Well the kids and I had a good Christmas at my folks and the boys had the kind of magical Christmas only a 4 and 5 year old can have. My step daughter (well my W's daughter) had a reasonable time considering she's 14 and know way too much about my wayward W's activites.<P>I left the kids at my folks in MD and drove back to NC on 12/27. On Thurs. 12/30 I met W to discuss a visitation schedule. We worked out a very fair arrangement and the conversation turned to our marriage. I told her again the intent of Plan B and reaffirmed my love, that our home is a safe haven for her to return to, etc. etc. While I do not proof other then some startling discoveries, she finally admitted having sex with OM. I knew they had to be. I implored her again to consider the remifications of what she was doing with her life and that of our family. I didn't "scold" her but reminded her that the time she wanted to be apart from me was so that she could evaluate her life and make a decision. I said that moving in w/ and sleeping w/ OM sure doesn't give or marriage a very fair attempt at recovery. She agreed and had that sheepish look of a 14 year old again. I again asked her to stay in our joint home until I return; she refused. I asked her to refrain from staying at OM's apt., she refused. I asked her to refrain from intercourse w/OM, she refused. We ended our talk departed on a sour note. I had to return to MD and drive all night so I took a much needed nap.<P>She had given me Xmas gifts to take back to the kids. The next day I was back w/ them in MD and were opening the gifts. She gave our son a Redskins play uniform and when we were opening it, taped to the box was a strip of cardboard with Jenny loves Jerry writen in her writing. How adolescent is that??? Well our daughter saw it too and it hit me like a kick in the "you-know-where". <P>Daughter paged her mom and when W called, I answered. I went totally ballistic and all 4 months of pent up anger and resentment came spewing out of my mouth like it was from the bowels of Hell. I didn't talk to her again until 1/2 when she came to pick up her daughter to meet w/OM and discuss D's living situation. <P>I apologized for being so rude and nasty on the phone and that I stil love her, her kids love her and every night when I put them to bed, we pray for their mom. But I also told W that I've had it and will be filing for divorce w/in the week. I had a long time to think and pray on my 8 hr drive and her unwillingness to change her lifestyle, work on our marriage and the amount of time and energy to recover from this is just not worth it to me any longer. Once I finally came to that conclusion, I felt a ton of weight lifted off of me. I actually began to feel excited about rebuilding my life and caring for my boys.<P>I regret that our marriage failed but I'm looking forward to living up to my username of "NewMan".<P>Now we have the task of visitation, division of assets and debt payments. Ugh! No one ever said thgis would be easy no matter which course we take.

NewMan,<P>I don't mean to be critical... but the length of time you've given yourself for <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A>... is <B>way</B> to short.<P>If you don't have the patience... so be it... but to have any hope of marital recovery... you've got to give everything more time.<P>Going straight for a divorce is the ultimate of <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Busters</A>... under most situations. Why can't you just stay with a "true" (No Contact) <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A>? Give yourself more time to grow and learn about relationships first... and by more slowly moving away from your W... make the divorce process less painful.<P>I am personally caught up in the throws of a divorce... it s***s the high heavens... If I had more time to distance myself... the divorce would be more palatible.<P>Back on 12/20/1999 you said... "you love her"... How in 2 weeks is that completely dead...<P>Please rethink and go for a continued <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A>!<P>Did you get a chance to see my post... <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/011046.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B - 101</A>?<P>Hope and Patience...<P>Jim

Newman,<P>Yeah, what Jim said!<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Yes Jim I do love her; just not the way I used to love her and I really don't think we could ever recover. The road is just too darn long and the hill way too steep. I had a hard enough time with the image of her partying with OM on her birthday I really hate the image in my head of them in bed together.<P>In this state, one must first file a "divorce of bed and board", which is the equivilent of a minimum 6 mo. legal separation. Jim, she was stealing our family money, I have to protect my kids avoid being held accountable for all of her fiscal irresponsibilities. A divorce is not complete until the final order is entered. <P>An 8 hour drive alone does wonders. I finally cleared my head and had to decide if it was going to be worth it. For me it's not. I tried everything Jim. I even offered to spend $1500 to send her home to Calif. so she could be away from me and OM. I read something in here about the doormat debate. Would you put up with xy&z for 6 months if the reward was more precious than anything in the world. I pondered that for a long, long time. The risk/reward just doesn't justify it for me. <P>I just want to get past this part of my life, protect and raise my boys and move forward to something better.

NewMan:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The risk/reward just doesn't justify it for me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Perhaps not, although I think it's the "rollercoaster" talking. But you will certainly be doing plenty of harm to your children by dealing with this infidelity with less than your best effort.<P>You're not protecting your boys. You're setting a poor example for them (not that your wife is doing better). And I'd also be concerned (if I were you) that she might go after physical custody of the kids as well---there are very few states that don't give the mother a preference in child custody situations. And the cases in which the father gets custody usually deal with issues far more "severe" than adultery.<P>Where's the risk, Newman??? Six whole months out of your life? Thousands of dollars lost??? A pittance compared to setting a good example to your sons.

Jim & Chris:<P>Please be critical; I need it.<P>Please also see my post "The Big Talk" After my verbal outburst the anger no longer consumes me. I am starting to feel peace and serenity again. When Wand I met, I was rather cold and unbending but not unkind. When she asked me to tell the boys she loves them I reminded that we say that and we pray for her every night. I'm not being a [censored] hear. I may change my mind later if she ever comes around to repent but I do know that I don't want to go back to the marriage we had before.<P>I fully acknowledge my role is neglecting our marriage; we both failed. She has a truck load of emotional baggage and I still wonder, cause I do love her, if we could ever recover. I just don't know and now that I can see my life and me raising our boys, 99% of the BS chaos is absent.

Okay K, my voice of reason, I carefully considered the next 50 years and whether a marriage with W/ that may be forever tainted will be worth it. Would I be doing them a service or further harm. W has already agreed to my having custody and based on her current mental condition, etc. I should prevail. I have also considered that judges and courts can do the unexpected and yes, I am afraid of a custody battle.<P>Please tell me why the risk/reward factor may be worth the pain and suffering for the next however many years. I don't have to file for divorce if I think there is some hope but right now I have none, zero, nada. I would hold off if I believed it would still be worth saving but I would file for legal separation and custody of the boys.<P>I didn't take offense to your comment about not protecting my boys. However, I have been their primary care provider since they were 6 mo's old and while I was working 40 hr.s a week. I spend almost every waking hour with the kids when I'm not at work and I've been dad and mom and the maid for 4 years. I'm the one who gets them up and out to school, church every Wednesday & Sunday, takes them to the parks and places all weekend long. I have bathed them and put them to bed every night since they were babies. I can do that with or without her and since she wants to take our daughter with her to live in her lover's home I can actually provide better for my boys. <P>Talk to me K and others. Why souldn't I just admit defeat. W says I'm nuts when I say she addicted to this affair. I showed her all the Dr. Harley & MB stuff. She says I just can't accept that fact that she "dumped me". I do find it interesting that she waited until after she lost 80 lb's, improved her looks dramatically, got men to suddenly take interest in her, and had a lover all lined up before she dumped me. <P>Plan B is in full effect. Divorce talk is a LB I know. She's feeling the full effects as I stated in my The Big Talk post. I assume that when she was separated from me prior to her B-day and Xmas, she never really contemplated any of this. Maybe I just have to wait and see what happens. Does self-pride often keep the wayward from returning home? Do I even want to consider taking her back if she asks? I just don't know.

John,<P>I gotta be critical here... sorry... <P><B>K</B> does raise the highest of all points...<BR><B>The kids</B>...<P>Unless your W is abusive toward them...<BR>You have more than an uphill battle to keep them... I know... $10,000 into my divorce (just <B>my</B> fees so far)... and it's no guarantee that I'll keep them! <B>K</B> is right... this "risk/reward" issue your thinking of is mostly monetarily based... Who cares about the money... when you've got to protect your kids minds and values.<P>I understand the "protection" issue... to save what you can(financially) for you and your kids... I'm not disregarding that. If you can file for a "separation" or "divorce of bed and board" as you call it... great... to protect your family assets!!! But don't go for the <B>full divorce</B>!<P>Think of what your kids will think of you... if you could save your marriage and their mom... Superman, sipderman, the hulk, power rangers... etc... all rolled into one! What an image of true <B>fatherhood</B>! Is it worth a little more time... <B>Damn straight it is</B>!!!<P>You do no favor to us(at MB) one way or another if you give up...<BR>But I ask you... what would you have wanted your father to do?....<BR>I don't know if you are christian or religious in any way... if you are...<BR>What would you want you father above, to do?...<P>Instead of thinking (clearing your head) during an 8 hour drive... fill your head... fill your spirit... with what is right... not what appears to be the easy route...<P>Enough of being critical... <BR>We <B>love</B> you damn it... Think this through!<P>Jim

Thanks Jim and please continue to be critical.<P>I am a Christian, a recovering drunk and addict and I did fill my head, heart and soul on the drive up to MD. It was on the drive back when it cleared.<P>I actually prayed in the car for over an hour. I was almost in a transe (sp?) as I do not remember 100 miles. I truly believe in demons and that W, I and our family is under attack from the enemy. I prayed for my boys and when I heard my son ask for a new mommy 3 weeks ago, it tore my heart apart. What would my heavenly father want me to do, what I was doing. Praying for W, me, kids, I even prayed for OM, his W, kids, my family, W's family.<P>When I lost my will (maybe temporarily) to fight to battle, it was when she said she "dumped" me. I've been around here a short time but never have I read a post where the the wayward "dumps" the betrayed. They usually try to hold on to their cake and eat it too. Is situation different? I don't know.<P>I agree with you, everything I do and every decision I have made and need to make is for the benefit of the family as a whole. No one individual or need is superior to the family unit and its needs. Is my W like a cancer that needs to be removed to save what's left of the body?<P>Talk to me. When does a man (even Superman) finally decide he's beaten?

You're ready for divorce when you no longer love her. And have felt that way consistantly for some time (I'd say months).<P>NewMan, Plan B is tailor-made for you right now. You might not be in it very long, but it ought to be more than a couple weeks. I'd strongly urge you to call Steve Harley here and talk with him---he's great for a pep talk (and he'll give it to you straight). 888-639-1639.

John,<P>I don't post often (although there's one today), but I am one of those whose spouses are abusive to the betrayed... Nellie is too... as is brownphdt... My wife, in her reply to my New Year's Eve e-mail (wishing only to say very simply... "you have a safe haven back here"...) replies with a very terse... <B>'never!'</B> If you look back a my other posts... in general the message is the same... just lengthier in abuse... <P>These are very sad situations.<BR>Your right... most waywards either ignore the betrayed, like Chris... or the most common is when the wayward just cannot break the addiction to the OP and life goes on.<P>I know that praying does help...<BR>I too can go very long periods of time in the car praying...<P>While driving did you hear His answers clearly?... Did the noise of the tires moving through the road distract your hearing?... Did the lights of the oncoming cars cause you to lose a little focus...<BR>One thing I'd like to suggest...<BR>What I, and Chris, and K are replying to you with here today... might just be the Lord's answer. I don't claim to speak for the Lord... but why is he bringing me back here to your thread over and over again... I usually go from post to post...<P>I don't consider your W as the cancer...<BR>I consider her<B>addiction</B> the equivalent of cancer...<P>"When does a man (even Superman) finally decide he's beaten?" <B>I don't know</B>! In your case, I'll never know. It is your decision. You've probably feel you've exhausted your 7x70 times of forgiveness... I don't know?! You do know in Hebrew thought "7x70" is considered = "infinity"!<P>What I do know is that there are such incredible people here to give you just the kind of support you need. The kind we all need. And amazingly... it's free!<P>Yes... protect yourself... the good Lord would want that!<P>To give up on an easy plan (Plan B for you should be easy... with your current feelings toward your W)... is definitely not a Superman hero move!<P>I really am not kidding when I say...<BR>We <B>love</B> you...<BR>You see... Jesus is saying it from my heart... No matter what you decide!<P>Jim

Thanks K.<P>W just called me at work, another no-no. She already came by at noon as she has our youngest son today and he was begging to see his Daddy. She's having a terrible day. She has all three kids now, they're cranky, bickering, typical kid stuff, but she wanted to get into the house with the kids so they could rest. I reminded W that her coming and going in our home is too confusing on the boys. She's meeting me early here at work so I can take home.<P>It really looks like since we (the kids and I) got back from MD Plan B is a stark reality. During the holidays, W was alone for a short time when OM was with his W & kids then she hooked back up with him. Frankly, I would think is was quite nice for her to have two weeks all by herself to play, rest, write in her journal, ponder life, set goals, watch TV, go on a date, have sex. What a vacation! Now it's reality.<P>I am holding off on any divorce decision as I still love her, but what she's become. Jim made a great point in what anexample I would set for my kids if I saved their Mom. K and Jim, I have been trying to help W for 7 years and maybe my approach was all wrong but her biggest complaint was that she felt like my 4th child. In counseling we discussed whether I assumed the role of parent because she acted like he child for if she acted the child as I was being the parent.<P>I can't "fix" anyone. No one could fix me when I was an addict and drunk. I had to hit rock bottom first then make the decision to get better. I would always want to give her the tools, support and even the "tough love" or whatever it took for her to recover from her maledies but she has to want it for herself first. I can't change anyone except myself.<P>Thanks everyone for your input. I'm willing to hang in there. Maybe we CAN recover, who knows but I did tell my W last week that we should give our marriage the fight of a lifetime because sooooooo much is at stake here. I need to live by my own words and not throw in the towel just yet.<P>Now, how do I lovingly yet firmly tell her I will proceed with a legal separation but I am not quitting on our marriage and filing a formal divorce at this time? I use the word firmly because she needs to be kept in reality and think I need to be looked at a strong and firm in my resolve.<P>Help with the words, please. <P>Jim asked about my heavenly Father. After 14 years of drug and alcohol abuse and cursing His name, when I finally reached out, He was there to take me home. He never quit on me. In Ephesians, God instructed we men to love our wives just as Christ loves His church, being willing to lay down our lives for her and to lift her up and present her as holy. My words-leadership through servitude. I was very wayward and God never quit on me, I shouldn't quit on W yet either.<P>

NewMan:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Now, how do I lovingly yet firmly tell her I will proceed with a legal separation but I am not quitting on our marriage and filing a formal divorce at this time?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If you have the money for a divorce, spend the $85/session and give Steve Harley a call. I don't often post this to someone several times in a thread, but I think you'd benefit from it much more than you will from our well-intentioned support. But---if you're dead set on doing this yourself, I'd be glad to help with the wording of a plan B letter (which doesn't have to be a "legal" separation).

Thanks Jim.<P>I wasn't distracted by anything, I remember what I was saying when I prayed but I seldom pray audibly when alone. I was like a zombie and you may have exprerienced, the Holy Spirit was raining on me at that time. It seemed so clear at the time....put on the armor of God, dive into the Word, stay pure sexually and live in a way to be Christlike in everything. Prepare for the greatest battle of your life John as you're up against a very powerful and cunning enemy. Then do battle till you're dead (not physically)<P>I wondered why that little piece of cardboard with the "Jenny loves Jerry" found its way onto my son's present. Can we say "Satan"? I really don't know. At the time I thought it was a clear sign that my wife was lost forever. She claims OM's estranged W wrapped the gifts. I still haven't even begun to try to understand that living situation there. Sick? Wierd? If the OM's W did wrap them, was the cardboard added to the gift on purpose? Who knows.

K, I did the Plan B letter (copy attached).<P>I guess the real Plan B just started when we got back from Maryland and into the reality of what seraration is like and will be if it's final.<P>Please don't think my investment/risk/reward issue is monetary. Money does not mean that much to me. $85 for a Dr. Steve session is a drop in the bucket. Thanks for the phone number, how do I call to set an appointment?<P>I won't concede defeat in this battle until I'm totally broken of my all my love and will to see it through.<P>John

OK, no one will want it, but here are my two cents: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You're ready for divorce when you no longer love her<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This is <B>not</B> necessarily true. You are ready for divorce when a) You decide you can no longer live with your spouse and maintain a marital relationship; or b) when the realistic chances of a reconciliation are remote at best and you come to the realization you want to build a new life.<P>Both of those conditions can happen even if you still love your spouse. Marriage cannot succeed without love, however a marriage can fail in spite of love.<P>On the issue of children, best possible case is when the parents are together in a loving, caring, respectful relationship. Hanging on to a dysfunctional marriage <B>could</B> do more harm to the children than a divorce and eventual re-marriage with someone where that loving, respectful relationship exists. At least the children get to live with a good example of how a marriage should be. Too many bad marriages are propagated from one or both spouses parents. Bad marriages held together "for the sake of the children" do more harm than good.<P>These above are not statements of absolute fact, just something to think about. Something that's slightly off the narrow MB track.<P><BR>--DeWayne--

K et al,<P>Forgot to attach Plan B letter.<P>Here it is:<P>12/22/99<P>Dear Jennifer:<P>I want to begin by telling you that I love you. I never thought I could love anyone as much I love you but one thing this entire ordeal has shown me is that I simply adore you. I am aware that I have failed to meet certain, very important needs of yours and that I have must change some of my behaviors in order to be a better husband for you. I sincerely regret my shortcomings.<P>I know that you are aware of how much your continued affair with Jerry hurts me. I also know that it has been hard on you and that you have your own pain and emotions to deal with. You also know my position regarding our marriage and my desire to reconcile. I still believe that with the love and power of God, and with the resources and people in our lives, we can heal from anything and build a marriage that truly thrives. I have pledged my love for you and still do; every day.<P>However, I cannot work on our marriage as long as you continue your affair with Jerry. It is causing me too much pain. I need to care for myself so I do not suffer further and so I can properly care for our children. It is for those reasons only that I must now cease any further contact with you.<P>I am not abandoning you nor am I making my love for you conditional. What I am doing is giving you the opportunity to discover what it is you really want and care for myself in the process.<P>I will make the kids available for visitation so they can spend time with you. They still need to see their mother. We can work out the arrangements for visitation after New Years. <P>Please know that I still love you with all of my heart and I pray for you constantly. Because of my deep love for you I am still very willing and desire to rebuild our marriage and our family. I want to be the husband you desire to have and need for me to be. Together, through our love for each other, I believe we can heal our relationship and recover to have a marriage that truly thrives. <P>Love,<P>Remember: "God is bigger than the Boogie man...<BR> He's bigger than Godzilla or the monsters on TV...<BR> God is bigger than the Boogie man...<BR> And He's watching out for you and me...."<P> Sung by Larry Boy the Cucumber and Bob the Tomato<BR> in "Where is God When I'm Scared"

NewMan: The letter is very good (there are a couple minor changes that I'd suggest). Have you given it to her yet???<P>Counseling can be arranged by calling that number (the Marriagebuilders office). Steve has a separate line for counseling---they'll give you that number after you make an appointment.

Thanks - The letter took me a week to write and yes I gave it to her on 12/22/99.<P>I'll call Dr. H when I get home. Maybe he can give me hope.<P>W has a counseling appointment today at 5pm. I'm picking up the kids from our mutual friend's house. Maybe W will discuss our separation with our counselor. My last apt. is with him tomorrow as I didn't think it was a good idea for us both to see the same professional. <P>Let's see what Dr. H has to say on the matter.

Good luck with the session with Steve. He may want to have you write a follow-up plan B letter (just reiterating that you don't want contact to preserve your love for her), and that you will be hoping for a chance to reconcile the marriage. <P>My only concern is your recent "lovebusting" sessions. But then, looking back on my Plan B, I seem to recall some "lovebusting" sessions early in the plan too...<P>That's no excuse, however. Not for you, not for me. Stay away from the lovebusters!!!