Yesterday my children spent the evening with their dad as they do every Tuesday. <P>Not long after they got home, my daughter (9) asked when she could choose who she lived with. I knew where this was coming from but I asked her. Naturally, she said her dad had been talking about it. I just said "Well, if you went to live with him, you'd discover that he had rules, too." I never answered her question.<P>My son (7) has made comments like this before. <P>I am so angry. X earns a lot more than me. I have been forced to live a life other than the one promised to me. (Stay home mom as long as I wished - maybe work part time.) And we could have afforded it. Well, my financial position changed radically when stupid, idiot x had his MLC.<P>He's the bodily orifice or a gigantic equine who walked out on his family. Yeah, he sends money on time and sees his children. But he does this and says he wants to be a good daddy.<P>I could say a lot more. You get the drift though. How do I cope with this. Ya'll my self esteem is not the greatest. I couldn't afford to fight him.<P>How do I tell them they would learn to hate him like I do. Maybe not that. <P>But how do I, personally, learn to cope with his cutting me down to them? How do I not panic? I could scream. I could cry.<P><P>------------------<BR>JMJ

Cinderella,<P>Mine are 6 and 8, and when they say things like they want to go live with dad, I am: incredibly hurt and furious with him with saying things he doesn't mean. My ex does the same type of thing - he is very competitive, always has been, but boy, I never thought he would be competing with me over things like this, and using the children. He revels in their sadness over that, like they love him more. Such an immature dope at times.<P>I just try to talk to them about ways they can spend more time with their daddy, I know that is what they want - they miss him. But that doesn't make it hurt any less. And I know when they are older, they will understand who was with them day in and day out, who stayed up all night with them when they were sick. They may run to daddy for fun stuff, but they come to me for comfort and stability. <P>It is one of those thankless jobs that I wouldn't trade for the world, like all of us here.<P>I do know my boys will need a man around more when they are teenagers, and maybe then, (if their father has grown up first) we may actually have a serious discussion about them living there if they want to. <P>But I do know how much it hurts. Doesn't make it any easier that it seems to be universal, that every parent with physical custody hears the same words from their children. <P>Hang in there. <P>

Children can also get comfort and support from there fathers. Not all men are disneyland dads. It is sad that these men cannot see what they are doing to their children.<P>Children should not be asked to choose between parents! Parents should just be there!

Good one Omaha,<P>Children should not be made to choose. Both parents need to realize that this divorce is about us, not the children. And we should shield them from all the grownup stuff that we can.<P>My girls do not want to be with their father.....but it is being shoved down their throats by a mean and selfish man.<P>He plays Disneyworld dad only when a court date is coming........then they are pushed to the curb.<P>Nancy

Hi Nancy,<P>I wish that were the case, but it sure seems like in most of our cases (but not all) that there is one responsible parent, and one who is not. Just makes it harder for the responsible one when the irresponsible one uses the children's innocence.<P>And I know my kids don't really want to live with daddy instead of mommy, they want us back together. Sometimes I really do wish their father lived down the street, and that the boys could just pop over whenever they felt like it. But then, if he thought that much about the kids and the family, we wouldn't be divorced.<P>No panacea out there.

Whoa, people, don't take personally that kids want to try other things, that kids want to live with the other parent.<P>Both parents could be great parents individually, but crummy together. But don't play possessive with the kids. They need the male influence also, as well as learning different points of view, even if they disagree with your point of view.<P>since one is not there every day, they will go looking for it. Why are vacations so fun to look forward to? because we don't have it very often. If time with dad is fun, and they don't have it often, they will want it more. What, is dad going make his limited time ugly? I don't think so.<P>And it is natural to want to live with the other parent at times anyway. And maybe, just maybe, the other parent will teach them some "good" things that the CS can't.<P>But they are not possessions, they are not trophies of divorce, they are kids who want both parents, and need time with both parents.<P>Regardless of the differences between the two parents, each parent has a set of values to instill into their kids, and want the time to do that. to the extent one denies that opportunity, the kids grow up without exposure to different attitudes, different answers or solutions to similar problems.<P>I would love to have my kids half time, 2 weeks on two weeks off, as they get older, so that the continuity of my time pays off, so the kids get used to different jobs.<P>When I was working on oil tankers, I would go from one ship to the next, and even if they were the same mechanical design, the attitudes of how your job would be conducted was radically different based upon the personalities of the crew and management team. And after awhile, one got used to adapting to different styles very easily, asking how things are done here, versus where you last came from. If you were stick on the same ship for a long time, and you then transfered, you had a hard time fitting in. THAT IS A VERY BENEFICIAL LIFE SKILL TO LEARN, which in the long run, is great. DONT deny learning other ways. Too many people think that there way is the only way.<P>My stupid STBX is OC, and what I see is a parent who puts more time emphasis on her OCD activities than with kids. Where are the kids going to want to go? possibly with me, the dad! is that good, yes, to see how another part of the world lives, and I am much tougher on the kids than my WABI (Will Always Be an Idiot) X, but they have to see it for themselves, and it is better to LEARN BY DOING, than to wonder what it would be like, and learn to always think the grass is greener over there.<P>WS also have to learn that sometimes the grass is not always greener. and that builds great growth, respect and lots of times a better relationship.<P>What is our job here as a parent? to bring up the most well rounded, well experienced kids as possible, which requires visiting other places, other life styles, other values. You can certainly educate your children on the differences between the spouses, but each of us are not the ultimate authority on how our children can only look at the world.<P>thl<p>[This message has been edited by WhenIfindthetime (edited August 30, 2000).]

<p>[This message has been edited by WhenIfindthetime (edited August 30, 2000).]

<p>[This message has been edited by WhenIfindthetime (edited August 31, 2000).]

thl,<P>I think I may have been giving the wrong impression here, and I think the same goes for Cinderella - but I won't assume. I just interpreted her frustration to be the same as mine.<P>I am not in competition with their dad, I get really annoyed with their father using the childrens sadness over the divorce, to hurt me. He does not want the kids to live with him, for close to 2 years, hardly ever saw them.<P>I absolutely know they need both of us, and am hoping he continues to improve on the dad front. That is why I would like if we lived real close, so they could spend time at each of our homes, casually just pop in over there - not these planned things. Maybe do some homework over there, but come home for bed. To be able to see mom or dad, whenever they want. What I would love, is daily participation by both of us in their lives. But I don't have that.<P>I have an x who for saw the boys a couple hours a month at my house for 2 years. Then, he started taking them for Saturday afternoon, regularly. After I pushed the issue, by buying sleeping bags for them, so there was no excuse for them to NOT spend the night with him, he started taking them one night a week. That has been going on for 6 months or so. He has had them a couple times for 2 nights in a row.<P>This weekend, is the first time in three years, he will have them for 3 nights...I really hope this trend continues, that he is around them, but I don't know if it will. But does he do any of the scouts, or practices, or any of the routine chores? No. Does he even call them during the week? No.He is too busy. I honestly fear when another girl comes into his life, he won't "need" the kids anymore. But I hope I am wrong.<P>It really does annoy me, that he makes references to their living there, or getting back together, because he doesn't mean it - he is using the kids to make me the bad guy. I would never say, "your dad doesn't want you there," I would never hurt my children, and I know that is not the real issue - I know the real issue for them is missing their dad. And he is making it worse, by the things he says, rather than making it better by being around them more. But even knowing, and understanding everything, it still hurts to hear them say they want to live elsewhere. I don't take it personally, but darn! human nature for it to hurt. <P>I look back, and wonder how he could have changed so much - he really was a good father, did lots of things with them, etc. But I realize now, when we were together, I did all the work, he did all the playing. Nothing has changed - I made it easy for him to be a good father. When we went out, I was the one watching the kids. He would always buy them toys and play with them. He does love his boys, I have never doubted that - but he does not want the work, and it is hard work - to raise them.<P>My x, instead of being one of the strongest men I have ever met (one of the things that drew me to him) has turned out to be one of the weakest.<P>My best hope for the future, is that he somehow marries a nice woman who understands how much the boys need their father, and does the "work" for him while he plays with them. That is a role he is comfortable with<P> <p>[This message has been edited by honey.west (edited August 31, 2000).]

Sometimes I have so much trouble not telling them how I feel about their dad. It truly breaks my heart, even after all this time, that, though I do not - repeat - do not- want him back as he is, my children have had to go through this.<P>So far going to their dad's is like going to CampDaddy. There never there for long enough to know what his rules would be like. And if he does marry that woman (boy is he not trading up) this fall, there will now be an interloper wherever it is they'll live. <P>This scares me in another way. I really feel that though I am flawed, aren't all humans, I am in better mental and emotional health than WABI x (Tom - Thanks, that's good but can you make it even more insulting, please). I think that, if he were well, he could do a pretty good job with them but ....This man is so no-good in my opinion that not only would he want the children but he would probably expect me to pay child support. He's an electrical engineer with a public utility. I haven't had a real job in 9 1/2 years. I had worked in personnel in state government. Which one of us can afford to pay child support? The scumsucker started this, he needs to pay like blood from a turnip. But that's my anger with him talking.<P>Yes, the children need him. But I need them. There have been times when I would have completely collapsed had it not been for them. I sort of feel like they are my main reason for living. And I feel threatened.<P><p>[This message has been edited by cinderella (edited August 31, 2000).]

Cinderella,<P>Sorry i was so unsupportive. I tend to get frustrated when people think that the only way the world works is their way. I misread your frustration, and I'm sorry for that. Please accept my apologizes. This is my third rewrite of my response.<P>I lived with verbal abuse, but after awhile, I became immune, set up a filter, a wall that didn't let it get through. <P>Yes, I get frustrated also with my WACKO STBX who is mentally ill, and does her best to bring the kids along to participate in her OCD. However I am trying a different tact, the approach is to try to get the kids to see for themselves how I view life, so that they can make up their own mind, which they will anyways, even if we provide them just our views.<P>I take the teaching questioning approach, as to why do you think that? why would it be better? and then when they come to my house, and they act like their WACKO mom, I ask them how does it make the other person feel? how would you like it if it happened to you?<P>Then I had an hour long learning session, with my daughter, about how you must take the other person's feelings into account when talking. You just can't abuse them, and then expect them to love you afterwards. It is easier in that I don't "need" them to consider myself OK, but I look at my job as a parent to educate them on personal interaction, and how they need to think about what they do or say.<BR><B> even if they are imitating their mother </B> i am tough on them about using their words, how they use their words, and to look at both sides of the discussion, <P>So far, my d has started to get the message, as she can't abuse/threaten/use guilt on me to get what she wants.<P>but it is tough, and you need support to hang tough, to help them see what each viewpoint is. So, again, you needed support, I didn't give it, and I am sorry. I misunderstood, and I took my point of view, that a father can offer a different point of view, which may be valid. But I don't put up with crap from kids so that they learn that bad behavior learned from WACKO STBX is not going to get them very far in life.<P>they are learning about conditional love every time the come to my apartment. Not that I don't love them, just I don't put up with crap, and then they still get me as party dad. Make sure you teach them about how not to give up, how to treat other people with respect, and the good stuff you have to offer them.<P>Again, I'm sorry for the unsupportive point of view, and hopefully, you can see some good that their father has shown them (although I realize you are in an unfortunate situation, as sometimes life hands us crap, try not to let it get you down. Your stronger than that.)<P>thl<P>

I had an incident tonight and was going to do a new post, but decided to chime in here since it's basically the same topic. Ken doesn't talk to me anymore (as tho I'm the one who should be PUNISHED). I e-mailed him and made the suggestion that since it's a holiday weekend, maybe he could take the boys and do something cool like camping. Only response was he'd be here tonight and can't take them this weekend. That's it, the end. I asked him if he could take them shopping for school stuff, he agreed.<P>Tonight, he came and only oldest son was getting into the jeep. I asked why and he said the other doesn't want to go. I went in the house and asked Ben why - it's not that Ben didn't want to go, he didn't want to go with Dad. Heartbreaking. So I told him I had to go shopping too so he should probably go with dad since only God knows when he'll be back again (not what I said, but...) AND I NEED him to get the stuff for school. Really, I didn't yell, but I tried to encourage him to want to go. Well, Ben still didn't and was upset. Ken was honked off that now he had to take them both and deal with one who was crabby. I got pi**ed off and said life's tough - he threatened me that it's gonna get tougher. I've been in tears since they left. I really hate him. I mean really, I have to do stuff EVERY DAY that the boys don't want to go do with me, but as a parent I do what has to be done - not what the boys dictate they want or don't want to do. I'm so tired of him getting away with murder and leaving all the burden on me. It's like you all said - he gets all the playtime and when asked to take a little responsibility, I get HE** for it. I can't help but wish nasty accidents on him. How can people be so insensitive to the burden they've dumped on someone else and cry so loudly when asked to do just a little extra to help! Kids aren't always happy campers, but he's their Dad and darn well better get used to it. The problem is he never dealt with it before (he was never around - out screwing around), so why would I expect him to change now. It doesn't matter how much I try to keep him involved with them, he resists as much as possible and I just don't see him being around for long, by his choice. I can just imagine the bad-mouthing he's doing right now to them about me.<P>I'm sorry - I don't know if this is long until I post it. I just drove to a park by a river to sit for a while and cry. I hate my life. I can't believe I was ever married to this heartless piece of crud. Sorry Cinderella for venting on your post, we all kinda have the same rotten circumstances, but I guess mine could be worse. It's just that I keep remembering how much I used to love him and I would have done anything for him, and now look where we are.<P>------------------<BR><BR>Kathy