Hello everyone, <BR>I realize my initial appearance here has not exactly endeared me to the forum population at large. That's ok, I am not here to give or get *feel good* strokes, I came for the same things I expect from/give to my my RL. friends: The truth, as we find it to be, and to share some compassionate help in sorting through, and, dealing with the jagged edges painful situations often leave us with. New perceptions, thoughts and ideas often yield solutions, where one would be hard pressed to find any. Before I could formulate my introductory post, However my ( sarcastic), temper got the upper hand in regards to a issue that is so very close to my heart: <BR>The spewing of indiscriminate pain and hatred toward babies, who, are blissfully unaware <BR>that such evil regard for them is being formed in the minds,/hearts/actions, of so called adults, before they even take their first breath, ( in some cases). (I hold a great respect for Daycare Disaster, as she *vents* away with never a hateful word toward the child personally, merely the unbearably painful situation itself. Kudos' DD, and there are others also , who have chosen not to condemn others in their pain). <BR>There are some here who are not living in reality. they don't like the cards they drew, so they kick and scream for everyone else to fold. Not gonna happen. <BR>I find that this section of the forum to be more reality based. The posts reflect a high degree of personal integrity, and an unwillingness to undergo ravaging compromises to cling to what is Not, and yet there is an abundance of strength and heart, and the courage to tell it like it is is and seek reasonable alternitives to planed for futures that are just...gone. Plus, since I am recently divorced, I feel most comfortable here <BR>I am truly not a mean person, but I have my *hot buttons* too. I don't believe that any <BR>person is "pure evil". Life is a series of trial and error, we learn and (hopefully) grow.<BR>I feel the only sure way to condemnation is to have a condemning heart. <BR>I hope I can be a helpfull presence here and find some fellowship. As *work-in-progress* <BR>I surely have have my faults. (call them as you see them please)! The problem I am facing at the moment is, trying to maintain a friendly relationship with my ex, as we share a son. I have been unable to do this because he keeps pushing over the *just friends line, (he always had a problem with that, regarding other women also) sometimes when we are having a good time together with our son, my ex has become very affectionate and whispered in my ear that he would like to spend the night...he never makes it through the whole night! He end up leaving (once he even blamed the dog's snoring as a excuse to leave!)<BR>He knows how much this hurts me. I once explained this to him, and asked him why he <BR>kept doing it, and he said, "you could have said, "no"! I am not strong enough to do that. I am in love with him. Always have been. Always will be. So I have been implementing a plan-b of sorts. No personal contact type thing. He picks up our son and takes him out, no e-mails, calling to *chat*, or personal questions...<BR>This feels terrible! But I know that he would come back & leave again a zillion times if I <BR>would let him, (until he fell for someone else of course), I wonder, will there come a time when I will feel inside that it's completely over? My mind already excepts this as a fact, but, my heart still say's "maybe not..." <BR>There is a lot more to my story than I have time to tell right now. Thank you to those that took the time to read this.<P>

Girlfriend,<P>I never thought I would ever say this but yes there does come a time when you accept what is happening. I am getting to that point. I think it started when I started posting in this forum. I still love my H but we had a rotten marriage and I do not want that back. <P>We all try to be understanding to the pain that these situations cause. Sometimes we all have bad days. <P>Take care,<BR>Mitzi

Thank you Mitzi for responding. <BR>I have accepted this parting, and also do not want my marriage back. (thanks for reminding me about that part I just seem somehow unable to move on. Toward what? I mean, yes I have personal interests, and goals, and such,<BR>but, I feel like I'm just going through the motions, living life flat-lined. <BR>He was sending cards & presents, and books I might like (before the plan-b thingy), but he was never sincere, only didn't want me to go to court for support. Were the time we spent together about that too? <BR>No mitzi, I don't want him back. I want to love him as he loves me-very little! I need him to stay out to of my home/life. I am not welcome in his.<BR>

Hi girlfriend,<P>I have a hard time too when I hear about people trying to hold something together where there is obviously one of them who has no respect for the other. Then they spend years of misery "trying" to trust again, bouncing their emotions and their children's all over the map in the process for way too long. I'm sorry, I guess my story is about more than just one affair (my H cheated on me for the whole 14 years, maybe even before, of our marriage).<P>What I don't get is why you still would let him stay over after being divorced, especially when you know the disrespect your going to get in return when he leaves? I know you love him, that just doesn't end even in my case. But he is treating you pretty much like a hooker. You don't owe him sex and he has no right to manipulate you like that. What a louse he is! My suggestion is to be friendly is ok, but he gave up on "family time". You don't owe him a "family" that involves you. Let him have his "parenting" time with your son and still be friendly at the front door as he leaves. Otherwise, he is still having his cake and eating it too - which is what most guys like this (including my H) want.

GF,<P>Sorry you had to be here. I pray you will get some guidance in helping you deal with your divorce and perhaps a bit of understanding of what went wrong.<P>However, <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I find that this section of the forum to be more reality based. The posts reflect a high degree of personal integrity, and an unwillingness to undergo ravaging compromises to cling to what is Not, and yet there is an abundance of strength and heart, and the courage to tell it like it is is and seek reasonable alternitives to planed for futures that are just...gone.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>As opposed to the other forums? From this statement I get the feeling you think we are “holding on” to something that is absolutely gone forever. If so, then you haven’t done much reading on the subject of affairs.<P>This isn’t a slam, so please don’t take it that way.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Weirded, <BR>Thank YOU! That is exactly what I told him that last time... (bout two months ago): <BR>"I am not your Wh&%r"! I think because we still share some expenses, he felt he had the *right* to *play family*. (men don't like to pay for things they are'nt using <BR>My two year old always wants him to *come in and play*, It's hard to deny him that (although it IS getting much easier)! I don't know exactly why I let him stay. It seems so foolish to me right now. Probably just lonelyness and left-over wishing. I've heard about the *Seperation Sex* syndrome...I realy don't know...In any case, I have already begun what you have suggested and it DOES feel better than that horrible *used feeling*<BR>now that you mention it! I guess it will get better as I see less & less of him. <BR>Come to think of it, I just see now that I was actually REWARDING his intrusiveness, even if only rarely.<BR>Thanks for your reply Weirded.

Chris,<BR>Thank you for responding. Yes, I do honestly feel that some posters are holding on (even through outright abuse in some cases), to nothing. <P>"If so, then you haven’t done much reading on the subject of affairs." <P>Oh... not too much. only EVERY word written on the subject I could get my hands on like most people here <P>Don't believe every thing you read Chris. Sometimes you just have to stick your head out the window and take a good hard look around. It's still the *Real World* out there. <BR>Each person has to decide when to *give up the ghost*. Some people are hanging on to nothing. That can't be healthy.<BR>I wish you the best Chris. Thanks again for responding.<P>

Hey Girlfriend (sorry, just wanted to say it that way) I must have missed your inflamatory post, but I want to respond to this thread. You got me thinking. Thank you for that.<P>If you find this section more reality based, perhaps it is because we are dealing with the end of things--long term betraying spouses, the end of our marriages, divorce, child issues, finances, lawyers, court, etc. Most of us have been through Plan A, Plan B, separation, even reconciliations & recovery...followed by the demise of reconciliation and recovery...sad, real life stuff.<P>My divorce has been halted, but I could easily see myself letting my H sweet talk me into spending the night, even after divorce. We've even talked about the fact that our physical attraction has remained during most of this hellish 2 years, and he has moved in and out 7 times. Like weirded out says, I have a close friend who has said I'm behaving like a hooker, letting him be with me without the true commitment of a husband. I'll tell you what I tell her. "Oh, well" and the rest of what I say could be summed up by "Blah, blah, blah" Just because he broke his commitment to me, didn't mean I was not still his wife (doesn't compute after divorce, I suppose). I do know he wasn't just "using" me...since I was an equal participant/instigator. If you feel, or think you'll feel sad/yucky afterwards, don't do it. I thought your comment on "rewarding his intrusiveness" was interesting. I'm going to think on that one.<P>As for "holding onto nothing", we all have a progress to go through, some people just seem to whip through it within weeks. Some people, like me--and Chris--have been here since 12/98, and others longer. Just because I still hold out some hope for my marriage...as unlikely as it sometimes seems to me that it COULD WORK, doesn't mean that I'm not living my life, loving taking care of my kids, moving forward, and even healing the emotional wounds.<P>I watched OUT OF AFRICA the other night and Isak says to her cheating H Bror, "There're are a woman's undergarments in the back seat. You'll be moving into town, to the club." I was stunned. I never had that reaction of "you're out of here". It doesn't mean I haven't taken a good look at the "Real World", I just prefer a Marriage Builders world, where committment, constancy, love and no lovebusters are the rules.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Let love be genuine...hold fast to what is good; love one another." Rom 12:9-10

I do agree somewhat with Lor. I have gone through all the steps of Plan A and B and the other concepts on this forum. It was necessary - otherwise, if I had just shot him out the door, I would have probably regretted it because I would never had known the actual depths of his betrayal. I discovered a lot about my former life just by trying my best to save it, but what I really discovered is that there is something better out there for me and my children. No woman should have to put up with a man who doesn't respect her or their marriage.<P>Like I said, it did take me going through all these steps to know what I really had, and what that is is a huge 20-year lie. While I was in save the marriage mode, he'd want to be intimate - and I thought this was a move forward and good - then he'd be cruel to me afterward and say something sarcastic like "well that was special". I was so in love with him and have always been, thinking he still had an ounce of feeling left for me, and he'd make me feel like I could have been anyone (actually I think anyone else would have been treated better). Lovemaking without love and respect on both sides is just sex, no better than animals. By the way, Girlfriend, I believe he gave me herpes in the process (not confirmed by the test yet, so I need to get the blood test). BE CAREFUL.<P>I think I even heard Dr. Laura tell a woman who asked if she owed her seperated husband sex when he wanted it, because they were still married. The Dr. said if there was no love involved, you might as well be a hooker and no she didn't owe him intimacy after he's left and was not committed to the relationship anymore.<P>Girlfriend (I really wish I'd have thought of this name), my H would NOT have the audacity to try to lure me in at this point, but he does still try to have his cake and eat it too in other ways. He visits my boys here at our home instead of taking them. It irritates me but I think the kids are more comfortable that way. He wants to get out the lawnmower and cut the grass. He comes on the weekends and wants to wash our cars. He talks about how the grass needs fertilizer. He wants to give the boys baths and put them to bed (this was a rarity before). In many ways he is holding on to his "family life" and yet goes home to his apartment where who knows what wench is waiting for him. He's got it all just the way he wants it. Somehow we are still the legitimate part of his life that he needs, but he wants to have the loose free life too. This is how he's had it secretly for years now and it seems divorce is giving him the best of both his worlds - it makes me sick.<P>As far as him visiting at your home, why not just make arrangements to leave? By the way are you divorced or separated? I just lock the doors of rooms he's not to enter and put important stuff he's not to fool with in my trunk, and go grocery shopping or go out with friends while he "babysits" and I let HIM know when I will be back (that's what visitation is to me now - babysitting). If I have no where to go, I'll go to a neighbor friend's house and have a cup of coffee and talk, or stay in my room with the door locked and paint my finger and toenails, watch MY shows on MY TV, talk on the phone, exercise, whatever. If I get bored on those nights, I take a long walk too - but I stay out of his way and sight. He doesn't get his family anymore, he gets to babysit, period.<P>I can get long-winded. Maybe I'm venting, partly because he cancelled his babysitting this weekend due to work and I see him little by little letting the boys down more and more. (They still adore him).<P>Later, God bless.<P>Kathy

Just read that you are recently divorced, answered my own question. But wouldn't mind hearing back from you anyway. Hope you are doing well, at least today (everything seems to go day by day lately).

Girlfriend:<P>I am glad you found your place here on the forum and I hope you'll you will get the love and support you need from these outstanding people.<P>I went through a terrible time last week facing demons that resurfaced out of nowhere. I know you meant me when you talked about "hatred towards babies" and because of your stance on my thread a couple days ago, however, you don't know my story, or my pain or the devastation I have had to endure. Just as I do not know yours. Whatever your feelings are, I will not discount them, as I hope you will get past discounting mine.<P>Just as you are inclined to 'give in' to your ex-husband, I am inclined to 'give in' to my husband; by staying with him and trying to rebuild our marriage. Because I am deeply in love with him and he has demonstrated for a year now that he desperately wants to rebuild our marriage. <BR>A couple weeks ago, I didn't think I could continue because I was having such a tough time dealing with what has happened.<P>You see, I love and adore babies, contrary to what you think. In fact, I am Pro-Life and always have been-even when these beliefs were challenged personally last year. <P>For all our marriage I have longed for a child of our own but have been unable to have one. My pain comes from that fact my husband had a child with someone else.<P>Perhaps now you can understand a portion of my pain. My post was written from raw, heartwrenching pain. If you still want to nail me to the cross for feeling the OW was evil in deliberately getting herself pregnant, that's fine. It's only because you haven't walked that mile in my shoes and prefer the judgmental approach.<P>If you want your x-spouse because there's still something there and you can handle the aftermath, the feelings you'll feel when he leaves again, then you'll have to decide if the rewards are worth those feelings.<P>I wish you peace and understanding.<P>Catnip =^^=

Girlfriend,<P>I missed the post you are referring to. I stay mainly on the "divorced" site now. We all make mistakes and we all have hot buttons, you will still always find the support you need here. <P>As for Lor, I always agree with her on many issues. I think all of the sites, GQ, Just found out, I think they all are real. At that moment, where we are in life, it is VERY REAL. <P>I am one of the ones who has "whipped thru" the process as Lor would describe it. I do agree, some people out there in fact ARE hanging onto nothing. Myself, I gave 11 years of my life to someone. I am a person and I have feelings too. When he cheated on me, not once, not twice, but three times, and left on xmas, I felt I owed it to myself, to pick up and learn to get over this marriage.<P>I did try to Plan A. I tried a lot of things. I felt like I was playing with fate, or trying to act a certain way to get my husband back. I am not a weak person,although on Plan A I was. I can tell you, I took a lot of abuse those months, and didn't realize it but many years before. I do believe, that the person I was on Plan A, is not and will never be the person who I really am. So in a way, I felt it unfair to behave in that way.<P>Many people out there still holding on to the marriage, the dream that it will remain intact, or one day be what it was, I wish them the best. I think we all are going to take a slightly different path. I don't agree with many who feel "their way" is the "only way" because its not. <P>I have read many books on marriage, divorce, and relationships, and they all are good. Its how you incorporate those principles into your life.<P>I could have sat here and cried for months, even years, like some people here, but hey, I could die tomorrow and I damn well want to be happy when it happens.<P>I am very happy now. I feel in my circumstance, I made the right decision. I also feel that I would have been able to possibly go on and keep my vows, had I felt STBX could have changed, but he couldn't. And quite honestly, I DON"T want to anymore. <P>I know that I am a good person, with good values and a good heart. I deserve to be happy and I will go on and make the best of this situation. <P>Your comment on the heart and mind, has made me think too. In my mind, I know, that the marriage is over. In my heart, its taking some time, to learn to adjust to new traditions, new lifestyles and letting go of the pain. <P>I wonder if anyone out there, ever feels truly released from there first spouse?? <P>Prayers and hugs,<BR>Dana<BR>

Lonelymom,<BR>Your right....I never could put my finger on it.....thank you. I have never denied what I am going through.....In my mind...I know I can never have what I had with him again....it is over. In my heart I long for it. My heart sure is a slow learner and a hopeless romantic.....But boy...in my mind...I knew it was over the day he raised a hand to me.<P>Nancy

Girlfriend: How did you approach your XH regarding the no contact? How did he react? <P>I am kind of to that point myself and feel it is time to cut the ties but am hesitant. I have been Mrs. Nice Gal throughout this entire mess - for the children mostly - also because I don't have the energy, desire or knowhow to be a witch even though I probably should be. I am not saying I would get ugly now but firm in my desire that we need to cut the chit chat ties unless it involves the kids. It will be very hard for me because I know deep in my heart I long for the fairy tale ending but reality says it ain't never going to happen!<P>Happy Mothers Day!<BR>Missy2

Thanks to all of you who wrote! <BR>I'm sorry I couldn't reply sooner. This was a big weekend for us; In addition to M-Day, it was also my (older), son's 16th Birth day <P>So many of you expressed the questions and emotions of my own heart! what a complicated proccess we are in! What a blessing it is, that we are all here to help each other navigate this painfull time of enormous change! I am so greatfull to have found you all!<BR>Lor: <BR>I've been thinking about your post. <BR>This paragraph by AZ. on the GQ. board sums up succintly what I mean by "more realistic" <BR>(to ME)! <BR>"If you're missing a gene, count me in. I have so much admiration for those who can Plan A through all this. I always knew I'd be a better Plan B person than Plan A person. My H and I know each other too well for me to turn in to Miss Merry Sunshine. I don't mean this as a put down for you great Plan A'ers out there, but I tried it, and he kneI was acting. I'm not nasty and mean, I don't LB, I refuse to have a bad relationshipo with him, but I will not close my eyes to reality either". ( Thanks AZ!) <P>When I wrote, "holding on to nothing" I was talking about quality, not quantity. The amount of time a person spends trying to rebuild their relationship doesn't strike me as being as important as what they have to work with. A person I admire greatly once implored me: <BR>Girlfriend...If your going to put so much effort in, work SO hard...make it for SOMETHING...not for NOTHING!! <BR>Made sense to me. <P>Words are powerful., and, they convey something to the senses, As I read a person's postings, and responses to others, I just feel things about what I'm *hearing*. <BR> <BR>For instance, when I read your posts, I get a *feeling* that there's an intense mutual love <BR>between you and Guard. Despite all the pain and conflict, I just get a gut feeling that there <BR>was SOMETHING there to work for. ( I don't think it's unlikely at all btw, that you guy's will pull it together). <BR>In other cases, I read and I am filled with a feeling of intense pain and loneliness because of the sense that the poster is "living with the enemy" or in it alone, petty much. <BR>Some folks are not being treated with even a shred of human decency. Their partners are <BR>having children with others, bringing home std's, basically S**&tting all over them, in spite of their best plan a. (that's a tad beyond finding a woman's garment in the back seat, no?) <BR>There are situations here, it seems to me, where Harleys methods seem like gruesome <BR>"heroic measures" life support, where it might be best for all concerned to "pull the plug". <P>As for *letting* H spend the night...I said the same thing at first, to a couple of good friends who mentioned he might be using me, " I am getting what I need! How is that being used?!? <BR>I was also an "equal participant/instigator." at times, but I know he doesn't love me now. <BR>As that became more & more obvious by his careless cruelty, spending time with him( not <BR>necessarily intimate time). began, not just to hurt, but to "burn" like "White Nitrate". <BR>(An interesting aside : I always knew that his love for me was not as strong as mine for <BR>him, once we were past the initail infatuation stage).<P>Weirded Out: <BR>I tried to save my marraige like I was fighting for my very life! ( It actually felt exactly the same!) It took me almost two yrs. to finally cry "Unkle". So I was RIGHT with you when you said:<BR>"I would have probably regretted it because I would never had known the actual depths of his betrayal. I discovered a lot about my former life just by trying my best to save it." <BR>I, to this day, am still stunned by what I found out about the (un?) reality of my OWN life! <BR>What you said next, is a trouble spot for me right now cause I know it's true that no one deserves the type of mis-treatment we've experenced, but I'm shaky about the "better things out there" part.(Out WHERE?, What "things"?) <BR>This is my second relationship.<BR>I lived with my first H (commen law, what an icky term!), from my 16th birthday till I was 31yrs old. We have three children. He was unbelievably controling and did not want to be in a relationship with an adult. <BR>When I met mt current (ex)H, one of the biggest attractions was the FREEDOM I felt to mature and grow, without having to ask "permission" to do any little independent thing!<BR>I had no intention of abusing him with this freedom, I had no idea that he he had EVERY intention of abusing me with his.<BR>Now I see this so clearly.<BR>As for the rest of your post, I could have written evey word myself! (with the small exception of leaving the house while he visits our son). I do not trust him at ALL and I don't want him alone in our home.<BR>The best of both worlds...<P>"This is how he's had it secretly for years now and it seems divorce is giving him the best of both his worlds - it makes me sick."<P>AMEN! <p>[This message has been edited by Girlfriend (edited May 15, 2000).]

Catnip, <BR>I am sorry for the pain you expressed in this thread. It was *intense* just reading it. <BR>I hope that the path you choose brings you peace. <P>Lonelymom: <BR>Hope dies *hard* in the heart, doesn't it? <P>"I could have sat here and cried for months, even years, like some people here, but hey, I <BR>could die tomorrow and I damn well want to be happy when it happens." <P>You, my friend, need to change your name to," GUTSY MOM"!!! <BR>LOVE your attitude!!!! <P>"I know that I am a good person, with good values and a good heart. I deserve to be happy and I will go on and make the best of this situation." <P>That's a fabulous *Daily Affirmation* mind if I use it? <P>Thanks for writing. Give a yell if you need anything <P>Nancy: <BR>Isn't that the strangest thing!?! My heart too, betrays my mind, time & again! <BR>Your situation enrages me! I am terribly sorry for the horrible, twisted injustices you and your babies are suffering!! It is absolutely inhuman!! At such a critical time a person needs rest and love and support... There should be some legal *sanctuary* from these types of proceedings to allow for at least a minimal amount of personal healing. Geeezzzzzzzz! <BR>Hang in Nancy !<P>Missy:<BR>" How did you approach your XH regarding the no contact? How did he react? "<P>Actually, it was pretty tough, it took several attempts because he would use about ANY excuse to push the *personal contact* back in to play. He kept creeping back in little by little. <BR>At first I sent him a very firm e-mail informing him that I would not speak to him AT ALL unless the subject concerned our son. I asked that he make up a schedule for visitation (instead of just any time he felt like it!), and to pick our son up and TAKE HIM OUT. I told him he was not to come INSIDE our home for ANY reason. <BR>I thought that was pretty clear <BR>He had a hard time(to put it mildly),adhering to these *guidelines*. <BR>I started getting lot's of phone calls, and when I decided to just let the machine pick up all calls, I got lot's of messages, he sent cards, small gift's and things, then one day I bluntly asked him, " WHY", since he is the one who was miserable living with us, and can't stand to spend even one night here, why the calls & things"? I asked him to tell me; when he picked out the gift's, paid for them, brought them here, what, EXACTLY, was he thinking at the time? He could not answer me. He only said," I'll stop doing it. and he has.<BR>He still does other things, like *showing up* at the park where we play, followed us around <BR>in his car one day ect...He called today to wish me a happy Mothers Day... I sometimes <BR>think he confuses guilt & pity for love. He has trouble understanding emotions, it is hard for him to name or express them very well. <BR>I don't really know how to to it(plan-b type thingy), I just try to remember this:<BR>"People will treat you however you let them"<P>Thanks for the Mothers Day greeting Missy, I hope you had a good one! <P><BR>

Hi Girlfriend...whew!<P>I've finished reading all these posts on this thread...what a wealth of information! I really don't know if I'm a breezer or a hanger on. I found out about the PA my H was having in May of '99. We went to counseling, in recovery. Then (I thought everything was OK) he re-contacted OW in Sept '99. Found out in Dec. '99. He left in Jan. '00, asked for divorce in Feb. '00. So I filed about a month ago. It's been a difficult road. I didn't want this, but I got it anyway. I have the hardest time with those here who bemoan and bewail their fate to the Nth degree. Maybe I'm just being insensitive, but life is a journey...if you're still alive then you're not through with the journey regardless of how sad or difficult it is and sitting around being miserable isn't going to make things better. I have been thinking this since yesterday in reference to another thread that's been bugging me. Sorry to throw it in here, but I had to vent it. I think there are those who are holding on to "nothing". I think I was one of those at one time. I finally realized I had a life to lead...with or without my H. I may never love anyone again...at least not the way I love this man, but that doesn't mean I can't be happy. I am going back to school this Fall to continue my education. I have to believe that there are reasons for things happening...even the bad things. It's happened to me in other areas of my life before, so I believe it can happen this time too. You never know what's in store for you. Perhaps these things happen to help you discover your own strength and depth of character. I don't know. I certainly don't have all the answers. I get the feeling most people here don't agree with me about moving on and being positive, but I think it's important. It's gotten me through some rotten times. And believe me, I am not happy and positive all the time. I just try to keep a healthy positive outlook, but when it's time to cry I cry. I each chocolate. I watch a good tear-jerker movie with a box of kleenex. I listen to Dwight Yoakum's music. I boo-hoo to my heart's content and then I find I can go on and face the world with a smile and be positive again. I don't think I'm denying my feelings. I just refuse to be miserable.<P><P>------------------<BR>Blessed be.<BR>****************<BR>Keridwen<P>Keridwen_7@yahoo.com

Hi Keridwen,<BR>I think it only makes sense that people hang on until they are absolutely certain that there is NOTHING to hang on for. The amount of time that would take varies widely, I'm sure. <P>I was definitely a *hanger on* for way too long! There was very little clarity in our <BR>relationship right from the start, so it took a while to see *the forest*!<P>I know the thread you mentioned. I have the utmost respect for Nellie. Unlike NB. I do not perceive any fear in nellie's posts. I hear only exhaustion and bone numbing pain.<BR>Just as you do not deny yourself your true feelings, I think we must allow Nellie hers also. <P>With all of the responsibility her H has left her with ( just think of being dealt the most <BR>crushing blow of your life, and at the same time being left to care for so many babies, a <BR>farm, a job, ALONE!!) <BR>she must have very little time or energy to devote to her own healing. I don't think it's fair that we should tell her when her pain should abate. <P>I think she is doing the very best she can and my "Hat is off" to her. She is a special person and she will find her way, I'm sure.<P>I'm glad your going back to school! You have the right attitude about life. It is a journey, <BR>(School always felt like a <BR>(*Hallway To Anywhere* to me!).<P>Oh...BTW, I read the thread, (a while back), on Witchcraft & Magic. Fascinating!!! You <BR>presented your knowledge excellently! <BR>You certainly know your subject! Ever think of publishing something ?<BR>Thanks for taking the time to read and add to this discussion.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Girlfriend (edited May 16, 2000).]

Hey girlfriend,<P>Just for the record, I felt fear FOR Nellie, not that *she* felt fear. I worry that she will crack and fall into a pit of despair. I agree that she's very, very strong, but I still worry. She explained that I'm trying to be a fixer, and I have indeed backed away from trying to fix things for her.<P>By the way, you are <B>very</B> strong too!! <P>Take care...<P>

Sorry NB!<BR>When you said "I read and feel fear", (paraphrasing) I misunderstood.<P>BTW, Your pretty strong yourself!