for some time now I've been reaching out for her and always went the wrong way about it, due to my ignorance.(until I visited this site & have learned what I should be doing) I found this place & started to absorb all the information I could find. <p>When we finally sat down to talk for the 1st time in a LONG time, she said she didn't want me to try on false hope and we have to think about what we are going to do. <p>I'll basically be all done with school after the spring semester. I've had a feeling after that semester this was going to happen. I think we talked because she saw me giving with everything I have with a positive attitude and she could be EITHER getting scared because old feelings could be mustering. OR, there really is no hope. I refuse to believe that. I've asked for nothing in return and she did mention this afternoon notice of my giving & happy attitude I've had for about 2 weeks. It's not a display though and explained I realize now how much I liked being that way. I'm happier with myself which makes it 2nd nature to be a giver again. Then I said in a joking mannor "you should quit being a stick in the mud and come give it a try. You better watch out though.... it's addictive & habit forming." <p>My next breath went straight to the point. Shall I leave this evening or wait till tomorrow? She said nothing and I reminded her "this semester is almost over & the next one is basically the last one. It's a couple of months down the road if you can be ok with me here for that period. You know I haven't asked for anything & I don't expect anything. I'll not change my present attitude because I am happier, and hated being in the other shoes. When schools over, I'll pack my bags and go my way unless we've made progress and YOU don't want me to go. I can't live like we've been doing. She said yes she wants me to stay till school's out.<p>From there I said, "well ok I need to start looking for a part time job to help on the bills, get the credit cards paid off and start looking where I want to move." She just looked at me and asked "Are you going to move away? Like back to San Diego?" I said "I don't know... because I love you so much, I don't know if I could stay in the area. Let's give this a rest, but remember, all the stuff we have to go through and what we're gonna do with the house, daycare hunting etc etc." Our children have never been to daycare because of the quality family time we were able to provide working around them.<p>We sat there quietly until I made some funny jokes about our situation and watched her laugh and cry at the same time. I said to her "I'm not going back the way I was - unhappy. The welcome mat's out for you.<p>she sat and thought and cried more while my attention was with something funny on tv. I looked at her and said, "hey, we talked, got it on the table, delt with it & you shoud be happy you are getting what you want." <p>She stood up and said she needed to go for a drive to clear her head - not to get away from you so don't think that. I just need to clear my head <p>She returned about 15 minutes later and saw me smiling and giving as if nothing is going on.<p>I don't know what is going through her head. Any input? Am I wishing too much for a happy ending? Is she finally removing a brick from the wall? I just don't know.....<br>chance

Chance,<br>Good for you! Sounds like the wheels are turning in her head. You're on the right road. Keep up the good efforts and be patient. You have a good "chance" of saving your marriage and making it meaningful. God Bless, Poll

Chance - you are really handling this the right way. I WISH I had the courage to say those words "that I will not live this way anymore" - because I know my husbands response would just be "then leave". And I don't think I'm ready for that. Good luck and I think you are in a GREAT frame of mind for all this. You will probably have her back soon if she is really thinking about what you said!

Chance,<p>You ask if she may be removing a brick from the wall. She could be, but I've found that it is very hard to understand the female way of dealing with this. Maybe some of the other women on this forum can give you a clue, but trying to figure out how they think is a ticket to craziness. I don't say that as a put down of women. I'm going by my own experience.<br>I've been going through my own difficulties for a while now. Last week my wife was acting much more normal toward me than she has in a long time. This week sheis acting more business like. Oh, she talks to me. But not the way a husband wants a wife to talk to him. It is so maddeningly confusing as to how they can flip flop like this. You really don't know what to do except keep trying to act right. It is very hard to feel the relief of having your wife act like a wife, only to have her go back to room mate mode a few days later. It's like having your guts ripped out on a regular basis.<br>But you sound like you're on the right track. Hopefully your new actions have introduced something into the equation that your wife didn't bank on. I hope she will consider that divorce is a very sorry solution to the problem she thinks she has. Because it really is.

Bruce, I'm one of "those women" who does the flip-flop thing with my husband. BUT, the reason I do it is because he ticks me off so bad at times that I just close up to him because he will not help me resolve our problems. When I want to talk; he doesn't. He acts as if nothing happened - no talking, no explanations, nothing - and wants to move on. You can only do that so long. I want nothing more than for this marriage to work; but I realize he doesn't know what it takes (two people) to make that happen. I have offered many options to him, and have asked for his suggestions. He has none. Therefore, I just block him out when I'm ticked off. I feel bad a day or two after (thinking this is no way married people act) so I return to myself after I let my steam off. I know thats no way to be - but I cannot help it and don't know how to get him to open up to me. Unlike you, I don't think it tears him up inside - I don't think he has anything inside.

Cndy,<p>I have read your posts. In your case I understand why you act the way you do. You are trying to make your marriage work and your husband is not helping. Under the sort of pressures you describe you probably do well to act right as much as you do.<p>In my case I am trying to save things. I'm not saying my wife isn't doing anything. She really is a great lady and she does not treat me mean or hatefully. I already know it will take some time for things to heal with her. Like Chance said I was ignorant about some things until my marriage got into trouble and, by visiting this forum and reading, I realized just how dumb I was.<br>I went through the whole nine yards of showing neediness, blowing up in anger and such. Once I realized how counterproductive all that was I settled down to treat my wife the best I knew how without expectation of return affection.<br>Last week, to my great surprise, she began to act very well towards me. I got more kisses and hugs in one day than I'd been getting in a week. She was also talking to me in a meaningful way, just like a husband and wife should.<br>This week she isn't treating me bad, she's just spending a lot of time on the computer and giving me small talk like she did the week before last. I was coming home each night geared to not be treated with affection. Then I receieved what I hadn't expected. It made me feel so great, like I'd found a million dollars. Now, it's back to the way it was. I haven't done anything to set her off over the week end.<br>So that's what I mean by saying the behavior is so confusing. You simply never know what to expect or why. If she closed up because I started an argument or something I could understand it. But painstakingly avoid arguments of any kind now. it is just a very difficult thing to understand.

Thanks alot for the positive input. Lord knows I've had none of that for a long time. I cry everytime I think about the way things are. I don't want to lose my children. My wife is/was my life. Now I have nothing. How can I hold on any longer? The pain is so horrible. What can I do???????<br>chance

chance,<br> It has been almost 2 weeks since your posting. How are things going? I want to encourage you to head in the direction you started after you read Dr. Harley's works. It may help you to hear about my situation, to understand yours. (I'm almost certain, we're all in the same boat, anyway!) <br> Our relationship faded just as described in "Give and Take". I was the giver. It's been 25 years (I decided to stay together for the "kid's sake".) They are headed off, soon, and I'm ready to re-evaluate.<br> I was the one who always initiated improvements in the relationship. They only lasted for short periods. If my husband ever read this website, then said he understood what happened and what needed to be done (as you have,) I'd know that we could make it work. But . . . , I will tell you that I'd be very hesitant, as your wife seems to be. <br> The only time my husband ever made changes was when I was desparate, and the changes only lasted until I was apparently satisfied. Then the same old problems would crop up again. What would make me think this vicious cycle was going to end now?<br> Somehow you need to convince her that you really do understand, and will try to live by the new rules.<br> I don't believe my husband will ever understand and unless he initiates the effort to change the relationship, not just pacify it, I will definitely be ""threatening" to leave for the last time, probably in the next two to three years.<br> I hope your wife isn't that far gone, yet. Make this your number one priority! Has she read the information here? Would she participate in the "joint agreement policy?"<br> Good luck, I wish I were in your wife's boots, at least there would be a "chance"!<br>

Sorry about the double posting, I think I figured out what I did wrong!<p>[This message has been edited by momma monkey (edited 11-23-98).]

momma monkey<br>I'll keep this breif. I tend to make things long winded. <br>Saturday was our 9th anniversary. She was gone most of the day with our daughter, & I was home doing some "around the house" projects & homework - everyday stuff. Then got the kids off to their friends house for sleep-overs.<br>We had a nice dinner, then went home watched tv & crashed. Just like roommates or friends. Still no physical contact.<br>I keep telling her I need to know more, and she needs to at least fill out the love busters because she still hasn't read anything I've asked her too. She says she will, but later never arrives. Thanks for your concern, I'm just really depressedsince Saturday. I gave her a card in the morning & at dinner I gave her a nice diamond necklace which she said she couldn't keep because of everything going on & wouldn't feel right. I didn't expect anything from her on Saturday, and didn't get anything either.<br>She wants me to meet her for lunch almost daily, & we still sleep in the same bed. Why haven't we made any progress yet when I'm completely giving. I just don't know.... I need to get busy so I don't ball up in the chair pray & wonder the rest of the day.... <br>chance

chance:<p>Sounds way too familiar about the "roommate" living arrangements. I also can relate to Bill's being totally confused. The wife and I are seeing a counselor and while all of this was going on we had that physical relationship twice during a week and four weeks after she thinks she wants a divorce. Confused, scared, and fustrated are only scrathing the surface. I only wish I could keep the 100% positive attitude you have.

Chance;<p>I have a question. You have posted that you only have one semester left before you graduate. You also spoke of how you are going to get a part time job. Assuming that getting a Degree in college is very time consuming, then a full-time job plus a part- time job and college would pretty much use up all your time. Has your wife been supportive of your financial needs during this education? <p>Chance posted; "Saturday was our 9th anniversary. She was gone most of the day with our daughter, & I was home doing some "around the house" projects & homework -<br>everyday stuff." <p>What I am hearing here is a Husband/Father whose Wife has helped him reach for his dreams, only to be left out of them. Has she supported you while you did homework & projects around the house "everyday stuff?" Did your Wife work a full-time job? Did she take care of your children, help with homework, go to their school functions, cook, be a mother??<p>You are suprised that she doesn't desire you sexually? You done told her that once you get your Degree and are financially (?) able, your butt is out the door. Geez, I guess that she should appreciate your availability. After all, once you leave she won't have the presence of your male abilities any more. You have any good looking women attending classes with you? Hey even Jimmy Carter admitted to having "lust in his heart" brother. <p>Honest question Chance, who is going to get the kids after you take off after you dreams? <br>"When schools over, I'll pack my bags and go my way"

Chance;<p>I really would like to hear your answers to the questions I asked in the previous post?

Chance,<p>Hang in there and keep the consistency. My prayers are with you. I wish I could offer you more. <p>Steph

WOW!<br> It took me 2 days to get in here. The server has been busy & I just couldn't get in.<br>To answer your questions Glenn:<br>I am a fulltime "mr.mom" fulltime student, And about to start a part time job. <br>My wife & I have talked about me going to school and I wanted to know her feelings. She was behind me all the way. Very supportive. I never once asked for any help what so ever as far as my homework/housework & little projects I do on occasion. <br>She loves to stain & varnish & I love to build stuff. I was hoping that would pull us closer together.<br>She knows OUR sacrifice was for our family. Glenn, she knows she is the most important person in my life & everything I do, I do to impress her - not to mention I've actually impressed myself. She is also aware of several colleges sending me stuff to go to their school, I think because of the 3.8 gpa I'm carrying. She is successful in her work, & I felt I was gonna be left behind so I went back to school after about 15years. All my schooling is paid for by my past military participation by putting away alittle each month. None of my schooling came out of her/our pockets.<br>When she comes home from wok, all she has to do is prop her tired smelly feet on the coffee table and I serve her hand & foot. She just sits on the phone for hours talking to a high maintence friend who has a major crisis EVERYDAY not to mention our kids can't even get any attention from their mom. She'll scream at them & send them to their room - especially when I'm at school! most of my classes are worked around the children so no daycare is needed. This is the main drive behind me going to school so someone will be here for the kids.<br>Glenn, of course I want our children & as does she. I don't want a horrible battle or anything like that- I just want my WIFE back so we can continue raising the children and enjoy ourselves once again with a better living standard. I hate to think I'll have to start life all over again, I don't think I have the endurance to do so.<br>chance

this past weekend I spent in the hospital. I have pnemonia again. Bummer huh? I had It once before, when we first brought out in the open, our problems. The first time I was in the hospital was for a week, & it took 3 days before I knew where I was. Close call. Almost didn't make it.<br>This time I came home sunday afternoon and to my surprise, the house was "picked up" dishes were in the sink, but there were dishes in the dishwasher too and the washer & dryer was on. I was very surprised and thanked her & the kids for doing a great job cleaning up.<br>I pretty much slept sunday & monday. By Tuesday, I was stircrazy & finally had to get something to eat. (i've lost about 10 pounds and was feeling thin at 175) I went to the kitchin & both sides of the sink is full & found out my 6 & 8 yo had to fend for themselves for dinner. OMG! <br>I'm spread so thin now, I'm actually killing myself trying to work past this rough spot. I hope I make it to the end of the semester. (knock on wood) if anything like that happen (god forbid) at least I know & people around me knew I gave it my all<br>chance

Chance,<p>I'm trying to understand what's up with your wife. Why would she let the kids fend for themselves? Now THAT would piss me off royally. <br>Because of the problems we're having I try to keep any conflict to a minimum. I don't argue about anything I don't have to.<br>But I will not let my wife, for example, make toally unjustified remarks about me and let it go for the sake of "keeping the peace". I don't have to be nasty but I will not be misrepresented. <br>What reason could your wife have for not making sure the kids eat while you're sick? Maybe I just don't have all the facts. I hope that's the case.

Bruce<br>It's the friend of hers. She keeps the W on the phone wrapped up in her rotten misery for hours. The W kinda slipped away because W saw what I was trying to tell her. The friend finds a certian interest of the wifes, & rides it! She'll ride it till she sees W is getting bored & the the friend has another crisis until she sees another interest of the W. I see it on a daily basis. I know what the friend is up to. She wants us to divorce & move right in. This is the type of person that has done everything, been everywhere & don't have a damn thing to show for it, except 4 facial piercings and others not seen. I called her on it too & told her if she thinks she's moving in here IF I go, she's got a rude awakining coming, because the house will be sold & she'll still be in her miserable whole but with a mother & 2 kids to boot! She doesn't even like kids. I really can't stand her because she is telling the W to just get it over with. The W's friend of what 2+ years not even 3 is gonna all the sudden decide to tell her to get a divorce of 9 years & 2 kids nice house in a nice quiet neighborhood where things at one time was happy. I kinda think the W is feeling sucked in by her again, and I really hope so. She is a waste of human skin.<br>I built a redwood deck last summer, W told her friends she built it! hahaha Anything that I do around here I get no credit for. W says she did it. I am NEVER included in any subject matter, even if it was only me that did it.<br>W crys because of a family member is gonna die prolly before Xmas & somehow she twists everything around so it's all about her (W) her feelings & her reaction. I just said, W! WTF? this has NOTHING to do with you! It's ALL about G (the dieing sis-in-law) D (the hubby) & J (the 5yo son of both). What about them? I always hear everything coming out of your mouth as I this & I that, even if you sat on your [censored] & only watched me rearrainge the furnature (which is a truthful fact) everone is is under the impression you did it cuz that's what you say. The world doesn't & won't revolve around you so get off your high horse.<br>Well after that I figure I added a couple of bricks & prolly won't get laid for another 3 months, what the hell? I'm hanging on by the last knot of the rope & the grip is slippin. She may find herself getting served & clothes on the driveway. The her & mrs misery can be "happy" together.<p><br>Glenn<br> I forgot to answer a q from ya<br>yes there are a few pretty women in the classes I'm taking, & believe me, because I've been married 9 years doesn't mean I don't know suttle "hints & suggestions". There are 2 women I know for sure that go a long way out of their wayto say hello - oh here is the most recent one. I lost my keys & i think there is one hiding up underneath in a little box. Could you spare a moment? Well, I can't say no... it's expected of a man to help. I wearin 501's & she a dress. I can't see her climbing under the car like that looking for a hide-a-key. So there I go looking & all i see is plastic everything & undercoating. You can't put a key under that in a convienent place anywhere.<br>With no luck I was sorry to tell her I found nothing. Then she wanted to know if I could drive her to her mothers house who isn't home, but could get in & call someone to get her some keys. <br>At this point the red light was flashing, but was saved by another classmate who was going out that way at that time (and I think she is another one that drops suttle hints too). It's flattering, but it's not what I want<br>chance

Chance,<p>I'm sorry but your last post really made me laugh even though I know you're not in a funny situation.<br>I agree with you. As bad as you want your wife you simply can't let things like her sorry friend go by without comment. What kind of man would you be if you did?<br>About 4 years ago, before my marital problems came to a head, my wife had a female friend we both knew from a church we used to attend. The girl was a busy body, always in someone's business. She married a guy and got divorced after several years. She can talk for hours without saying anything of substance.<br>Well, this girl had a girlfriend whose husband killed her by stabbing her in the chest. Of course there is nothing that can justify that kind of thing.<br>But I found out later that this girl visited the slain woman's house so much that the husband was sick to death of her. She is not the reason he killed his wife, but she did contibute to it because the husband felt like this prying girl was crowding out time with his wife.<br>Not long after the death this girl showed up at our house bringing two other women with her. I had every intention of having sex with my wife that evening. True to form she and her gabby friends tried to sit in my living room all night. So I came out, planted myself in their midst, and let everyone know by the expression on my face that it was time for them to break camp. They got the hint and hit the road. My wife likes to talk but she's never been a gossip, so she was glad they left.<br>Although you say you're at the end of your rope it may be that your wife needs you to rescue her from this leech no matter what her surface reactions are. I hope that's the case.<br>And good job in turning down the opportunity with the other women. I have also been in similar situations. Like yourself, it's not what I want.

Bruce,<br>After reading that post, I got a pretty good laugh too! It doesn't seem I added any bricks. Things haven't gotten any worse (can it? hahaha) I came home from school early this evening because my instructor told me to "get out of here & get well" the other day he was *****in cuz I couldn't stay - I couldn't even stand up without leaning on something. (funny) Anyway, I came home, it's 8:45 & the kids were sliding down the hall ON CRACKER CRUMBS! (I cleaned the house before I left for school - sick or not) Went into the livingroom & you know who was on the you know what, talking to, guess who? Ms. Misery. hehe About that time she said "well, H is home so I better go." After they finally hungup, I came back into the room & sat down and said "how come ya got off the phone? Don't get off because of me. I don't want you to be angry with me cuz ya can't talk to your friends when I'm here. I don't care & won't be mad if you are on the phone from sun up to sun down. I don't wanna fight about something stupid like - being on the phone, ok?" She said that she didn't get off cuz I came home. Then she got off her butt & saw the disaster area and seemed surprised. I then told the W that I cleaned the house before I went to school. She knows that's alot for me to do having pnemonia. The guilt musta hit her..... it had too. then the kids were saying that mom was on the phone the whole time they got home talking to (i call her) Ms. Misery. They got home before 6pm.<br>I've been minding my p's & q's since the otherday & anything I might bring up is done diligently just to stay away from conflict. They are far & few between, because I try to remember - don't talk about it - just do it. She SEEMS to give ALITTLE after time has passed (even though it takes months to see it) In the end, I hope it was all worth it!<br>chance