How do you keep trying to save your marriage, when, deep down, you don't know if it's possible to be happy together?<br>If you read my last post,(why am I holding on?) you know that my H has had an alcohol problem, (which is supposedly over) and is a HABITUAL LIAR. <p>He has completely ruined me financially, because all debt is in my name, even his car. (His credit was already ruined.) Friday I found out about more money he spent, that I've borrowed to start his business.<p>Since I got mad about the money, he told me he wanted a divorce, (as usual) and that I need "help" because I'm such a "control freak". He left and told me that he was filing for divorce.<p>I went to my parents' house, and found out about MORE lies he has told. He is a habitual liar, and I am COMPLETELY TRUTHFUL. My parents are sick of his lies and embarassed by his lies. He gets "caught" lying all the time.<p>Today he came home and told me that he would go to counseling because he is "committed to saving this marriage for the baby". <p>I have put up with his lies, and his irresponsibility for too long. He is taking me down with him, and I've worked very hard to be responsible and pay my bills, and be an honest person.<p>I am a Christian, and I know God hates divorce. My H believes in God, but isn't willing to "submit" or become a Christian. I know that where there is God, there is hope, but I feel so hopeless. <p>I don't believe that he can quit lying, especially when he doesn't consider himself a liar. Also, he wants to "split the bills down the middle" so that he doesn't have to be held accountable for what he spends. <p>I DON'T WANT TO TRY ANYMORE. I don't know why I ever loved him, not to mention the fact that I don't think I love him anymore. I know that I should try counseling, but I don't hold out hope anymore. CAN A PERSON WHO HAS LIED FOREVER BECOME HONEST? HOW DO YOU KEEP TRYING, EVEN WHEN YOU DON'T THINK YOU LOVE THEM ANYMORE?

Deanne,<br>I think that some real soul searching is advisable at this point and help from a professional counselor is a must. <p>You mentioned that you are a Christian and I must give you a quote from Dr. James Merrit, "If God can raise the dead, then He can raise up your marriage." The greatest need for your husband is to become a Christian and the greatest influence in that decision can be you. <p>I know that you have been very patient with him and you have much resentment built up from his persistent lying. You are at the point that you cannot believe anything he tells you. Maybe at this point in the relationship a legal seperation should be considered and see how willing he is to change.<p>Give it all you have so that if the worst comes to past you know you did your best.<p>My prayers are with you.<p>Scott

Thank you, Scott, for your reply. You are right about God being able to raise up a marriage. I was feeling really low when I posted. After church, I really felt better, and felt like I knew that God wants this marriage and wants my H to become a Christian and, of course, I need to have more faith. Sometimes I think the Pastor has been following me around all week, because it seems like he is speaking directly to me in the sermon! <p>I came home and told my H that I am confused and tired, but God wants this marriage to work, and wants me to try. I told him that I love him, and that I appreciate his committment. The MOST AMAZING thing happened! He started admitting that he was wrong to treat me the way he did, and that he was going to regain my trust! HE EVEN SAID THAT HE WOULD TRY THE MARRIAGE BUILDERS THEORY, THE POLICY OF JOINT AGREEMENT!<p>I was shocked! He has always hated when I'd mention things about marriage builders. <p>Some of the things he said are still very irresponsible, and I could easily say, "things aren't going to change if he feels that way", but I know that he has at least taken a big step in the right direction, and I'm going to hang in there!<p>He says that he doesn't need to find Christ for our marriage to work, but I asked him if he would do me a favor, and PRAY FOR OUR MARRIAGE. He said he would. <p>Sometimes it's hard to hang on, and it's great to read this sight, and see that others are hanging on, too. It is encouraging.

Deanne,<br>It was great to hear your good news. His agreeing to take a step forward is a big one and from a male point of view, he had to swallow some pride to do that. As males we sometimes (most of the time) see it as a weakness to ask for help and in our society we are raised to be strong and self-dependent. This is a really big step for him!<p>Be strong, keep the faith and always remember, "If God can raise the dead..."<p>Scott

Deanne,<br> Take it from someone who is in recovery. To me AA works! I have changed completly 180` by being reborn and going to AA. Although church and god give me some hope, I cant help but feel like it will never come back, its been 14 months since my seperation. Something you may not know is that AA is a very spirtual program and 6 of the 12 steps come right from the Our Father Prayer. Its a program that teaches humility and how to be a good person. It lets you know that your not the center of the universe. Alcolics are very self centered and impatient and it is due to the alcohol. You may notice that if you look back that the best times were when he was not drinking. I'm sure he does not think very much of himself on the inside, no matter what he shows on the out side. Since joining AA I have gotten self respect, the respect of my wife, mother in law and a relationship with my two boys I never thought could be. I like myself today and feel I'm worthy of my wife's love. She has not felt that way though. He can change just like me from a taker to a giver, He can find that giving has more rewards than taking and you feel good about it to boot. I would suggest that you find a support group like alanon and make a few friends there. Once there for a while you may figure a way of having him think he wants to go to AA instead of someone else telling him to go. I dont know what will work in your case but my wife leaving is what got me to church and AA. Its a hell of a way to learn a lesson but some of us are hard heads, hopefull yours can learn a little easier. Pray for him and hope for the best but expect the worst, that way you wont have any dissapointments. God Bless, Ken

Deanne;<p>I posted this a few months ago on the "Infidelity Forum." It seemed to aplly so well to your situation that I will repost it here. (the topic post was utilitarianism, by glenn)(somewhere in mid-Nov.)<p>Those involved in an extra-marital affair become very deceptive. They know what he/she is doing is terribly wrong. This causes a great amount of guilt. To deal with it, they deny anything which acknowledges the truth of their situation. But in order to tell a lie you must be aware of the truth first, then choose to misrepresent it. This is a dilemna which requires creating a new sort of reality<br>through denial. They repress what is undeniably true by redefining truth itself.<p>One illusion that is used is to redefine what normal behavior is by rationalizing it. Isn't having affairs common? Well of course, everyone does it. It is just a normal healthy sex drive and no worse than being an alcoholic. If having an affair helps improve sexual relations in my marriage isn't that a good thing? Yes, it does bring spice to my passion. I'm doing my spouse a favor. Besides, I really don't enjoy the sex all that much so it isn't such a big deal. The affair is not about sex. It is about having a friend to help me sort out the problems in<br>our marriage, that is what is important. <p>The lie requires so much thought that sometimes it is easier to just become<br>blind. A spouse or friend says, "can't you see what you are doing to your life?"<br>Knowing the truth is too hard to accept they ignore the question and reply something like, "I have no idea what you are talking about." If the question is pursued they turn to blind anger, "Stop pushing me around and trying to control me, I need a little space to find out who I am and you just keep badgering me!" <p>Liars once on the path will lie to anyone who will listen to them. The more a lie is told the more it becomes real. The more people they get to believe the lie the more valid it becomes. They begin lying to cover-up old lies until the deceit is so deep it is impossible to break free from. They become so good at this they sometimes are not even aware they are doing it. They start to lie about small insignificant things when the truth would have served the same purpose. Once they get to this point the only thing that will change them is to "HIT THE BOTTOM" and have it all exposed to the light of day. <p>Truthfulness has to be relearned and practised if they are to ever break free<br>from their illness. Yes, I do believe it is an illness. We all occasionally lie, but<br>we don't destroy other peoples live's without knowing it. An emotionally ill individual ignores the consequences of their behavior. So do adulterers and pathological liars and alcoholics. They are too sick to accept or understand the selfishness and devastation they bring upon others. <p>I've heard that we only hurt the ones we love. You can't cheat on a stranger.<br>You can't betray your enemies.<br>

Deanne,<p>Put your faith in the Lord. I believe that he will tell me when I have done all that I can to make this work. Try to focus on the good things that happen no matter how minute they seem. I'm glad he told you he would try. That is a big step. Just be patient and hold your ground. You are in my prayers. <p>Steph

Thank you all for your replies. I guess I'm back to not wanting to try anymore. Today I got another credit card bill with $180 of charges to bars. I very calmly told my H that I felt I deserved an explanation. He said that I did not, and he wrote me a check for the amount. I asked him how he spends $40 at a bar without drinking. (Something I've asked dozens of times- because this keeps happening) He said that he was drinking, because he "might as well drink since I'm being accused of it". He told me that he would not apologize, because he had said yesterday that he wanted to "wipe the slate clean".<p>Yesterday, when he was so committed to working on our marriage, he told me about how he had quit drinking 8 months ago. <p> I would not take his check. I tried to explain that he could not "buy off" my feelings, and that I was very hurt. He kept telling me that we wiped the slate clean yesterday. He didn't even understand how much it hurts me that he would continue to drink and lie after all of the problems it has caused. Later, he apologized, angrily, telling me why he really didn't need to apologize.<p>I really feel stupid for thinking that maybe we were actually going to have a good marriage, now that he says he is committed to it. Him, committed to our marriage, and going to change? What a joke.<p>I just don't see the point in this. I used to think that I needed to try for my daughter's sake. Lately, so many people have told me that it would be better for my daughter to live with a happy mother, rather than see me sad with her father.<p>He is truly the most selfish person I have ever met. I don't want to try anymore.<p>MORE ADVICE PLEASE! <p>

have you been to alt.recovery.codependecy?<br>It's a little group, with some very nice people and some very strange one's too. I lurk there and post occasionally (I think 3 so far). I also agree you need to go to a few ALANON meetings so that you can understand that you are not alone in your struggles. There is help out there, just ask......

Sometimes it is easy to feel that we are married to a Jekyll/Hyde. <p>I will probably get into a lot of trouble with this, but I honestly do not believe that God will hate/curse/disown you for a divorce. God wants us to be in happy, healthy monagamous relationships. Why do we want to believe that God wants us to stay where we are abused (all kinds), miserable or unfulfilled? The most important thing (that I believe) is that God loves you, and he wants you to be happy. Not that he wants you to give up immediately when we hit a rough place in life, but that we try and hope and dream and pray for strength and guidance. And if these things do not work and your best efforts have failed, then God will not strike you down for a failed marriage.<p>God can raise a marriage from the dead, but he can also raise your soul from the depths of hell. Staying in a bad marriage for the sake of God is not always the correct answer.<p>Tough love may be part of hubby's solution. Your H has many, many problems, and it sounds like profesional help (possibly for years) is adamant. <p>Good luck on all of this.

Deanne,<p>Several observations, and take them for just that. Your husband definately has a few problems, not the least of which is a drinking problem. Many more of them stem from his alcohol abuse. Sadly, until he can admit he has a problem he will continue down the path of self destruction, and take you with him. He obviously has some real issues that he can't or won't deal with, and until he does he will continue to cover up those issues with alcohol. <br>I speak from experience. After abusing drugs for over 20 years, I finally reached the end of the line. I had tried the 12 step programs several times and failed miserably. I finally put my trust in God, got intoa different kind of program and completely cured myself, and I have been clean for almost 4 years now. During this process, my wife, who abused drugs with me , became involved with , ironically, AA, mind you she was never an alcoholic, and subsequently left me and two of our three boys. I would have the youngest if she hadn't have taken him. After 17 months we are rebuilding our marriage, but only after I made up my mind that she was going to continue to be involved with AA. 12 step programs , although they work for a great many people, are very ME oriented. They teach you that you must do whatever it takes to stay clean, but they don't address the reasons why you keep doing the self-destructive things that brought you there in the first place. My wife has lost all zest for life if it doesn't include AA. Although I love her deeply, and can accept these changes, she still has the very core issues that led her to medicate herself so as to not feel the pain.<br>Trust in your feelings, seek professional help right away, with him and by yourself. Talk to him, convince him that you are serious and want a change, NOW. Don't stay for the sake of children. Stay because you love him and want to be with him. Be very careful with any 12 step related programs. They are ME based and don't deal with the real issues that led one to substance abuse in the first place. It may seem that he doesn't love you, but while struggling with the demons he loses sight of the really great things he stands to lose.<br>Be strong, be committed to what you want and don't wait. It will only get worse. Part of the end of his rope may be losing you, even temporarily. I never thought I would say that to anyone. <br>From someone who cares, be strong. E-mail me anytime, and that goes for anyone who may want to try another why to cure a substance abuse problem or deal with some one who has a problem. It can be done.<p>In Friendship,<p>John<p>(JCWELL@thegrid.net)