Yeah, today is our 3rd wedding anniversary and I'm back to not feeling any hope.

I just realized this week that WS loves OW and the pain and hurt are just starting for me. I think the numbness of discovery is wearing off. WS is not remorseful and isn't sure he wants the M. I keep asking for a chance to work on us. I've been working on Plan A, but it gets harder with each day that he sees her.

We are going to MC and I'm going to IC. We will be attending Retrouvaille this weekend. MC and the weekend coordinators both say A must end. This weekend is very important to me -- I'm hoping WS will agree to NC. But he is feeling like everyone is giving him an ultimatum and he is loathe to think that *anyone* could make him do anything.

Last night, I told WS that I can't go much longer like this. I need to protect my self-esteem and my love for him. I said that if he does not decide to stop seeing OW, then I would have to ask for a separation (Plan B).

He pretty much freaked out -- how dare I give him another ultimatum. He asked if that meant he would move to another bedroom (ha!). I said I didn't know what it would look like (I lied) and that it was something we would need to discuss.

I'm losing hope and wondering if this is normal. He is being unreasonable in our everyday issues and I'm not even sure if I want this M anymore. Also, I'm starting to believe WS is narcissistic.
I'm getting to the point of wanting OW to take him!

I was really looking forward to this weekend, but I'm afraid our hearts will be closed to do any good.

I'm not sure I can practice the MB principles.

ibc,
you sound like you're in a plan B state of mind! i've been there so i can feel your frustration but please consider this...right now it sounds like you're dealing with wrong headed male animal whose pride is involved with his stupidity. another words he's wrong and is proud of it! sorry but it's a man thing...a very immature man thing by the way.

given this is a possability, may i respctfully suggest that at times it falls to the mature person in the relationship to exibit the common sense needed to swing thing back to where they belong? not fair i know but if you want marry "one of us" you have to realize that this may need to be come a considerastion.

look, if plan B is where you feel that you need to be, then do it but do it text book right! do it with love while explaining all the things that he should understand on his own...in other words, speak to him as you would a child!

just remember...once you move to plan B you will have put yourself in a faily structured postion and your success will be determined by sticking to the rules!

good luck and do try to have some happiness on your anniversary!

coach

Thank you so much for your post, coach.

I'm feeling a little bit better and a little bit stronger. I would be lost if it wasn't for this site and the wonderful posters here.

Okay, okay, he's not a narcissistic pig -- he's just in the fog. Okay, I will Plan A until I can execute a good Plan B. That will probably be another month -- ugh! But at least he will leave with a good feeling for me and that will only benefit our baby.

Not sure if we'll have any happiness today, but things look a little bit brighter for me than this morning. Thanks again!

Yes, sometimes men think with the wrong head. But there seem to be some women out there who do that too...???
When I spoke with Steve Harley a few weeks ago, I discussed how I too thought my WS was a narcissist. One thing he told me is that people in affairs are indeed in a narcissistic state of mind. That there is something about the situation itself that brings it out. In other words, our spouses might not be true narcissists in the truest sense of the word...
Semantics, I know, when you're dealing with the fog.
Don't you want to just SHAKE him sometimes and tell him to look at what he has? A woman who loves him SO much, that she is willing to endure ALL OF THIS PAIN to try to make things work with the man she loves? And that little cherub in his/her crib??? What about that dear, sweet, innocent baby?
What's with these people?
The fog....
lbc, I am sorry for the pain you're feeling. I know that anniversary feeling. We just had our 12th, which we skipped. It was pretty awful.
One word of advice: Listen to Coach on the Plan B. Do it by the book. We've been having contact with each other and I've just not done as well as I should.
{{{{lbc}}}}

Thanks, Susan. Yeah, it's hard to know if it's the fog that is talking or if I'm dealing with a true narcissist. I will keep working Plan A as if he's not, but I am keeping my ears and eyes open.

Now, I'm wondering if this is a pattern with WS. He seems to have 5-year relationships, then gets into an EA. This might be the first PA for him, but then I only hear his side, right?

I tried to dig a little deeper last night and the man is good. I started to believe that there isn't a pattern and that his problems started with a relationship he had 10 years ago. This morning, though, I'm going back to pattern theory.

Oh, I was okay with skipping the anniversary. Can you imagine he wanted to see OW that day? The nerve! I have not said one word all the other times he has seen her, couldn't he give me just one day? Well, he stayed home and we went out for dessert. Too bad everything he said or did just reminded me of OW. I've been crying for the past three days.

Susan, I don't remember reading any of your posts, so I'm not familiar with your situation, but I'll try to find some of your threads.
Thanks for your thoughts and (((hugs))) to you as well.

So how was Retrouvaille? I had high hopes that you could work through a lot of your stuff this weekend. Please let me know how it went.
Be strong in your Plan A. Is he still having contact with the OW? I know how that just eats your heart.
Hugs,

Thank you so much for asking about Retrouvaille. I was gonna post on that thread. It was unbelievable. These past two weeks have been hell. I actually thought I was doing a good Plan A for about a month up till then, but when I saw in black and white (WS' bank statement) where they went and when, it just tore me up inside. The first week, I couldn't stop crying and last week, I couldn't stop LB'ing.

When I was LB'ing, all I could hear was MB'ers saying to get ahold of myself, but I just couldn't. It was like I was watching another person -- lots of snide, sarcastic remarks.
I had lost hope. I lost hope that WS even wanted the M or even if he loved me. I lost hope that I could do a good Plan A.

Even as we were getting ready to leave for the weekend, I couldn't keep my anger in check. I knew there was a chance he would throw up his hands and say he wasn't going, but like I said, I just couldn't stop myself.

I arrived on Friday night dejected. In my mind, if I didn't see any hope by Saturday afternoon, I was planning to ask WS to take us home. But we were there and we decided that this weekend would just be about honesty. Wherever that may lead us. Because of our baby, I told him we needed to stay friends no matter what happened to our M.

Well, we did the program and it was frustrating. I still was not seeing any hope by lunch time on Saturday. I was actually seething while we ate our meal, but we stayed. It wasn't until 10:30pm that night that I saw a glimmer of hope. WS did want to work on the M and he did love me. He said he wanted to talk about the A, but didn't want to hurt me anymore. He talked a little bit about his childhood sexual abuse, but he really wasn't ready to go there.

So I asked him about the A. He didn't want to say much, but I told him I would ask him to stop if it was too hurtful for me. Alot of the weekend is about letting go of anger and resentment and I think the message was finally finding its way into my heart. I was not ready to forgive, but I was willing to be his friend even for a little while.

We talked and I was surprised that I could hear what he had to say without LB'ing at all and he was grateful that he could talk to someone about it.

Later, as we got ready to go to sleep, I asked him if we would be able to make love again. I didn't mean at that moment, I just meant in the future and he said yes. I could feel myself wanting him and we started to caress each other. We did not have intercourse, but he came.

It's been 2 years since I actually 'wanted' to be with WS. I never say no, but it had been a long time that I felt the need for him.

I told him that that had changed for me and I tried to explain how and why. He was blown away by my answer and I believe that was his turning point.

My turning point came the next day. Again, we were talking about the future and how we wanted to work on the M and we were surprised that our dreams were so similar. We started to make love again, but we didn't get very far. WS wanted to explore what I told him the night before. We talked for a long time and finally he said, "That is a fantasy, right?"

My God! That hit me like a ton of bricks. To be honest, no. I really thought I could do it, but when he said it could/would stay a fantasy, my answer appeared.

I have major trust issues that have nothing to do with WS. I had been blaming him, but these are things that took place many, many years ago. I had no idea. The reason our intimacy stalled 2 years ago was that I didn't trust WS. I didn't trust him not to let me go too far. But when he said, "It's a fantasy," I knew I could trust him with all of me.

I feel closer to WS today than I did on our wedding day. We did not leave the weekend with our problems resolved. I did not ask him for anything. I did not even ask him to stop seeing OW. He knows that is what the program asks and he said he will just take it one day at a time. That is how he got sober (15 years without AA), so I'm hoping he can do it again with OW.

BUT I'm not pinning my hopes on that. At this moment, I believe I can do a good plan A. I may be weak at times, but I do have hope. And sometimes that is all we need.

I recommend Retrouvaille to all hurting couples. I did not believe it could help us with the A still ongoing, but it was an extraordinary experience.

http://www.retrouvaille.org

WOW! What an experience. I'm not Catholic, but I want to look into that!
Boy, I can sure relate to what you're going through. I had to go through a "waiting period" while he sorted things out. I did a good Plan A. But he decided to stay with the M but could not (WOULD NOT) cut contact. She called day and night and it put him in this huge funk, which of course put me in a worse funk. Knowing they were talking to eachother was more than I could bear. I REALLY FEEL FOR YOU NOW! I remember how awful that was.
Now that I am trying the Plan B (though we still have limited contact with eachother--I know....I know....) I feel MUCH better. On the one hand I am terrified I may lose our marriage and our lives together, but not having her and the A in my face all the time is very peaceful. I am looking at all options, including the possiblity of moving on. I've gotta do that--he certainly is. I'm trying to grow myself as a person. I want to be stronger.
I've also got to watch what he does here. Can he genuinely feel for my pain. I don't know. But my therapist says that is really pivotal. If he lacks the ability to really empathize with me, then how much intimacy is possible for us? And I have been craving that for a long, long time.
So is there a day when he will "decide"? Remember that Plan B is YOUR decision. If you can't handle Plan A anymore, and he won't end contact, you've GOTTA do it. You life is a living hell right now, I know. Are you having problems with anxiety? I never have in my life but it became nearly incapacitating. Are you on any meds for depression? I got a head start on them when this went down. It took about three weeks but when they kicked in....wow. It really helps. It takes a while, so you should think about it.
It sounds like your weekend helped make some deposits in that Love Bank. At least the two of you have some kind of understanding of the issues between the two of you.
LBC, live on the fence. I am. If you're like me, you'll have days you want a divorce and days when you'll do anything to save the marriage. I just imagine myself sitting on my little perch on top of the fence. It is not ideal (especially when you need sleep) but you'll do it because of your adorable little baby. You've put time into the marriage--take time to decide to get out or fix it. If you're like me, you want to decide NOW. I am just that way. But in this instance, I've learned to be patient. (Not really--I'm going nuts, but I am a LITTLE more patient than I was.)
As for sexuality, for women, it is much more related to overall intimacy, which is related to trust. We don't "sportf_ _ k" like guys can--at least not as well. When your intimacy stalled, so did your desire. That makes perfect sense. Right now you need to do what feels right for you, inside, not what you think he'll want. I know with his first affair, having sex after I found out took time. It was intensely emotional, and not entirely in a positive way! Everyone is different, but your inner voices will tell you what to do if you listen.
{{{{LBC}}}}
Take Care,

Thank you, Susan. It's not easy. Even after 24 hours, the doubts started creeping in again. They gave us an exercise to do every night. It has nothing at all with trying to solve problems, it's just to get your feelings validated. WS wanted to talk about the A. I told him that maybe this week could be just practicing the exercise and we can talk about the A next week. He got upset because ?? I was trying to control him?? Not sure. I know he needs to talk about the A, heck I will need to talk about it, but can't he just spare my feelings for just one week? He did acknowledge that it could be hurtful to me, but he still wanted to do it. Is that narcissism? Wouldn't any other person just honor my request?

But we went ahead and did it. It was very surprising. He wanted to talk about the A, but that's not what transpired. He identified the stress, anxiety, and chaos that has pretty much been a constant his entire life. Although, he is a pretty aware person, he was learning something new about himself. Again, that gives me hope.

Susan, you don't have to be Catholic to attend Retrouvaille. It is led by a priest and is Christian-based, but there were people there that were not Catholic.

I know WS is talking to OW. Well, I can't say that for sure. I looked at his cell this morning. The call log has her name a zillion times, but I can't tell if that means she is calling or he called. I will have to find out how his phone works. But then I question looking at his phone. I think it will tear down my resolve to do a good Plan A. I know whenever we are not together, he could be talking to her or when he leaves the house, he could be going to her, but maybe it would be better that it just stay in my imagination. Not to get any concrete proof. Maybe I need to do that to do a good Plan A. I will see if I can stop snooping.

Yes, I will need to hear WS express some kind of regret or sorrow, then I will know we have started recovery. He does know that some of his actions hurt me, so I still have hope we will get there.

I can totally see WS not wanting to 'hurt' OW and not deciding anything for a long time, so that's why I'm thinking I will just give Plan A a month. But my therapist may not agree. No, I don't usually have problems with anxiety (that is WS), but I think I'm used to functioning with a low-grade depression anyway.

Actually, I've always thought of myself as thinking "like a man" where sex was concerned. Sometimes I felt bad because I didn't need those lovey-dovey, gushy feelings. But this weekend, I realized I need them just like everyone else.

We have not had intercourse, yet. I'm not sure if he doesn't want it or if he's worried about me. I'm trying to search my heart and soul for the way I feel about it. I told him I thought I would break down the first time we were together again, but now I'm not so sure and I don't know why. Am I willing to do anything just to keep him? Maybe -- and that scares me.

Hi LBC,
I hope your WS isn't like mine, but there are some similarities. But also, some cause for hope.

Mine wanted to talk about the A, even though it was hurtful to me. I wanted to also. For me, living on the fence is not easy, as I have said before.

What a number of people observed is that he was trying to get me to make his decision for him. Like yours, he wasn't going to leave her. Nor was he going to leave me. Not ready to make a decision? You betcha he's not! And he may never be. If your situation is like mine, and I PRAY it is not, you'll eventually decide you can no longer handle it. If they can't decide, than it is time for Plan B. I SO hope you don't get to this point because I nearly lost my sanity.

The fact that he is identifying some things in his family of origin and earlier in his life is promising. At least he is looking at himself and thinking that is a good place to start. Is he in IC?

You do need to stop snooping. You already know he's in an affair. And he will tell you when its over. I'm not saying NEVER snoop--once it IS over, then you need to check up on him from time to time--but right now, it will make you crazy. So you find her name on his phone. How do you feel? Does that change anything? I used to get hugs bouts of anxiety when I was in that phase of this. He would leave the house and I would be consumed with what I THOUGHT he was doing. Even though I was probably right, it wasn't healthy. So I told myself, "Nothing is happening now that hasn't BEEN going on."

I had a low grade depression before this, and never any anxiety. My doc prescribed Lexpro. It is an antidepressant but helps with anxiety. It has been a Godsend. It took a full two to three weeks to REALLY notice a difference, but BOY did it! You might want to check it out!

I am really hoping for the best for you. I REALLY understand your pain. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />
Hugs,

Hi Susan,

I took the day off yesterday to take my daughter to the doctor and to go to my therapy appointment. WS has an important presentation at work today, so he needed time to work on that. When we got back from the doctor, though, he wanted to do a little shopping. We came back, had lunch, and the baby went to sleep. He talked about a past relationship and I started to feel bad. I told him that I hope he would talk about me that way one day and he assured me that he does (to whom? OW? ugh!).

Well, I went to see my therapist and I was surprised she didn't knock me on the side of the head. She said I wasn't in denial and that I was trying to take care of myself. She admitted that she would never let her H stay if he had an A, but she knew that the answer was different for different people. She said I could skip next week. I guess I'm not as messed up as I thought.

I can imagine the situation WS' are in. Not many people want to decide to leave their spouses. That's what my therapist said: an ultimatum takes the responsibility off WS to decide who he is going to be with.

But as I tell WS, he may not be the one to decide at all. I, or even OW, may not be able to live like this much longer.

I hear you on the Plan B and I think Plan A will be a time to get myself psyched up to do a good Plan B.

WS is not in IC. I keep telling him to go. He does have a therapist that he hasn't seen in about a year. I'm sure he would be too embarrassed to tell her what he's done, but she really helped him 5 years ago and I just wish he would go back. I'm almost to the point of making the appointment for him.

I did check his text messages yesterday. OW is saying stuff like, "I'm scared" and "I don't hate you, but I'm butt crazy for you". (Can you tell she's young?) I figure WS told her he's thinking about 'everything'. Maybe he even said he wasn't gonna see her this week, but I'm not keeping my hopes up. I KNOW he's not seeing her today. I saw an email where he made plans with another friend. Tomorrow will be the real test. I don't think I will be consumed by anxiety, though, but I won't know till then.

You know, it doesn't kill me to see her name on his phone a zillion times a day. I must be strange, but I know they are both hurting. I don't see her as an evil person. She is young and although she is a psychologist (not licensed), she doesn't see the narcissitic qualities, yet. I blame WS more. He is older -- he is taking advantage of her naivete. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I'm sorry to read that Susan is still on Plan B. Like both of you my WS had a hard time deciding. He continued to see her and tell her that he is leaving me and at the same time, he is telling me that he wants to work on a relationship with me. I was on plan A (not perfect) for almost a year. Things changed course after I decided that I have had it with Plan B(I could only stand it for one month. I could not do a good plan B because of the children) and started hammering out the details of the divorce.

He came to me and told me that he wanted to work things out between the two of us. He broke up with the OW (8/30/03), I know because she asked to meet with me twice and I agreed.

My WS is still living on his own but have been spending a lot of time around the house. He still gets defensive about accountability of his time. We have gone out on three dates. Tomorrow would have been our 17th wedding anniversary but I stopped counting when I found out about his affairs in August 2002.

The reason for him continuing to live alone is that I wanted him to be absolutely sure that this is what he wanted. I did not want to put the kids thru changes in our living routine and have him decide later that he wants to move out again. Right now we are dating.....Kind of weird and it hurts everytime he says goodnight. He tells me that he wants to move in and work on the marriage.

I am not assured that WS and OW have not have any contact. He tells me absolutely that they are not. Unfortunately, for me I can't seem to take his word for it and I am afraid that I may have gotten to the point of having my love bank drained.

I agree with SusanBT that there is some sort of peace when doing plan B when WS continues to see the OW. If you plan A too long, you will lose all the love that you have left for them.

Good luck to both of you....

Thank you for your reply, supermom. I keep telling myself, one more week of Plan A, then that is it, but something happens and I end up going another week.

It's been such a rollercoaster and that's just this weekend! I suspect WS is saying the same thing to both of us. Telling me that he still loves me and acting like he wants to work on the M and at the same time, stays out till 3am on Friday with her!

We went to a post-session for Retrouvaille on Saturday and we are still in the 'wondering if we will stay together' catagory. I finally lost it on the way home and he was so reassuring -- a**hole!

Last week, her text msgs were "I'm scared" and "I don't hate you" and now they are "I miss you" and "buenas noches mi amor", so you know she is reassured, as well.

But the narcissistic WS may have felt something. He did a role play with OW and they played each other. The game turned serious very quickly and he found himself telling her, "Jerk!" and "A**hole!" He knows she never said that to him, but he finally felt how he is hurting both of us through his selfishness.

On Saturday, I told him that we may not finish the post-sessions and he was surprised. Does he really think we'll just cruise along like this for another three months?

I guess I can answer my own question. Yes, because he's been doing it for the past two!

Just remember it is the hardest thing to follow through with what you decide to do when you are in deep fear that you could possibly lose what you have been fighting for all this time.

My WH are going through the same rollecoaster and I am finally tired of trying hard to make it work. I'm filing the divorce papers today. We had a long talk and he acknowledges that all this whole year he has not done a thing to change his ways that he feels may have contributed to my resentment towards him. I have finally informed him of his sel-centeredness and selfishness in a directness that he is looking at me like "Wow, she finally notice that I am this person and she has had it."

I am sad that I have to do this. I hope it will wake him up before it is too late. I am prepared though if this is how it is going to end. I have wanted to pick-up the phone to see if he is doing okay but, I have to be strong and take tnis stand once and for all.

It has been a year (Plan A, Plan B, allowing him to have cake and eat it too..)and I need to move on at this point.

Me 41
WH 41

Numerous affairs (longest one lasted 6 years)(felt passion and serious love for the last one), one night stands, flirting at parties and make-out sessions with different women since the beggining of marriage

2D 1S

Don't think marriage ever happened (I just felt this way when I found out about everything), known each other for 20 years, Married 17 years

Thank you, supermom. I know I have alot of fear in losing WS, but there have been moments when it was gone and I was so peaceful. I think if I go to Plan B, that will be goodbye for me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I'm sorry to hear about your divorce. Have you done Retrouvaille? Apparently, couples have stopped divorce proceedings afterwards. WS wants some kind of guarantee that we will have the kind of relationship he wants. Heck if I know! Maybe I won't want it. We kinda touched on that yesterday.

((Hugs)) to you, supermom. I can see my future in your past. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Hi lbc and supermom,

How are things going. Are you still surviving in Plan A, lbc? I know how horrible it is. I had so much anxiety I could hardly move. Now it's depression. Some swap! I am glad you're showing WH that you have some doubts. I do think these guys need to know that no matter how hard we are trying to meet their ENs, they are perilously close to losing it all. My WH sure needs to know that. I am trying to decide if I should tell him how close I am to throwing in the proverbial towel.

Supermom, did you file those papers? What was his response? I can't even imagine living in the agony you have for an entire year. YOU DESERVE BETTER.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> WE ALL DESERVE BETTER!!!!!!!!!!

You know, I see my future in supermom's post too.

Hey, we could be the Ex-wives club! Different men, but all a$$h0lzz....can we tell them apart from one another? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hi Susan,

I'm glad you checked in. Sorry to hear about the depression. I feel like I've barely begun to process what has happened in the past two months. Still Plan A'ing my butt off. WS made the hurtful remark that he needs to see me change. Can you believe that?! Yeah and I need you to stop screwing someone else. He knew how hurt I was and later on acknowledged that what I'm going through has been difficult. Well, thanks alot.

In one of our Retrouvaille assignments, he said that he admires my strength. That gave me a bit more hope and I'm starting to feel confident in my life again.

That might be because WS has not seen OW in 10 days, though. Never mind the only reason is because his mom was staying with us for a week. I'm sure he wasn't looking forward to explaining why he is coming in at 3am!

Their text messages actually slowed down the past couple of days, but maybe because they know they will see each other at work today. WS is finally going back after 7 weeks off. I told him I was nervous about that and WS said that OW is transferring to another program in another building in the next city. He made it sound like I should be reassured, but I told him that there is always the phone and they could still rearrange their schedules to be together.

Oh, I had a very interesting conversation with our MC last week. WS didn't want to go because he couldn't agree to NC, yet, so I went alone. We decided to stop MC until WS agreed to NC. MC kept asking me about addictions and I couldn't figure out what he was talking about until it hit me the next day. He thinks WS is a love addict!

That has been something else I'm grappling with. Now, I'm trying to find whatever I can on love addictions and codependency. MC also said that a good predictor of recovery (the AA model) is if the person has a job and a partner. I'm wondering if he means I should stay with WS as long as I can. No Plan B soon? He mentioned a timeline of 3, 6, or 12 months, but maybe he was talking about WS actually being in recovery. WS is in denial at the moment. I haven't even asked him if he thought he could be a love addict. I don't think he could hear it at this point.

And I was blown away by the MC saying that I may be emotionally healthier than WS. WS has been going to therapy for 10 years and can easily access any feeling he has. Actually my friend mentioned this to WS when we first met -- I think WS was offended. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Like I say, I'm taking it one day at a time. And, today, yes I'm still in Plan A.