees me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

He says that somedays things are OK with OW, yet other days he feels he wants to just pack up and come home.

Well, much, much more was said besides, I was quite taken aback by what he was saying!!

He is still wanting to be a *fencesitter*, and a *cakeman*. He seems to be playing both I and OW against each other and he doesn't want to have to make a choice if he can help it! He can't have both, but I get the impression that is what he wanting!!!! He was on the phone well over an hour !!!

Just when I thought I was ready for moving on......AARRRGHHHHHHH, why does he have to do this!

I feel such a failure <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Have you considered calling Marriage Builders and getting an appointment with Steve or Jennifer Harley?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by EdensSecret:
<strong>Well so much for PlanB - I failed already <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> .... I feel such a failure <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">{{{{((((HUG))))}}}} cyber hug is safe <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . I didn't consider you are in plan B ... (in WH's point of view) you just being mean to your WH and try to forget about him. Plan B is hard, specially when WH is confused. It takes many oopsh.

I second Chris's sugestion to get MB conseling. I always beleive that one should get conseling with MB when they try plan A and is not working. They would help you to review your plan A and give you advice when you need to move to plan B.

You have to give him plan B letter if you want to continue at the current course. Put caller ID on your phone and let VM answer blocked numbers.

-rh-

<small>[ July 14, 2003, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: redhat ]</small>

Hi Eden

I know I'm the one who suggested the other day that you could do a Plan B without the letter <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> - now I regret having said that!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He is still wanting to be a *fencesitter*, and a *cakeman*. He seems to be playing both I and OW against each other and he doesn't want to have to make a choice if he can help it! He can't have both, but I get the impression that is what he wanting!!!! He was on the phone well over an hour !!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As I read your situation now I would say that NOW is the perfect time for a proper Plan B - WITH the letter. It seems like your WH can't let go of you and that you actually want him back in your life.
If you write the letter it will be easier for you to tell him what you feel and explain to him under which circumstances you will be willing to take him back.
A phone conversation tends to be more of a discussion. You need to give him statements that cannot be argued.

There are several Plan B sample letter here at MB - use their essense for inspiration.

Good luck <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
I think you'll succeed!

Thanks all for the advice <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Danish

Honestly, H KNOWS how I feel without a PlanB letter....LOL. He knows that I still love him, he knows that I would want to reconcile should he wish too. He has noticed my changes, he even commented for the first time ever on how great I was looking these days <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> He more or less has been told that I want no more contact with him while he remains with her and NC because it upsets me to see him.

He also said things such as, how he'd been hurting when we were together and I told him I was sorry for causing his hurt, how I am more than willing to put things right again. I asked him which of his needs that I hadn't been meeting, what had driven him to seek those needs in a third party? He said that a few of his needs had been going unmet <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I'd then told him, how was I supposed to know some of his needs were being unmet, when he had never come to with the problems? He agreed. He accepts that he had faults too.

I told him everything that I would have contained in a PlanB letter.

Yesterday I had a really good discussion with him. We talked about old times, had a laugh together - he said many things that I hadn't been expecting to hear. I probably said many things that he hadn't been expecting to hear also. He was really open in this call, so was I.

I do truly intend to stick to NC now. He's making it kinda hard because he told me he would phone me this week sometime to let me know how he is getting child support to me, because I am not meeting him face to face for it anymore.

The same will apply when he collects our daughter. I have told him that he starts to collect her from our home and wait outside in the car for her. Normally I take our daughter to see him - again this was a face to face contact meeting.

I really have no clue as to what the outcome of this will all be <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

The way I see things is, he is afraid to leave this OW. He is caught between a rock and a hard place. He feels far too responsible for her now and it appears he'd totally break her heart if he left her. My H is one of lifes soft touches and always has been, this is how he first came to know this OW. He listened to her drone on about her abusive husband and he felt sorry for her <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Regardless though, it does appear that he doesn't want to let me go and isn't about to that easily. He isn't managing to move on in his new life, even though he is with her and has been for five months.

<small>[ July 15, 2003, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: EdensSecret ]</small>

Eden, without a doubt, get that letter written.

When you speak to the H on the phone, the conversation is subject to his interpetation as to what you actually said, as we all here know, that thought process is extremely distorted.

When you send him that letter there is no interpetation, it is all there in black and white.

He also will have something in hand that, I can gaurantee you will be read over and over, a conversation on the phone is not rehashed accuratley, it is said people only retain 10 percent of what they hear. The letter is 100 percent.

As hardcore as my W is about this whole situation, it definetley hit home when she recieved my letter. So far it has not had the desired affect, but she did try to contact me to the point that it became annoying.

PLEASE SIT DOWNAND GET THAT LETTER OFF.

There are copies of letters here to give you a great way to compose a letter which does not sound like begging, get started.

He will take notice when he gets it....

Honestly, H KNOWS how I feel without a PlanB letter
Then what's the harm in doing it to reinforce your thoughts and why you are in no contact.

I told him everything that I would have contained in a PlanB letter.

Yesterday I had a really good discussion with him. We talked about old times, had a laugh together - he said many things that I hadn't been expecting to hear. I probably said many things that he hadn't been expecting to hear also. He was really open in this call, so was I.
You say you are in Plan B, yet you have big discussions.

He more or less has been told that I want no more contact with him while he remains with her and NC because it upsets me to see him.
In a Plan B letter, it is not "more or less has been told that I want no more contact". It is DEFINITIVE exactly what you require. The letter (not email) puts in his hands so he can read, and not assume what you want.

The way I see things is, he is afraid to leave this OW. He is caught between a rock and a hard place.
A PLan B letter, along with Plan B gives him options and gives him concrete actions he must take for you to consider reconciliation.

Are you for some reason against sending a Plan B letter?

Send the Plan B letter along with a suggestion that he mail you the support check and then NC unless he is willing to NC the other woman and return to properly work on things. Four times in the past I have told my wife no contact and she ususally initiates a call after one week with her emotions and I go right back into the trap and nothing changes. As you know I recently sent a plan B letter (week ago) but have almost NC for two weeks. She hasn't called yet and I'm not sure what to make of it but I can tell you that it is VERY HARD not to want to talk to them, especially when they are saying the things your husband was saying and wht my wife has said. Remember, actions speak louder then words.

Now What

The PlanB letter I have to admit, does sound good.
I'm afraid though that H would think me a fool, because I would be telling him in this letter, things I've already told him.

How would I get a PlanB letter to him anyway, when I am not going to see him anymore? Don't ask me to post it, because OW might open it, laugh her [censored] off at it and dig her claws into H much further than she already appears to have them. This OW is not about to let my H go easily. She has his name tattooed all over her body and keeps him constantly in *her face* !!

Apparantly she even times H by the clock, when he has been picking our daughter up from me !! If he's five minutes longer than he should be in my presence, she isn't happy ! H told me this !!

Since he made that call, I have heard nothing else, didn't expect too.....LOL. His last words were "I will call you through the week and let you know how I am getting child support to you".
He normally pays me child support every Friday, so if he is going to call on the phone, it will be tomorrow morning - that is if he calls <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I'm sitting awaiting his next move with baited breath. I have a feeling that he will try to break the NC.....I could be wrong though.

I'm afraid though that H would think me a fool, because I would be telling him in this letter, things I've already told him.
??? You have only ever told your husband things one time? Haven’t you told him many times you love him, want to be with him, that you were mad at him, etc?

Nothing wrong with restating the obvious, ESPECIALLY when it is something so critical as trying to save your marriage. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

How would I get a PlanB letter to him anyway, when I am not going to see him anymore?
You will take it to him and give it to him directly.

Don't ask me to post it, because OW might open it, laugh her [censored] off at it and dig her claws into H much further than she already appears to have them.
Don’t worry about that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> She gets a copy of the same letter with an extra paragraph, just for her.

This OW is not about to let my H go easily. She has his name tattooed all over her body and keeps him constantly in *her face* !!
This is one thing that Plan B does. It forces them to spend ALL their time together. Then they can see each other and how they really are. I wouldn’t want anyone around me ALL the time.

Apparantly she even times H by the clock, when he has been picking our daughter up from me !! If he's five minutes longer than he should be in my presence, she isn't happy !
This is good. How long do you think he will put up with this kinda crap from her? Not too long.

I'm sitting awaiting his next move with baited breath. I have a feeling that he will try to break the NC
Maybe. But what do you think will happen when you send the letters? The ow will laugh and chuckle and DEMAND that he does not contact you. And again, you think he will “just put up” with that? Not for long.

But guess what. There has to be SOME contact because you have kids, even if it’s through a 3rd party. And every minute he is not at home, she will be wondering if he’s gonna call/see you and drill him when he gets back. Again, this is something that he won’t put up with.

He’ll read your letter and see that you love him and want to work it out. Loving him EVEN though he is living with another woman! How “good” is that? Then he’ll turn around and see her and think of how she times him when he picks up the kids, etc. And he’ll think, “how loving is that?”

Write a letter and please post it here BEFORE you give it to him/send it to her.

<small>[ July 17, 2003, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

Eden,

I now know why Cerri made the comment she did on along thread over in JFO. She said that she finds that if a BH comes to her, that she often has great success in recovering the marriage, because men will TAKE ACTION. She is finding that when BS women come to her, often there is little success because all they want to do is complain but take NO ACTION.

You have been getting good advice. Your H is playing you like a violin. It is a plain as the nose on your face to all here. Go to plan B and do it right. Find someone to act as the intermediary for you two, and have him male you the CS check.

Send him a the plan B letter and send a copy to OW. Harley recommends that you send a copy to the OP in these cases, and then go black and stay black until the affair is over OR you decide that there are better out there.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks to all who have replied. I know that you all think sending a PlanB letter would serve in my best interests, BUT I couldn't possibly send this to the OW.....LOL. She would laugh her backside off, plus it would more than likely only serve to fuel her passion further for my H, when I would be so obviously making it clear that I wanted him back. She would gloat even more over the fact that H chose her over me.

But anyway, an update to the sitch.

H didn't call me to let me know how he was getting child support to me, as he said he would. I was broke, totally skint, due to car repairs I'd had to pay for earlier this week and so I called him on his mobile phone. I didn't want too, just didn't really have a choice in the matter.

Well......when he answered I asked him was I recieving any child support this week and I reminded him that he'd said he'd call me. He said he'd been waiting me calling him as I would usually and I was told that he couldn't give me full child support this week as he was a pay day short. I believe him because he wasn't at work Monday. He then asked if I'd meet himm to collect it.......and after everything I'd said on Monday. I told him that no, I wasn't going to collect it as he'd said he'd try and get it to me some other way. He said that he couldn't call at the home. I'd then asked him if he could get one of his friends to drop it off and he replied that he couldn't expect his friends to run around with money for me. Which then left me little option but to go and collect it - meaning the NC was broken. I wasn't happy !!!!

This man seems to have taken absolutely NO NOTICE of everything I told him in our phone call last Monday. He must think that I make these calls because I am simply bored and have nothing better to do. Why won't he take me notice of me and what I say seriously ???? It's like talking to a five year old child who has great difficulty understanding - you have to keep repeating yourself and I'm tired of repeating and seemly not being heard.

When I arrived at the meeting place he was already there and he was alone. He got out of his car, came over and handed me the money. Feels very degrading to recieve money handouts in a garage, but anyway........he apologised saying he was sorry that was all he could give me. He then began making small talk about the car, had I had it repaired, etc, etc, and then the conversation turned to his daughter. He asked could he see her Sunday. I told him that he certainly could, however I was not taking her to see him. He probably sensed I wasn't very happy and so he'd said "OK, will see what I can do"....then he walked towards his car, got in and drove off.

No word since !!

Tomorrow though I am expecting him calling to again ask to see his daughter. He will just expect that I take her to see him as I normally would, but I AM NOT! I am simply going to say, "Sure you can see your daughter, when can we expect you dropping by to collect her"? He will then tell me he cannot call by, perhaps try to make me feel guilty in some way for not losing my resolve on this matter, he will try and make me feel bad because he will make me feel that it is my fault he can't see his daughter, when in actual fact it will be through his own choice that he can't see her.

You know something, I am beginning to wonder whether he makes calls in which he will sweet talk me, as a way of trying to weaken me and get me to lose my resolve - so that things will still continue to flow along smoothly to his way of liking. I figure it makes his life a whole lot easier and OW's too, when she knows he doesn't come to my home and I am enabling this not to happen. Because that is what this is probably really all about - keeping his OW's face straight!!!

Truth was known, it's more likely to be her who is having the say in where he should go and where he shouldn't go.

<small>[ July 19, 2003, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: EdensSecret ]</small>

.....and so it would seem that this going to end up one of those sitchs whereby because H is so adamant in staying away from our home, he is going to have NC with his daughter from now on, as well as me. This however is his problem and not mine. I refuse to budge on the matter of taking him to see her. I'm gonna end up the bad guy in all of this.

He may even suggest that one of his friends come and collect her, but I aint allowing him to shirk his responsibilities !!

I know that you all think sending a PlanB letter would serve in my best interests,
But are you gonna send one?

BUT I couldn't possibly send this to the OW.....LOL.
Why?

She would laugh her backside off,
And she'd call you names to your h. You think he'd be happy with that? After all, you guys do have a history together.
It's one thing for him to make the past look like crap but for HER to do it, then she is really calling him an idiot.

plus it would more than likely only serve to fuel her passion further for my H, when I would be so obviously making it clear that I wanted him back.
It would make sure that BOTH of them know that you want the marriage.

She would gloat even more over the fact that H chose her over me.
And again, she would look bad to your h as he picked you previously and she is calling him an idiot.

Truth was known, it's more likely to be her who is having the say in where he should go and where he shouldn't go.
So she is controlling him, right? One reason affairs happen is because the ws feels they are not controlling their own lives.
He ain't gonna put up with it, especially when he sees that you are nothing but nice and want ot fix it, not hust go back to what it was.

So, are you going to do the Plan B letter or just let him continue to think you are mad at him and don't want a marriage?

OW has in fact called me names before, *daft cow* springs to mind. She has also told me that H had a life of hell with me for 10 years, I used him for money, I never loved him - so it's pretty obvious that H didn't give her a very good impression of me anyway. I doubt he'd care whether she called me names or not, his loyalty is to her now, he is going to defend her over me I feel. OW has also told me how great the sex is between her and my H....this was all said over the phone around three months back and in H's presence. Circumstances had brought OW and I together as she had phoned my daughter on her mobile and I'd answered it. And then you want me to write a PlanB letter to this kind of woman ???

And why would H think I was mad at him? I am not mad at him and he knows I am not. I'm simply doing and wanting him to do what I think is best in the circumstances and that which makes it easier for me. He has been told all of this. He knows that I am not trying to cut him off because I hate him, can't stand to see him or that I am spiteing him in anyway, I made that plainly obvious.

I would consider sending a PlanB letter to him, to her, NO WAY! But I still feel that H knows all there is to know. Knows I love him (told him often enough), he knows how it still hurts me to see whenever we have we contact, he knows that I would be willing to reconcile, that next time around things WOULD be different. I've told him all this for the past five months.

I know, I know.....you prob think I'm a lost cause <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

...and another thing. What makes ppl think that my H will even take any notice of a letter? Sure as heck doesn't seem to take any motice of anything else I do or have to say.

Actions are the only things that he seems to take any notice of and it's when I act that he seems to jump <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I wasn't sure if I had anything to add, but I might...I sent a NC letter to my on H on Sunday, there is no OW, but our recovery was going nowhere and he was still getting a lot of his needs met by me (see other posts). But I got some GREAT advice when i was questioning breaking the NC...I have been told that by establishing no contact then going back on it, seems that I don't mean business and am not committed to what I say (read my post MOVED TO NC WITH H) for the true advice....You contnuously blame your H for making you have contact with him, and why isn't he listening to you?? Why should he? He is getting his way...Long discussions, meetings etc..Why can't Child support be sent in the mail, or dropped in your home mail box, at a friends etc...These are ploys to get you to give, you are partly to blame....

Sorry for the harshness but I felt it needed to be said..I agree with Plan B, why are you so worried about what the OW says-you also sound like my WS with a ton of excuses why things won't work, what is the harm in trying anyway??

Hope it works out...