baba2,

--I respect you both very much. But as yet, a person cannot be re-virginated. I wish it were available.

TR--As many of us also wish--but, the fact is--God can turn a relationship around if both parties are willing to have some SELF-CONTROL
(one of the fruits of the spirit) and one many men tell women they don't have--"I don't have any control when I'm around you", "See what YOU do to me??" like it's ALL her fault he has no control over his own body--or his actions--and can cause her to feel used and abused later--

This is something that should be a grave concern--
if he can't control himself around her or she around him--then how can they honestly trust they will be able to control themselves later in marriage when things aren't perfect and problems begin to arise, and the situation of an affair comes up??

--But this is why I never had premarital sex until age 27. Any later than this, and I would have "stunted myself" for future sex.--

TR--The only reason why?? or were there others as well? And yes, I agree 100% that pre-martial sex can stunt you for future sex--even within your marriage--

---Had I waited to have sex until I was married, I would have been the "oldest virgin alive" at age 45. Wow. A virgin at 45. Big thrill.--

TR--Why don't you think it would have been a big thrill? looking back on my own life--I wish I would have had someone there to encourage me to WAIT!! and share with me why I should wait--
other than the fear of getting pregnant--

--Life is not ideal. We can shoot for the stars and we will reach the moon anyway! --

TR--But why not just shoot for the moon to begin with?? why waste time making sure your hitting all the little bumps in the road when you don't need too?? when you know you can avoid at least a few of them--

TR, i meant if I had NOT had sex, finally, at age 27, I would have ruined and stunted my sex drive. Good sex takes practice and learning about the nerves and things in our bodies and waiting until age 45, by then, the nerves in my body would have been unused for so long they would be dead. I had three long term boyfriends(the only men I ever had sex with) from age 27 to age 43. Then I met my husband.

I am not saying what I did was right, only that it was right for me since I was not ready to get married at age 27 and the man I was with was not the right man to marry.

It took me at least 5 years to enjoy sex because of my strict religious upbringing.

baby star*fish,

There are a few other things that have me concerned that I would also like to address as well---


--it seemed pointless for him to pay for an apartment he wasn't using.

TR--Why does it seem pointless that YOU know he can pay his own way and support you and a future family?? Knowing he can handle money wisely--or even in knowing he would be willing to do so--

--He quit his offshore job at my request (and for a few other reasons) because it was very hard on our relationship. and he is now making a lot less money than he was when we first met.

TR--Shouldn't you both learn and understand that you really can live on less income if needed?? what if after your married one of you looses your job for some reason--you'll need to know you'll both be able to support each other emotionally during those times--


--This doesn't bother him in any way but now he wants to go to college in the fall and he's trying to save money in order to do so.

TR--He's trying--but is he being successful?? and why couldn't he learn to do this while not living with you??

--My condo is payed for so the only thing he pays for is groceries and other household items.

TR--So what happens when you have a house payment or rent, as well as groceries, car payment, baby food, diapers, clothes and all the other expenses that come with life??

--We get along wonderfully and we are very aware of each other's feelings and concerns so it never occured to me that living with him might not be the best idea.

TR--Then why not just get married?? Why live together first?? If your willing to make the commitment to live together---why not get married and make the total commitment??


--Like I said, we definetly plan on getting married in the future, but right now we are not financially able to do so (besides, my parents would kill me).

TR--why would your parent kill you if you plan to marry in the future anyway?? If you are not financially able to get married right now, what makes you think your financially ready to live together now??


--We are very positive influences on each other...he pushes me to do better, be more ambitious etc. And I help him to be more open-minded.

TR--And you can continue to do this not living together--and learn to be there for each other emotionally--building a bond that will be stronger

<small>[ January 03, 2004, 12:47 PM: Message edited by: ThornedRose ]</small>

Ok--for everyone urging me to not have sex before marriage--

It's happened, it's happening--I'm not going to change that. I think that sex is an important part of getting to know someone... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Maybe that's my age coming out....I'll admit I did start too early (15) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> , but it happened and I'm over it...

Someone made a comment about dating at least 30 people before you get married and feeling "in love" with at least three of them....
Well then I guess I'm ready to get married then. Don't think that just because I'm only 20 years old I haven't had any dating experience. The way some of ya'll are carrying on it makes it seem like this is my first relationship! Sorry, but that's hardly the case....

TR---
I know you don't know my financial situation, so I'll enlighten you...

I am a spoiled brat <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> ...I don't pay for anything. I'm in college so my parents support me financially. My bf pays for way more around my house than I do. If he's in trouble, I'll help him out and vice versa, but our finances are kept pretty seperate most of the time.

He IS succeeding in saving money for college as well...that's one reason I'm not worried about wether or not he can support a family...he's going to college and he's very intelligent and ambitious. I have no doubt in my mind that he will one day have a fabulous career. He's 21...he doesn't need to support a family right now because we don't have one...I don't even expect him to support me...and I'm not going to support him either.

Also TR--I said in my original post that I already knew God's reasons and I did not need to hear them again.

Again, I appreciate everyone's input...
Some of this stuff just isn't flying with me though. I can't see how some of it would be any different if we weren't living together...
People get old, become less desirable...I will ALWAYS hate picking up dirty laundry...Doesn't that happen when you get married anyway? I don't know....maybe I'm just not looking at this the right way....
Help me out... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Hey baby Star*fish ---

The fun part of asking for advice is that you get to take it and do whatever you want with it - including discarding and ignoring it.

You ask, we answered - there are sound solid reasons - if this is on of those lessons you have to learn for yourself... Enjoy the learning process. I won't get in your way, and just like I've told my daughter, I'll still be here to help you up when you fall down... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Happy hunting.

Jan

i get this feeling that you are a hands on type of person.....one who needs to find things out for herself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
but you are obviously doing your research and doing it well.....a little like your mother maybe? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

i think it is great you are here. i wish you well. no advice or stories from me this this time around...just well wishes.
and i get this feeling that things will go well for you in the end no matter what you do.
a little like your mother maybe? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
i think she's great, by the way.
good luck to you ....have fun....be sensible, but not too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ January 03, 2004, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

Hands On? LOL Yeah that sounds like me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Sorry I got a little defensive...it's not usually my style. I think maybe I'm just confusing myself by thinking about it too much! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

But I have been reading these posts over and over (and so has my bf). We both knew from the beginning that we probably shouldn't live together......and now we've decided to NOT live together. I just NEED to know WHY....I don't think I truly understand that yet....but I see what ya'll are gettin at..

You know that saying "curiosity killed the cat?" Well, I'm the cat and I've been hit by one too many trucks........this time, I'll take the crosswalk. Thank God I have nine lives!

I don't want any of you to think that I don't respect your advice or opinions...I really really do!

Thank ya'll for everything and God Bless!!

Baby Star*fish,
You said in an earlier post that you decided to put off living together. I think that is a wise decision. If you do change your mind and end up living together before marriage, I think the best thing you can do is seek premarital/pre-engagement counseling. You don't need to be having ANY problems to do this. You will have someone who can help you learn more about each other and even dig up some potential problems...these can be addressed before they become big issues that are complicated to deal with. Since money isn't an issue, I see no excuse for not taking advantage of individual and couples counseling.

The reason I came to MB (6 months before I was engaged), was to learn about those potential and inevitable pitfalls in marriage. I was also fortunate to have a bf who was willing to communicate about difficult topics even though they did not appear to be problematic. Use that to your advantage. Take the questionnaires. I still think that regardless of the number of relationship you have had, you still will change a lot over the next 5 years or so. I don't think it's wrong to have a serious relationship (nor a physical one) with this man. But, the problem arises when you start talking about marriage and it suddenly becomes very difficult to recognize boundaries and things you don't want in your life. Yes, you can ask yourself if certain things cross your boundaries and if you are willing to change, but don't sell yourself on marriage so young. You two might be completely different people in a few years and decide to part ways. If you live together and become formally or informally engaged, that decision becomes much more difficult. You'll have a lot more invested and you may make a poor decision.
Have fun with this wonderful man. Love him, treat him well...treat yourself well. Ask yourself if he is the kind of man you can see yourself loving forever, but don't make decisions that will trap you (or him) prematurely. At the same time, realize that one of the big problems with cohabitation is that a couple learns to live in a "rental agreement". Does someone have the info on Harley's book which talks about this? I think that's pretty relevant to this thread, but haven't read it myself.

As for the premarital sex issue, I really go against the grain in these boards. I haven't been sold on not having sex before marriage. But sex can be a real mind "f", as well. It can control aspects of your relationship and mask problems. You need to be aware of those potential problems and analyse yourself and your relationship.
I had multiple sex partners before my current relationship. I have a problem with alcohol (not excessive drinking)...I get really horny. I still do and boy does my fiance love taking advantage of that. One beer and I'm a wild woman (thought not drunk...just really, really horny <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ). Anyway, I had unprotected sex with multiple men. I was emotionally troubled and felt more important, more liked, more attractive if a man wanted to have sex with me. I do regret letting myself be used that way. It is horrible. My fiance wishes he had more partners before me...he was big enough not to take advantage of girls who threw themselves on him, though. Most girls who do that have emotional issues that need serious attention.
On the other hand, I do not regret having sex before my current relationship. That's easy to say because I got lucky and did not get pregnant or receive any STDs...I got VERY lucky. 4.5 years ago, my fiance cheated on me (one night stand). He gave me HPV which now puts me at risk for cervical cancer. There are certain STDs (like HPV) that go completely undetected in men (and many women) that can be transmitted even if a condom is used. When you go to get tested for STDs, only a small handful are a part of that testing.
My point is that no matter how smart you try to be about protecting yourself from STDs, these guys are right. Abstinence is the only smart way. Despite that, I do believe in premarital sex (though I wouldn't push anyone to do this if they chose not to). I think sexual compatibility is about more than pegs and holes and I think it is just too important of an issue in marriage to pretend like it's something that can wait until after the final decision is made.
Girls should not sleep around. It is physically and mentally a very dangerous activity. But, if you have found a man that you are considering for marriage, I think protected sex is fine and beneficial to the relationship in many ways if it is not "misused". Keep in mind that I am not at all religious, so the words of God mean very little to me.

Your mom probably hates me for saying these things, but also keep in mind that I am also young...not nearly as experienced as most of the posters in these forums. The reason I decided to be open about this topic, all the while knowing I'll get flamed from here to h@ll by some of the posters, is that I want you to know that I understand where you are coming from. I made mistakes and got lucky. You might, as well. But, you might not. Then again, I'm not even married yet, and no one here can predict our success. Still, I think I would be very turned off by the approach that some of the posters are taking if I were in your shoes. I'd probably feel pretty defensive of my choices and perspectives. But, keep reading them and thinking about them, anyway. Pull out the parts that will help you make good decisions and respect your mind and body. Don't let aa less than ideal approach keep you from hearing some really good messages...and there are many of those here.

Smile

<small>[ January 03, 2004, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: SmileADay ]</small>

baby star*fish,

I know that you say your not going to do this but
tell us something--

Other than it will help him financially--and of course the sex--

Why do you think you SHOULD live together before you get married?

What do you think you will learn about each other
that you can't learn about each other without living together first?

I'm not trying to answer for her, but for me, when 5x and I decided to move in together, it really was a financial decision. No one ever told us about any of the potential problems. We didn't do it to get to know each other better or proove anything to anybody. We did it because we already were practically living together and spent all of our time together and so it just seemed like a logical thing to do. Had I known about MB before that, things might very well have gone differently. You all probably would have talked me out of it fairly quickly.
So far, I have no reason to regret my decision, but I definitely wonder if it will hurt us in the long run. That's one of the reasons I've spent so much time on these boards asking so many questions.

Smile

<small>[ January 03, 2004, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: SmileADay ]</small>

SmileADay, & Baby Star*fish,

--I haven't been sold on not having sex before marriage.

TR--When I was your age--I wasn't sold on it either--but 20 years later--having been through what I have--my thoughts and opinions on this have changed--and also having children of my own has helped change this perspective--

--I had multiple sex partners before my current relationship.

TR--As did I

--I was emotionally troubled and felt more important, more liked, more attractive if a man wanted to have sex with me. I do regret letting myself be used that way. It is horrible.

TR--again--I've been here too--(do we see a pattern building??)

--On the other hand, I do not regret having sex before my current relationship.

TR--I'm recently remarried--and I do have those regrets..as my new husband hasn't had near the partners I have had--although he has no regrets
in that area--

--That's easy to say because I got lucky and did not get pregnant or receive any STDs...

TR--As was I and many others here as well--

--I think sexual compatibility is about more than pegs and holes and I think it is just too important of an issue in marriage to pretend like it's something that can wait until after the final decision is made.--

TR-- here is where we disagree, and I would contribute that to much of what I learned over the years--

--Girls should not sleep around. It is physically and mentally a very dangerous activity.

TR--And guys should????

--The reason I decided to be open about this topic, all the while knowing I'll get flamed from here to h@ll by some of the posters, is that I want you to know that I understand where you are coming from. --

TR--believe it or not--we also understand where she is coming from--just because we are older doesn't mean we don't remember what it was like for us at that age--most of us remember all to well what it was like at that age--which is why we share the advice we do--

TR--

Smile is absolutely right <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ...it really was a financial decision...he wasn't using his apartment at all....we spend a lot of time together and it just seemed to make a lot of sense at the time.

I'm not totally naiive TR....gimme a break. I know that it is possible to get to know someone while not living with them

And why would you think that sex had a factor in it at all? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I'm sorry to be pissy, but that really offends me....besides, it really has nothing to do with it

I don't mean to be vulgar, but I can have sex in a car while not living with someone just as easily as in a bed that belongs to both of us

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">--Girls should not sleep around. It is physically and mentally a very dangerous activity.

TR--And guys should????
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, since we're not talking about homosexuals (at least I'm not), I kind of figured that would go without saying. If the girls aren't sleeping around, then the guys are likely becoming fairly intimate with ol' righty.
Guys are just as like to get and pass on STDs, although I think girls are more susceptible to emotional damage...I could be wrong. I figure guys do it more for bragging rights and orgasms while girls are more likely to do it for emotional reasons.
Still, I wish more young men were educated about the emotional damage and likely previous emotional problems that cause many young women to be easy. I think when guys and girls sleep around, we are dealing with two entirely different issues emotionally and I don't think many guys and girls understand those differences until long after the fact.

Smile

SmileADay,

I think one of the reasons my views have changed over the years--is because:

I really hate it when my children ask me questions about my past--

and as I sit there looking in their eyes answering
them with all honesty it tears my heart up--it really hurts to see that look of disappointment on their faces as they realize mom did things she tells them not to do--and yet I share because of things I've learned and I know it builds that trust that they can talk to me about anything-- it still hurts

I think that is one of the main reasons I have the regrets I do--is knowing that I want so much MORE for my kids--and realizing, I deserved that too

And maybe one day when you have all those children in your home--turning into teenagers--
and they begin to ask you questions about your past--

Or when one of your daughters comes in the house at the age of 13 or 14 and tells you about some of her friends who are saying they want to have baby's--or that one of them is dating an adult man
in his 20's--which in most states is still considered statutory rape--

maybe then you will understand where many of us are coming from now--

Smile--I just now read your longer post--

Thank you for the advice...I agree with about 99.9% of what your saying <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

TR--I apologize for snapping in my last post <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />
Instant reaction I guess...I should probably wait 10 mins before I reply to anything. Sorry!

But, TR, I think you are much more equipped to help them when you can tell them things you did wrong, than if you tell them not to do things you have little knowledge about.

I think you will appear much more "real"...much more like them if you acted on the same feelings they are experiencing. I don't think there is anything wrong with telling your children that you made mistakes...we all do. That's how we learn. They will either learn from your mistakes, or from their own.

Smile

babyfish.....curious......is your bf from a very religious family that strongly beleives in sexual abstinence before marriage?

if so, what are bf's views on this?

personally, i do not advocate sleeping around for either sex........but, i do not understand the benefits of no sex before marriage either.
and, just as an observation..i have noticed many serious marriage/sexual problems on this board from people who remained vigins untill marriage.
i see living together and abstinence as 2 seperate issues.

<small>[ January 03, 2004, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

SmileADay,

As a mother I would much rather be able to tell my kids to do what is right by Bibilical standards because I did--not because I didn't--

--But, TR, I think you are much more equipped to help them when you can tell them things you did wrong, than if you tell them not to do things you have little knowledge about.--

TR--And if I had no regrets about those choices--
how do you think I would advise my children??

Especially when they ask--do you regret that choice? and why? (and yes, my kids ask)

If they seen my choices had no regrets..which do you think they would choose to do?? follow my path
or choose another less pain filled one??


--I think you will appear much more "real"...much more like them if you acted on the same feelings they are experiencing. I don't think there is anything wrong with telling your children that you made mistakes...we all do. That's how we learn.

TR--I know...which is why I talk to them--if I want them to feel safe being open and honest with me--I must respect them enough to do the same--even when it hurts...

But even parents who waited to have sex--or who didn't do drugs, and so forth--have made mistakes
just not the same one's--and can share those as well--

--They will either learn from your mistakes, or from their own.

TR-- they will probably learn much from both--I just want them to feel safe talking to me when they make their own--

nelly...his family is extremely religious...bf was brought up to believe that sex was evil and very abnormal. Family, community, and school all told him that sexual urges were sinful and wrong.

When he left his family, he exploded. He slept around (a lot) and had sex with any woman that was willing. I was aware of this (we were friends before we started dating) and I asked him if he wouldn't mind being tested before we had sex. After he was tested, we waited another month.....

After a few months of being sexually active, he was still struggling with a lot of religious issues concerning sex, so we stopped....also, he said he felt weird about having sex with me because he loved me and sex was supposed to be evil. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

He is still dealing with some of these issues, although not to an extreme anymore. We are sexually active now and he prefers it that way (Of course, he is a MAN). But if he changes his mind and decides otherwise, I will support him in that decision.

I have advised that he get counceling for the sex issue (as well as some others brought on by his up-bringing) and he's starting to think that would be a good idea.

I hope I'm not making him out to be some sort of psychological head-case....he's actually pretty stable....but he does have problems like everyone else and he's willing to take the steps to correct them <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

As far as sleeping around goes, I don't think it's a good idea for anyone--male or female--
However, I'm like you nelly....I don't see the benefits in abstaining until marriage either.

I believe there is a huge difference between sleeping around and having sex with a long term partner.

I learned things (even besides sex) from my 3 long term boyfriends that I could not learn any other way. These things help me now in my "permanent" relationship with my husband.

I have a couple friends who met at age 21, married at age 23, virgins, had sex only with each other, etc.

This is the ideal if you can get it. But the downside is they both had to grow up together and fight things out being so immature. They did lots of stupid things in life because neither one had much experiance with relationships or life.....after 25 years, they have "made it through" without divorce although they did come close several times.

I think I made most of my worst mistakes in my three relationships and now in my marriage, I am making the least mistakes I have ever made. Those other guys had to "live with the bulk of me growing and changing and my insecurities"...

My husband sees a little remnant of that other woman I used to be but mostly he gets to see and bring out the best in me now.

So, getting married too young can hurt your growth as well as becoming a NUN and having NO sex before marriage can hurt ya too.

If we do not experiance some of what life has to offer, how do we know how to choose right from wrong?

The thing is to experiance some of life but not get dragged down by too many "permanent" mistakes. It is a balance. And God can help lead us.

I was way too sheltered as a child and when I finally got out in the world, I had to really work hard to let myself "loosen up" and experiance things after being taught for 20 years that almost everything we do is evil.

I had to learn that this was simply not true and that we had been given "freedom and brains" from God to make choices from those in front of us.

None of my relationships were damaging. I was lucky. But I screened the men I dated so that I only dated good men. Men who had lots to offer. Men who were not neurotic or damaged. Positive thinking men. You cannot go far wrong if you stick near good people.