Bystander,<P>I remain surprised given your outspoken position on joint custody, that you actually agree with my stbx wife's position on visitation. I hate the word "visitation". Somehow it makes me feel like my son is no longer mine, that I now have to "visit" him. Hence the reason why I am being a jerk about this midweek overnight issue. <P>Do you honestly believe that a court judge, who hears both sides of this issue, with both parents obviously wanting their child continuously in their lives, would side with the mother's point of view? Do you have any personal experience or know of anyone else that has actually gone to court to challenge a custody arrangement?<P>I'm very interested in your response given you are pro 50/50.<P>The child support in either scenario in my case is minimal (about $250.00/mo.) since we both make relatively the same amount of money. However, if stbx does succeed in getting the custody arrangement that she wants, then I will withdraw my contribution towards 1/2 the payment of his private schooling. I am taking the position that it's either child support awarded within the guidelines of the court, or 1/2 the cost of private school. But I refuse to pay both.

I remember reading your very first posts on this subject and I also responded to you. Your being very bullheaded about this issue and being perfectly honest, I really and truly do not believe that your acting this way entirely because of the reasons you have stated. Part of this boils down to you wanting a pissing match with your wife. Well, I have been in the court system a lot, in fact I was involved in a very deep custody battle that went on for three years. Bystander is 100% correct. You drag this into the court system and you'll come out with WAY less then what your stbx is agreeing too now. There is a lot of women out there that will take advantage of the court system leaning towards the mothers and you seem to be lucky enough to NOT be dealing with that type of woman. My story is extremely long and I'm not going to go into it now (Bystander does know it), but you are being offered the best you'll ever get in your situation. I deal with a crazy ex that has hurt his children in the past because of his vandictive and "pissing" behavior and I have also seen first hand what a mother can do given the control from the court systems. If you can come to an agreement together on your own you'll be much better off. BTW, I am also believe that 50/50 can work but the situation has to be just right. Your asking too many sacrifices from your child to make you feel better. Like I've told you before, it's not about you and it's not about your stbx. It's about that little boy that needs both parents in his life without disrupting his as much as possible. Give it up before your on this board a few months from now whinning because your ex has had it with the pissing match and has taken you to the cleaners, leaving you every other weekend with your son! PLEASE Don't fight it in court cuz your son needs his daddy more then every other weekend.

Bonnie,<BR><BR>Hey lady, quit holdin' back and tell us how ya REALLY feel! <BR><BR>Starting Over,<BR><BR>Look, I advocate a presumption of 50/50 if the conditions are right. You don't meet those conditions right now in my view. I'm going to tell you like it is once more: If you push this in court, you will come away with a lot less than your wife is already offering. Your wife is being so equitable about this she should get a prize IMO. I honestly think that she would agree to 50/50 later, if your schedule really permitted it. Which is why I think you should cede the early wakeups immediately and ask that a presumption of 50/50 be written into your divorce. Also, ask for the right of first refusal over any other day care arrangement - I know she'll agree to this, its impossible to argue that a child is better in day care than with a loving father. Lastly, write into your divorce agreement absolute veto power over any moving out of the county. To reiterate, the family courts are biased against men. Is it fair? No. Is it the reality of the situation? Yes.<BR><BR>I understand your visceral repulsion at the term "visitation." Its as good as calling you a loser in this, isn't? But try and stop thinking of it as a game. Reform in the family court system is coming, S.O. But its not here yet. You are blessed with a generous wife, who is going the extra mile (given you're the one who had the affair) to be fair. If you want 50/50 so badly, your only real option is to change jobs so you can avoid the early wakeups. If you won't do that, and you insist on pushing this, you'll pay dearly in my view.<BR>Bystander

BonnieSept, Bystander,<P>Guess your opinions haven't budged much. I have been at this same company for 19 years and would risk alot to change jobs. I just recently transferred jobs from a job beginning even earlier in the day. Just happens in my line of work (utilities) that all shifts begin at 7:00 am or earlier. So a change in jobs is not feasible.<P>I will consider your opinions on this custody thing. Now, what about the paying for 1/2 of private schooling? Son is currently in private school now and it provides after school care and a very nice after school sports program. But I still hold the position that if I have to pay support, then stbx, if she wants him to stay at the private school will have to foot the bill. She believes that to take him out of his familiar school and put him in public school is a horrible thing to do. What do you think? Should I also now agree to pay 1/2 of his schooling in addition to court ordered support???

S.O.,<BR><BR>19 years in the same job? You really should get out more! <BR><BR>To be honest, you are using the threat of witholding funds for your son's private school as a weapon. Your wife cares deeply about education, and you are using her fear of the public school system to gain leverage. Would you really withold resources to the extent that your child would be forced to attend public schools? (Note to lurkers: I'm not slamming public schools, I attended them myself. But this is an issue of importance to this couple). S.O., the tack I would take is this:<BR><BR>Tell your wife that you really want 50/50 custody because you truly want to be a good father. Tell her that you want to do what's best for your son. However, you agree with her on the scheduling problem. If she will concede to codifying a 50/50 presumption of custody, assuming that scheduling permits it, then you will cede the early wakeups. Also, add in the stuff about right of first refusal in day care arrangements and vetoing any moves out of the county. Then tell her if she agrees to this, you will pay for 1/2 of the private schooling. If you personally think that the CS amount is inappropriate, ask her to document the expenses in raising your child. If the mandated CS amount is higher (it usually is too high), then negotiate it down some.<BR><BR>My take on this is that your wife is being very generous here and you have no idea how badly men are treated in family courts. I hope you don't have to find out, I really hope you come to an out of court agreement, S.O. I've seen men - good fathers - absolutely flattened.<BR>Bystander

Ya know what? If you go to court it really won't matter what we think or what you think. A judge can give and give and give to her if he feels the child will benefit. So, Mr. or Mrs. Judge is sitting there and he has to decide if the child will be better off staying in a private school that he's use to and has the benefits that you listed, or toss him into the public school system. Then he'll check into your accounts and if you have any money left after paying support he'll take until the school is paid at 100% by YOU! <P>Believe me, I'm NOT picking on you. I really am trying to help you before you make the same stupid mistakes my ex did. Why wouldn't you pay half of your child's schooling if your not starving trying to do it? Your wife should be responsible for the other half. <P>A couple of weeks ago I was at my dad's farm and his neighbor was butchering chickens. I kinda peeked in at the old guy doing the "job". He put his knee on the chicken's throat and ripped his head off! Talk about messy and gross!!!!! Well my friend, you fight your wife in custody court and the judge will be the farmer...you the chicken. And one more thing, a custody battle destroys any chance that two parents have of ever co-parenting together. Again, think of your son, not who has custody more, who pays who a bit more etc.. IF you work with her I would bet that as your son gets older he'll be able to sleep over more during the week and it will be even more closer to a 50/50. Or heck , maybe a 60/40 and YOU'LL have him more. So, since I've been there I'm begging you. Don't make it bitter.

Bonnie,<BR><BR>Hey, <B>I</B> was going to unload the judge's discretion thing on S.O. next! No fair stealing my thunder!<BR><BR>S.O., so now you've heard the score. Did you know that the child support guidelines in some states don't even provide a self-support reserve for non-custodial parents? Are you aware that some states will take so much money that the NCP cannot even afford to live? And your taunting your wife with threats of witholding resources? Judicial discretion in family courts borders on absolute. Bonnie's exactly right - a judge can just order you to pay the whole cost of the private school yourself, PLUS the full CS amount, plus full day care, plus full health insurance, plus all co-pays - and THEN add on alimony.<BR><BR>And on a psychological level - by turning this into an ugly match now, you really are going to destroy any chance of coparenting. The kids lose, they always do.<BR><BR>Bystander

Just my two cents here.<P>Starting over, you are here in California, according to your profile. In California, child support only covers the basics (food, clothing, etc.). Private school tuition is an extra. So be very careful here. You may end up paying the guideline CS amount, plus at least half, and maybe more of the tuition, like the others said. And despite what you think, once the judge makes his decision, you have to pay.<P>My advice to you would be to cut your losses now. Take the advice of others on the board.

Just got back from a weekend camping trip with my son. I can still see from all the responses that you all think a court will award my stbx with anything she wants. I know she is willing to split the cost of private school tuition as this was an agreement we both wanted when our marriage was working. However now, knowing that I will have to pay guideline CS, I think that if she wants to use that towards private schooling that would be my contribution - it's up to her how she chooses to spend the support money. Just my thought (and yes, I'm still stuck here and planning on seeing where the chips will fall...)

Starting Over, <P>It isn't anything that she wants, all expenses fall into categories - and private school doesn't count as one of the necessities of life. It will not be counted as part of support. It will be viewed as a separate expense over the basic support, just like day care, health insurance, extra lessons, braces, etc. <P>Now, maybe if this were going to be a new expense, it would be different - but he is already in private school. It is an expense you are already paying. <P>I am pulling my kids out of public school this year and putting both into private. It was an informed well-thought out choice for me - I went to public schools and did great, but the county I'm in still has open classrooms, and has started yet another new math program, which I see, as doomed as a horrible failure. I'm not willing to let my kids be part of the experiment. I didn't ask my ex for any portion of the money because it is not an expense we had together - but I would have expected his financial help, if they had already been in private school. And it isn't that I am rolling in money - my father is footing half the bill, and I'll stay with my old reliable 12 year old Honda a couple more years...but it is my choice they go there - for your son, it has been the choice of both of you.<P>I think you are missing the forest for the trees here, and are going to be very disappointed if you go to court. <BR>

<BR>h.w. opines:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I think you are missing the forest for the trees here, and are going to be very disappointed if you go to court.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Starting Over,<P>h.w. is one of my faves in this forum when it comes to the custody debate - hi, h.w. <P>Listen to her. Listen to BonnieSept. Listen to gp2. And listen to me. You are not going to prevail in court. You just don't seem to understand how anti-male the family court system is. You keep thinking that there is justice - there isn't. The "best interests of the child" is a rubber ruler than has been used to justify all kinds of atrocities (e.g., making men who are the victims of a mispaternity pay CS for a child that isn't theirs, and with whom they have little or even no visitation). With a rubber ruler like that in hand, you are basically at the mercy of some judge - and as a rule, these judges do not like men at all. <P>What leaves me really slackjawed is that I still think that your wife would agree to a 50/50 presumption in the divorce settlement if you'd quit trying to turn this into a grudge match over the private school tuition. You have no idea what kind of a deal your wife is offering, and IMO she is really going the extra mile to make sure you are a huge part of your son's life. But my guess is that you are also very rapidly using up your W's goodwill towards you, and sooner or later she's going to decide to use the legal system as a weapon. And THEN you'll know exactly how anti-male the family court system really is. You are acting incredibly foolishly here. I can't put it any more bluntly than that. You will NOT prevail in court, and you will get a LOT LESS than is already on the table. Stop this fixation about the school tuition, stop trying to use it as a stick. You need to be on good terms with your W if you're going to coparent. The CS isn't that much anyway, and you've already consented to paying private school tuition during the marriage. I am hard pressed to believe a judge wouldn't order you to keep paying, and that's in addition to the guideline CS. I beseech you to stop this and ask your wife for a presumption of 50/50 in the divorce decree. That language is far, far more valuable than a few bucks out of your pocket for private school tuition.<P>Bystander<BR>

Thanks for the replies. I'm sorry that I will continue to seem irrational but, I saw my attorney today and he suggested that we move forward and serve her with a "set of interrogatories" for her to answer. Its used as a form of discovery to help prepare for trial. <P>I'm sorry that no one can appreciate nor understand to what lengths I will go to in order to have my son a couple of overnights during the mid-week. I do not agree with stbx wife's position of thinking it's unfair to our son to wake him up early on those mornings I would be required to take him to school. He's a great kid. I don't forsee him having a huge adjustment problem. <P>Bystander - my stbx wife doesn't care if the papers are worded 50/50 or joint custody or whatever. She is not at all in agreement to the midweek overnights. This, and the added 50% cost that she is asking me to pay for tuition are the only two issues we are in disagreement on. If I have to go before a judge to make my point that I want to be a father to my son including the mid week overnights, then I'll take my chances. From what I read of your responses, it won't matter what I want. Is this a correct assumption?<P>Seems like my stbx (even with her proposal that keeps both of us in his life consistently) will come out on top. I don't mean to make this sound like a game. But that's what it feels like. <P>

Starting Over: I have read the posts this past week regarding your "dilema" and all I can say is I feel so sorry for your son because he is the one who is going to lose the biggest in your petty fight. I hope you realize by pushing all the extra buttons you are going to tick your wife off so badly that the two of you are going to spend the coming years in and out of court causing the tension to rise between the two of you to the point where your son is going to get lost in the shuffle, will probably end up feeling guilty for admitting his love for the two of you and who is going to benefit out of all of this? YOUR LAWYER WHO IS GOING TO LAUGH ALL THE WAY TO THE BANK! So in the end - will it be worth it all? Let us know! <P>I'm sorry for sounding so harsh but I,too, agree with all the others here - this midweek overnight issue has turned into a must win for your ego IMO. You don't have your son's best interest at heart here because if you did you would have sympathy for his ping pong life he has to look forward to. <P>I'm sure I have ticked you off and I'm sorry. Good Night

Missy2,<P>You did not piss me off or sway my decision either. Everyone here is entitled to their own opinion. I also note that most that have responded are women, so that said, I can interpret that women in general will stick together and side with one another on certain issues, this being one of them. I don't recall if any men responded to this or if many men at all want this as much as I do.<P>Thanks again for your responses.

Starting Over,<P>Oh you typical MAN you... if women stuck together, there wouldn't be any OWs!!!!!<P>On the contrary, you are getting "parent's" view on specific issue of early wakeup at parent's convenience not childs - man or women, and a reality check on what the law says - whether or not the people here agree with the law.<P>You are being hardheaded here, not logical - and it sounds like your attorney is taking advantage of that. Hmmmm. woman's intuition? <P>

<BR>S.O. inquires:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If I have to go before a judge to make my point that I want to be a father to my son including the mid week overnights, then I'll take my chances. From what I read of your responses, it won't matter what I want. Is this a correct assumption?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If the judge is a bigot against men, do you really think he is going to care what you want? <P>Essentially, you seem to believe that going to court has the upside of you getting what you want with the downside of you getting what your wife is already offering. Why not at least entertain the possibility of a bigger downside, eh? How about a judge who orders the minimum visitation possible (you had the affair here, and it wouldn't be in the "best interests of the child" to be around such a bad influence). How about a judge who decides that men who get into affairs should pay their wives lifetime alimony - sure, she's not asking for it, but it can be ordered anyhow. How about a judge who decides that cheating men should pay all daycare expenses? How about a judge who takes a disliking to you because s/he can tell you're just trying to jerk your wife around with a threat of witholding resources that you've previously consented to spend?<P>Again, I'm a huge advocate for a presumption of 50/50. But I'm also a realist. As of right now, judges have nearly absolute discretion, and as statement, they are biased against men. You are risking a far larger downside than you realize, in my view.<P>Oh, and I'm a 36 year old male.<P>Bystander<BR>

S.O<BR>I'm a male, but come from a different prospective in that I am the residential parent.<P>I agree with the others, that your are being unreasonable in regards to getting your son up early. Put yourself in your son's shoes. At his age would you like getting up extra early? It may be okay for a while, but what about when he starts to resent it and then doesn't want to come over at all.<P>Work with your stbx, she sounds reasonable, well at least she is talking to you , and work it that he can stay overnites on the nights prior to him not having school.<P>I don't think it is possible to have a 50-50 split on time. I'm struggling with that myself as my x only sees kids a little over the minimum. I am trying to get her to be more responsible and take the kids more but I'm afraid it will backfire and she will leave them with om or by themselves for extended periods.<P>Give you son a chance to grow before you make additional demands on him. Most small children are more dependent on their mothers. As they get older they start to identify with their father.<P>My s, age 9, is still attached to his mother a good bit and will put up with om being around. My d, age 13, wants no part of the om being around and creates ways not to be there when he is.<P>Give yourself and the situation some time.<BR>I think you should keep your child's best interest in mind first. I do understand where you want the child around you as much as possible, but right now that may not be possible.<P>Also, you said, that you have worked for the utility company for 19 yrs. Is there no way that you can't come in late 1 day a week and make up the time later? I would think with that kind of experience and loyalty there would be some give and take with your employer.<P>By the way Bonnie I just completed 15 yrs with 1 company although we were bought out by another a year and a half ago. So I don't get around much either I guess ! LOL<P>

<BR>Bob,<P>50/50 can work even with younger children, but the scheduling is more difficult. Many times its not practiceable. In fact, part of the reason I think S.O. should write a presumption of 50/50 into the divorce decree is so that when the children get older he can have some way to assert more time with the children and have a contractual basis for doing so. It would also help blunt any desire for his W to turn the child into a CS cash cow. I really don't think S.O. realizes how good of an offer his W has made.<P>Bystander

Bystander,<P>Sorry, didn't know we were of the same gender. The State of California doesn't care whether you cheated on your partner, or if you are a prostitute or anything else when determining CS or custodial time. The parents would have to be criminals who would put the child's saftey at risk in order to relinquish any custodial rights. This situation hardly applies to either myself or my stbx.<P>You and RWD are both saying stbx wife's custodial arrangement seems great and I should be happy. I will get son overnight on those nights that are not followed by school - which right now is only Friday nights. Every other day is a "school day" or a "day camp" day that he would be taken to school early for (if I had him on those overnights)<P>And no, even though I have been at the utility company for 19 years, this position is relatively new for me and thus puts me back at the bottom of the todem pole. So I couldn't ask for varied hours. Additonally, my job requires extensive field work - most of which must be completed prior to any customers being at their businesses.<P>Sounds to be like everyone is saying i'm S.O.L.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I don't recall if any men responded to this or if many men at all want this as much as I do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well last time I checked (just a few minutes ago), I was a male.<P>I, like RWD, am a custodial dad. My stbx could have easily got custody, and said she wanted it, but actions speak louder than words. Not all judges are on planet mommy. The judge in our case could clearly see who had the best interests of the children at heart, and made his decision accordingly.<P>Do you realize how you sound to many of the rest of us? Your egotism drips off of every word. It seems to me that you are in the typical WS mind-set, "What is good for me is good for everyone else." Well, sorry, but someday maybe you will see the havoc you are creating.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The State of California doesn't care ...if you are a prostitute or anything else when determining CS or custodial time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That is one of the few things that the state does care about. I have the card, but haven't played it because it is not in the best interest of my children to do so.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Sounds to be like everyone is saying i'm S.O.L.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You never know. The judge could get up on the other side of the bed, or could have gotten some the night before and is in a good mood, or any one of a number of factors that go into their decision. Pursue it if you want. Stranger things have happened. But it does not look good for you. The probabilities are with your wife (spoken in the true researcher fashion).<P>Good Luck<BR>