Well, I dug deep this past week. Decided that I didn't do Plan A for 18 mo + to be the one to walk away.<P>I told Guard I want the marriage. I said that in a perfect world, he would stop moving into the house he is renting and move home with me and the kids. <P>Ok, that's what he's been telling me he wants, right?<P>Well, apparently when I couldn't make this offer 10 days ago, that was a turning point and he's ready to settle into the house, move on with his life.<P>This is the reaction I expected, this was the reason I couldn't come to a reconcilation point for the last 3 months, because I feared if I did, he'd back away. He did, although saying he wants the marriage, he's got that house now. He told me I need counselling. (Now I need counselling if I want him?) All this and that coincidental email from the OW that I found in his delete file last week. I suppose SHE doesn't have anything to do with his change of heart? Of course not (he says) he didn't even read the email--it was in his delete file, wasn't it?<P>We're back to trust issues. I don't trust him. He doesn't trust me.<P>She's back. I can feel it.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Let love be genuine...hold fast to what is good; love one another." Rom 12:9-10

Hi Lor,<P>There's alot to be said about "gut" feelings. I said the same thing to myself many, many months ago. "She's back. I can feel it...."<P>I'm sorry you hurt. I know the feeling.<P>Tanya

Lor,<P>I agree with Tanya. That gut feeling usually says it all. What is that old saying about women's intuition? <P>I'm sorry that Guard has back away. I don't think I will ever understand the behavior that the betrayers exhibit.<P>I'm so sorry he has hurt you again,but please take care of yourself. <P>Hugs,<BR>Tulip

Lor,<P>I am so sorry to hear of this new situation. I agree, your gut feeling is usually right. What a shame if that is true. What happened to the person you were seeing, did you end that to go back to Guard? This may have been in a recent post, but I have not been around lately, in the middle of the divorce, and its really tough.<P>I hope you find peace and I am praying you get it soon. This has gone on so long for you and I envy your strength but I know I couldn't do it. I had to walk away because I was hurt too much. I guess I know now, in my case, that was the right decision, but it was a hard one to come to. <P>HUGS, Dana<BR>

Hi, Lor. I've been following you, not talking much, but this post drew the loudest groan anyone's heard from me in a long time.<P>I'm so sorry.<P>{{{{{{{{{{{{{Lor}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>Lori

Hi Lor,<P> What the "blank" is he thinking?....I'm sorry Lor, I don't mean to be so strong, but you have been through the worst and now when you once again have opened your heart he pulls this? I am so angry over the pain you and your kids have had to endure.....Don't listen to me, just know it's NOT you......LU

<B>{{{{{{{{{{{{Lor}}}}}}}}}}}}</B><P>I'm so sorry.... I think if my X had a brother, he'd be your H. <P>I don't know what else to say... you are in my thougths & prayers. I'll send my fryin' pan over to Guard.... I doubt it will help, but maybe it will make You and Me feel better. <P>Keep your chin up honey!<P>Lots of Love to you,<BR>Dawnetta<P>------------------<BR>There are deep sorrows and killing cares in life, but the encouragement and love of friends were given us to make all difficulties bearable. <BR>-- John Oliver Holmes<P>The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.<BR>-- Elie Wiesel<P><BR>

Thanks all. There is such a wealth of pain, sorrow, experience and knowledge on this board. Hugs to you Tanya, Tulip, Dana, Dawnetta, Lu, Lori.<P>I know I could be wrong about her, but I also know every other time they got back together (3-4 times?) he denied it just as vehemently.<P>I want a face to face, uh, to face (all 3 of us) with her. To get her the blankety blank blank out of my life...or if not, to know that she's there. Guard says we'd have to do the same with my OM. I'm at the point where I could do that, although I would prefer the Harly no-contact letter since, other than haunting the OM's house, I don't know how to track him down. Guard did take me over to her office, she wasn't there. That was the day of the email, so he may have well known she wouldn't be there. I DON'T KNOW!!!!<P>I just feel like rampaging every time I think of her. And then I wonder why I'm even hesitating with filing the divorce papers. But I want my marriage to finally work... It feels like I've got a raquetball court in my head...and I've just been beaned.

Lor, <BR>So sorry to hear the turn things have taken....in regards to the OW, only Guard can completely cut it off with her. Even if you were to meet her, the three of you, it is HIM that needs to make the break, clean and clear..<BR>Your analogy of the racquetball court is so true..my X would tell me it was over, time and time again, and I would find out differently...it was a reopening of the wound and pouring salt in it every time..<BR>You should do everything possible to save your marriage...it is the most important thing you can do...but know that if it doesn't work, you have done al you can to save it. I still feel Guard loves you, but for whatever reason, his lovebank is empty as well. <P>------------------<BR>Susan

Oh Lor,<P>I am so sorry. This makes me mad, very mad.<P>I can't believe that he has done this to you, yet again!!!!!!!<P>You are so strong, so brave, so amazing to do this.<P>I don't what to say to you. I just feel for you.<P>{{{{{{{{{{{{{Lor}}}}}}}}}}}}<BR>God is still working (even when you can't see it)<P>God Bless,<P>Cheryl

Lor...<P>I hope you will still speak to me after this one...<P>You said: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>We're back to trust issues. I don't trust him. He doesn't trust me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm gonna go out on a limb here, and I don't care who trashes me for it. Your husband abandoned you 7 times... you had a right to find some friendship. You did NOT have an affair - Guard did. He has NO RIGHT not to trust you at all - not one little teeny iota of right.<P>I'm sorry but he's being a jerk. He's been a jerk. How can a man claiming to follow the teachings of Jesus even remotely believe that this decision is OK? That to NOT move home with his family is consistent with what is taught about marriage in the New Testament? And to tell you that YOU need counseling? You? The wife he has emotionally abused for nearly two years?! That is controlling and abusive behavior. An that is NOT what you have described as the man you loved and married. I am not advising you to do anything one way or another, but he is <B>WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!</B><P>I hope that he is at peace with his God because his behavior is at odds with what I know of the teachings of Christ. Or perhaps he only follows those teachings when it supports his current cause?<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I can see clearly now,<BR>the rain is gone ...

{{{{{{{{{{{{{Lor}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<BR>So very very sorry!<P>Is it just the tiniest bit possible that there may be a control issue going on here with Guard as well?<P>One of those "We'll do it the way I want when I want" things. Maybe even subconscious?<BR>Just a thought I had earlier. Trying to figure out how these guys can be so blasted stupid.<P>Butterfly may need a new frying pan after we are all done with it.<P>Prayers my friend. I still can see how much you have grown. I am still very very proud of you. <P>

((((Lor))))<P>Maybe I'm way off base here, but have you considered that Guard was ready to come back and really work on the marriage when he thought you had found someone else? This sounds like he didn't like the fact that you found happiness despite him. And now that you've given up your OM, he is suddenly backing away when you say you're willing to work on the marriage again. Seemed he pushed and pushed to get you back, and when he gets you back, he pulls away again. This is VERY controlling behavior on his part. He is the one who made the decision to have an affair - NOT YOU. Now that you are no longer attached to this OM in an EA, he doesn't seem as interested. This really p!sses me off!!!! Pardon my French (well, it isn't really French). I read Guard's posts where he talked about how sorry he was and all he wanted was another chance, blah, blah, blah. So now you give him one and he throws it back in your face? Truly unbelievable!!! I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but I am really angry with Guard right now. For you to open your heart up yet again just for him to stomp on it infuriates me! I personally wouldn't waste any time getting to the lawyer's office if it was me, but I realize you are not me. I know you have to do what you think is right, but honestly, how much abuse does one woman have to take? You are worth more than this. You deserve to be happy. Do what will make YOU happy. You are in my prayers Lor. I feel for you right now. (((((hugs))))))<P><P>------------------<BR>Blessed be.<BR>****************<BR>Keridwen<P>Keridwen_7@yahoo.com

All I can say is I'm so touched...and I think some of you are angrier than I am . But then, I'm tired of this mess and sometimes it feels like "same doodoo, third year". We just went past the 2 year mark of the start of his affair. I'm wondering if that wasn't what the email was about...seeing if he was going to the conference this past weekend. He didn't.<P>Sue--I'll never know if he's broken contact or not. He always says he has...that's why I want the face to face. Harley doesn't really go into what to do after the letter has failed...multiple times. I have talked to her once, she said she didn't date married men. So she's nuts, no dates, just "doing" them? Yeah, that's nice.<P>Ceecee--I know God is there. I'm really not as upset as I think I should be. That has to be God's grace. Thanks for your lovely words.<P>{{{{{{{{Terri}}}}}}} Don't you know there is nothing that you could say that would stop me from speaking to you? God isn't done with Guard yet (I guess He's never done with us). There is that lesson that God doesn't work in our time--Abraham always being a good example. And whether what I did is an affair...at the time I thought he was saving my life/sanity. But he's not there anymore, and I'm still alive (we can debate the sane at some later point). And with Guard, control has always been an issue. He thought I was controlling (well, somebody had to take care of stuff )...he is controlling and doesn't entirely recognize it. I'm still sorting through this, Terri.<P>WS--see above controlling statement. If it is going to be when he wants...well, one wonders...all I know for sure is if OW is back. I won't ever go back into this. (Cringe) Guard is very smart and very strong-willed, as I am (well, you can believe the strong-willed part anyway )<P>Keridwen--I know you posted a lot to Guard. His posts were wonderful, I just didn't recognize the man I have known in them. I pray he is/becomes the man of his posts. That's a good man, a repentent man, the man I have had as my husband. I want that man. I think the OM is also a part of this. Guard doesn't always know what to do with me, but he REALLY doesn't want someone else to be with me either.<P>Thanks for all of your prayers and your support. I don't know what I would do without this board.<P>Love,<BR>Lor<P><BR> <BR>

Lor,<P>So very sad for you. All I can say is that I offer my love and prayers to you. Your suffering has made my own pale by comparison....14 months compared to the third year???<P>Keep your sanity, if you can, Lor. After so much pain and distrust, I know this has gotten you beat down pretty low. Yet, you continue to try and work things out, despite the number of setbacks that would make a saint sin.<P>I am wishing you only the very, very best. You surely need a good break, Lor.<P>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Lor}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

I am sorry Lor.....BIG HUGS!!!<P>I think that you and Guard would each benefit greatly from separate appointments with Steve Harley pronto!!!<P>Think about it....mention it to Guard.<P>Could only help.<P>Hugs, Prayers and Strength,<P>Sheba

RMA--Well, I'm no saint. The months just turn into years...<P>Sheba--Guard did offer to contact Steve Harley during the time that I didn't want to do anything for the marriage. I think that is a good suggestion.<P>Guard came to the board this morning, read this thread and is angry. I'm awaiting an email he's writing to me, but we're in a terrible spring snow storm, the power keeps cutting off, computer servers are down. I'm on pins & needles. He says I have misrepresented him & his actions, but he's writing it better than he can say it...so I wait.<P>I did call our counselor yesterday. Apologized to him for not taking his counsel in Jan. (stay away from the OM) and generally running amok. Guard has been seeing the counselor regularly. The C was able to phrase some of what Guard has been telling me so that I understand it a little better...I feel like Guard and I aren't even speaking the same native language. Worse than than Mars/Venus stuff.<P>I just don't understand why, if we now both want the marriage to work, and we both have cut contact with our OP why it feels so "off" to me? I just re-read that last sentence, I guess that's pretty self-explanatory. 2 years of awfulness, on both our parts (me with some whopping LBs & then the OM) is going to create some wretched backwash.

Lor,<BR>UGGGHHH!!!!<P>Okay, what you did was a perfect - or almost perfect plan A (OM wasn't a surprise after 18 months....)<P>So, I suggest you move to plan B NOW, with no contact with OM, or Guard. <P>Just my "gut" advice!!!<P>Lord, God, I just lift this marriage to you again, and ask you to put a hedge of protection, and Lord, I pray for Truth, because the truth will set you free. Lord, expose all lies, and expose all truth, In Jesus Name, Amen.<P>

Lor,<BR>I am anguished over everything that is happening to you. I feel so bad for you. I am leaving work right now, and am going to pray and pray for you both all the way home. The Lord will work this out. I know you trust Him.<P>Love and prayers,<BR>AW

Hi Lor -<P>Came to check on you....glad you posted!!<P>I think that you and Guard have a little "ping-ponging" going on.....I feel that Steve would REALLY be able to help you two with it and also with your communication techniques.<P>How you have both been approaching each other and the situation is not working completely...there is something "missing" that needs to be discovered and added to Plan A for you both. <P>I don't know if it is how things are said or how you each listen (or don't listen!!) but it might just be as simple as learning a more effective manner!!<P>Imagine having all this upheaval done with just by discovering what that manner is.....Harley could possibly do that for you.<P>BIG HUGS to BOTH of you,<P>Sheba<P>PS - Guard, don't be defensive....we want you BOTH to grow and rediscover each other!!! Give it a chance - it CAN WORK!!!!

Lor, I'm sorry that Guard is angry about this thread... I know that what I wrote was angry, but I still feel that way. No, God is not done with him - He's never done with any of us. But what Guard needs to also realize is that what he felt or feels about you being with someone else is only the tiniest, minutest little fraction of what you, and I and so many others have felt throughout our own ordeals. Guard hurt himself - you did not hurt him. If he had been at home being the husband and father he wants to be now, there would never have been any question about the appropriateness of your friendship with the so-called OM, because there would have been no opportunity for it to have developed.<P>I hope, if he reads any more of this thread, he tries to realize just how hurt and angry many of us are on our own behalf AND on yours. Perhaps some of my own anger oozes out in situations like this, I don't know. But we are raw here - and he needs to remember that.<P>I hope I was at least slightly coherent! I've had a lot going on in my life of late, so my stress level is not pretty... and my tolerance is just a tad on the nonexistent side <P><P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I can see clearly now,<BR>the rain is gone ...

Sorry I disappeared yesterday. Major blizzard, still no travel in the city today, power outages off & on all day. I don't know how many times I rebooted the computer, only to be knocked off or the power to go out.<P>Guard has a 4 wheel drive and arrived at the house shortly before noon yesterday. I had read his long email. So we went over his issues with me. And he and shovelled snow together for about 2 hours, that's a bonding experience, especially with the kids climbing the piles and knocking it back onto the driveway and sidewalk.<P>From my message yesterday and his anger, basically, he doesn't think I've told you how hard he has tried and what a good Plan A he has done. He's been wonderful, better than I did with my first 3 (uh 6-9?) months of Plan A. He's just really frustrated with having had to move into this house. He wanted to move home. I wasn't ready for that then (the double whammy of withdrawal of OM & fear of trusting Guard). Yes, a week later, 2 weeks later, withdrawal getting better, fantasy retreating, and realizing that Guard is and has always been my husband, we've got 20 years together, 17th anniversary creeping up in 2 months. Guard sees me daily, calls, emails, gives me gifts with good thought behind them, brings me lunch...he is doing good.<P>The other thing he thinks is that you guys don't know how rotten my behavior was with OM. I think you do, as I've posted often enough, even if I didn't start threads. True, I didn't post as much as I could have about the OM, I didn't want to encourage anyone to follow this path. Since I broke contact, I haven't posted when I've tried to call OM, because, well, I haven't gotten anything but an answering machine, so I feel I've kept no contact (through no choice of mine ) and I know you all would just say DON'T DO THAT. Sheesh, I know the rules, I can tell myself that. It's been 5 weeks since I had the no-contact talk with the OM, but I have wanted to and tried to contact him. However I haven't dialed any of his numbers for 3 weeks, nor driven by his house, which is only about 8 blocks from mine (I haven't walked by either, lest you think I'm talking technicalities). <P>And, my behavior during these past months is comparable to Guard's when his affair was first starting and I didn't know and he hadn't yet started moving out. Except with me, Guard had moved out again when I started to spend alone time with OM.<P>I could list all the things I never did that Guard did, but as he has said, he can't change what he did. Now I can't change what I did, even though I didn't get into an affair as deeply as Guard did. That's why it still bothers me when she emails after its been over 6 months. I know she has drawn him back in when he thought he had ended it...and vice versa. If I heard from OM right now, I'd like to think I'd tell him I'm reconciling to my marriage, but I also know what he would say. He says divorce for me, after what I've been through, is a "no brainer". Obviously he's never heard of MB or divorce busting. He left his 13 year marriage for no good reason, he didn't love his wife. Nor would he go to any kind of counseling with her. Ugh. Despite the OM's story of no marital infidelity, I have a good idea what that meant (at the very least, woman sighted on the horizon), I just didn't want to think about it. He also says divorce is when the love stops or there's a separation. He simply didn't know what to make of my 6th & then 7th separations, he figured I was as good as divorced. And now, I simply can't give any thought to about what he thinks of me or of my marriage. It doesn't matter...(blocking thoughts, can't go on with this train of thought)<P>But Guard and I did have a really good talk yesterday. I've agreed to go back to counseling, his choice of our usual counselor, pastor, try Steve Harley, Retrovaille, MB retreat/weekend...or my personal favorite...a beach in Mexcico (uh, I think we'd still need the counseling, but we could, reconnect )<P>Reconciling with Guard scares me. With good reason, given how our other reconciliations have gone. We're somewhere way beyond "last chance". I had a thought that we've been so separated and changed that we're almost new people in a new relationship. If only we can drop the crappy baggage...<P>But, as our counselor has said, at least with Guard and I, we know what the other person is carrying as baggage... with a new person, it isn't as if they don't have baggage, you just don't know where/what/why it is and how it will affect you.<P>Not quite ready to slip over to the Recovery Board,<P>

Hi Lor,<P>Sorry this is happening yet again to you. Sometimes life just does not work out. Try and take it one day at a time. <P>Sorry I have not responded sooner but I was so angry that he did this yet again. Please try and not beat yourself up.<P>How are you children doing? I hope they are handling this well.<P>(((((((((((((((lor)))))))))))))

Hey there...<P>Glad to read your latest post on this thread. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Reconciling with Guard scares me. With good reason, given how our other reconciliations have gone. We're somewhere way beyond "last chance". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Actually, I think you are in a really good place now...I know it doesn't seem like it. But, I think you have both come to a place where you can reconnect, scary as that is. <P>I have deep, deep sympathy for you and all you have been through...I cannot imagine how you've done it. I also have deep sympathy for Guard...I've read his posts and felt he was sincerely trying, and felt it took a lot of strength for him to admit he'd been an idiot after 6-7 times and all he'd put you thru. I hope that counseling gives you both the hope you need to continue on this journey.<P>prayers to you both---<BR>Kathi

TNT--it scares me when things are bad enough for you to say UGHHH. Thank you for the prayers. Holding off on Plan B (as usual )<P>AW--Yesterday the words "for now, we but see through the glass, darkly" (1 Cor 13). I thank you for your prayers and know that your glass is dark as well.<P>Terri--you made perfect sense to me. But then, we have talked fairly frequently. He did point out something from your post, and I don't know how to do that copy thing, but it was:<P>"you had a right to find some friendship"<P>Friendship yes, fall in love with another man, or have an affair, no. Just as Guard was not/would not/is not justified in finding another woman because of what I have done. I know there is a whole time continuum and behavior escalation that you were thinking of and have watched me go through, but justification is justification and, although understandable, not necessarily right. <P>Guard does understand that his actions certainly opened the door for any other man. He left me, came home, left me, etc. I stayed true for at least 18 months and then became worn down by rejection and added to the distance between us myself and let the OM--who was knocking at my door--into my life.<P>But he can't go back and change that either. And I think that's what I wish, probably what a lot of us wish--that the distancing, the affair, the fall-out would simply cease to exist.<P>It is very difficult to lift your head and realize you have devastated the people in the world you truly love. And even more painful to be reminded of it when you are trying to change. <P>You had every right to say what you did, Terri, it comes from your pain. You've handled your behavioral anger with your H very well, but it is, or has been there. Make sure you're dealing with it. {{{{{{Terri}}}}}}}}<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Let love be genuine...hold fast to what is good; love one another." Rom 12:9-10

Sheba--Thanks for your thoughts. I think it's pretty obvious there is something wrong in the way Guard & I communicate. Also, thanks for your message to him. I'm going to email it to him, because even though he stopped in yesterday, it made him NOT want to come back.<P>Paha--thanks for your thoughts. The kids don't know anything is different, other than Guard is living somewhere new. Since our first separation in Aug 98, Guard has been out of the house for more than a total of 12 months, so this has become life as it is for them. The 12 year old wants him home. The 14 year old is getting less angry and asked me to tell him that she "really loves him". Very nice.<P>Kathi--I appreciate the prayers. My pastor said something similar that we may now be in the right place. I'm not crazy in that "got to know what he is doing"/stalking mode. And neither is he. But we like to know what the other is doing and do "lightly" check up. It just bites when we check up and find something...<P><BR>

Lor,<P>I know that you both need to "reconcile" in your mind before you can move forward, but it seems that all I am hearing is blame blame blame, justify justify justify, like both of you are keeping score.<P>Given that Guard has had contact with OW in the recent past, and somehow this is being justified - and that you have attempted contact with OM, I think both of you would do well to continue on with the counseling, but - I would not discount my "gut" feelings, and I still suggest you going to plan B with absolutely no contact with OM, and absolutely with no "attempted" contacts, etc....<P>You are absolutely right in that the OM is way off base and not marriage material whatsoever - in that you "end your marriage when the feelings are gone"..... Character and Integrity compared to Guard's is really lacking.<P>Guard has an addiction - and now you understand how strong it can be. But, your Guard is definitely committed to his marriage, loves you like crazy, and is definitely more "marriage material" than this OM ever could be. <P>Guard's main problem is addiction to OW. Regardless of what OW's problem is, he needs help in overcoming. And - as you know, addictions can cause all kinds of quirky behavior - because the addiction is so strong, the addicted person needs to do whatever it takes to provide an environment where the needs or highs from the addiction can be attainable.<P>Addiction is very very slimy - it can cause blame, justification, manipulation, jumping through the hoops, etc. you know what I mean.<P>Think about the heroin addict, and how the addiction to the drug causes them to do things they would never do. It doesn't mean they don't love someone when they do rotten things - it just means they are controlled by the addiction, and the person who is addicted is really having a hard time dealing with the things they do, vs. the things they want to do.<P>I know Guard loves you, wants the marriage to work, but he needs a strong reason to overcome this addiction, and this is why I suggest plan B with no contact with OM as well. <P>But, maybe the counselor can help you both, but realize that you are not dealing with the commitment level of Guard, but the addiction.<P>Strong prayer against strongholds advised.<BR>TNT<BR>

TNT--I've only recently realized how "justified" I felt. It felt "righteous" but it wasn't "right". <P>I don't exactly know when I slid from doing what I knew was right in God's will to doing what felt right. There is a world of difference between the two...and the whole infidelity & divorce forums are full of the end results in following feelings.<P>Blame. Yes. The roots of this mess are deep in Guard & my relationship. We both know we can't change the past. But there are feelings attached to past behavior & reactions that still reverberate through today's interaction. Discovering the difference between forgiveness and handling the past are the key.

Dear Lor<BR> I have followed your post for several months. For some reason it is you I most closely relate to. After Gaurd wrote that letter/post about wanting to be back with you-I cried. It all seemed so sad. I really want a letter like that from my husband. For whatever reason I believe you and Gaurd can be happy together. I can't even imagine what youv'e been through. You are in my thoughts and prayers.<BR> Kathy

Lor:<P>I just wanted to let you know that while I do appreciate all the crap you have both been through, I truly believe that you can work your way through it. I'd give Steve Harley my pick for helping you with working through your marriage, because you both are familiar with these concepts and how they work (and why you're supposed to do the things Harley tells you to do... ).<P>I'd disagree with tnt (my first time ever??) in terms of Plan B. I feel as though you two have just had a little spark on some tinder. You need to feed it carefully. Plan B would be akin to dousing this spark with a big ol' bucket of cold water. I think the two of you should be working on POJA issues, focus on each resoving your own "fears" (which are legit) with the help of the other, and getting to a state where you are ready to move back in (because it can be a lot faster recovery once you're together). Give Steve a try, I think he'd be able to help you achieve this more quickly than anyone else.

Hey Lor, thought I might check in on you. My my my!<P>You are still a tortured soul, but you are getting closer to the old Lor.<P>Going on vacation...take care!<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13