Phew! Thank you pw for seeing what it is that is the most valuable asset my W and I posses, the honesty of communication between us. It didnt just happen we had to work at it and face our own prejudices and fears.<P>Hey guys listen up to what I am saying and what I tried to say before.<P>I was faced with losing the woman I loved and become like most of you who are fighting to understand infidelity and trying to avoid divorce and trying to get your marriages back on the rails!!!!!!!! I chose a different way to most to keep my marriage together and IT HAS WORKED..!!!!!!!! I dont give a rats whether it is considered immoral or sinful or if God is going to throw me into hell for being happy.<P>The question of vows that were made up for us when we were kids who did not know a dam thing about life has no meaning to me. Ask me now what vows I would say and what promises I would say to my W and they would be very different to the ones that were read from a book and had nothing to do with my heart at all.<BR>I have no fear of what God might say or judgement or any of the religiosity that surrounds marriage vows or God. (more fire and brimstone over that statement huh?)<P>Ask any person who has committed adultery if they were thinking about their vows when they did it.?<P>As for the puritans who are condemming me for my choice and ignoring the fact that it is working and we are very happy. <BR>Didnt Jesus say somewhere "you who have not sinned cast the first stone" ?<P>To me sin is S.I.N. SELF INFLICTED NONSENSE!<P>Committment in marriage is what you believe it to be. I am deeply committed to my marriage and my W same for my W. ! just because most of you see committment as having sex only with the one partner (for life) does not mean that our committment to our marriage is any less than yours is to yours? <P>I would go as far as to say that we are MORE COMMITTED TO OUR MARRIAGE than a lot of people are to theirs! Ours is still together after 30 years and 4 children! and happier than most! DOSENT THAT SAY SOMETHING TO YOU????<P>I never said that our way was for anyone else and I did not post here trying to say that it is a good or bad way to save marriages, I posted cos I had been lurking awhile reading posts and saw very little about what worked for people and took the risk of posting only to show that there are different ways of thinking that can be successful too. <P>Sheba, will try answer some of your questions that are not covered already.<P>I can only say for myself not for my W.<BR>My affairs were not because of something wrong in the marriage that I was aware of. I was in business my W not working bringing up the kids. <BR>I think it was more my ego, I thought my secretarys understood me and knew my business needs so well and could look after me with appointments organising aircraft and travel arrangments and it seemed natural to have sex with them being the high flyin successful executive that I was. Never considered it was wrong but did feel guilty after. Upshot W found out after some months she was devastated but forgave me. Guess that made me feel comfortable again and the next affair started many months later. When W found out about that one she was so angry and hurt so had an affair herself to get back at me I think. I continued my affair and she finally said enuff and left.<BR>We then went through what most of you are going through. Marriage couselling etc. Was not very good though, no highly skilled help available at that time, we didnt have Dr Harley or anything sophisticated to advise us so when she came back home I left, then I came back home and she left, was like musical houses for quite some time (10mths or more I think)arguing fighting discussions that always seemed to end in an unfinished argument. <BR>In one talk we decided together to take a chance of remaining married to each other deciding to live together and work things out and we sorta did for the next 10 yrs or more. (no affairs by either in this time)<P>Then she came up with this that I have posted on, I was scared outa my wits.<P>I dont think the responsibilities of being married weighed much with me I was happy to be married and never saw her or the kids as a burden to me. <BR>I jus think I was ignorant, self centered, thoughtless, and too full of myself to think about vows consequences and what I as doing to my wife and family, a slow learner you might say.<P>Your question on friendship first lover second, jus meant that we had to get to know the guy reasonably well first and see on a vibrational level if there was a chance of developing a friendship there between the three of us before any sex could take place, and thats what happened, he is a good friend.<P>This was not to justify what we did. My W wanted to feel safe and comfortable with him first. Her safety was paramount to me too.<P>I am not ashamed of my life and the decisions I made in it and if asked if I woud change anything in it I would not.. <BR>I have learned lots from my pain from my mistakes (if I can call them that) from my fears, from my attitudes, from my thoughts from my actions, from my feelings, and I take full resposibility for them, all I can say is I am much wiser more peaceful more happy than I have even been in my life and I love my wife and family to bits and have a very happy relationship with them all. <BR>A lot of water has gone under this bridge.<P>To answer another question about if I would like my kids to be bought up like myself or whatever it was that was commented on in one of the posts.<P>I make no judgement for them, they are going to live their lives as they see fit and if they wish to do as I do I will neither encourage nor discourage them. <BR>I support and respect them as people who have a life to live and their own decisions to make. Will only guide them when they ask and only suggest with no expectation of compliance.<P>They are well adjusted hard working good kids no drugs no alcohol and we have an extremely good loving relationship with them.<P>They are unaware of our arrangement. I believe it is none of their business and would not voluntarily inform them of it. Not for my benefit but for theirs. <P>I really dont care who knows but I do care how my kids may feel and it is for that reason I would not tell them. If they find out of their own accord then so be it, their karma and lessons to go through.<P>I have bared my soul here without shame or regret and have been as honest I can be with it. I am no angel and never tried to make out I was. <BR>In spite of the judgements and condemnations some of you have placed upon my head I thank you all for your replies and sincerely hope you are as happy with your lives as I am with mine... I have learned much about you and your attitudes too. Thank you all. <P><BR><P>------------------<BR>If here is the only place I can be...now must be the only time I can have...GM<BR>

I wonder if anthony is reading this?

LoveWasBlind -<P>I wondered the very same thing!!<P>Here we were all trying to spare their marriage from this, and now some are saying this is OK. <P>I don't want to judge what someone is doing in their marriage, and I understand he's saying it works for them. That's fine. It wouldn't work for me, I'm affraid. I don't think I could do something like that, personally. That's just me. <P>And besides, I think this is different from Anthony's situation, if I've read it right.<P>Anthony, I hope all is well for you and your wife, and that this site won't cause confusion to you after what we said earlier when we were replying to you. This is a situation where the husband and wife are both consenting to have sex with another party, together. It's a mutual friend. I can't go along with it personally, I just don't want to judge. As with your situation, I felt very strongly that it was wrong because your wife was meeting someone else, alone, and seemed to be developing emotional ties with him.<P>You know, none of this is easy. All of it is complicated and we are all from different backgrounds and beliefs, so we are bound to have different viewpoints. <P>I hope everyone has a great weekend and that each of us finds some time for ourselves, some time to be happy within us, some time to take a vacation from our problems (got that from a movie called "What About Bob", which I think was quite funny.) It's not a bad idea:<P>A vacation from our problems!<P>I could handle that! Speaking of vacations. My husband will be starting his next Thursday for 11 days. I don't know if I should be happy or not. I guess we'll see. We did spend most of today together, and unbelievably, it went quite smooth, no major problems. So, we'll see. He knows he's pushed me to the end of my rope, so maybe he's going to get a grip and try just a bit harder, while he still has the chance. <P>Isabelle

GM -<P>Thank you for your help in developing a better understanding of a subject that has somewhat touched my relationship with my H.<P>I spoke before of the people around him being amorous and I now am certain that it is a different thing for the most part. They do things deceitfully and with total disregard for other people.<P>Your situation does not parallel that and I feel that even though the original motivations such as ego, excitement can be seen in both, you have more morals than they do!! You are not hurting anyone since all parties are honest.<P>I am sorry if my need for answers has put you in an uncomfortable position and hurt you by drawing out this thread. It was, in my opinion, a very nice and unselfish thing for you to do to expose yourself to all this in case it could help others.<P>And I thank you for it!!<P>Good Luck to you and your wife.<P>A Hug for being so kind,<P>Sheba

GM<P>Ok, at first I thought "I'm gonna stay away from this one", but after I've read your subsequent posts and some of the replies, oh well, here goes. <P>Your situation made me pause to think - a lot. I do admire the honesty you and your wife share. That's something H and I are working on. And I've got to say that the fact that you made staying married a priority says a lot for you. Whether or not I agree with you morally or ethically doesn't really matter - not my marriage. And, I gotta say, you've got.....courage.<P>But, I'm a little confused. I read in one of your posts that you had been hurt by the earlier infidelities. You, at one point, did expect from this marriage what most of us do. Is it possible that you're just "settling"? <P>Now, before I'm misunderstood, it's just a thought that crossed my mind. You married with the belief in fidelity, you were unfaithful (for whatever reasons) and were hurt when you were the betrayed. Your attempt at counselling didn't work, But you valued your wife, and your marriage, obviously a great deal, so you guys came up with this plan that even you had misgivings about. It seemed to me anyway that you agreed because the alternative would be to lose your wife and marriage and you were not willing to do that. I find that dedication commendable. <P>However, you know, to solve a number of problems, we've all used the "as if" method, act "as if" you have a future, "as if" you still find him/her desirable and eventually, you will get something back and it won't be "as if" anymore. It'll be real. You know, smile on a bad day and it'll make you fell better inside, too. OK, I didn't explain that well, but you guys know what I mean. So, could it be possible, that, in agreeing and proceeding with such a plan, maybe, just maybe, because you perceived it as the only way to keep your marriage, your "as if" became the way you think. Maybe you felt, at one point anyway, that these were the terms upon which you could keep your wife and more or less "settled" for less than you would have really wanted (since you obviously expected fidelity initially and it seems as though you would have continued to expect it had you not been faced with this one and only alternative)? Before long, the "as if" became reality, just as it does for us when we pursue a different goal? Once the ball got rolling, so to speak, it was easier to concentrate on the good and downplay the disadvantages of the situation until you formulated a new way of thinking, which may or may not have been the outcome if you hadn't been left with such limited options? Before you had to make such a choice, your feelings, at least from what I read, were very different. We are all products of our experiences and our beliefs are shaped by so many different factors.<P>We've all made the best of situations that we weren't crazy about, sometimes to the point of convincing ourselves that they were acceptable to us. I believe this is one way we protect ourselves.<P>I know I didn't explain this very well. My brain's working on thoughts, not words, right now. Don't know why this came to me. I do know that, sometimes, it's easier to MAKE ourselves believe in something when not believing carries a very high cost. And there aren't many higher costs than losing someone you love.<P>I wish both of you luck. I do agree with you on one thing - your wife and your marriage, no matter how it is defined, is a top priority for you, and for that I give you much credit. And, I gotta admit, you gave me something new to think about for a while!<P><BR>

Sheba, please dont feel bad, I was not hurt and was thankful to you for drawing me out..thanks for your good wishes and hugs too.. good luck in your quest for peace and happiness in your relationship as well.<P>Lostva, When I got married I had no expectations that I was aware of, I was very young. Didnt know zit.<BR>I dont understand the as if thing sorry. I guess hindsight makes it easier to see what might have been perhaps.<BR>I went with what I thought was right for me to do and it worked and for that I am very thankful. She was my priority and still is, and I dont have any expectations for the future, will cross that bridge when it reaches me.<BR>Thanks for your best wishes...<P>I have been honored by you all.<P>Many blessings<BR><P>------------------<BR>If here is the only place I can be...now must be the only time I can have...GM<BR>

GM,<P>I think the title of this thread is misleading. Maybe it would be better described as "consentual extramarital sex can work!" Would have been more letters to type, but it would have been more accurate, I think. The "infidelity" most of us know involve a breach of trust, lack of honesty, lack of communication, and most of all deceit. In a relationship, those things DO NOT work, under any circumstances. So, like I said, the title of your thread is misleading and could be one of the reasons why you were met with such criticism early on.<P>You and your W are certainly practicing the rule of honesty, no doubt about that. You and your W are certainly practicing the policy of joint agreement, no doubt about that. I have no judgment regarding whether your chosen and accepted lifestyle is right or wrong, moral or immoral. You two are consenting adults, and I don't feel that's for me to judge. But I do know that it wouldn't be right for me. For starters, since sex is more of an emotional act for me than a physical act, I know it would make things way too complicated. Secondly, I am monogamous by nature. I know this may sound really odd coming from a betrayer, but it's true. While I was having my affair, the OM was my only "lover." My H held the untarnished place as my closest "family member." My affair lasted 7 months, and during that entire time, I only had sex with my H once, only at his request and due to my own guilt. I couldn't have shared that part of myself with both of them during the same time period. It would have been way too confusing.<P>But, like I said, if it works for you and your W, more power to you. I don't think you are going to get very many people on this forum to either approve or envy you. But, a lot of us do understand that you're just trying to make this work like the rest of us.

New Woman:<P>Thank you! I've been struggling with the title of this thread ever since I saw it! I guess I wouldn't call what GM and his W are doing "infidelity." You are right that they are practicing the policy of joint agreement and the rule of honesty, probably better than my W and I are. It seems such an odd way to "run" a marriage, though, and I certainly know I could never live that way.<P>As I stated before, I believe "marriage" serves important spiritual (not necessarily religious) functions, and the idea of physically sharing a spouse with another goes against ALL that I think marriage stands for. However, if it works for GM & his W, then so be it. I have a feeling, as I stated before, however, that they're going to pay for it one way or another in the future.<P>New Woman, thanks for verbalizing what I was feeling. <P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Lone Star (edited August 01, 1999).]

Woooooo-eee! Hot topic!<P>Once again, my compliments, new woman on a profound post. Couldn't find ways to say it better mesel'. <P>And my dear colleague, LS...my faith's restored. Just like me, you're always one to find an interest in "The Truth". Even if it doesn't necessarily fit our own brand of reality.<P>GW... if this works for you, more power to you. It wouldn't work for me, for sure. But, hell, I on'y know what I know. There's more'n one way to get where one wants to go.<P>I confess to curiousity, yes. You've certainly chosen an interesting path.<P>Be well.<P>------------------<BR>That's right, you're not from Texas, that's right you're not from Texas. Texas wants you anyway. Lyle Lovett<P>"When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries of life disappear and life stands explained." Mark Twain, 1898.<P>

New Woman, Yes thank you I agree though it wasnt meant to mislead..I did not think deeply about the title when I wrote it and have to say I didnt feel right about it later but didnt know why and you have made it clear for me too thanks..maybe it shoulda bin sumthin like 'What I did to avoid infidelity.?? dunno....<BR>I knew I would get some flak over the post but not at all disappointed.<BR>I am still very appreciative of the interest and comments and what I gained from the experience..<P>Lone Star and Dunmac..thank you for your contributions also...<P>Lone Star...there is no free lunch..we all pay the consequences of our actions thoughts and feelings...what you sow you reap...<P>I am glad I dont share the same feelings as you do about the future of my relationship or fear negativity and lack of faith would be my constant unwanted companions...<P>I would like to come back to this forum when and if the relationship changes in any way and again give an honest update whichever way it was, but I guess if there is an interest to anyone to know, lol...maybe all would have moved on by then...<P>Many thanks<P>------------------<BR>If here is the only place I can be...now must be the only time I can have...GM<BR>

Some of you have been talking about what an “honest” relationship GM has with his W. I don’t see it.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>3 yrs ago W said she wanted to have an affair to explore her sexuality...upshot of talk was that she would leave me to do it if she had to...so my choice...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That’s hardly honesty; that’s emotional blackmail.<P>But, like many other’s, I agree... if it works for you, so be it! I’m certainly not going to judge your choice. More power to you since it seems to be working.<P>

I know that most of you may not agree with the religious perspective but being a Christian I shouldn't have said you will all be punished becuase I do not know and that was wrong of me. But I can offer you certain perspectives that may cast a different light on the subject. GM, I do not know you and I shouldn't judge anyone without judging myself, I am sorry for what I said but I just think you should look deeper into your situation. Maybe you should look at Psalm 52:<P>Why boastest thyself in the mischief, O mighty man? the goodness of God endureth continually. Thy tongue deviseth mischiefs; like a sharp razor, working deceitfully. Thou lovest evil more than good; and lying rather than to speak righteousness. Thou lovest all devouring words. O deceitful tongue. God shall likewise destroy thee for ever, he shall take thee away, and pluck thee out of thy dwelling place, and root thee out of the land of the living. The righteous also shall see, and fear, and shall laugh at him. This is the man that made not God his strength; but trusted in the abundance of his riches, and strengthened himself in his wickedness.<P>I do not condemn you GM, I will pray for you

Agree with DuncanMac - This has turned out to be quite a thread. Thanx again, GM, for your honesty! It seems to have forced other people to be really honest too about what they think is acceptable in their own marriages/relationships. And I know that it's helped me clarify my thinking on this.<P>It's also made me realize just how many different ways there ARE to involve an OP or OP's in a relationship between two people. For one thing, I have to agree that there IS a real difference between swinging (which basically involves at least one other COUPLE) and what the French call a menage a trois (a threesome like GM's), involving just ONE other person (of either sex).<P>As I said, I've swung (long ago) but never done just a threesome. Don't know how I'd react, especially watching another GUY and my W if his W or girlfriend wasn't involved too. (But it would be better than NOT watching!) With another W, it could work. I don't know. I have found myself thinking a lot lately about these kinds of possibilities. Because, as I've said elsewhere, I've pretty well stopped believing in monogamy. (Not as an ideal, but as a state that most people are capable of maintaining.) Frankly, I'm almost getting to the point where I think I'd rather just be celebate than having to live through the kind of crap that a relationship ruined by infidelity involves. I did celebacy for a number of years after my 1st marriage ended, and I was perfectly happy. (Well, not PERFECTLY. But happy ENOUGH!)<P>--Wex

Excuse me - "celibate," "celibacy!" I've been hanging around with too many bad spellers on this forum!<P>--Wex

WOW-alot to read and my eyes are killing me!!!<P>All I have to say is first, I do not agree with your choices, but WE as religious people(some of us) should hate the SIN and not the SINNER.<P>Don't judge others, let God do the Judging.<P>All in all when the time comes Gm will face the Father, then and only then, will he understand what we tried to tell him.<P>The one thing I kept thinking of that no one mentioned yet was the FOUR children......with all the affairs....moving in and out of their mother and father.....it is really sad. I hope they will be ok emotionally!!<P>God Bless You ALL!!!!!

Up to the top for Lost Soul<P>(Hi GM - how are things going?)