Are we supposed to ignore our feelings and needs during Plan A? I'm starting to need things from WS. I want the same amount of quality time he has with OW. I can't stand the thought of them 'chatting' for 4 hours a DAY while I try to get an hour from him after the baby goes to sleep at midnight.

Is it unrealistic to ask him to be able to see things from my side at this time? Is he still in the fog? Am I supposed to just concentrate on his needs for talking and analyzing without considering if my feelings are validated or not?

I do have to amend this. We are doing the Retrouvaille dialogues everyday and that is a place for my feelings to get heard. It's just that my need to talk about the A and for this A to end is getting greater and greater. That is all I want to talk about. Should I, instead, be working on the issues of our M?

It's getting to the point where I feel he is stringing both of us along. We get upset with the situation and he's very good at reassuring us. Even today, I was seriously considering going to Plan B, but then he holds out a carrot, saying he didn't think A was a fling before, but now it's crossed his mind.

Do I keep him talking? Today, he was talking about her family situation and I wonder if it sounded as awful to him as it did to me.

I found myself screaming in my car on the way to work. Can Plan A just hurt too much to work? Can I hurt myself too much emotionally by being in Plan A too long? My therapist even suggested I may be too strong. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

He is totally open to working on the M and exploring our individual issues (he quit MC, though). Should I continue doing this and stay in Plan A?

I have to say my Plan A has not been perfect. We had a good streak of about 10 days last week, but I usually LB about once a week. At least he's acknowledged how difficult this has been for me. That's new. He is starting to change his thinking about love and relationships, too, and realized that all relationships are magical in the beginning.

Do I just wait out this A?

lbc,

Unfortunately, you haven't been in Plan A long enough to know if it's going to work.

You won't get your needs met in Plan A, at least in the early stages. This time is for you to make yourself the best spouse you can, and to show WS you can meet his most important EN's. In the A, he feels his needs are being met by OW. Plan A, given time, will turn that around.

Watch your LB's. Take good care of yourself and your baby, and do the best Plan A you can.

There are no guarantees, but this has worked for me and for others here. You don't want to rush to Plan B. It will be there for you later if you need it, but it is an ultimatum, given as a last resort, and it has great risks attached to it.

Hang in there, and try to focus on doing something positive for yourself when you feel needy. Looking to WS for that at this point will not get you the results you want.

Misty

Just want you to know I'm right there with you. Reading your story is reliving mine. Thats something I told WS last night you get on here and its the same story told a hundred different ways. He thinks his situation is unique and he's the only person in the world, ya right. I too am fed up with plan A and am not sure its working at all as WS still thinks OW is the best thing since sliced bread. He realizes its fantasy but it still feels so good. He's with me.... thats it with me, not doing a whole lot for us just working on him him him. Then I get fed up and say something, not lbing of course just my feelings, and he reiterates how much he doesn't feel for me but wants to work it out right after he's worked himself out. Then he throws me the carrot usually for a whole day he'll be a different person then right back into the old routine. I feel like he's dragging me down until he decides what he wants.
I don't know if this is happening to you but it use to be I'd have a bad day and then a "honeymoon" period were I thought things were going so well. Now I find the bad days are coming closer and closer and the "honeymoon" is shorter and shorter. What I want to know is why now 16 months later it hurts more then the beginning, it just takes so much out of me.
I talked to WS last night and he agreed we need a plan and then for my sake I need a comittment on what he is willing to do and what he is not. That way I can see what I can live with and without. Now I feel like he says he will do something then doesn't follow through he says he never committed to it.
Last night he admitted to me that sometimes he just feels like giving up, this hurt although I sometimes feel the same way so go figure.
Of course in the next sentence he says he just wants to stop being so lost and find himself.
Sorry your going through this too but thanks for letting me know I'm not alone.
km4
me 39
ww 44
married 17 years
2 boys 11 and 4
ow was my best friend

Thank you for your responses. I think we need a Plan A support thread. This has been the hardest thing I've EVER done. It goes against every instinct in my body, but I decided to try this path because it has worked for others.

If I'm honest, though, I have seen some changes in WS. Plan A has given him hope for our M (before the A our M was crap) and he is willing to work on our issues. Today he said, "It would be a shame if we broke up." But half the time I'm thinking he would be gone if OW had a penny to her name. Perhaps this is my low self-esteem talking. Some days I feel like OW is no competition for me, but then I trigger and I fall apart.

mistymars: I really appreciate your response. How long were you in Plan A? How do people do it? I told WS that I just can't believe my husband is in love with someone else. Yes, I do realize I need to start taking care of myself. I've just been consumed with this A. I just needed to hear that I should not be expecting much from WS at this time. I guess things were going so well, that I wanted more.

km4: I'm so sorry to hear you are in the same place. I'm not too sure if we've been doing the honeymoon pattern. When I have a bad day, I seem to do okay if I remove myself from the situation. WS doesn't really do anything differently. If I don't LB, then he feels it's safe to share with me, that's about the only difference. What is your WS' old routine? My WS is trying to find himself, too, but he does not want to hear the word 'addict'. Hmmm...hard to go into recovery if you're in denial. I just get tired of concentrating on him all the time. I guess my turn is when the A is over, but I don't know if I have the stamina.

IBC
I know exactly how you feel. In fact I was just talking to WH Monday night about this. He recently broke his A off (less than a week ago, and I'm so afraid he'll "fall off the wagon"), and I remained by his side, while he went thru some tough ups and downs. Sickening in a way, how a devoted spouse can help the WS through a breakup with another. Yes, I had to just put my feelings aside, and as hard as it was, just be a friend to my husband. My husband has realized that his A is most likely an addiction, and he is still having a terrible time accepting the breakup.

The entire weekend was great, and we even discussed how he and I would carry on living in the same house. (We've been living separately for the last 6 wks.) He said he still needs to see his own IC, but that we would definately need MC. But, Monday night we got into a little discussion, and I ended up getting emotional, and we both decided that maybe we shouldn't be in the same house while he tries to heal himself.

A little later in the evening, H asked me what I was most upset about. I told him that I understood that he was having a hard time and that I was trying to support him thru it, but at the same time, it never seemed to dawn on him that the way the OP treated him (lies, cheating, games, etc...), was exactly what I had been going thru for the last 6 months. He said that he knew that and that he was sorry. I told him that my feelings were never justified and that I was to just put my feelings, anger, and hurt on the back burner...

So, we decided that I would continue to stay at my MIL's for a little while, and give him some more space. In the meantime, he has to work with this girl, until he can get his shift changed, and she doesn't seem to be getting the hint that they're done. She continues to want to talk to him, and he's always commenting that she may stop by after work... She's so needy that she tells him anything to get him back, and it's worked at least 2 times before.

Plan A frustrates me, too. I'm sitting here, telling myself, that if he even leaves the door open for her, I am done with Plan A, and on to Plan B... but, on the same token, I absolutely know he knows there's no future with her and that she treats him like crap. So, why is he so unsure of the decision he has made?

This A has consumed me, as well. And, if I don't keep myself busy each day, I feel like just getting in my car and never coming back. I think your right when you say "my turn is when A is over." I'm just waiting for H to commit 100% to the M and to MC, and soon...

Some days, I'm stronger than others, I just remind myself that my M is so worth the fight!!!

Mother of Pearl

Mother of Pearl: Thank you for your response. I wish you much luck that WS can stay away from OW. I envy you that WS can see OW is a liar, etc. My WS is totally in love with OW and does not think she is a bad person. Actually, I don't think she is a bad person, either, just very young.

As far as staying in Plan A, I think over the past couple of months I always had some kind of hope that would carry me through. When I first suspected the EA, I immediately went into action, finding an MC, signing up for Retrouvaille, etc. Then when the PA was confirmed, I held on waiting for the Retrouvaille weekend to give me some clarity on what to do. The weekend boosted our hope and then a couple of weeks later, my mother-in-law stayed with us for a week. Because she was here, WS could not see OW. Wouldn't be easy to explain to Mom why WS was coming home at 3am. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> We had time to talk because MIL could watch the baby, etc. I felt him disconnecting from OW and turn toward the M. BUT he went back to work this week and it feels like the flames of the A have been fanned again -- ugh!

I don't think I can sit idly by while he is in this A. I will need some indication that he is willing to work on our M. I don't know if an MC will work with us if he is still seeing OW, but I plan on asking WS to go with me. Already, it's been difficult finding time for us to talk while he snatches 20 minutes on the drive home to talk to OW!

lbc,
Bad news for me... WH did indead "fall off the wagon." Actually, the OW continued to get in his face at work and insisted that she let him explain some of their "miscommunications" (uh LIES) that led to the breakup. Just as I had suspected, and has happened at least two times before when WH left her, she came crawling back, crying on his shoulder, and he fell for it... again.

So, now, the doors are wide open for WH again. He's back on that fence, wondering which side has greener pastures.

I, too, want to go to MC with WH, and he knows we need it, but, does it really work when the A is still on? I know my WH wants to be 100% committed to the M before he partakes in MC with me. He is going to IC, though, and really likes it. I'm going to start as well. I've been once, but I'm such a wreck right now, I need all the help I can get.

I was so close to executing Plan B last night, even wanted to throw all his stuff out on the front lawn... but then I had to remind myself of Plan A, and conquer on...

Where do we get the strength?

Mother of Pearl

Good question, Mom (MotherofPearl!)

Where DO we get our strength? I don't have any any more!

LBC, I completely understand how you feel. It is SO horrible. I remember how I would just "know" when they were talking to each other, and when they were together. And the fact that he had the audacity to do it even after I found out about the A and he saw how it broke my heart. It takes a certain amount of narcissism. I remember Steve Harley telling me that there is a certain narcissistic state that these guys are in when they're in "the fog." I do wish I understood that a little better because I am sure resent it and YOU DO TOO!
I know you've thought about a time limit. Would it be helpful if the two of you discussed that idea? I don't know, but maybe it would be helpful if you knew an end was in sight. I think the important part, however, is that you know that YOU set the time. You need to be in control, as it is about dealing with YOUR pain.
On the other hand, you've made some progress. I do think that sometimes these Cake Eaters need their hands forced.
Hang in there, girl!!!!!

Thanks, Susan and Mother of Pearl. We went to a post-session for Retrouvaille on Saturday and all hell was breaking loose. WS suggested we not even go, but I made him walk into that room. If he can have his cake and eat it too, then I at least get to attend this session. I was on the verge of tears through the whole thing and had so much anger. I just continued seething until we went home and went to bed.

Yesterday, WS made breakfast and I still was upset. I demanded that he do something for me, so we went on a drive. It actually started okay in a way. We stopped at an open house around the corner from us and we couldn't believe the price they were asking for that house. I starting talking about if we broke up, there is no way I could afford to buy another home in our neighborhood. WS said he would never force me to leave our home, etc. Even though, we were talking about financial stuff if we were to break up, we tried to do it in a loving way.

But as we continued on our drive, I started wondering if WS drove the same route with OW and the LB'ing began again. I wanted WS to take me to lunch and he started talking about a crab place that I didn't know existed. He wasn't sure where it was either, so I told him, "At least I know you didn't take her there." I just couldn't let go of my anger. But WS just took it the whole day.

We did manage to have a nice lunch and didn't talk about anything serious. We then decided to go to the pumpkin patch across the street. WS even asked someone to take a pic of us and our baby. I've noticed we haven't had a pic of us together in a long time.

Luckily, our baby's bedtime is earlier because WS is working again and he has to take her to my mom's in the morning. Now, we are able to have some time to ourselves in the evenings and we did our Retrouvaille dialogue.

I'm really trying to let my anger go if only for those 10 minutes. I did bring up the A again in my dialogue, but I felt WS was able to listen.
We then talked at length after that. Well, mostly WS talked. He actually said that he wanted to end the A last week, but he is having a hard time letting go of someone who is giving him everything he needs emotionally.

He didn't want to tell me, but he said he was planning to end the A this week. Her last day in his building is Wednesday and then she is going to another program in the next city.

He told me a bit more about their relationship. They have discussed moving out together and marriage (ugh!). Apparently she is looking for an apartment and he wants her to get it even if they break up. He also told her the concerns he has for their relationship in the future, so it doesn't seem like he's completely blinded by love. He feels he has helped her self-esteem because prior to him, she never felt valued for her heart and mind, only her body.

But considering her issues, he is worried that she will act out if he breaks up with her, i.e. going out immediately with other men. They have discussed her attraction to other men even at the height of their A.

I told him that I'm not dumb and I'm sure he has told her a whole litany of reasons of why he doesn't want to commit to our marriage.
He said he doesn't mean to lead us on, but that these are his feelings when he is with me. He did acknowledge that they could flip-flop today when he sees her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

My only consolation is that it doesn't seem like he 'needs' to see her all the time. He asked me to pick up our daughter on Friday and that is traditionally 'their' day, but he met me after work. And again, today, I offered to pick up our baby after work, but he said that he would do it. I will have to ask him if he is looking for reasons not to spend alot of time with OW.

I really am trying to see things realistically. I know WS is in love with OW and if the A were to end, he would have to find that love for me. I guess I still have enough hope to try to make Plan A work.

One reason I flip-flop so much in my peace/anger is that I usually check his text messages. When they drop off or WS doesn't call OW, I'm elated and hopeful. But then the 'I love you's' go back and forth and I'm devastated.

I've decided not to check them anymore. If our marriage is going to have a chance, I need to stay calm and in control. I can't be LB'ing at the drop of a hat.

So at this moment, I am comfortable in my Plan A.

Mother of Pearl: I'm so sorry about the setback. How long have you been in Plan A? Whenever I'm on the verge of Plan B, it's when I'm so unbelievably angry, but I try to remember that is absolutely the wrong time to go into Plan B. I try to say, "Okay, I'll do Plan A a little while longer until I can execute a good Plan B in three weeks (or whatever)."

I've heard MCs do not want to do marriage counseling while an A is still going on, but I'm sure there are some that would consider it. WS had a good analogy. He said he went to therapy when he was drinking. Some therapists will not work with alcoholics, but if you stop drinking before you see a therapist, didn't you accomplish what you needed to do?

WS said that as he continued his therapy, he was able to quit drinking. That's how he sees the end of the A. If we work on our M, then his need for the A will diminish.

I told him, though, that there is a limit to how much I can do in this M while there is an OW. I explained that I know he needs a safe place to express his negative feelings, but I can't listen because my mind starts to spin. Is he saying this to list all the cons of our M? Is he saying this to justify his decision to be with OW? It takes an enormous amount of strength for me to listen in that case.

Susan: The continuing A has been the hardest thing for me. The common scenario is that when d-day arrives, the WS declares the A is over and wants to work on the A. It's the BS that needs convincing to stay. But in my case, WS is still not sure the A is wrong and never said he would end it until recently. I'm the one that had to push for working on our M.

As for a time limit, I think if I can do a good Plan A from this moment on, I will try to hang in for another month. As long as I feel WS is sincere about the situation (and I don't read the text messages), I probably can hang on for that long.

lbc,
When I first found out about the A, I was not familiar at all with MB. But, for some reason, it felt right to execute my own form of Plan A ( Stand by my Man), until I could really figure out what the h*^l was going on in that head of his. I found MB last month, and realized that's pretty much what I've been doing since June, but am still learning the real process and how to go about it without the LB's. Since the A has been going on for 6 months now, and has gone PA, the LB is becoming more and more difficult NOT to do.

Now, every once in a while, something happens that makes me so incredibly angry, that yes, I'm so ready to Plan B. If you catch my thread on General ? ("H's is so angry w/ his family, he doesn't trust me"), you'll get an example of what I mean. But, like you, I must remind myself that Plan B will not work if it is presented after a confrontation. We must Plan B at the right time and leave them with the most pleasant memory of the BS. So hard to do, I know.

Have you noticed a difference in your H since he quit drinking? My H needs to quit too, in fact he's never drank so much (besides in college), before in his life, and for some reason, he's almost always trashed when he's w/OW. That's fine, she can have him when he's three sheets to the wind, cuz I know what he's like when he's had too much to drink.

My H is in IC and is glad to be going. He told me last night that he knows that I do not like the way he is handling this situation and that I'd like for him to make a decision soon (baby due in 3 weeks), but that he is trusting his therapist to get him thru this. His therapist is correct when she tells him that I do not want him to make a decision quickly (perhaps to come back to me, because of baby), only to feel he made the wrong decision a few weeks later. I'm hoping that my H can also quit the drinking and that perhaps his meds for anti-D/anxiety, will give him some clarity, and he'll be able to really see that this mess that he's created is completely fixable. His therapist has told him that much.

My H flip-flops his feelings each day, too. Sometimes it's just a matter of minutes. He wants to be with her, then he wants to be with me... It's only a matter of time, I guess.

Thank you for your response. I've decided to think of myself as a single parent for now (I really have been already for the last 6 months), and to bring the baby home to stay with my older daughter at my MIL's. I've told H that, so at least he knows that if he intends to bond with his new baby, he'll need to make the effort.

Take care, lbc.
MOP

MOP: I totally understand about LB'ing. It's almost like I can't help it. But I'm noticing that not reading his text messages is helping me stay focused. Yesterday, I got a taste of what withdrawal is going to be like. WS was depressed at the thought of giving up the A, so I guess he is serious. Now, we'll just see if it happens.

Oh, WS quit drinking 15 years ago. I didn't know him then, but he did admit he has an addictive personality and loves anything intense, including the feelings in the A.

I'm glad your H is in IC. Mine really needs to go, especially if he stops the A. I know he will depressed, but he is really resistant. He is in the mental health field and doesn't want to go to a therapist. ?? He's gone for 10 years, but quit around the time our baby was born.

Good luck with the baby. You are so strong to be going through this!