</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TR--And if I had no regrets about those choices--
how do you think I would advise my children??
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But, you are saying that you DO have regrets, are you not?
If you don't have regrets, why would you tell your kids not to do it?

SmileADay,

--But, you are saying that you DO have regrets, are you not?

TR--yes, I am--

--If you don't have regrets, why would you tell your kids not to do it?

TR--But even with some things even though I do not regret them--I wouldn't want my children to follow in my foot steps--because even with those choices--I made them because of wrong choices--

Like for example--I do not regret having been married to their father--because I have them through that relationship--but I would not want them to marry someone for the wrong reasons--like I did--so even though no, I don't regret that marriage--I do regret the circumstances in which it began--and ended--and I would not want them go
through the same thing---

If I had been blest with the wisdom of older women who had walked the path I was walking--
I wouldn't have made many of the mistakes I did

I was not raised to believe sex was evil--or even that adultry was wrong--lying, stealing, yes they were wrong, getting drunk at 10, using drugs they weren't wrong--if you were going to do drugs--make sure you had enough for everyone--

So yes, even though many things I did I regret,
I learned from, and many things I have done I don't regret again, because I learned from them
but that does not mean I want my kids doing them--

Do I regret smoking pot as a teen?? No, not really, because I learned a lot about myself after the fact--but, I don't want my kids smoking pot in order to learn some lesson--

I had one child from a man I was not married too--do I regret having her?? No, I do not--but I don't want my children doing the same thing--as I have lived it--and I know how difficult and painful it is--

So you see, not all choices have regrets..but I still wouldn't want my children to make them--
just because I did--

baby star*fish...sorry about stealing your thread.

TR, I think this is a very good conversation and would like to keep chatting. Should we move to a new thread?

SmileADay,

--TR, I think this is a very good conversation and would like to keep chatting. Should we move to a new thread? --

TR--We could, but I think they could benefit--but if she would like for us to start another thread that would be fine--

I realize that both of your situations are some what different yet also in many ways the same as mine when I was your ages--and yes, I says ages, because, like both of you--I was one who had to learn from *my own* mistakes, but like I also stated earlier I didn't have the benefit of wisdom from older women who had been there and done that--and even then I didn't learn the first time around--so I had to go through it again--


I don't know much about your childhoods and things you've experienced, or even what you've learned about yourselves from those experiences--

But please allow me share some things with you--and yes, even as a Christian I did these things--so I am speaking from much experience--

I lived with my last husband before we married--we dated off an on for 4 years before we made that decision--there were things I seen--but over looked--and things I didn't see--that in looking back I can see now--

The reasons we chose to live together?? were the same as your's--

It was financially 'cheaper' to live together than paying for two households--one of which was barely lived at--so why pay for two households???

Now, that being said--when we married things changed--

before marriage--we used joint finances because that was the reason for the living situation--

After marriage--well--he didn't want me to work
and became very adament about it--He was the man of the house--and that was HIS responsibility to support his family--and the money became HIS money--and was no longer "our money" because well
I didn't work outside the home--

I worked w/ other men--and He didn't like that--(never said anything about it before hand)but it bothered him tremendously--

My daughter I mentioned earlier--He didn't like the fact that I made sure her and her bio-grandparents and father had a relationship--(again, not something he mentioned before hand)
and insisted that end after we married--

He didn't like me going to church--yet he went with me before we married---said He didn't like the church--didn't like the Pastor--so he picked a much smaller church--one with about 100 people as opposed to the one I had gone to w/ over 20,000
people--he liked it because there were no single men my age--and while I was pregnant--one of the younger men (the pastors son) came over and did some yard work for me (as he wasn't here to do it) He didn't want me going anywhere to church after that--as there was always the possiblity of me meeting another man--

He didn't have a problem w/ my female friends before we married---yet, after we married that changed too--he didn't like any of them--and even new friends I made--he didn't like--he didn't even want to get to know them--as they became a threat to him--

friends from his past--I met some of them before we married--and we did a few things with them--after we married--that changed too--he never even wanted to talk to them on the phone when they called--

My past relationships--that he said he 'didn't' have a problem with--started being thrown up in my face--

Now, I realize that NOT ALL MEN are like this--but all of his insecurities and such came out full force after we married--

Like I said--those things were hidden to a degree-had I really looked at some of the "other" little things I would have realized it before hand---

And smile--my mother--like yours--was fooled by many things as well--and she pushed for the relationship--based on how he acted around her and other family members--to the point I over looked many of the very things I shouldn't have--because I trusted their opinion--

After the marriage--they couldn't believe the 180 they felt occured--but had I been honest with myself--and really paid attention to huge warning signs--I never would have married him--

And because of things from my own past--things I hadn't dealt with--painful emotions were also triggered--which didn't help the situation at all-

So if there are any painful things that have happened to you in your past that you haven't worked through or dealt with--I suggest you do--before you make that commitment--

Any resentments--any unforgiveness--and make sure
they have done the same--

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So if there are any painful things that have happened to you in your past that you haven't worked through or dealt with--I suggest you do--before you make that commitment--
Any resentments--any unforgiveness--and make sure
they have done the same--</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Agreed 100%.

All of those things you mentioned that your H didn't want after marriage but didn't complain about before marriage...what does that have to do with cohabitation? The only thing I can think of is that you were just fooled all the more because after living with him you THOUGHT you knew him better. I don't think you would have been better off in terms of his dishonesty had you not lived together. Any relationship that does such a huge 180 is bound for a train wreck.
That said, please recall that I am not for cohabitation as I agree there are other serious, longterm problems that tend to arise. And like I said before, had I found the wisdom of this site before moving in with him, I might not have.
Having already made the decision, I can spend all kinds of time justifying my decision and working to beat the odds. And you're right, if my kids ever ask if I cohabitated and I'm still married happily at that point, I'd have a difficult time saying I regret the decision and dissuading them from the same decision. But, at the same time, I'm not blind about the subject and can present arguments that will at least encourage them to make an educated decision and not a blind one like I did.

Your decision to move in together may have been completely financial, but given the show your ex had to have put on during that time, I doubt that was his complete motivation. If a couple moves in together with the intent to "test the waters", I can completely see the dangers. I can also see how one way or another, any couple who moves in together not married and get married afterward, is in some fashion testing the waters whether that was the reason for moving in or not. Again, I'm not advocating cohabitation, anymore.

Smile

Ah....I see my little starfish is surrounded by controversy (as usual) *smile*. I don't want to muddy up this thread with mama advice....I get that opportunity enough....but I'm going to give some good solid MB advice...like I would give anyone. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Here's what Dr. Harley has to say:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The number of unmarried couples living together has increased dramatically over the past few decades, and I expect that it will continue to increase. The rationale is simple: "By living together before marriage, we'll know how compatible we are." Presumably, if a couple can get along living in the same apartment before marriage, they will be able to get along with each other after marriage.

It's a tempting argument. After all, a date tends to be artificial. Each person is "up" for the occasion, and they make an effort to have a good time together. But marriage is quite different from dating. In marriage, couples are together when they're "down," too. Wouldn't it make sense for a couple to live together for a while, just to see how they react to each other's "down" times? If they discover that they can't adjust when they live together, they don't have to go through the hassle of a divorce. Besides, isn't it easier to adjust when you don't feel trapped by marriage?

The problem with those arguments is that marriage changes everything. If couples that live together think that after marriage everything will be the same, they don't understand what marriage does to a couple, both positively and negatively.

In my experience and in reports I've read, the chances of a divorce after living together are huge, much higher than for couples who have not lived together prior to marriage. If living together were a test of marital compatibility, the statistics should show opposite results -- couples living together should have stronger marriages. But they don't. They have weaker marriages.

To understand why this is the case, I suggest that you consider why couples who live together don't marry. Ask yourself that very question. Why did you choose to live with your boyfriend instead of marrying him?

The answer is that you were not ready to make that commitment to him yet. First, you wanted to see if you still loved him after you cooked meals together, cleaned the apartment together and slept together. In other words, you wanted to see what married life would be like without the commitment of marriage.

But what you don't seem to realize is that you will never know what married life is like unless you're married. The commitment of marriage adds a dimension to your relationship that puts everything on its ear. Right now, you are testing each other to see if you are compatible. If either of you slips up, the test is over, and you are out the door. Marriage doesn't work that way. Slip-ups don't end the marriage, they just end the love you have for each other.

What, exactly, is the commitment of marriage? It is an agreement that you will take care of each other for life, regardless of life's ups and downs. You will stick it out together through thick and thin. But the commitment of living together isn't like that at all. It is simply a month-to-month rental agreement. As long as you behave yourself and keep me happy, I'll stick around.

Habits are hard to break, and couples that live together before marriage get into the habit of following their month-to-month rental agreement. In fact, they often decide to marry, not because they are willing to make a lifetime commitment to each other, but because the arrangement has worked out so well that they can't imagine breaking their lease, so to speak. They say the words of the marital agreement, but they still have the terms of their rental agreement in mind.

Couples who have not lived together before marriage, on the other hand, have not lived under the terms of the month-to-month rental agreement. They begin their relationship assuming that they are in this thing for life, and all their habits usually reflect that commitment.

The Policy of Joint Agreement, for example, doesn't make much sense for a couple living together prior to marriage. "Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your friend," it is thought, would not be a fair test of yur compatibility. Aver you please, and then see if you still get along.

But a newly married couple makes a deliberate effort to accommodate each other, because they know their relationship will be for life. They want to build compatibility, not test it. So the Policy of Joint Agreement makes all the sense in the world to a couple who has set out to live their lives together.

It's true, that a couple who lives together can follow the Policy of Joint Agreement from the day they move in. They can commit themselves to each other's happiness as if they were married. They can overcome Love Busters that could destroy their love for each other. But couples who live together tend not to do those things because their month-to-month rental agreement does not demand it. They lack motivation to put each other first in their lives because they are testing the relationship. They're not sure they want each other for life, and so they are usually not willing to make the all-out commitment that the Policy of Joint Agreement demands.

When a couple has lived together without the Policy of Joint Agreement, it's very difficult to apply it once they are married. What they usually do is stay the course. They figure that their month-to-month agreement got them that far, so why change it.

Marriage has a very positive effect on a relationship for those who have not lived together, because they tend to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement without having ever heard of it. They know that they will be together for life, so they make an effort to create a compatible lifestyle from day one.

But marriage has a very negative effect on those who have been in the habit of following the month-to-month agreement. The commitment of marriage is seen as the "other guy's" commitment. Those who have lived together prior to marriage feel that their own behavior has passed the test, and any further accommodation should be unnecessary. Worse yet, they think they don't need to be on their best behavior because their spouse can't leave now that they're married.

Habits are hard to break, and those who have lived together develop habits that work only when they're not married. Marriage ruins it all.

Now, I'm not suggesting that you and your boyfriend should avoid marriage, but I'm warning you that unless you break out of the habits that come from a month-to-month rental agreement, your marriage will be a disaster.

Begin by following my Policy of Joint Agreement. It's not impossible to follow when you care for each other's feelings and put them first in your life. You will create a lifestyle that fits you both perfectly, and you'll wonder why you didn't marry each other to begin with.

Living together may prove compatibility for a moment in time, but it provides no evidence for your happiness together over a lifetime. The only way you can have that happiness and compatibility is if you agree to take each other's feelings into account every time you make a decision. And that's what people who marry after
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here are some sites to visit with good solid statistics and information about co-habitation:

http://members.aol.com/cohabiting/

http://www.rmfc.org/fs/fs0064.html

http://www.ivillage.com/relationshi...p;arrival_freqCap=1&pba=adid=6861398


Smile....you're wrong...I DO consider you a friend. We also agree about something I doubt you will imagine we do...and and it is perhaps my greatest failing in the eyes of the most spirtual here: I would never consider marrying someone I didn't already know I was sexually compatible with. I would also not advise my child to marry without exploring this aspect of life with a potential mate. I know that puts me at odds with the bible and God's laws....I've been called down on it many times here. I am NOT talking about promiscuity....and yet....please understand that sexual compatibility BEFORE marriage only raises the odds that you may be able to sustain that kind of compatibility....it is NO guarantee! Many people on this board have had good premarital sex only to have it evaporate when other problems arose.

babystar....I'm going to butt out now and let you hear stuff from some other folks besides me. I thank all of you for helping her and all the great advice....jan, TR, nelly, baba, dzzz and smile <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

editted to add: oh and babystar...no getting pissy and defensive okay? You came here for different POVs...so you are getting them...and the folks who take the time to answer you are using THEIR time freely and unselfishly to help you so thank them...and think about it. If you want to make a point...please make it respectfully so my friends know I taught you some manners. I love you and I'm so proud of you baby. Knowledge is power.

<small>[ January 05, 2004, 08:50 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

such a wise mama star*fish. you are a lucky girl, baby*fish.
but, i bet you hear that so often that it gets annoying. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

wishing you both well.

Smile,

After reading Star's post--go back and re-read my post about some of the thing's that changed AFTER the marriage--

We only lived together a couple months before we actually married--we didn't live together for a year or two or three or four--and marriage brought to light things that were hidden--during the dating process, and even through living together--

and because the commitment was made at that point I couldn't just leave--but even with that--three months into the marriage instead of learning to talk out these issues and work through them---he took a job that required him to travel--

and his basic attitude was--were married--you can't leave me because *God* hates divorce--and you just have to live with it--I'm not changing, but you have too, I'm the man of the family and God says you have to *submit* to what I say--and I don't care if your happy about it or not--

His attitude was not of love--it was one of controling another person--it was some what disquised during dating..and it certainly wasn't that way the few months we lived together before we married--but marriage changed the dynamics of the entire relationship--that just dating and/or living together never would have brought out--

Those were the sale pieces to get the consumer to come in to the store before they hit you up with all the hidden costs---they put their best product
out front--painting over the flaws--dressing them up and covering them up with slip covers--


Or the person looking to sell their home--they put in new carpet, and add a new coat of paint--but they don't tell you the foundation is faulty--
and they don't show/tell you about all the underlying troubles within the house--like the leaking water pipes within the walls--or the electrical wiring is faulty--and they don't want you to ask about those things either--they divert your attention to the new paint, and new flooring they just added--

That is what marriage is all about--learning about all the flaws you were never shown before hand--and figuring out how to work with those flaws--

TR--I understand that marriage brings about a new world, a new environment, new boundaries...new personalities in many cases.
I understand that cohabitation is problematic because of the actual reasoning behind deciding to live together before marriage (i.e. testing the waters/not making a full on committment). I don't understand why you keep bringing up the fact that your ex had serious control issues in relation to cohabitation...especially since you only lived together for a very short period out of wedlock.
Unless you are implying that there is a specific TYPE of person who would choose to cohabitate (lack of religion, committment issues, poor upbringing, insufficient finances, etc.), I don't see what you're getting at. Your ex would have pulled that crap whether or not you lived together for those few months. I don't think that your failed marriage is an example of why cohabitation is problematic. I think it's an example of why dishonesty, misrepresentation, controlling personalities, and flat out jerks don't make for a happy marriage.

I'll repeat myself...I do not support cohabitation even though I am currently doing it. Even if it turns out to be beneficial for us, there is too much reasoning behind not taking the chance.

Star, your words meant a lot to me.
Thanks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Smile

I feel that if you live together for two years, you see what marriage will be like. People cannot "hide" thier true colors very long.

How long can people hide who they are? Maybe 6 to 8 months? So live together longer than that if you are engaged.

My idea of living together is to only live together when planning on marriage within a year or so. That way, it is done to "help" rather than "hurt" the marriage.

If you find out you are incompatable living together, then you can bail out and you will not have to be "married, then divorced with three kids".

If you find out, living together, the many areas that YOU ARE COMPATABLE more power to ya, you can go get married with no doubts.

Our incompatability in the sexual area was seen by me when we lived together. I still wanted to marry him thinking we could work it out. Since we were compatable in all other areas. Maybe looking back, I should have tried harder to work it out while we were still living together instead of going and getting married. I do not know which would have been best.

But for us, we have the time to work out any problems because we do not have children. So we have the luxury of time and money. Many won't have this nor will they have a moment to themselves once children come along.

We are lucky in that my "baby fever" never kicked in, I have a tubal ligation, and my husband already raised his daughter (with bad results and all the ups and downs kids bring) so he NEVER wanted more kids.

We are lucky. We have time and money for each other and can work out any small incompatabilities.

SmileADay,


-- I don't understand why you keep bringing up the fact that your ex had serious control issues in relation to cohabitation...especially since you only lived together for a very short period out of wedlock.--

TR--I guess my main point here is that in dating and living together situations--we often over look things we shouldn't--

When only dating you do tend to notice some things more--but when your living together--you tend to over look and even blow off many of those same things--

--Unless you are implying that there is a specific TYPE of person who would choose to cohabitate (lack of religion, committment issues, poor upbringing, insufficient finances, etc.), I don't see what you're getting at.

TR--And in all honesty--it has no bearing on a specific TYPE of person--their values, commitment or anything--just that most people while dating and or living together--tend to wear a mask--and that mask is based on how can I get this person to fall in love with and eventually marry me??


--Your ex would have pulled that crap whether or not you lived together for those few months. I don't think that your failed marriage is an example of why cohabitation is problematic.

TR--And I agree 100%--

--I think it's an example of why dishonesty, misrepresentation, controlling personalities, and flat out jerks don't make for a happy marriage.

TR--It's partly that and partly about learning that it's okay to share all sides of yourself good and bad--and learning to accept that if they don't like you--or even fall in love with you--it's okay--

And if in the process--you find there are areas you really should change (like the last three or four people I dated had a problem w/ me in this area) then maybe it's time to really look at those areas--

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Baba said:
My idea of living together is to only live together when planning on marriage within a year or so. That way, it is done to "help" rather than "hurt" the marriage.
If you find out you are incompatable living together, then you can bail out and you will not have to be "married, then divorced with three kids". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But, doesn't this directly go against what Harley is trying to warn people about? I agree with Harley about the rental agreement attitude. The lifestyle that if things get too complicated, hurtful, whatever, one person can still escape because they haven't married. Even though engaged, they're still testing the waters. I also think engagements (along with marriage) are thrown around too haphazardly. An engagement should not be a trial period as Baba seems to be describing it. It should be the period where people plan their wedding, not their compatibility. All deal-breakers should have been discussed long before the commitment that I believe should accompany an engagement. And I think that is what people are trying to say about cohabitation. Living together should be accompanied by the same committment that comes with the wedding. And some people feel the same way about premarital sex. Premarital sex should be accompanied by the same committment that comes with marriage...though, I don't agree with this one. While the risks which come with premarital sex make it a smart decision to abstain, the problems that develop in marriage out of sexual incompatibility warrant (IMO) premarital sex. While irresponsible premarital sex may be more risky than the problems that can arise out of the lack of knowledge about sexual incompatibility, safe sex seems less risky than abstinence in terms of sexual compatibility in marriage.
I realize that my rationale does not take religious guidelines and traditions into consideration and so I understand there is an entirely different argument lingering. But, from a purely secular, logical standpoint, this is what I believe.

Smile

SmileADay,


-- An engagement should not be a trial period as Baba seems to be describing it. It should be the period where people plan their wedding, not their compatibility. All deal-breakers should have been discussed long before the commitment that I believe should accompany an engagement.--

TR--Actually, I think that dating as in a serious we aren't dating anyone else type thing--is a type of 'engagement' because for most people when they make that decision to only date that one person--the ultimate goal is eventual marriage--
whether marriage is 'discussed' at that point or not--that is typically the reason most people choose to only date one person--

And the actual "engagement" you've been asked to marry this person type thing--is the time to really look deeper at any issues that haven't been worked through before--which is why most typical pre-marriage counseling is done within weeks/months of the actual ceremony--so that hopefully you will really look closer at any of these issues--before you actually walk down the aisle--

And you do all this while planning your wedding <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I don't know. When we lived together it was with the understanding we would be together for life if it was "living together forever" or marriage forever. So, for us, it was a committment.

I have just seen too many people on this board who married before getting to know the partner first. Then, they find out they are incompatable and should not be living together. Had they given the relationship a better test first, they may have avoided the problems that cannot be solved except by drastic personality changes and divorce.

And Smile, you seem to give me credit for following and believing in and spouting off and adhering to the Harley policies.

However, I never knew the Harley concepts when I lived together with my boyfriend, now husband. You yourself are not currently following his policies in living together.

I agree with many of his concepts. But not all of them. And they do not apply the same to all people. And though I am not against Harley policies, I am not bound to quote them and repeat them in order to post on these boards.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have just seen too many people on this board who married before getting to know the partner first. Then, they find out they are incompatable and should not be living together. Had they given the relationship a better test first, they may have avoided the problems that cannot be solved except by drastic personality changes and divorce.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">baba....this seems SO LOGICAL, but there is real evidence that it isn't a good "test" at all. In fact, statistics show that folks who live together are LESS likely to end up happily married. To find out why...read that Harley excerpt I quoted and go look at the links a put in place for baby.

Here's a sample:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">3 Reasons Why Researchers Say Living Together Before Marriage is Risky

This article is based on information from The National Marriage Project at Rutgers University, and is part of the Relationships Debate "Should you live together before marriage?"

Some call it living in sin, others call it living in bliss, but these days it's almost expected that a couple will live together before tying the knot. Only 40 short years ago, this wasn't the case. According to the U.S. Census, less than 500,000 unmarried couples were "shacking up" in 1960. (In fact, it was actually illegal in many states at the
time.) But by 2000, cohabitation had lost its outlaw status -- and nine times as many people were doing it.

What's behind this sweeping social change? "I would never commit to spending my life with a man without living with him first," explains iVillage member lucy4980. "You get to know a person's private face this way, rather than the public face that he presents to the world." Besides testing the waters, other couples say the benefits include sharing expenses and the reassuring thought that breaking up is easier than getting divorced.

But despite the rise in cohabitation and its growing acceptability in our society, studies show that living together before marriage holds risks to the longevity and stability of the relationship, and to the happiness and welfare of those in it. Read on to find out what two researchers at the Rutgers University Marriage Project found when they put all the facts together, then decide for yourself.

3 Warnings: Living Together Might Not Be Smart

1. Higher Divorce Rate
Perhaps the most compelling and widespread argument against living together before marriage is that several researchers say it increases the risk of breaking up. Virtually all studies of this topic have shown that the chance of divorce is significantly greater for married couples who lived together first. And in 1992, the National Survey of Families and Households found that, in 3,300 families, married couples who had lived together first were judged to be 46 percent more likely to get divorced.

2. Lower Quality of Life
When it comes to living together, more research suggests that the quality of life for unmarried couples is far lower than for married couples. Researchers David Popenoe and Barbara Dafoe Whitehead say cohabiting couples report lower levels of happiness, lower levels of sexual exclusivity and sexual satisfaction, and poorer relationships with their parents. Annual rates of depression are more than three times higher. And, finally, cohabiting women are more likely than married women to suffer physical and sexual abuse.

3. Living Together Doesn't Necessarily Lead to Marriage
After five to seven years, 21 percent of most cohabitating couples are still doing just that -- cohabitating, without getting married. In a new study by Popenoe and Whitehead, one of the top 10 reasons why men said that they are reluctant to get married at all is because they can simply live with a woman -- and enjoy the same benefits.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I can agree with those statistics if you are talking about YOUNG people. I was 44 when I lived with him. So I probably do not fit those stats. I am so strange (not wanting babies, accumulating large real estate holdings, etc) That I probably fit NO stereotype at all.

I agree it would have been a mistake for me to live with someone at age 21 to age 26. Too young! Too limiting! Too bad!

Lots of long posts here. Mine will be short.

I was "in love" at 21. I am divorced at 37. We were both college educated people and had 2 children in our 11 years.

You will change, mature, so much in several more years. Date, have friends, if you chosse to have sex have safe sex, don't tie yourself down too much. Please wait, live and have fun now, divorce is very painful. Enjoy life now and experience as many people as you can.

baba.....I have no doubt...you're one of kind!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with many of his concepts. But not all of them. And they do not apply the same to all people. And though I am not against Harley policies, I am not bound to quote them and repeat them in order to post on these boards. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whoa...I wasn't trying to attack you, Baba. I was simply discussing what you said in terms of the Harley principles. You're right, I don't agree with all of his principles, either, and often argue against them even on these boards so I'd have to be a horrible hypocrite to condemn you for a similar thing. I'm sorry I came across that way.

And TR, I understand completely that the things I stated were my beliefs and not reality. I would hope engagement was more about preparing for the wedding...after two people know they are ready for marriage. That's not at all how it is. I also think people rush into marriage far too often and so that is why I think the engagement should be utilized differently. These are just my opinions and observations. I've got Star to provide all the references <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Smile

I think 75% or 80% of the posts regarding marital problems on MB could be traced back to marrying the wrong person. Here are some reasons marriages like this could happen:

1. They are in love and do not see they have incompatable personalities

2. They are young and have dated very little so they cannot know who they are compatable with yet.

3. Low self esteem leads them to marry "anybody" without considering if this is the right person for them...

4. They marry someone with addictions and did not see it coming

5. They marry too fast

6. They marry for the wrong reasons

7. They want the "Big white wedding"...and "The Diamond Ring".

8. They want children and a meal ticket to support them, not a happy marriage partner.

9. They do not want to develop their own life but rather want to be married to "somebody" and be "taken care of".

10. They want to plop out several kids and be allowed to do this and be taken care of for the rest of their lives.

11. All their friends are married and so they marry too.

12. They like the looks or social status of the marriage partner.

13. They are totally incompatable and cannot communicate but the sex is good at first so they marry.

14. They confuse sex with love.

15. They are virgins and marry in order to be able to have sex.

16. They want to move away from home

17. They are young and do not know what they want yet out of life.

18. They are dysfunctional or they marry a partner who is dysfunctional and a good marriage is not possible.

19. They want a "mother" or "father" figure not a husband or wife.

20. They have a strange and unrealistic concept of what marriage is and is'nt.

21. They have trouble observing and judging other people.

22. They accidently marry a mentally ill partner and then feel like they have to stick with them.

23. They marry a liar, a cheater, a person with no morals or a user of people. But they did not recognize this at first meeting or before marriage.

24. They marry a very selfish person and then they have to constantly give and give with nothing in return.

25. They have no boundaries and marry an abuser.

26. They have not enough boundaries yet to conduct a good marriage yet they marry anyway.

27. They marry and create children while themselves truly needing intensive counseling for past abuse...


There are many other reasons people marry the wrong person.

ANYTHING that teaches you about people and relationships(without damaging consequences or limiting you) is a good thing.

Just so you do not make the mistake of marrying the wrong person.

<small>[ January 06, 2004, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>