I have a question about opposite sex friends within a marriage situation. My Husband of 11 years met a female friend at work about 1 1/2 years ago. I never really thought much of it until last October when he was diagnosed with depression and he told me he was talking to her about his problems. At the time I felt threatened because he wasn't discussing it with me. He told me that I was too close to the problem and that he needed and outsider who would be non-judgmental to talk to. He spoke to this friend mostly during work but occasionally went out after work, most of the time with a group of people. He also started asking for space which meant he went out 2-3 nights per week for 3-4 hours at a time. The only explanation I got is that he went for a drive to sort out his thoughts. At Christmas he bought her a $50.00 gift and I questioned him when the Visa bill came. He lied and told me it was something he had bought for me and took back when he found something I'd like more. This was the first time I felt he was being, if nothing else, disloyal. <BR>As he began to get help for his depression, which included medication and counseling, it became very clear that our marriage had deteriorated. It had happened over a period of years beginning with infertility. It took us 3 years to get pregnant and when I did we had twins. It was a life changing event and I don't believe we transitioned well. He feels as though I abandoned him in my quest to be a mother and that he was nothing more than a sperm donor. I also abandoned him when I granted the children's needs over his own. He says now that he just can't get over the hurt and pain that I caused him. He can forgive, but never forget, therefore he has lost his connection with me and he doesn't believe it is possible to rebuild a connection once it has been broken. He also believes that I have been far too hard on his relationship with his friend. We separated twice over the summer. Once for 2 weeks, the other time for 1 week. He came back the first time because we thought we could work it out. The second time because he had gone off his medication and became nearly suicidal. I took him in and made him comfortable and safe and got him in to see his counselor. He went back on meds and stayed home for about a month until he felt better. two months ago we separated again. I had pressured him to make a decision because I was tired of being in "limbo land". When he left he said it was for good. We started making plans for divorce. I called a mediator and filled out paperwork. After the first week however, he started coming over here to watch the kids and he wanted to be my best friend, he also said he felt lonely and he wanted to have sex. I told him I needed time to be angry and I denied the sex because even though I fell just as lonely I didn't feel it would be in either of our best interest. I didn't want to have false hope and I don't think I can keep the emotional separate from the physical. <BR>A few weekends later he came over and said that he didn't know if what we were doing is right. He now sees how much he took for granted. He has decided to stop dwelling on the negative and start seeing what was good about our relationship. He hopes this will help him get over the hurt. It all sounds good to me, but I see him as still being very confused. <BR>I found out that he has been deleting calls from the caller I.D. and in a period of 3 days that he has been here to watch the kids, his friend from work has called 3 times. She obviously knows my schedule, because she never calls when I'm home. I confronted him on this issue. I asked him what he talks to her about and he said "just stuff" He told me that it's nothing and she just calls to talk and check up on him. <BR>I told him that if he was going to continue this relationship with her, even if it is just a friendship, that he would need to stop coming over here and acting like he wants to fix things with me. He would have to stop touching me, because it was giving me mixed signals. He said that he still doesn't understand what the big deal is. Again I explained it was loyalty. I told him that if he ever wanted to reconcile with me it had to be a full commitment. Which because of his track record meant no female friends. <BR>He said that he has talked to many people who have told him that I'm the one who's being too hard. I am a little warped in my thinking. I told him that perhaps in a normal committed relationship female friends may be an option, but because of the lies I would not allow it in our relationship if we were to get back together. <BR>My questions for you are: Am I asking for too much? What are the boundaries in opposite sex relationships? How do I rebuild trust if we decide to get back together? What is the definition of commitment as it relates to marriage? How can a couple reconcile? What do we need to do to be sure we don't fall into the same traps again? At what stage is moving back in appropriate? <BR>At this point I am in no hurry to get back together. I want to make sure we both make appropriate changes before we fall back into a life together. That's why I'm asking these questions, I want to make sure my head is on straight before making any decisions.<BR>

Dear Mik,<P>I'm sorry to hear about your difficult situation. I am the poster child in support of rules/guidlines for opposite sex friendships. You will probably hear some differing oppinions on this topic. My position is rooted in experience. that experience is that I have never seen a marriage enhanced by these kinds of relationships. It is always best (and easier) to implememnt guidlines before a relationship starts so implementing these now may be difficult.<P>I have several rules/guidelines that I use to protect my marriage.<P>1. I make every effort to never be alone with a member of the opposite sex.<P>2. If I find myself in this situation anyway I remove myself from it as quickly as possible.<P>3. I do not seek out or encourage relationships with members of the opposite sex. I'm not unfriendly I just keep things light.<P>4. I will not discuss my spouse, except in glowing terms, to any member of the opposite sex. I limit any conversation about any marrital problems to long time close friends (of the same sex) or my pastor.<P>5. If I have to meet a member of the opposite sex for business purposes, we drive seperately and meet in a public place. I also tell my wife before the meeting and call her afterward.<P>Did my wife ask me to do any of these things? No! I do them becasue I recognize the dangers of opposite sex relationships and value my marriage above any short term ego stroking that this type of relationship might offer.<P>I hope this helps some that are stuggleing to get over the "other person" or for those that want to make sure that there never is an "other person".<P>

Dear mik,<P>Emotional affairs are what often happen first in these opposite sex relationships. The transition can be so gradual that neither party even notices. Below is quiz anyone who is maintianing an opposite sex frienship should take weekly!<P>The top 10 ways to tell if you are having an Emotional Affair (EA):<BR>10.) The presence of thei friend near you makes your day brighter.<BR>9.) You try to make sure you can sit by them.<BR>8.) You think of them when picking out what you are going to wear.<BR>7.) You used to eat lunch together as part of a larger group, now it it usually just the two of you.<BR>6.)You have purchased this person a gift.<BR>5.)They are the first one you call or talk to with good or bad news.<BR>4.)You tell them things you wouldn't tell your spouse.<BR>3.)You talk about aspects of your marriage that aren't going well.<BR>2.)You have been to their home but your spouse doesn't know that fact.<P>..and the kicker<P>1.) You vigorously deny that there is anything more then an innocent friendship going on.<P>If you score 4 or higher, run for the hills!<P>I know of what I speak. I had an EA many years ago but didn't realize it at the time. It was pretty innocent but I was definitely on the wrong road. Thank God it did not become a Physical Affair (PA). I have also seen my best friend indulge in serial EA's with one becoming a PA. He still doesn't get it no matter what I or anyone else says. <P>Mud <><<P><BR>

Hi mik, <P>I'm another casualty of a BestFriend relationship between my H and a co-worker. They became very close 4-5 years ago, and I supported and enjoyed his friendship vicariously. He used to leave the room and take a pad and pen and sit with it on his knees and write. I thought nothing of it; he's always been a very private, intellectual and creative person who writes brilliantly. Then one Sunday, just before my birthday, we walked the dog, and he asked me some "interview" type questions, about my getting older and how I felt facing this birthday. I answered him, but felt very strange about how the conversation was going. After he went to bed that night, I got up, opened his briefcase, and took out the pad.<P>There was a pages long "account of the weekend" to his BestFriend, relating verbatum our personal conversation. I was ashamed to see my intimate feelings set out for another woman to read, and the tone to her was loving, caring, attentive, and he had never written ME such a letter in my life. It was as thought they had collaborated on a set of interview questions to help the "old broad" deal with going over the hill. I was humiliated, fearful, and everything clicked at long last. He was leaving me and our son and going into a room alone where he could write to her, details of our life. And pulling his knees up to his chest to cover the pad when I came into the room.<P>I've never been a snoop. Never opened a medicine chest in someone's bathroom, never read letters addressed to another, never listened in on an extension without permission. I always expected that my privacy would be respected as I respected others'. So only because of the odd way the conversation went, was I suspicious enough to break my own rule.<P>The **** hit the fan next day. I had gradually realized that by encouraging him to take her out to dinner and sports events, that I was acing myself out of the center spot. I had withdrawn the support, voiced objections, argued, reasoned, become emotional.<P>Many events and details I wont't go into here.<P>We also had infertility problems, that is a killer for passion. We suffered miscarriages. Had surgery. Used thermometers, fertility indicators, bought boxer shorts, went on a "sexual diet" (every other day). Last year he told me he felt he was being used to conceive a child. Like anyone else would have done; as long as we had a baby. I was truly desperate and he became edged out of the center of my emotional life, so there's an element of truth there. But I was so thrilled that he was the father of my child, and often told him so. He never believed it.<P>Now our marriage is ready to be flushed. We're in counseling, he refuses to give up this friend. We became friends with the rest of the family. He was invited to the children's important events, sometimes just marking them on the calendar and skipping off to the next county to attend them, without ever discussing it with me. When we were together as a group, the families, I was always feeling outside the warm circle of the two of them. They talked nonstop, even on the cell phone once when we drove south for a weekend at a resort. I sat next to my H while he and the OW bantered back and forth for 2 hours. (The fact that her H was out of the country that weekend and wasn't included in the planning somehow got glossed over when we made our plans. I felt like the mother-in-law watching the happy couple. And told myself not to be silly.)<P>I agree with Mudder. Dangerous to become too close with opposite sex friends. I ramble, but he is clear and concise. And smart. <P>We now have no sexual or affectionate contact that couldn't take place on national TV in Iran, if you get my drift. The Imans would nod off if they saw me and my H together. <P>The Harleys do counseling. They also have good books and tapes. No,Idon't get a kickback. If both you and your H work together your chances are better than if just one of you is following the program.<P>How old are the twins? I would have loved twins. I was so big that I fantasized and prayed for them. Congratulations.<P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess<p>[This message has been edited by Bellevue (edited November 25, 2000).]

I once had an EA with a classmate when I was taking my MBA. It never developed into a PA and I am glad. But it could have. <P>To me the limit is when either: <BR>1) you start to feel rejected by him<BR>2) He stops meeting your emotional needs<BR>3) He starts puting her emotional needs ahead of yours<P>The solution in all cases is not to set boundaries until you know what needs she is fulfilling for him. They are probably needs you are not meeting adequately. Read about emotional needs in the concepts (Link is at top of page). <P>Post any queations in the Emotional Needs Forum.<P>

The funny thing is, I almost want to hear what the other side has to say. I am continually told things that support MY beliefs. My husband claims that he is being told things that support his belief that there is no problem with having opposite sex friends. I told my story as objectivly as I could so that I could hear the truth. I agree with all the things you have said. I think you have "told it like it is". Having an opposite sex friend is definitly not my idea of a way to enhance a marriage relationship. However, I long to understand where he is coming from.<BR> Recently we discussed this issue again, and he told me that he has always felt as though I was checking up on him. He felt as though I was always questioning his relationships with women at work. I have. He is a very open kind of guy-- he's the kind of guy that women can talk to about their periods etc. He is a very good talker and asks many interesting questions. I was a somewhat quiet when I met him ( I was 17). His ability to talk and ask questions which showed interest in me is exactly what attracted me to him. I have had some abandonment issues in my life, so yes, I am somewhat insecure. Its hard not to play those old tapes in my mind. Up until this relationship with this particular friend- I have never felt betrayed. This time I do for a variety of reasons which I described in my 1st posting. (gift, phone calls, etc.) Now I find myself playing private eye and I hate it. <BR> He says he wants to work on things but in my opinion he doesn't because he continues the relationship with her. With the separation I have no say in his wherabouts, so the fear runs even deeper within me.<BR>Also he has been calling her on his cell phone, 12 times last month. This month he got to the bill before me and wouldn't show it to me when I asked. I told him I needed to learn to trust him and hiding the bill was no way to build trust. He said it wouldn't do any good to show me, but the bill was over $100.00 so he must have talked to somebody a lot. Now, I think I should order a copy of the bill--- but again I hate being a slueth.<BR> Ok, so now do you want to hear the worst part?.... I'm still sleeping with him. I know I shouldn't because I am giving him no reason to come home. He has it all. I am lonely though sometimes, so in some ways I have to think that I have it all. I don't have to put up with his crap and I have my sexual needs met.<BR> We are going to the MB Seminar this weekend. He agreed to go, and is actually exited about it. I wonder if he will agree with what they have to say..... I hope it will be a step in the right direction. I haven't given up yet...<BR>Pray for us.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mik7769:<BR><B>Pray for us.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You can count on that! Keep us posted!<P>Mud <><<P>

Hi mik,<P>There is a woman who posts here and is a believer in opposite sex friends, buddies, and her name is Shedawg. Maybe she can give the perspective from that point of view. She sees it as perfectly plausible and innocent. I hope she posts on your thread. <P>A cell phone bill of over $100? My H's cell phone bill per month hovered around the $300 mark. I did some sleuthing via phone call to the provider and was shocked to learn that that would average out to 2 hours a day over a period of a month. He had one hour drive time to work, approx 1 hour drive home, 5 day work week. That left weekends and evenings to fill in the rest of the bill.<P>His profession doesn't demand lots of phone calls with clients and he's not the type of person who "lives on the phone" or he wasn't except for contact with this Friend.<P> He always takes his cell phone with him at night when he walks the dog. He plays sports on the weekend; S and I don't go with him. So there's that alone time too, drive time to the court and the field to make and receive calls. I empathize with the pain of knowing that your H needs to be in touch with another woman, hear her voice and receive her thoughts in his ear. It's so intimate. <P>My H has a history of depression too, and winter and spring 99 he became more quiet and withdrawn and "invisible' than ever. It went on and on. His Friend had accepted another job offer and he was anticipating her loss. Life wouldn't be the same without her there at the office to share the long conversations that kept him late at the office after everybody else had left. They used to be unaware how much time had passed as they talked. I'm bleeding as I write this, my heart hurts. <P>I became really concerned and contacted his brother, asking him to try to get him to talk. He had refused to see a therapist after our D day conversation and continued being "grey" and "invisible". He was infuriated that I had "bothered" his brother.<P>Nobody else in his family knows. I wouldn't burden his elderly parents (who are very dear) with the knowledge of this pain. <P>Both Harley and the people who put on the Retrovaille weekends assert that it is impossible to rebuild a marriage when the OP is still in the picture. I agree. For that reason I didn't press with my H to go to a Retrovaille weekend. <P><P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

Hi Mik: You may not like this, but here it is;<BR>He's running a game on you! I'm sure that isn't what you wanted to hear but I've seen it too many times in the past. Looking for adventure (any type will do) on the side to expand his horizons at your expense is quite selfish and immature. If you knew another couple who were experiencing the same problem, I'm sure you would instantly see the game being played, but because it's happening to you, it's harder to see, or maybe you don't really want to believe that your H could/would abuse your relationship/marriage in such a childish manner. <BR>Mik, I've been married forever and I've NEVER put my wife through that kind of spoiled/childish game playing. But then, she wouldn't put up with an OW for a second. I learned a long time ago that my wife is the type of woman that would confront an OW and tell her to put something in the pot or take a hike! And if she ever thought I was having an adventure on the side, she'd kick my behind out the door. But, what would I do if she sent a bunch of messages letting me think that I could do whatever without any fear of retaliation? I don't know but perhaps the same thing your H is doing. <BR>Mik, I have women friends who I respect in various arenas, but I don't wave them in front of my spouse like a red flag. I am always conscious of the intimate traps that are EVERYWHERE so I am very careful not to step into one. I never talk to any other woman about my wife except in very general terms. On those rare occasions that I need to talk to someone, I talk with other married Christian men friends who I trust to keep all conversations private.<BR>What I'm about to say is going to sound harsh, but the truth often does. Why shouldn't your H play this game (a threesome), he must think he can get away with it? You need to draw a serious line in the sand. You have all the right in the world to expect, "ME or the highway." And what if he picks the highway? Doesn't sound like you'll be losing much. <P>------------------<BR>

NOT SO DUMB,<P> Whoa!! You ARE harsh! Thank you, I needed to hear that. The thing is, I know I need to stand up for my rights, I just don't know how. It is so easy for me to crumble, I have always had a problem sticking up for my convictions with him. Everything from Christian faith, to my views on welfare, race,politics,etc. He has always had a way of cutting me down If I don't agree. Well, let me say, that he has eased up quite a bit in the last few years, but I am already trained not to argue. Now days he says we have nothing to talk about. I think it's because I have gotten used to keeping my mouth shut. <BR>I guess that is a BIG thing that I need to work on.<P>Again, Thanks

Wow......<P>Does all of this look familiar , my wife and I are sperated with a pending divorce on the horizon, she has befriended several ex boyfriends for " a male point of view " and hasn't spent much time at all on considering anything but the effects this divorce will have on the kids , or anyone else. I've found internet cookies that show that she has planned romantic dates , and quite a bit of cell phone calls have been logged to this guy, but none of her friends or relatives ever knew about this " male point of view " thing and above all....She keeps exclaiming we are only good friends......Had I been able to meet her emotional needs , maybe she would consider help , but as long as this guys there .....it don't look good....

Mik & Gary: I've been alive and around for a long, long time, and if I've learned nothing else in life, I've learned that people will do to you whatever you let them do. Both of you sound as though when you got married to your spouses that you expected a certain amount of truth, trust, and loyalty from them. I've been preaching/teaching Bible for over 25 years and I don't believe God intends for either of you to put up with this kind of abuse from your spouses. "EA." Now doesn't that sound quaint? Not having their emotional needs met? What non-sense. You mean all I have to do is accuse my wife of not taking care of my emotional needs and I can begin the first step of having an affair? Yeah, I can just hear the door slamming behind me as my wife gives me the boot. My lady wouldn't buy that at all, and neither should you two. You both have already tried, now it's time to draw that line in the sand. EA, right! What ever happened to mature responsibility? Let them go. Who knows, maybe in a few years when they grow up (and you haven't found someone new) you might be willing to listen about how great their excapades were? What a joke! The grass is NEVER greener on the other side of the fence!<BR>Kids, do what you have to do to protect yourselves. Live long and prosper.<BR>NOTSODUMB.

My husband got to the withdrawal stage in our relationship because of someone who was just a friend. "Why cant i have female friends" It to started with them consoling each other over their relationships, the have since been to bed together.<P>I donot believe in opposite sex friendships be cause of the familiarity of it all they get too close. The relationship started with them counselling each other, they have crossed the lines of a counseller because they are not professionals and I they were professionals they would be sacked.<P>I have no idea how to stop him being her "friend" other than over a period of time to try and be more of a friend than she is. I will be a giver for a long time now.<P>Dont know if this will help, hang in there, there are a lot of us about.<P>You have my support<P>rjsby mik7769:<BR><B>I have a question about opposite sex friends within a marriage situation. My Husband of 11 years met a female friend at work about 1 1/2 years ago. I never really thought much of it until last October when he was diagnosed with depression and he told me he was talking to her about his problems. At the time I felt threatened because he wasn't discussing it with me. He told me that I was too close to the problem and that he needed and outsider who would be non-judgmental to talk to. He spoke to this friend mostly during work but occasionally went out after work, most of the time with a group of people. He also started asking for space which meant he went out 2-3 nights per week for 3-4 hours at a time. The only explanation I got is that he went for a drive to sort out his thoughts. At Christmas he bought her a $50.00 gift and I questioned him when the Visa bill came. He lied and told me it was something he had bought for me and took back when he found something I'd like more. This was the first time I felt he was being, if nothing else, disloyal. <BR>As he began to get help for his depression, which included medication and counseling, it became very clear that our marriage had deteriorated. It had happened over a period of years beginning with infertility. It took us 3 years to get pregnant and when I did we had twins. It was a life changing event and I don't believe we transitioned well. He feels as though I abandoned him in my quest to be a mother and that he was nothing more than a sperm donor. I also abandoned him when I granted the children's needs over his own. He says now that he just can't get over the hurt and pain that I caused him. He can forgive, but never forget, therefore he has lost his connection with me and he doesn't believe it is possible to rebuild a connection once it has been broken. He also believes that I have been far too hard on his relationship with his friend. We separated twice over the summer. Once for 2 weeks, the other time for 1 week. He came back the first time because we thought we could work it out. The second time because he had gone off his medication and became nearly suicidal. I took him in and made him comfortable and safe and got him in to see his counselor. He went back on meds and stayed home for about a month until he felt better. two months ago we separated again. I had pressured him to make a decision because I was tired of being in "limbo land". When he left he said it was for good. We started making plans for divorce. I called a mediator and filled out paperwork. After the first week however, he started coming over here to watch the kids and he wanted to be my best friend, he also said he felt lonely and he wanted to have sex. I told him I needed time to be angry and I denied the sex because even though I fell just as lonely I didn't feel it would be in either of our best interest. I didn't want to have false hope and I don't think I can keep the emotional separate from the physical. <BR>A few weekends later he came over and said that he didn't know if what we were doing is right. He now sees how much he took for granted. He has decided to stop dwelling on the negative and start seeing what was good about our relationship. He hopes this will help him get over the hurt. It all sounds good to me, but I see him as still being very confused. <BR>I found out that he has been deleting calls from the caller I.D. and in a period of 3 days that he has been here to watch the kids, his friend from work has called 3 times. She obviously knows my schedule, because she never calls when I'm home. I confronted him on this issue. I asked him what he talks to her about and he said "just stuff" He told me that it's nothing and she just calls to talk and check up on him. <BR>I told him that if he was going to continue this relationship with her, even if it is just a friendship, that he would need to stop coming over here and acting like he wants to fix things with me. He would have to stop touching me, because it was giving me mixed signals. He said that he still doesn't understand what the big deal is. Again I explained it was loyalty. I told him that if he ever wanted to reconcile with me it had to be a full commitment. Which because of his track record meant no female friends. <BR>He said that he has talked to many people who have told him that I'm the one who's being too hard. I am a little warped in my thinking. I told him that perhaps in a normal committed relationship female friends may be an option, but because of the lies I would not allow it in our relationship if we were to get back together. <BR>My questions for you are: Am I asking for too much? What are the boundaries in opposite sex relationships? How do I rebuild trust if we decide to get back together? What is the definition of commitment as it relates to marriage? How can a couple reconcile? What do we need to do to be sure we don't fall into the same traps again? At what stage is moving back in appropriate? <BR>At this point I am in no hurry to get back together. I want to make sure we both make appropriate changes before we fall back into a life together. That's why I'm asking these questions, I want to make sure my head is on straight before making any decisions.</B>[/QUOTE]<P>

Dear Notso,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by notsodumb:<BR><B>"EA." Now doesn't that sound quaint? Not having their emotional needs met? What non-sense. You mean all I have to do is accuse my wife of not taking care of my emotional needs and I can begin the first step of having an affair? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You miss the point. Nothing in the Marriage Builders concepts condones either an EA or a PA. The whole concept of Emotional Needs is to better understand and love one's spouse. When an affair happens to ignore the reasons for it would be fool hardy. Identifying the ways that both partners contributed to the environment that allowed the affair does not exonerate the betrayer nor does it condemn the betrayed. The purpose is to stengthen the marriage and save it, if possible, not excuse inexcusable behavior.<P>Mud <><<P>