Ok you've pretty much explained much of my concern and now I do see it is about perspective.

Yes your explanation helps a great deal.
Now I guess I just have to gear up for taking more from H and giving more and so on. There are some lines that I'm not clear about so I'm going to go back over the post.

It isn't because you didn't post them clearly but because I still have my own preconceived notions that limit my ability to accept in new ideas. So gotta clear out my thoughts first then review yours.

Anyway back to the drawing board as they put it. Oh you caught that part where I admitted that I didn't listened to somethng you said? Kinda hoped you flew past that line. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . Nothing gets past you. BTW, I managed to cook the lamb without sickening anyone. The recipe came out pretty good. Tasty. Have a good one. Thank you again.

<small>[ March 10, 2004, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: freetobe ]</small>

Freetobe,

Yeah I'm out here and I would but I'm very busy, group of friends is coming over and W is on a cleaning frenzy so I need to help out.

If I have time I'll post later.

Take Care,

J.

free: glad to hear the lamb turned out swell! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> I'll check back in tonight and then again tomorrow...hugs to you bud...awed

J: hope all went well last night!

Hi J-Hi awed18

How are you guys? I'm doing ok. Things are looking up, but I am still taking it slowly working on perspective.

Have a good weekend <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

Had a pretty good weekend.

Fri we went out had a nice date.

Sat cut and laid out tile for a small bar area.

Sun church, ran errands. She skipped on a bike ride we had planned w/ friends. I knew I should have still gone myself but decided it would be better if I stayed and finished up some more things around the house. Instead of riding I finished up the tile cuts, finished penciling the mural and did some miniature painting. Sun was a little more difficult because she was feeling down most of the day but would not talk about it. I tried not to let it get to me w/ partial success. There were some moments of resent but I did finally realize that I was focusing on the negative rather than looking for the positive.

How are you all?

Awed, I understand how hard it is to wait to find out about admissions. W is on pins and needles, she should find out this month. I really really hope she gets in. If she does not I dread what life will be like. I would be shocked if she was not admitted but who knows what other curve ball life will throw us.

Oh yeah, we had a MC app on thurs if I have time I will post what I can remember of it.

This will probably read a little "journally."

A lot was talked about at MC. What I have walked away with is a re affirmation that there are some very basic trust issues in our relationship. It affects how we view each other and how we communincate (or don't) w/ each other.

On my end, her history of depression, violent temper and DJs (as well as behavior that could be considered emotionally abusive) creates an unsafe environment for me to speak openly particularly when something that is important to me is in conflict with her goals or ideals.

Secondly there is the A. It is not that I think she will have another A or that she will contact OM. Even though her computer is locked to me this is not my fear. My fear is that in the past she has responded with some serious independent behavior when she is unhappy, often blaming me or the M and acting out against it. This has included verbal threats or plans of leaving. The EA was the worst of these. I do not trust her to react to problems in life in a way that actively takes me into consideration.

These issues are partially my responsibility. I say this because some of it is perception. I am seeing the history of behavior rather than focusing on the changes that are taking place. SHifting my perspective will help until the changes are sustained long enough to create a real feeling of trust. This is an uphill battle because when she exhibits past negative behaviors it erodes the little progress made recently.

On her end, she has very real trust issues. What it comes down to is that she does not trust people that can get close to her. This of course, includes me. There are reasons for this which, in my opinion, are made more severe by depression. Her unwillingness to trust feeds her loneliness and depression. As far as our M goes she does not believe that I will defend her, or that I have her aspirations and well being in mind. She blames our M for her career problems and unhappiness. These are issues I cannot take ownership off I can only offer to support a solution whole heartedly. I offer all of my support and I will do what she needs from me to feel safe enough to trust but the solution to how she chooses to see the problem will have to come from her.

Her dropping out of the bike ride on Sunday because she felt down was yet another reminder of how depression affects our relationship. I wish that her idea that her emotions should not affect me was true. It was another reminder of how at times she is not capable of meeting ENs <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Well I knew when we got married that depression would always play a part in our lives but I always thought it would get better. I never thought she would drop treatment. I guess the real problem I have is that she would go back into treatment if it affected her work or school but she won't if it affects our M. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />


Freetobe, after all of the discussion last week I am wondering how you are doing, drop a note if you can.

J.

Hi J. Yes I'm doing ok. I've been mostly reading your post but I hadn't replied.

We resumed SF but got into a bit of a stinker this weekend. Anyway, seems we are working past this, but still it is diffcult to know where things are going from this point.

I'm glad to hear that you and W went to MC. I'm
stepping out but will post a little later.

Hey,

How are you all doing?

It's been a strange few days. On the one hand lots of positive things. We are spending time together, talking etc.

On the other, trust continues to haunt me. After our conversation at lunch today I'm feeling kind of angry. I feel like I have been decieved from the start of the M. Again this goes beyond the A. Anyway, today after a couple of DJ's from her I stopped caring about LBs. I hit a point where I needed to vent and started asking her all sorts of questions about what marriage and vows meant to her.

I'm living w/ a woman that is just now learning what commitment is and is not sure if she can do it. That's a hard thing. The silver lining at least is that she says she wants to commit but cannot yet. To her commitment is a feeling to me it is a choice, feelings come and go.

Anyway, enough.

Freetobe, How have you been? what have you been up to, in dealing w/ your H?

take care,

J.

J:

good to hear from you...hope free is around soon because I worry about her when she's not here!

you're going through the stuff man...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm living w/ a woman that is just now learning what commitment is and is not sure if she can do it. That's a hard thing. The silver lining at least is that she says she wants to commit but cannot yet. To her commitment is a feeling to me it is a choice, feelings come and go. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

J:

good to hear from you...hope free is around soon because I worry about her when she's not here!

you're going through the stuff man...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm living w/ a woman that is just now learning what commitment is and is not sure if she can do it. That's a hard thing. The silver lining at least is that she says she wants to commit but cannot yet. To her commitment is a feeling to me it is a choice, feelings come and go. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Typical WS stuff...although granted, your W has other issues too...but this is normal in recovery...getting from "feelings" to "choices"...does that help?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> On the other, trust continues to haunt me. After our conversation at lunch today I'm feeling kind of angry. I feel like I have been decieved from the start of the M. Again this goes beyond the A. Anyway, today after a couple of DJ's from her I stopped caring about LBs. I hit a point where I needed to vent and started asking her all sorts of questions about what marriage and vows meant to her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">J: you know how I feel about this...every LB puts your M recovery back...frankly, puts you back too...

if you cannot change...you the strong one in the M...how can she? how are you providing leadership when you cannot change because of your feelings?

I'm not telling you anything I have not gone through myself...

keep going J...keep on working at it...when you breakthrough, the FREEDOM you experience will be worth the incredible pain, effort, etc.

Your taker is screaming to be fed...but you CAN ignore your taker...learn to value and respect your own power over yourself...to feed that power...your power to choose how to respond...to stop giving in to emotions...to choose your response based on what you think will best serve your needs...

sometimes, that is just walking away until you calm down...sometimes, it may be that you choose to react with anger...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well I knew when we got married that depression would always play a part in our lives but I always thought it would get better. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">nothing wrong with having hope! and she may yet choose to deal with things because she may yet come to value your M...don't lose hope at this early stage buddy...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Her unwillingness to trust feeds her loneliness and depression. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yes, and in this she is not unlike a whole lot of other WS...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As far as our M goes she does not believe that I will defend her, or that I have her aspirations and well being in mind. She blames our M for her career problems and unhappiness. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">again, typical WS crap...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> These are issues I cannot take ownership off I can only offer to support a solution whole heartedly. I offer all of my support and I will do what she needs from me to feel safe enough to trust but the solution to how she chooses to see the problem will have to come from her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">woo-hoo! awesome perspective...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I say this because some of it is perception. I am seeing the history of behavior rather than focusing on the changes that are taking place. SHifting my perspective will help until the changes are sustained long enough to create a real feeling of trust. This is an uphill battle because when she exhibits past negative behaviors it erodes the little progress made recently. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">excellent insight...please have patience...you need so much of it...gosh! have I already mentioned that???

seriously, yes...you need to focus on the positive...ignore the negative...get to the point of letting it wash over you...recovery is LONG...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My fear is that in the past she has responded with some serious independent behavior when she is unhappy, often blaming me or the M and acting out against it. This has included verbal threats or plans of leaving. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">this is fascinating...so tell me: how did you respond in the past? what is it exactly that you fear? how will you respond differently in the future?

this could be a real key for you, making you feel far more secure...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...creates an unsafe environment for me to speak openly particularly when something that is important to me is in conflict with her goals or ideals. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">your fear could be a serious factor in this...are you open to discussing this issue here?

don't want to cause any offence...feel free to tell me to back off! This is just one of the most important things I've heard you say...I wonder if you were able to address your fear if you could move beyond it...find your W far less threatening to you...and ergo, be able to balance loving her with detachment from her extensive problems...

my thoughts to you for today...hang in there...hope work is going better! awed

Hi guys. I've been good. I've been away for a little time. So I haven't posted as much as usual.

While I have been at peace personally, as it pertains to my M I am in utter turmoil. NO I haven't purchased the book awed. And because I've not been at home I haven't gotten an MC as of yet either.

I had a dream the other day that made me feel so weird. I haven't felt anything emotional or physical for my H in some time now. However the dream I had (not too much of a dirty one), reignited some feelings for him. I didn't want to feel "good" feelings for him. But if I don't feel good feelings for him, what is there left to salvage.

I tried to think things over, but I can't seem to get through to myself <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> . It is hard for me to believe that I am the same person that breathed MB concepts for breakfast lunch and dinner. Now it is like I'm an alien.

I seem to feel optimistic a little bit then I'm back at feeling anger and all those other emotions that cause me to not want this R/M.

In my head some times out of the blue I hear the words and the see the things that were done during the A and it haunts me. There is a part of me that says that my H has to pay or make up or make recompense for the things that he has done.

But there in lies another problem, if I went the route of making him pay could he ever really pay enough? Would my heart ever feel healed for the pain? or would I, like some ravenous monster want to repeatedly require that I treat him as harshly as I feel he treated me going on with repayment forever?

Yet I feel like I'm the rock stuck in a hard place, when I want to let him off the hook and just let it go, flasbacks enter my mind, (which is quite often), I'm back at being stuck in an angry stupor.

I know what I'm saying doesn't make sense. I'm in it and can't seem to reason it out, but it is just where I am for the moment. Yet I know someting has to change lest I breed more feelings of hatred that permeate from my H and I to our little one.

This is what has been going on with e for the past few days. But I'm not at the end of my rope, just dangling in confusion somewhere in a middle knot. I'm not avoiding MB. I've just been away and not having as much access to a PC.

I hope to post more soon. This is a vent for now.

<small>[ March 25, 2004, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: freetobe ]</small>

I would like tob believe that what she is telling me is typical WS speak. If I could then it would be easier to deal with. It seems that her "other issues" are really the heart of the matter. I am beginning to believe that those issues contributed to the EA as much as not meeting ENs. Her feelings about marriage being inhumane, stem from her career being jolted by our relocation to Colorado. Well, and the end of the EA as well. Once the negative effect of our move was felt she didn't look for a solution within the M she looked to get out. The EA was the worst she did, but not the first attack on our M. I can't pretend that these things don't hurt. Like I said, looking back I feel like I was decieved on our wedding day.

I'm trying to be as understanding as I can because I understand her past.

Understand I am venting this here because I can't vent it anywhere else. Things are actually moving ok between us. I am trying to focus on those but I can't neglect these feelings, I have to vent them and address them so that they do not become all consuming.

I'm open to discussing anything here.

How did I respond in the past?... First w/ shock and then I did my best to address the issue. I was not until much later that I realized how wrong those threats were. In the future? I will still address the issues that make her unhappy provided they are not selfish demands. As far as the threats go I would call her on it. I don't deserve that kind of treatment.

As far as fear goes, its like this... In order for truly honest communication an understanding environment needs to exist. She has a long history of LBing. What we have had in the past has been a poisonous judgemental, threatening environment. I understand my part in this, I contributed my share of selfish judgement an in the end it happened because I let it happen. Like freetobe said, we teach others how to treat us. I've been on the recieving end of her inability to control her anger for too long. It has changed, it has gotten better but it takes maintained change to rebuild trust and while she was in the fog of the A it got really bad sometimes.

Maybe its time for the LB questionaire..

There are good things going on. We are talking much more than we used to and we are listening more than we used to. We enjoy each others company, we find each other attractive, she has been trying to help with domestics more, We keep on working on turning our new house into a home and we talk about a shared future.

A while back, I was looking at the chaos in our bedroom and suggested that for our anniversary we put resources into getting the bedroom we want. She loved the idea but moved up the schedule to "by our anniversary." We are enjoying planning out a peaceful space for us.

Too often our takers come out and we lose sight of the good things, so thanks for the smack upside the head.

J.

HI J,
I'm venting, you're venting. Perhaps it is the venting time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ". It seems that her "other issues" are really the heart of the matter. I am beginning to believe that those issues contributed to the EA as much as not meeting ENs." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When I read this portion of this post it reminded me of something concerning A. As it pertains to reasons Infidelity begins, if I remember correctly in some situations the OP fills a part or role in the WS life that they themselves haven't learned to fill.

Perhaps your W at the time didn't have the maturity or maybe something else to look inside herself for an answer as she was discontent with the relocation and career change. So instead she chose to end your M.

Maybe instead, of addressing her own inadequacies she chose to go the path that brought her some degree of pleasure but a great deal of pain to both of your lives.

I often get stuck at judging my S for not doing what he should've to make our R work instead of looking at OW. For me, I am able now (as I know you are as well with your W) to see the inadequacies that he had that caused him to make the decision that he did. However it still doesn't make me it any easier for me to forgive him or to get past the anger about it. And furthermore, I wonder if he will now do what he needs to do to not make this kind of mistake again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I can't pretend that these things don't hurt.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tell me about it. I try to be sympathetic with why he made the choices he did by saying that he made a mistake (though a rather long enduring one). Like you wondering about the deception even at your wedding day, I wonder if my S really ever wanted what ( I thought we had). Being that he was lying about the A from the beginning of R.

In an effort to understand him I try to accept the fact that humans make mistakes and have since the beginning of time. Perhaps I could've even made the same mistake (as of course I actually did before). But it just doesn't seem to get him off the hook with me.

So this is where I'm stuck at right now. To be honest I wonder if a lot of it is just my ego flaring up. I wonder if my ego is wanting to seek out vindication.

I have considered what it might be like to do the exact same thing to my S. But I recall in reading my child Psychology books that you don't stop a child from biting by biting the child back. Though I can definitely see the fun in it, I think that the principle in Child Psychology probably works the same for adults. Maybe the situation would become worse.

So how does one win their ego and pride back?
Maybe it just leaves forever.

J for you, what do you feel is the source of hurt or where do you feel that it stems from?
I'm glad to hear that there are some positive things happening between you and W. Maybe the hurt takes time to heal and maybe there is something more you can take from it to help you get past it. I mean really if we look into the future how much of what has happened in the past will have the same hurt and pain in our lives. Especially if we are learning from it all. I'm trying to encourage us both by noting this.

BTW, I purchased the book awed recommended, finally. Felt I had too. I'm not gettting anywhere on my own, wheel spinning is about all I'm doing right now.

Have a good one.

Freetobe,

I will try to reply to your posts later, I just don't have the time I used to.

J.

J
There isn't any urgency for you to reply. I just put the questions in my post out there I guess moreso for thought or to discuss whenever you can.

Anyway, to awed and and you, you guys have a great weekend. I am reading "How one can bring the two of you together". Finally, it is becoming more appealing to let go of the anger inside and seek resolution in my M. From reading it I am finally starting to be able to see the light.

free!!!!! great news to hear...more later...awed <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hi awed. Hi J. awed, How are you? I'm glad to her from you, too. Hope you are doing well. I hope to hear from you when possible, busy lady.

Today's post is sort of journally.

"Shut de do', keep out de devil"
Hey, have you guys ever heard this song before? It is sang in a like Carribean Island accent. The gist of it is to keep out influences that are negative.

Well I discovered today that my ever thinking mind has been bombarding me with some of those negative influences. After having some time with "How one can bring the two of you together", I felt absolutely upset that this morning negative thoughts were running a mile a minute in my brain.

About what? None other than flaskbacks about hurtful things from in the past. Anyway I was beginning to kick the notion of letting bygones be bygones to the curb when it dawned on me, "My brain is doing the sabotaging my own efforts thing again." So here I am trying to realign and get my head on straight.

At the portion of the book I'm at now she talks about being right. What appeals to me is that she says that even when you are right in the M and your partner is wrong you have no where else to go from that point on. You are right and that is all you are. But what do you do with you rightness?

This appealed to me because I've been right about a lot between my H and myself. However in this position I've found that I ended up being stuck at this point, in righteous indignation and fury. Because while I was right I hadn't thought more deeply about where to take my M or how to get what I wanted.

SO I explored removing the "I'm right" train of thought from the scenario. I realize that being right can obscure your vision in seeing the changes that you may need to make as an individual and in my M to get things on track.

I felt that if I was right I didn't need to change, he needed to. Well this approach hasn't yielded any fruit in my life lately. Figured something had to change. Yes, once again it appears that something is me.

awed thanks for the book recommendation. It is really clearing up my viewpoint.

<small>[ March 27, 2004, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: freetobe ]</small>

free free free&#8230;you&#8217;ve made my day! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I just knew that book would speak to you as it is doing...

YOU are going to be fine&#8230;doesn&#8217;t mean you&#8217;ll be with your H&#8230;don&#8217;t worry about that right now though&#8230;concentrate on YOU&#8230;making YOU happy&#8230;being happy within yourself&#8230;

GO free GO!!!

and I&#8217;m serious&#8230;if you want someone to do the exercises with, I&#8217;m game&#8230;I&#8217;m up for it&#8230;I think I&#8217;ve absorbed the concepts but I would have no trouble doing the stuff with you&#8230;we could challenge each other on our cloudy thinking! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

keep up the good work...talk to you next week...awed

Hi guys. awed thank you for the offer to help with the exercises. I may take you up on that.

I am glad that you mentioned the part about my H. The book is helping me deal with my own feelings of helplessness and lack of empowerment. So I am trying to keep my focus on this. However many times the thought of what part my H plays and trying to save my M comes to mind. Yet I am working vigilantly to keep focus on me first.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Thanks again.

Hi guys. I'm back to journally posting again.
I am purely on the learning end of amy further therapy as it pertains to my M.

I'm continuing with Susan Page. She is talking about different outlooks that empowers one to act as an individual in saving the M. This is helpful. The book has convinced me to put MC aside for a little while. Instead to try thinking and exploring on a personal basis what I may be able to do to work on the M and also to help myself become a better individual.

I've also been continuing my REBT (rational emotive behavior therapy) which to me compliments what S. Page says in her book. I've come to understand that I was holding in a lot of pent up anger because I felt that my H's betrayal devalued me as a person. To put it bluntly I felt that I was adding up to a pile of *&%^ because of what he did. Also because I stayed around and allowed him to do it.

So I felt he had to make this right. He had to make me feel valued. While that is very nice, lately it hasn't been forthcoming from him. If anything I've been acting more angrily and he has been acting more defensive as a result.

And furthermore, I feel that I would be trying to get him to do something that I know he isn't emotionally mature enough to do. For he himself isn't aware of a personal need to be or feel validated on his part that caused him to need an OW to make him feel validated. While I feel this is a very strong reason why I know it isn't the whole reason why.

We are apart for a while which is so good. I can take this for introspection. Anyway I'm coming to understand that he made the choices that he made based on his own reasons. That doesn't devalue me because I wanted to hang in there and save what I thought was important. So I don't have to constantly seek for him to validate me or make me feel this or that. Really that is up to me. I've gotta be there for me in this and value myself. Though it would be great if he were supportive.

Also I don't have to keep wearing myself down with self-loathing and anger about what he did and the choices that I made to save the R.

Anyway more learning to do. You guys I'm an open ear/eye to read or listen as you have concerns. I hope all is well with you both. Hope to read/hear form you soon. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

P.S. You know how I talked about the "keep out the negative influences stuff" and a train of thought that sabotages? Well, I caught myself doing this and made like a diagram in my head of it. In my mind a flashback would appear.-> Then subsequently-> I would sit there going, "shame on him, that was horrible, how could he have done that".-> Then after a few more of those the next thing I found myself saying was, "And why didn't you go out and show him that you could do the same thing he did?"-> Then I began to be right back at that same point in the anger and upset all over again.

So now I'm replacing those thoughts. Interesting process.

<small>[ March 30, 2004, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: freetobe ]</small>