I have been posting in the In Recovery section since March of this year. I am the betrayed and my W had 7 month EA with co-worker. I discovered in February. <P>Since I asked for No Contact in February, there have been the usual lies, slips etc..In fact, my W and OM are together this whole week at a national meeting.<P>I have been going to individual counseling since January of this year. However, I am no longer in recovery. I have two young children(5 and 2) and they have been my primary motivation during recovery. I love them more than life. I know in my heart that I do not want to stay married. I plan on asking for seperation when W returns next week. Those wonderfull feelings that I once had for my wife are gone and have been replaced by anger, mistrust and disgust. We have both told each other that we are not "in love" with eah other.<P>I know what has to be done for my own sake. I feel that even though I will leave my marriage, I will not be abandoning my children as a father. I often ask myself if my own happiness is more important than the welfare of my children. It makes me feel very selfish and guilty.<P>Is there a time after seperation or divorce, where you can forgive yourself, or that your children can ever forgive you?<P>If I get divorced and I move out of state(may happen w/job), what happens to my visitation? Where do you see your kids at? This whole mess is not the fault of my children, yet I feel that I am somehow punishing them. As you can tell, I've just recently come to accept the fact that my marriage is over, and I am struggling. Your thoughts and prayers are much appreciated.

I do not know your story, but what I read on this post is that your children are so very precious to you and you have considered their welfare.<P>My opinion is that a nuclear family is best for the kids (if no physical abuse), but since I am divorcing my H, and I have 4 children whose welfare I have considered.<P>Since you write that you have tried recovery etc, but stbx is with om and you cannot keep trying, why do you not get custody of your kids. As their father, are you not as capable a caregiver as your wife? Ideally children need both parents living together, but if this is not going to be the case why are you being the one to "leave" the family unit (and by this I mean the children with one or the other parent)?

Willbok99,<BR>Thank you for your response. Let me just say that W and OM are not "together" in the affair sense of the word. There are over 10,000 employees attending this event.<P>Anyway, I agree that the nuclear family is best. During my W's affair, when she was thinking of leaving me, should would always tell me that"You will always be your childrens father". At the time, I was sickened to hear her say those words, but they ring so true now. I am a GREAT father to my children and I ALWAYS will be.<P>I have talked to a divoce attorney several times since February. In my state(MI) it is assumed that the mother will be the primary custodian of the children, unless special circumstances like drug/child abuse, mental incapacity etc.. exist. None of those things apply. My understanding also is the reasonable visitation is seing the kids twice during the week with one overhight and then every other weekend. It makes me sick to thinl of it like that.<P>This week that my W has been gone has been such a relief from the anxiety that I feel when she is home. I've spent quality time alone with my boys, and it feels great. I would like to have custody, but it really doesn't go in my favor. Do you know what would happen if I were to leave the state?

All I can comment about is to say to you PLEASE DO NOT EVER LEAVE THE STATE AWAY FROM YOUR CHILDREN! I agree that getting your kids a night or two during the week and every other weekend sucks, but going months away from them will destroy your relationship with them. What about when they get older and they play soft ball or soccer? You gonna fly in for the games? It doesn't matter who had the affair, in their eyes you will have been the one that left them if you move out of state and you'll be the one that let them down. I know a lot of states offer 50/50 custody now. If you are absolutly positive that you can't get sole custody then fight for 50/50. Maybe your wife would just agree to 50/50? After all, that would give her more free time with the om. Anyhow, I feel that under no circumstances should you move any great distance from your children. I'm in my second marriage. My ex lives 2 miles from us and our kids are 7 1/2 and 12. He sees them a couple of times a year. That's it. Why? His girlfriend doesn't want him to have a family other then her and her two boys. The result? His kids are happy to see him when they do but they don't count on him and they don't trust him. They are bonding with their step dad. Do you want that? My husband's kids live with their mother yet we see them every week and have them for days at a time. The difference? My husband has a strong and loving bond with his children. He's called when they are sick, he participates in their sports, their school meetings etc.. Now tell me, is any job worth missing out on all of that? They grow up really, really fast so you'll have plenty of time to move out of state for a job. I know it wasn't your doing or decision to end your marriage but the fact is, even if she is no longer your wife your kids are still yours, love you and need you. Don't roll over and walk away. You'll regret it more then life itself if you do.

I have always believed in putting children first. <P>You say your wife's affair is an emotional one, that has been going on for 7 months. <P>From your post, it sounds like an unhappy woman, an unhappy man, and an unhappy marriage - but not a dead marriage. Also sounds like alot of ugly things have been said. Seems to me, you need more time.<P>The two of you better sit down and discuss the reality of a divorce. You better read more of the discussions on the the ramifications of custody battles, child support, and the horrors this will cause, before you throw in the towel.<P>Divorce is a horrible thing to put kids through. It will alter everything, and them. If you truly love them as you say, put their interests before yours, until you are absolutely positive the marriage is unsalvagable. Seems like you should both be in counseling together.<P>If you leave the state, you are leaving your kids. No matter how you try, you will become a relative bearing presents, not a father. How many memories do you have when you were two? My youngest was three when my husband and I separated. He really doesn't even remember when his father was living there. If your marriage is truly over, and you divorce, you better give very serious thought to a decision to relocate. When your children are older, they will view that as picking your job over them. Guaranteed.

Honey.West and Bonnie Sept.<P>Thank you for your eye opening responses. They make my heart sink in dispair. All of your points I truley take to heart. It makes me sad that my life has been reduced to these types of thoughts and internal questions. I realize that in the long run, not being there for my kids will be the saddest of all. Your comments have given me the strength to fight for another day in the hopes that things will get better. But how long is long enough? I do not want to take the same path as my wife chose, but to live in an unhappy marriage without emotion or passion for several more years may be beyond what I am capable of.<P>I realize there is now real way to answer that question. I want to be the strong father figure for my children, as my father was for me. My wife has told me since her affair ended that she new exactly what she was doing and knew what the fallout would be if I ever found out. She maintains that if this marriage is going to work, that decision rests soley on my shoulders. I resent the fact that the future of my families happiness is a decision that I have to make. Apparently my w carries no burden.<P>The situation is complex, and I will continue my struggle trying to find the right path. Thank you for your thoughts.

Thor,<P>It does rest on her too - but right now you are the only one thinking clearly.<P>Hang in there.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If I get divorced and I move out of state(may happen w/job), what happens to my visitation?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>and your children won't be with you because?<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Chris, It is my understanding that in my state, unless you can show some reason that the mother should not have custody(i.e..drug abuse/physical abuse etcc..)that the mother gets shared custody with visitation from the father. Infidelity has no bearing in these situations. One of the things that I have considered is that my W's sisters live very close by and my children are very close with their 3 kids. My W's parents also live close buy and arre wonderful people who very much love their grandchildren. My kids have lots of friends in our neighborhood, we have wonderful caring neighbors etc...AND we have a great nanny who has been with us for almost four years. I guess I was just thinking about trying to make an unstable situation more stable for my boys.<P>Believe me when I tell you I am sick at the thoughts of this happening. I cannot control my possible move out of state. I work for the government and we have a mobility clause in job description(not the military).<P>I suppose a custody fight could give me the kids, but who really benefits from that?<P>I don't know much about divorce and I don't know many divorced people, so try to forgive me if I seem a little in the dark about some of these issues.<P>

Perhaps not a custody battle, but I would NOT just say, "take the kids" without at leasy finding out the facts for sure.<P>Custody battles can get very, very nasty & costly, but you are the "stable" parent in this case. You as a father will do more for their stability and emotional intelligence than all the friends and other family members combined. Something to think about.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Chris,<P>Thanks for your thoughts!

Thor,<P>It does sound like you have a situation worth fighting for - hope your wife realizes exactly what she has, and what her selfishness will cost everyone. <P>As a positive note, I work for the government also, and one of the advantages of working for a behemoth organization is the flexibility it can provide.<P>I went through very trying times, and required "special treatment" at times - my chain of command was more than happy to accomodate me when I needed help. If it came right down to an order to leave, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they would accomodate you too, if you were to let them know of the precarious state of your family. You may be pleasantly surprised.<P>Again, good luck.

Honey.West,<P>Thank you for your support. All kids are worth fighting for. The agency I work for is fairly rigid when it comes to special circumstances, but I will try as best as I can.

Thor007: I am a living example of the children and I live in one state and dad moved 2000 miles away to take a new job and move in with his SO. It sucks! He has the potential of being a wonderful dad - but it is like bonnie or honeywest said - he is a visiting relative - once every 3-4 months for a day or two. My kids are very young so trying to stay communicating with them is very difficult. And at that young age - out of site out of mind. My oldest is 5 and he feels the pain but keeps it inside. I am keeping close watch over him so I can see any signs that he needs further help but what a tradgedy to him! Right now I am struggling with should the children and I move to where he lives to allow them a relationship with dad (as we were supposed to have moved there as a family originally). That is something I battle with each day. I can't help thinking why should I as this was his choice to move away from his children. I run the risk that although he says he would want nothing more I have seen no proof that things would be any different than they are right now. I keep praying everyday for GOD to give me guidance in which road to take. I love my kids so dearly I am so afraid of them being hurt any more than they already are. I don't mean to make him out to be a disgusting man - I still love him very much and feel he is lost in his MLC but just the same I have to face their saddened faces at night wanting to know when they get to see dad next. <P>So, the bottom line is do all that you can to stay within the same town as them as rough as it will be on you. They need you so badly - you don't want to end up being the disney dad! Perhaps you have a great job but I would look for a new job in a heart beat if it meant moving away from my kids or staying in their same town. Good Luck! Wish I could paint a rosier picture for you but there isn't one. <P>Missy2<BR>

Thor - I haven't talk to you in awhile, just happened to be browsing this category and saw your name. I have worked in the courts here and yes you are right, here in MI it is very difficult, but not impossible to get custody of your children. Some of the factors include who will have the more stable home, you or your wife. Which one of you will have a stronger support group(family, relatives, etc.). Has there ever been any physical or mental abuse in the home? <P>Before you even get to that point, has child custody even been discussed with your wife, maybe she will agree to joint custody, maybe she will give you full custody, I have noticed in my own dealings with the courts that more and more women are giving custody to the fathers, more and more women are out trying to "find themselves." Maybe the idea of losing her husband and children will wake her up.<P>If you are in lower MI, give ADAM a call, they are divorce attorneys that represent and defend men's rights.<P>Good Luck to you.

Missy2,<P>Thank you for your response. Since D-Daya and before, there have been few rosey pictures in my marriage. As the betrayed spouse, I am not moving to be with an OP, like many on these boards do. This situation is one that has been dictated by my agency. I may be "drafted" to our headquarters location.<P>I can't imagine having to be away from my kids like that, but this move thing just recently reared up, and the timing couldn't be worse.

FA, <P>Thank you for your response. I was hoping to hear from you and to ask if you had any thoughts on the guilt thing. I have read almost all of your posts, and feel that those thoughts must have crossed your mind before.<P>I do live in the lower, in a Detroit suburb. I am aware of ADAM, but I have a very good divorce attorney who has previously given me guidance after discovery.<P>There has been no abuse, just two unhappy people with kids. I suppose living with my W wife while she was still having her affiar could be considered mental abuse, but not in the traditional sense.<P>I had to come to this board for advice, as I feel I am failing at recovery. Our relationship has been based on trust and security first, emotion second. I have come to realize that since the trust and security are gone, my emotional attachment to my W is not strong enough to overcome. I know other will say that's bull and to follow the harley principals, but as you have said many times, we all have our limits. I know in my own mind what I feel. The hard part comes in actually acting on it.<P>BTW, i have a question for you. If I were to add the letter "T" to your screen name and mix up the letters, would that happen to be your employer?

Thor77,<P>It is true that in many states adultery is not considered in child custody. Be that as it may, your wife is not guilty of adultery. You may consider her EA as a betrayal of you, but because she has not had sex outside of marriage (which is the definition of adultery in my divorce papers) she has not committed adultery. She is guilty of sinning in her heart (having feelings for another), but not adultery. <P>You may not have loving feelings for your wife, and she may not have loving feelings for you right now, however, both of you made a commitment. Commitments have nothing to do with feelings. Would you abandon your children if they didn't make you feel good, or if they did something to disappoint or betray you? I hope not. That is the same level of commitment you need to show your wife. <P>You say that you don't want to remain in a passionless marriage. However, just about any couples I've talked to who have been married 20,30,60 yrs, mention that there were times that they almost couldn't STAND their spouses and there were times of incredible difficulty. What kept them together during those rough times was a commitment, and the understanding that finding someone new will not eliminate their problems. If you divorce, you will only be swapping out your current problems for a set of new ones. Add to that, the effects that divorce has on children and it is not an attractive option. You will be sending the message to your kids that divorce is the solution to their marriage problems.<P>

TheStudent,<P>Thank your for your response. I realize that this is a very complex issue. I'm just at a stage right now, where I struggle daily with all different emotions running through my head. My W, BTW is in your town, this week(so is OM)at a big convention. I think they occupy three hotels near the basketball arena.<P>Anyway, no, I wouldn't abandon my children. I have been committed to my wife through our marriage(9 years) and though her affair. Should I not expect the same in return? I do not subscribe to "When the going gets tough, go find someone else to make it easier for you!"<P>Betrayers know the fallout when the BS finds out. Yet, they do it anyway becuase of unmet needs etc.. The credit for committment should be given to the spouse(me) who also was unhappy and had needs that were not being met, YET, chose not do act on it except to attend marriage counseling with W.<P>I committed to that last November, and up until D-Day in February of this year, W had ongoing affair, while going to counseling to allegedly work on marriage. I see no committment there, except to find justfication for her affair. I asked her many times to write no contact letter, stop calling, stop e-mail, stop paging,stop seeing. My W couldn't committ to that. She had to do it her way, and as we speak, she sees him. Committment is not contigent on the convenience of it for the WS.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thor007:<BR><B>BTW, i have a question for you. If I were to add the letter "T" to your screen name and mix up the letters, would that happen to be your employer?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, that's not the agency that I work for, but good try <P><BR>I understand exactly how you feel, I feel that way sometimes myself, but I think you express it better than I do. I think I am often misunderstood on these boards because I DO realize that everybody is different and that everybody has their own personal limits, and I think most people here believe in maintaining a marriage <B>no matter what</B>, and I simply don't believe in that. I know that I have swallowed a great deal of pride in working on my marriage after my wife's affair, and it has been an ongoing battle within myself to continue, but I do know for a fact that I could not and would not deal with alot of the stuff that people on this board endure, and it's almost like a "cardinal sin" to state that or something similar to that on this site. While I don't go out and tell anybody to get a divorce or give up, I do realize that because we all have our limits on what we can take or endure, I try to support those that say they have reached their limit.<P>Thor, only you know what you can live with or without and ultimately you are the only one that can decide what is best for you. I would only say to you that before you make any decisions, look at everything from A to Z and ask yourself what you actually can or can not live with. A couple of weeks ago I was ready to move out of my house and move on with my life, not because my W was continuing and affair(which for me is past my limit), but because I didn't see the same level of committment that I had. When my wife saw that I had run out of gas and was giving up on our marriage, she began to work double time on "us", the past 2 weeks have been SO different, it's like night and day. I still have some of the same issues that you do, but because of my W's change in attitude, it's helping me a great deal. I say all of that to say that maybe if your wife sees that you are ready to call it quits, maybe that will help her see what she is about to lose and will motivate her to work towards the two of you, which in turn may help you become more comfortable with her, which of course builds stronger emotions and passion. I'm still not where I want to be, which hurts like hell, but I am starting to feel a little better about things. Hell, my wife told me last night that she loved me, without me having to say it first.<P>I know how you feel, trust me, I do, but maybe it's a little early to totally give up all together, but whatever you decide, support is here if you need it.<p>[This message has been edited by F A (edited July 21, 2000).]