Whew!<P>Tough times here, huh? Seems from browsing this morn, that many of us are reaching conclusions... literally. I am proud of us! No victim status, no damaging anger. Sometimes I think we should have a "healing" oriented board for those of us whose situations didn't work out as we would hope. Notice, I didn't say fail? Animac's post and following replies show much strength. Cool. <P>When Chris was starting his journey, he posted a list of tangible priorities that he carefully crafted, in regards to his kids. Chris, if you can locate this post or your list, please share it with some of the new folks here. I took that post to heart and what a difference. <P>With all of the rolercoaster stuff, I went out of my way to not bring the kids along. Unfortunatley, my XW did/does not share this. What I learned though is that my kids, have learned lessons, not based on me bad mouthing or pointing fingers. They have discovered what they need to know based on CONTRAST. I focus on them, I continue to build a safe, happy home for them. This wasn't easy at first, but by making this decision early and commiting to it, the results amaze me. <P>I am proud of them. They are little (3 & 5), so maybe it's easier. The way that they behave with me is very different than with XW. I derive no sense of pleasure in this, but I am glad that they see the difference. Ultimately, they too will make mistakes, I work and pray, that such mistakes will not be made based on the pain of our D, or this painful period. Not by "telling" them that what XW does causes destruction (her lifestyle, etc.), but that it doesn't have to be that way; I hope they see that, though hurt, Dad made a choice not to be hateful, he chose them over all else. I hope the <I>situation</I> (w/ guidence from me), shows them that it is up to us to make the choices and what the different paths will ultimately provide. <P>I do plan on being married again, successfully . I am dating now, patiently. I am able to not tip toe into another destructive relationship. I will not bring anyone into their lives that will not be there for the long haul. They have seen Mom introduce them to "uncles" and then they are just gone. Catagorically, I will not teach them that relationshipship are that temporary, they learned enough about lack of committment already! <P>I have to say another rule, this one is tough. When XW and I are together, the kids see us be kind and nice to each other, but that's it. I do not do anything with my XW and our kids together. Not out of anger. I want to make it clear to them that it is over and that some things are final. I believe it is so confusing for them to watch their Mom and Dad be happy, family like together, and not be together. Can you imagine being in their shoes with that! Then see Mom date so often. <P>Another thing I have learned is to answer questions directly, no metaphors. What does a 5 year old do with "I still love Mommy in a <I>different</I> way". Hell, I don't even know what that means ! I just say not anymore when I am posed with the question about whether I love her or not. That's hard. I think to say otherwords, serves only to comfort me, protect me from the hard facts. If I say "I kind of love her", they hang on to hope and I don't have to answer any more question. As time moves on and I can assemble more perspective on this, and they can handle these concepts, we'll tackle them. I want them to learn that promises do mean something and that not evrything is disposable. Divorce does hurt, but it does not conquer, that it is serious. I hope when they decide to marry they can take these lessons to heart. I really do hate that they have lost this sense of innocence this early. Thanks Chris, all of this isn't in vain.<P>Thanks for listenin' ,<BR>Eric32

Eric,<P>Glad to hear from you. It was terrible that your divorce went through before the holidays. I am glad to know you have such a great attitude and perspective. Life has dealt you some lemons here and you seem determined to make the tastiest lemonade you can from those lemons. Good for you and those two lucky, lucky kids!!! <P>Roll Me Away<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Eric, how great that you are handling this so well! I believe as well that the children do not need to be lead on to believe that things will be ok btwn Mom and Dad eventually, (my X did this about 10 years ago to my 13 year old and she is still messed up, especially since he chose to dissappear out of her life about 2 years ago!) Who ever said that fathers can't be just as nuturing as mothers didn't know squat about some men and these men are the ones I admire, like my current H, he is a great father even if we have had a rocky relationship btwn him and I! God Bless!<P>------------------<BR>Chick's <BR>Bren<P>You won't see things until your ready to not be blind!<P>

From the research I have read, children usually do hope for reconciliation no matter what the relationship between their parents. And children are happiest when their parents are always still both there for them, and that often does include doing things together. My daughter asked her father to eat birthday cake with us. He refused. It would not have been confusing for them for him to have done that. Their interpretation is that he hates me too much to be in the same room with me, and that is what is hard for them to cope with. I think he is the one who is having trouble coping with cognitive dissonance - he has tried to convince himself that we can't get along, even though it is obvious we can.<P>And, Heaven knows, I don't want my kids to grow up thinking that love is something that can go away. I believe that real love never goes away, although it can be buried.<p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited January 08, 2000).]

hi eric, great job with the kids and thanks for posting it. Many here need some guidance in that area right now. It is hard not to show the kids bitterenss, and not to let them feel it within you. But I think it is one of the most important things we can do for them given the situation. <BR>(((hugs)))

RMA,<P>I just focus on the kids now, try to keep those priorities straight. Thanks<P>Chick's & Nellie<P>I think you're right. I really want them to learn the difference in people and be able to decide for themselves what it takes to be a good person. On ething that I have heard from folks that have been through this on the longer term side of things is EXACTALY what you said. Several friends, have said in looking back, they would have not dragged the kids through the yo-yo stage of "close contact then withdraw". There will be seperate lives now, period. That's a divorce, ain't pretty. I think the kids need to learn that it's okay to have both homes. That mom and dad get along just fine (which we do). Routine is what provides the kids security, even in our situations. In the case of what you went through Nellie, I simply say that we are gonna celebrate together and that this is momma's time to share her B-day. I agree that the problem is how they <I>interpert</I> things, that's why, for me, I believe in those boundries and explaining how it's still possible to have both mom and dad despite not being together like it used to be.<P>cl,<BR>Great to hear from you as always! I think you're right, that's why I decided to post what has worked for us. Even though it's not really MB material.<P>Thanks guys,<BR>Eric<P><p>[This message has been edited by Eric32 (edited January 08, 2000).]

Hey Eric, great post!<BR>This is what I'm trying to do with my kids too!<BR>I guess it is too fresh for me yet to have her around as we did for Christmas. She accused me of being rude and not cordial.<P>I was cordial, rude is open to interpratation(sp) as I really did't talk to her.<P>I imagine down the road I will be able to talk to her with out wanting to throttle her, especially when she starts justifying things.<P>Bob<P>------------------<BR>"You can't always get what you want! But if you try real hard,you might just find, you get what you need!"<BR>Mick Jagger<P>

Bob,<P>That's exactly what I am trying to point out. As hard as we try, sometimes the truth shows through about how we feel. I am afraid the kids pick up on it and are left to decide what it ALL means, it's not fair to them. <P>I think we have the best intentions to try to show that we can still be together, but I think it just confuses us more. I saw myself trying to protect myself, in doing movies as a family etc.; it was just a quick fix and then the kids are saying later "why aren't you together", they just can't understand. Meanwhile, we just feel so warm and fuzzy that we can put our differences aside for them, but what message are they really getting. <P>I am not saying that once you learn there are problems, you act in this manner, but once you seperate and the D is coming, I think we need to go into protection mode for them. My ONLY goal anymore is that these kids don't grow up thinking every relationship is actual a dance or game. I pray they can gain the wisdom not to make the same mistakes. <P>Unfortunately, the odds are against us, you know. That's why I take an active approach to teach my kids that love does count and should be treated with care. One other thing I fear they learn when we are in the early stages; that if they begin to think "that's what love is? Am I next to lose them." What I show and tell the kids is that I love, love, love them; I think the message is what my XW and I share is not, they have no reason to fear. <P>Eric

My children have often asked me if I still love their dad. I always answer yes. Because I do. He gave me two beautiful children and gave me some of the best years in my adult life. Even though we are almost D. He tells them that he doesn't love me anymore and that is why we are divorcing. This hurts the girls. I believe it is ok to still tell them that you love each other. I love my mom , but I don't live with her. It is ok to still love someone but not live under the same roof. They don't get their hopes up....they don't ask more questions....Yes, I would have loved for us to have worked things out.....but you can't always have what you want. They are old enough to understand a lot of things and I think that him telling them that he doesn't love me and hasn't in a long time just confuses them more.<BR>Nancy

Eric & Nancy,<P>You both pose interesting answers to what to tell the children if they ask do we still love our spouse. I have not run into this question yet.<P>My stbx and I both stressed this wasn't about them, that it was about her and I. They seem to understand and haven't shown any outward signs of stress so far. Also since my stbx pulled away last year and she worked afternoon shift they are used to spending lots of time with me.<P>The only question my son had was were was he going to live? When we told him with me, and would be visiting his mother he was satisfied. My daughter has been real quiet, but the counselor confided that my d was worried about upsetting her mother if she didn't want to go visit and would rather be with her friends.<P>They are showing some signs of stress this week. My d hasn't felt good for a few days and was yelling at her mother earlier this week. My son has been weepy this week too. I not sure if its related but I told the kids the divorce date this week and explained the visitation schedule. They didn't seem to crazy about the weekends as they would be away from their friends.<P>I also considering asking the kids what they would think about me dating. It won't be for a while, definately not before the divorce. Maybe this summer. I didn't want to spring it on them all of a sudden some night. What are your opinions on this?<P>------------------<BR>"You can't always get what you want! But if you try real hard,you might just find, you get what you need!"<BR>Mick Jagger<P>

Bob,<P>You can always tell your kids that you and your W love each other, but more as friends, not the way a man and a woman should love each other and be married. That you still care about her and her welfare very much. I think that is all true, too.<P>I personally told this to my kids when I was divorced a long time ago. I think it is very disturbing to kids to hear their parents say they don't love each other anymore.<P>What seems to make the biggest impact over time is that kids see parents who work together for their best welfare - no game-playing and trying to put the kids in the middle by sending messages or talking nasty about the other parent, even if they deserve it. Kids are smart and they pickup on stuff. If you or the other parent does something over the line, these kids are gonna know it and remember it.<P>The only "hand-slapping" I ever got was when one of my kids told me he didn't want to carry a message to his Dad from me. He said it made him feel uncomfortable. He was very young then and somehow "knew" I should be talking directly to his Dad. Later, my kids told me how happy they were to grow up and have things pretty relaxed between me and their Dad. He lives in another state and when he comes to town, he literally hangs out at my house, sprawled on the sofa and watches TV with the kids, etc. He is always welcome in my home and me in his. <P>This is the best gift you can give your kids in this situation - to make them feel it is OK to love their other parent! Oftentimes they feel disloyal to the custodial parent by loving the other parent. You will need to monitor your self to be sure you are not sending any subversive messages against your W. You know, if she is a lazy and disinterested parent, in the long run the kids are gonna know all on their own!<P>Desiree <BR><P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>