Dear Jade, and Everyone Else.

This is an attempt to continue a thread started by Praying on 8-9-03, 6:19 PM, entitled VIOLENCE.

Pana is used to shorter threads. She has started some thoughtful concepts. I tried to respond thoughtfully to her recent posts about school problems. I thought it was sincere that Pana expressed her concern about Praying, who has only posted one topic and one reply. I think that Pana was more concerned that we had hijacked Praying's thread, than being concerned about a novel length thread. Under Emotional Needs they can go on 4 pages about a hypothetical issue of no real relevance to anyone posting.

I leave my E-mail open for my wife and children to review. This is my anonymous idea stretching area. Everyone has a style of posting, and styles evolve. One way to evolve in style is to criticize the styles used by others.

To answer Pana's criticism that we were creating a novel, we can create a new thread, wiith a more accurate thread title. I have criticized the posting style of others, with hesitation, so as not to discourage posting. One occasion I felt compelled to comment on style was when I felt the post was more for catharsis, that for helping another poster with a real problem. I don't think it is unethical for threads to meander. There is a search engine to find what you need.

My challenges are that my wife will use anger and verbal abuse on some occasions. She has redeeming qualities, so I don't want to dump her. My wife will use anger sometimes when I bring up a topic of an upcoming decision to be made, or a problem for which the solution is not simple or clear. My wife will speak in blaming or threatening manners. She will blame me angrily for the problem, or threaten me if I consider one or another solution.

My wife has her projects in addition to her full time job, and I have my iterests in additon to my full time job. My wife will create chaos by letting things go too long, or by procrasitination. Then My wife will expect me to solve the chaos, or tolerate it, and angrily explain how everything is my fault. The anger seems to generate from her frustation with her own poor planning.

Previously, when I felt things were getting out of hand, I wjould go to my motor home 3 miles up the road. Now my wife feels that she would prevfer to go to her mother's or brother's house, and I stay at home. Or that we give eaach otehr space in the house, but she now prefers that I not leave.

So now when things get out of hand, we have a heated discussion of how we are going to find a way to geive each other distance.

My son uses anger when I ask him about his college homework. Since my wife and I are contrtibuting to his college expenses, I feel there is some contingent link for him to optimize the advantage he is receiving. My son's approach is that I am infringing upon his personal privacy, and hampering the development of his independent judgement.

My wife is intimidated by my son't anger, and does occasionally get passive aggressive with him. My wife will periodiacally angrily complain about items he leaves around the living room or dining room. He reacts angrily, saying how busy he is, and srtorms off, and no habits of picking up after himself get established. My wife stope her nager when my son expresses his anger, and then the subject is dropped until the next time it builds up enough steam for my wife to pop off.

I do not have any great ideas at the moment on handling anger, but I am trying to keep myself productive, in spite of expecting and experiencing chaos. I paid 4 bills today, and printed the due date on the front of all my stack of yet-to-be-paid bills. Also got to work on time.

Best wishes

Quipper
Married 28 years and still struggling

<small>[ September 27, 2003, 07:26 AM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

Dear Jade and Everyone,

I have made some progress in handling my wife's negative input. When my wife starts complaining, I aks , "How can we make things run smoother?" This brings up the context of Chaos.

I say I'd like to hear your complaints, and I would like you to listen to mine. My wife often starts in negative when I make suggestions. By relating tghe issue to more chaos or less chaos, it seems to get things discusse less negatively.

With my son, I bring things up, and if he gets testy, I just give him space nad tiome. I just vback off, for then. Some time later, I will say we have some things to discuss, when can we talk?

Quipper
Marrieed 28 years and still struggling.

I began in August a search for how to deal with my husband's violence. In one reply, someone recommended an author and some research that had been done. I bought the book "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" and read it. It was almost as if the author lived at my house. My husband, however, found it and became so out of control that he threw it at me and hit me in the face with it. I left the house and stayed at a hotel for 3 days. I have since come back, but have moved into our guest room until I decide what to do. Our son is getting married in April and I would like for that to go as smoothly as possible for them.

I have learned a lot about my husband's behavior, but have realized that I cannot fix it anymore than I have caused it.

Dear Praying,

Thank you for posting back. I was concerned about you, and other posters have expressed concern for you. I believe it was Jade who referred you to the book. You performed a valuable service by creating the topic of verbal and physical abuse for a discussion thread. Your post led to a number of ideas being exchanged on that concept.

Giving space is one factor that I have focused on improving at the first indication that things are not going smoothly. Staying in the guest room sounds like one way to give space and time.

Sorry the book became a weapon against you. But that does symbolize the problem, and your husband's denial.

Have you been able to have any discussion of ways with which H can agree, that will provide time and space contructively, when you feel you need it?

You mention in your earlier posts that you were unable to talk about your ideas, without creating a barrage of violence. I feel frustrated in my own marriage that I have very little time or attention from my wife to work on family matters of concern to me. I have prepared easy going comments to make about my ideas, and when my wife is relaxing, like before going to sleep, I will ask if I can present some ideas. I talk about my ideas in gentle ways, without demanding action. I see our goals as A, B and C. I see we can work toward achieving the goals by trying D, E and F, and it would probably be best to avoid G, H and I.

Have you been able to find any ways, times or methods to bring up your ideas up to your husband, while successfully avoiding violence? Have you been able to establish any right of your own to distance yourself from his abuse and threatening manner? You had mentioned that your husband feels he has a right to express anger in a threatening, abusive manner.

It seems like you understand when your husband is apt to become abusive, so that you can generally avoid those situations, or if unavoidable, be prepared for his barrage. To what extend is abuse by your husband unpredictable, and to what extend do you find the unpredicted abuse upsetting?

My wife is partly predictable and partly surprising. I find my wife's criticism discouraging for what I need to do for the faimly, and for the work world.

Stay safe,

Quipper
married 28 years and still struggling

<small>[ October 05, 2003, 07:40 PM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

Dear praying,

I am so sorry that he found the book and threw it at you.

When I read the book I too felt like the author was living in my home and seeing what happens. I am glad that you see that it isn't you making him abusive and that you realize that you can't fix him. He is the one who has a problem and only he would be able to fix that and with serious abuse it isn't likely for him to change.

I hope that things go smoothly for your son's wedding.

Be safe and be careful. And always remember that you are a wonderful woman and try not to let his verbal abuse steal your spirit away.

I found a really good web site that has a ton of information about dealing with a scope of things in your life. Check out the personal growth section. Coping-Tools For Handling Life's Stressors

Keep posting and I will be praying for you.

Dear Quipper,

After a period of distress, things are improving again but I feel that is just part of the cycle. I tend to not get my hopes up anymore.

A lot of our problems come when he is drinking and it has been smooth lately because he has been laying off of the alcohol. It would be nice if he would keep laying off of the alcohol but it's probably not likely that he will <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> .

This weekend was pretty good, we spent time together without any incidents of anger or verbal abuse. Yesterday we went riding ATV's and I broke the rear axle on mine and the wheel came off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> . Rather than him getting angry about it we made light of it and struggled to get the dang thing back home. It was actually funny trying to get a 3 wheeled vehicle back home. I had to lean off to the right ride to keep the ATV level and keep the side without a tire from dragging on the ground and also steer it too while he towed me home with the other one.

Friday, he wanted a catalog of his and asked me for it and when I told him I wasn't sure where it was but I'd find it he became aggetated that I didn't know where I had put it. I didn't respond back with anger or sarcasism I simply got the box where I'd put all the papers that I didn't feel like filing and pulled it out within 2 minutes and handed it to him. I've noticed that the way I respond to his ignorance can change his behavior somewhat. I don't stoop to his level, I keep calm and then he seems calm as well. There was another slight incident this weekend where he started to get a bit angry about something and I simply told him not to get worked up about it and that it was probably a mathmatecal error on the part of the business and we went to the business and that is exactly what it was and they refunded the money. It worked out smoothly and I believe that my calmness and my opinion that you can't think the worst (as he was thinking that they purposely ripped him off) defused his anger.

Well this is getting to be long so I will stop here. Hope things are going well for you.

Jade

Coping skills for life's stressors

This is an excellant link! Mostly I have been reading the personal growth section but there are a ton of other categories such as relationships, communication, anger workouts, control issues and the list goes on.

I just realized that I already posted this link. Oops oh well so it's here twice <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ October 07, 2003, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: jade72 ]</small>

Dear Jade,

If you see drinking as a source of the problem of verbal abuse, do you have any plans or options for dealing with H drinking?

There is a network of Al Anon, which is for relatives of people who drink too much. Certainly contacting them would be a source of support and ideas.

Are there patterns of drinking you can identify? I am still reading and digesting Patterson, 1987. He talks about identifying specific ways to measure behavior. Are there ways to measure your husband's drinking? Number of beers missing from the case. Inches down in the level of the bottle. When the limit you have set for your own risk factors is exceeded, what is your action plan? Some drinkers are really secretive.

Alcholics Anonymous operates coffee bars, where people can get together and just drink coffee. Most people don't know where the coffee bars are located. Accompanying your husband to the coffee bar might be an option to consider. Or, "That is your third beer. How about I drive you to the coffee bar?" Or, "Thanks for keeping it down to two beers tonight. I really felt relaxed with you."

You have identified your feeling of fear of being criticized unjustly, just because things go wrong, not necessarily your fault. It would be nice to be able to count on forgiveness, when mistakes actually are somewhere near your oversight.

It was encouraging to see your name as the most recent responder in the category Resolving Conflict, in the main list of categories. It had been a while. By responding, I am taking your name out of most recent, and it is only with regret that I repace your name, with my name. Hope you were able to forgive Pana.

Best wishes,

Quipper
married 28 years, still struggling

Dear Jade,

Hope things are ging OK for you. I have been able to keep my wife basically out of the threatening manner by giving her space early and chanaging the subject. Ther are things my wife is putting off, that may come to a boil, and create chaos. I have not gotten upcoming chaos off the horizon.

My son and I went out for pizza to discuss planning issues. My 25 year old son acknowledged that ther might come a point where he and I needed to part ways. I mentioned that his mother's name is on the deed of the house, so I can't really throw him out. I have the power to stop paying the bills and move out. I offered to give my son the mail box key, so he could start paying the bills, but he delined to accept the responsibilty.

My upshot was that my son should try to work on improving something extra for a two week period or so, and then we should sit down again and plan out where things could best be improved for the next two weeks, and what recources need realignment. This is progress, as my son has sometiems stated that he does not feel compelled to discuss improving things with me.

I set a boundary with him by saying that I was feeling shortchanged by his leaving his personal items in the living room area. He seems to be responding.

My wife and I are tracking his items left in the living room, and recording the times the items were observed. I have mentioned that things look better, and he seems to feel the positive.

Best wishes

Quipper
Marreid 28 years and still struggling

<small>[ October 22, 2003, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

Hi Quipper,

I have been doing good thanks. I have decided to work more on myself lately. I am realizing that I am the cause of my own distress and if I can improve a few things in myself then I can start trying to work more on the relationship.

Some things are going well but I have a horrible problem with procrastination still. I wait till the last minute or later and it creates "chaos" as you would say. I don't know how to get past that. If it is something such as a chore I hate then I avoid it and I know that only makes it worse but I can't seem to get past that thought of hating to do that chore. I hate paying bills and doing dishes. For the bills I have thought about online banking and I think that this week I will go to the bank and sign up for that because it wouldn't be such a pain since I wouldn't have to write out checks and return address and stamp envelopes and take them to the post office. And for the dishes I think that I will ask for a dishwasher for christmas. Other than that things are going ok.

Maybe you could suggest the online banking for your son. He should be paying his own bills now and learning how to manage this so that he is not lost when he is out on his own.

Dear Jade,

Good to hear from you.

Dish washers, according to Jay Leno, are not really dish washers. They are dish sterilizers. If there is food on the dish, when the dish washer is started, the food will probably become hardened by the heat, and harder to get off. My wife complained that our dishwasher, which she didn't use for several years, except for a dish drying rack, no longer worked. I replaced it after a while, and she seldom uses it now, except as a rack to allow the washed dishes to dry.

One of my mentors, had the idea that fewer dishes, meant that the dishes had to be washed when they were needed. His idea was to soak the few dishes we had, when you are through eating, to avoid caked on food, and then wash whatever dishes you needed, when you actaully needed them. The system worked for several months.

This was the last day for my son to withdraw without academic penalty. So now I am stuck till 12/16/03, until he finishes this semester.

My 25 year old son is leaving things in the living room, again. He thinks I should take the things up to his room, if it bothers me. I told him I do not want to feel like his baggage man. I have not yet gotten the matter resolved.

"Well, how about you have someplace else to move out to on Dec 17?"

I have been posting along. I have been asked by a thread starter to stop posting to the author's thread. That caused some sympathy for my position. But I was not really offended. I had not been as clear with my ideas as I could have been.

I have had some divergent discussions with people with 2, 3 and 5 thousand posts. Thos people have their ideas prestty well formulated.

I got edited by a moderator, as I suggested a husband impress his wayward wife with displays of jealous feelings that were a little colorful. I got carried away, making a point.

So I have been testing the limits of MB. Isn't it about time for Pana to post again? It is helpful to have thick skin sometimes on this board.

I have found myself repeating myself. So I am coming up with Qupper's Standard Paragraphs on various topics. So I will try to be something like TOOMUCHCOFFEEMAN, who makes his point once on a thread, then moves on. By having my standard pharagraphs ready, I should be able to cover my ideas on the subject completely, and move on. Instead of thinking of some ideas, then more ideas later in the thread.

I am trying to get the self-discipline to get things sufficiently caught up, so that I can work on some things that I have in deep freeze, that may rise up, if I don't take care of them soon enough. It is a killer when there is no clear deadline for me, and the task can be delayed.

Thanks for the easy pace, once a week or so. I should spend less time on MB, and more time actaully making things better at home, work, etc

Quipper

<small>[ October 31, 2003, 12:41 AM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

greetings my wife and i are farmers who work24/7 mostly in a way others envy. however conflict reso;ution is our weak point. we scream and i have pushed grabbed and held 5 or 6 times. she has left me now and i am shocked into change. she refuses to speak denying our great past and her part in the conflict. i admit my abuses and am not concentrating on her contributions to conflict. have you ever seen reconciliation after time? changing fast

Dear Changing Fast,

It is difficult to make love deposits into the love bank of your wife, when your wife won't talk to you. It is also hard to see if the deposits you are making, are menaingful to her, when your wife won't talk to you.

A shorter time not talking, is better than a longer time not talking. I was separated from my wife for 3 days recently, but somehow we put it back together.

So what questions, could you ask her, if she would listen? Your wife probably has a few things to say about you, at least behind your back. Suppose your wife said, "OK, I am willing to talk to you for an hour today. What do you want to talk about?" So have a bunch of friendly questions ready. Just jot them down as you are ging ab out your work. I carry a spiral pocket pad, in the back pocket of my pants.

That is not too difficult. Just probably takes some time.

What are your objectives? What compromises can you make? How can you break down what you want, into steps? Which steps can come earlier than later? Would it be a step to have dinner together at a restaurant in town?

Now, who are some of your wife's relatives or friends that might could listen to you? How can you explain things to them? Who can you ask to fix you up with a date with your wife?

Now, you say you are changing fast, and that you have to. You have not given details of why you have to change. It is good that you feel you should change, that could be enough. You may not wish to post all your reasons here, I just raise the question, so you can say it out, if you are asked by people.

You have also not explained by what means you are effecting these fast changes. There are a number of self-improvement programs that could assist you with trendencies toward domestic violence. I used physical expressions of my frustrations a few times, in my youth. I have since participated in a number of self-improvement courses, that I believe gave me a better perspective on handling myself. I took Silva Method, good for self-control. I took Dale Carnegie, which is good for explaining myself in positive manner. I took the Scientology Communications Course, good for understanding some difficult parts of communication processes. Perhaps they have courses now that eliminate domestic violence more directly, Quicker and cheaper.

There are quite a few internet references to handling anger in the threads with jade72, 26189. Click on her name at the left of one of her posts, and click on View Recent Posts, and look for her references. I already asked for her help, and she has posted quite a few good ideas

It generally takes a series of posts to make progress, so post back.

Welcome to MB,

Quipper,
Husband for 28 years, raised 2 challenging kids, still struggling

quipper:thanks for reply: i should have mentioned that i have a 6 month peace bond. she called cops and did not want to press charges bot they did anyway. im am in tough government counselling and private also about abuse. she wants never to meet again my name is ruined in region and family and friends. im am changing fast getting my attitudes challenged in a hurrey. she wants to try to leagally keep farm im kicked off. im owning my part of this and am not focusing on her. she is not willing to take any responsibility. is this salvagable? changingfast second post rewritten as imay not hane added first reply?

Dear Changng Fast,

Ordinarily, once someone has answered a post, or posted a new reply, I post any furhter answers in a new Reply. I sometimes go back to my earlier posts, click Edit Post, and correct my spelling and grammar mistakes.

Are you working with a lawyer? Ordinarily Peace Bonds are for a limited time, but the time of duration can be shortened by a judge, upon motion of a party. Ordinarily, there are motions days every week in court, and you need to give the other side a few weeks notice, before the motions day you select. Often it is best to go before the judge who issued the Pece Bond. When does the Peace Bond expire?

Since you have been thrown off the farm, and everyone is against you, it seems like a tough situation.

You can go it alone with your lawyer, or pro se, but it still seems to me, it would be best to find some allies, whoever they might be. I will throw out a bunch of ideas, so maybe you can start with one or two peple, to appraoch, and ask them to be witnesses for you at the motins hearing to lift or modify the Peace Bond.

What time of day did the incidents occur? One thing you need, is some various approaches to modifying the peace bond, so you can make things more workable. Number of phone calls per day. Working the farm from 4 AM to 6 PM. So many e-mails per week. So many phone messages per day.

Does your wife have a lawyer? Sometimes Court Clerks just assist with radical Peace Bonds, and get your wife thinking in an uncooperative direction. If your wife has a lawywer, you, or your lawyer can work out some details of modifying the peace bond. If you go to curt with an agreement you have worked out, the judge will often go along with your agreement.

Today I was campaigning for the Tuesday Election. I had a target neighborhood. I drove to the end of the neighborhood, and parked. I told myself that I could just turn around, and not go knock on any doors. I had literature and bumper stickers to hand out for a candidate. I drove away, and I went out the the main road. I made a U-Trun and came back through my assigned neighborhood again, and parked. I told myself that if people were impolite to me, I could just walk away. I envisioned a mystical protection force field to protect me, and I got out of my car.

I walked past some houses, and I found one house, that seemed on a good postion for a bumper siticker. I knocked on the door. The first lady was very helpful and encouraging. I kept walking up to houses, and knocking on doors. One guy said "OK," and refused to take my litterature. Most everyone else was friendly. One couple told me their house supported the other political party, but recognized it was good for people to participate in the political process.

You say no one will help you as a witness. You say your reputation is shot. Affidavits are allowed in some courts. If you have a number of affidavits, it will let your lawyer know what he can expect in court. It will allow you to elicit agreed-upon testimnly in court, if you have to call your supporters as witnesses.

You can type up their hepful comments, and ask tehm to sign, or, if possible, to notarize their statements of support. "I have Known Farmer A for X years. I am aware of his difficulties with domestic tranquility. I am aware that Farmer A has taken steps C, D and E, to improve domestic peace in his home. I have noticed changes of F, G and H in Farmer A, since beginning steps C, D and E. I therefore have confidence, and bear witness, that farmer A should be entrusted with the lifting of the Peace Bond. I live Y miles from Farmer A's farm, and I have offered to come pick him up from the farm, if he should call and feel the need to leave his farm, in the interests of domestic tranquility."

Now where to start. There must be some suppliers who know you, whom you have made purchases from, whom you can approach for help. Who can you talk to who you went to high school with? Other Schools? Teachers? Farming Orginazations? Churches? Masonic Organizations? Couselors? Neigbors? Anyone you ever helped out?

If no one comes to mind, what organizations can you join now? Ask your lawyer for the names of 5 expert witnesses, who could interview you and testify in your behalf. If you are short of money now, who will take a deayed payment? What about people associted with the programs you are attending?

I suggest the goal be the lifting, or at least the modification, of the peace bond. Are there other goals that are more important? Once you get close to getting the peace bond lifte, re-read my earlier reply, so you can be ready for making peace with your wife.

If your wife is actively undermining your reputation, then we may have a different situation. Is there some way she is being cooperative with your intersts? Is your wife being sneaky? Is your wife listening to people who are out to do you in? Who? Why?

Blessings,

Quipper
Husbvand 0f 28 years, raised 2 challenging kids, still struggling

<small>[ November 02, 2003, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

Changing
your wife is afraid of you and Oct was awareness month for domestic abuse.

so she got some good advice to help herself and protect herself.

you both must of really gotton into it..but you are in the farm, she is not..she left..you don't have to leave, I imagine you are the one who does the majority of the heavy work..so you will likely be able to stay in the home unless there is a place for the help as in a trailer or something.

you can go to church and get help from a minister.but you need to stop the abuse.
maybe she just wanted the abuse to STOP.

did you hurt her? did she have to go to hospital?
or don't you know.

you sound like you live in another country I have never heard of a peace bond.in the states..

well God bless you and get to do some reading
on the site and do the emotional needs questioneer with her..go by the rules here and read, read..
Hope things work out for you..but physical abuse is a no no..one push too many, and someone could get a broken bone or fall against something and get killed..

she is trying to be safe.for now.
take care..EarthAngel <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Dear Earth Angel,

I believe, "I'm kicked off" means Changing Fast's wife has the farm.

You bring up an impoprtant point, that there is often a progression of domestic violence, so ChangingFast needs to provide assurances that domestic violence is not getting worse, and also, stopped altogether.

A Peace Bond is another term for restraining order, or protective order, I would imagine. The Peace bond probably states something like for Changing fast to stay off the farm for 6 months. It may read something like Stay at least 100 feet away from all prpterty lines, of such farm.

Thanks for brining up some important points.

Quipper
husband 0f 28 years, raised 2 challenging kids, still struggling

<small>[ November 03, 2003, 07:38 AM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

Dear Jade and everyone else,

My latest phrasing to command respect and avoid any spirals of resentment, is "Could you rephrase taht idea to be more considerate to my Ego and self esteem?"

Or, "Could you use a tone of voice taht was more considerate of my self-esteem?"

Quipper
Husband of 28 years, raised 2 cahllenging kids, stil struggling