HI All, <BR>Want some advice/opinions/whatever from you all over on this forum. And, before I ask, nice to find some of you that I have missed! <BR>Most of you know the story....but in a nutshell h and I are trying to rebuild this 22 yr marriage after his infidelity. <BR>Things at home are just fine...in fact they are dandy. Or so it would appear. <BR>H is very attentive, loving, kind. Seems to be keeping his promise not to screw around. We both love each other. <BR>But it is 22 mos since all this crap started, and I am personally feeling terrible again. I am not real sure that I can ever get back to the point where I love this man unconditionally. I no longer adore my h like I used to. H does all the right things, but my heart does not respond? I am just not happy, and h knows it. <BR>I am having serious thoughts of ending this marriage.

cl,<BR>Long time no hear from.<P>Are you going to counseling? Have you been able to get any input from somebody professional? <P>I can inderstand how the trust would be gone, but you said he isn't running around on you any more so this is good.<P>I would say give yourself more time as you need to have your love bank refilled. Maybe it was drained further than you thought.<P>BEst of luck in what ever you decide.<P>God Bless,<P>Bob

hi bob,<BR>Yeah, longgggg time! <BR>It is rather hard for me to explain all that has been going on. Like I said, from the outside, all appears fine, but I am personally empty. The love i now feel is very different-more like that for a brother or best friend. There is no passion for him anymore. <BR>No counseling-have tried a few counselors and all have been very nonsupportive of continuing this marriage. This did not mesh with the mb and retrouvaille principles we have been following. <BR>Yeah, he is staying faithful, as near as I can tell. But part of that may be because he could not have sex for so long after surgeries (results of the disease process from ow std)? <BR>Just was thinking abt something else. No doubt there is a lot of anger inside of me. Afterall, he has screwed around the entire marriage and I did not know. Maybe I thought I dealt with the anger but it just simmers? <BR>I will give it time. I am not in a hurry. But I just miss being in love like I was for so many yrs! <BR>Thanks for the reply. <BR>How are you doing? Have read a few of your posts and think abt you often. ((((hugs)))) cl

cl,<BR>I hate to admit it, but since I got into this relationship a month ago, things have been going pretty good in my life. I am finally able to concentrate on work, especially the paperwork which I hate.<P>Thoughts of my x are almost gone, even the angry ones! <P>The kids seem to be doing well, although I think last week was test dad week, but I survived !! More importantly, so did they!!!!

Hi Cl,<P> You were so kind to reply on a thread of mine in the Recovery section.....it looks we are on the same timeline.....ours is 23yr. marriage and in recovery about 18mos.<P> I know how you feel but there is one difference , I think myH's affair was the only one, I cannot imagine dealing with a marriage full of affairs....You have an incredible amount of "stuff" to deal with and no wonder you aren't feeling so hot.Harley claims the more that has happened the more resentments.....have you counseled with one of the Harleys? That might help.<P>Do you have kids? It sounds to me like your H has seen the light and values you and the marriage and wants to "do right"....I think it's normal to feel the way you do (considering all that you are dealing with )......I'm sure you can get those loving feelings back if he consistenly meets your needs, stays faithful and enough TIME(hate that word!) has passed........Lu<P>Do you have kids?

Hi cl! I haven't heard from you in so long and was wondering how you've been! Hang in there... you say he is doing all the right things and that you both still love each other. That's worth it! I second the motion to get an appt with one of the Harleys. Y'all have come to far to quit now. Give yourself time - after all you spent soooo much time and effort on this. It's no wonder you're worn out! (((((cl))))) email me!<P>------------------<BR>Bobbie

HI All,<BR>Rwd, you sound so positive these days! Very nice to read your posts. Thanks. I am going to hang on a bit and just see what happens...I think! Yep, my head is a bit screwed up this week.<BR>Hi Lu, thanks for responding. No, I have not counseled with the harleys since the very beginning, and then only once. Thought it would not be worthwhile since all in the marriage is pretty good. Let me give it some thought. <BR>I do have kids-they live together and go to a univ out west. I think they would be very upset abt divorce, but they would rebound just fine. Both are pretty comfortable with the persons they have become.<BR>Patient...you have no idea how many times I have wanted to write you! How is the romance scene these days? Still with Mr Wonderful or ??? How are the kids? Catch me up-either on here or on e-mail!<BR>Time....jeezowhiz girl, I am tired of being patient! Maybe you are right-I am just worn thin. He called this morning, and does it all perfect. But I have this hatefulness that I keep hidden inside and it is eating at me. <BR>A song that comes to mind....bring back that loving feeling, ohhhh, that loving feeling....

CL...<P>You are a patient woman. At some point, no matter what path you and your husband take, he will understand how lucky he was to have partner that wanted to "Hang In" the relationship even with the ups and downs after discovery and recovery. He needs to understand how lucky of man he really is. The journey can be very emotional, painful and more hard work than the two of you have probably ever put into the relationship.<P>Some points you may want to reflect on...<P>1. Simmering anger is a very potent emotion that continually stirs the pot of frustration, resentment and a sense of hopelessness that can bring on depression. Even on its own, simmering anger is one of the biggest killers of love, caring and passion. Many of the folks in earlier posts talked about counseling. Many couple experts point out that in some cases the first or second therapist an individual or couple sees after and affair...is not a help but actually hurts the chances for recovery and forgiveness. You may want to see Vaughan-Vaughan.com as a resource. Peggy Vaughan talkes about "Getting The Right Therapist" is not an easy task. Check it out...it may be of some help to you.<P>2. We all someday need to deal with allowing this event not to control our thoughts and at some point look at how forgiveness can help us make it on our way. A book that you may want to consider and check out is "Making Peace with Youru Past" by Harold Blomfield, M.D. Helps understand forgiving your partner and forgiving yourself to move on with your live to a great future.<P>From your post...you seem to still be "Hurting" and that anger will be the major roadblock to trying to grow and build any loving, caring and nuturing feelings for your husband. You sound like you still have some work you have to do by yourself...and finding the right therapist for you first might help you ease the pain and anger that you talk about. You state that "Yep, my head is a bit screwed up this week"!...far from it I believe that you are still after 22 months still trying to put some of the pain and anger behind you so you can begin to build that trust and love bank balance back up.<P>Staying over 22 months after discovery and being patient and trying to rebuild makes me think you are a special kind of person. You do still have a chance and the choice to find your way back...but that anger and hatefullness is one of the biggest killers of any chance to rebuild your path back.<P>As the betrayer in my marriage I only was given 7 days after discovery for rebuilding and the Plan A process which then was followed by the filing of the paperwork divorce proceedings. You and your husband have come so far yet at times from what you write feels like it will never be like it was before discovery.<P>Looking at your counseling options and trying that a little longer may pay great results if you can find a therapist that you feel comfortable about and helps you.<P>My prayers to you that you can find your way back!<P>mrrlk

Keep in mind that there are always going to be tuff days.<BR>Maybe time alone with him will help?<BR>Maybe time alone will help you??<BR>either way i hope the best for you.<BR>Days sometimes feel so long and hard, i have them myself. But my love for him holds me here. Taking it all in and sifting threw it is always difficult.

Hey cl, old friend:<P>I think you're experiencing something that Steve Harley warned me about. As the spouse who did most of the work to restore the marriage gets close to the goal, you hit...<P>RESENTMENT<P>and my guess is that the harder and tougher the odds, the more resentment you may encounter.<P>I surely think that the marriage is worth saving (dandy is pretty damn good, in my opinion). You need to work through the resentment. It might be time to call the Harley's again, if you can't find someone local to help you. And your comment about getting to "unconditional love" is probably more an issue with growing and realizing that "unconditional love" is an extremely rare phenomonon in life. It happens in very few marriages. But "conditional love" is just fine to sustain a marriage, if both spouses make a concerted and effective effort to meet those conditions.<P>God bless, cl.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But "conditional love" is just fine to sustain a marriage<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>But I would guess that the point is this: "sustaining" the marriage isn't what cl wants... it's LOVE. Real, unconditional love.<P>Big discussion of just this topic on EN's forum, Truthseeker's thread.<P>Hi cl and K, by the way!!

HI all,<BR>thank you so much for responding. I appreciate it so very much.<BR>Mrrlk, you are exactly right abt needing a good counselor. I will look into finding one at the Vaughan site, or will call one of the harleys. It has been very hard for me to pinpoint the feelings I have-what they really are all abt? Maybe it is anger just simmering, and I definitely have an issue with forgiveness. I readily admit to reading tons of books on the subject but not being able to manage the task. Oh, there are weeks that I think I have it and something comes creeping in and bites me! I will keep trying. And will read the book you suggest. Thank you.<BR>Only given 7 dys? Now what can one accomplish in 7 dys? 7 dys after discovery I know I was still totally numb-an emotional wreck. I knew no decisions could be made at that point. (((hugs)))<BR>rtn2, thank you. Yeah some days are pretty long.....I have lots of time alone with him these days, which is something new! Maybe that is a contributing factor here? H is actually out west right now and due back tomorrow. I thought the time alone would be good, but maybe it gave me too much time to think? He returns tomorrow. <BR>HI K!!! Ahhh, the voice of sanity and reason?!?!?! How is the baby? And your w?<BR>I will followup up on the counseling. I do feel I need something to keep going-to put it all back together. I sure have no faith in my h. NONE. Like I said, he does everything right, but I still have no faith?! There are days when I just want to say 'yeah, yeah, yeah, could you just give me some warning when you need to go out and screw someone else?' <BR>I think this is abt me, not abt the actual health of the marriage? Resentment.....that sounds right. There is certainly an unhealthy level stirring some days. <BR>Unconditional love is something we have talked abt. I thought we had it, and I do MISS it, and I want it back! Delusional?<BR>Hey NB, I thought you were missing in action? E-mail address changed? Time for you to play catch up!!! <BR>You are right-sustain is not really cutting it. I want it all! Geez, maybe I want too much? <P>Okay, general consensus is counseling. I will do it, and let you all know what happens. I am a bit scared, especially after some of the doozies I have seen in the past! One way or another, I need to push forward. Work toward removing resentment and true forgiveness. Dang this is all so hard!

cl,<P>there is very little UNconditional love between married partners. That is why there are affairs, an emotional need not being met.<P>If you want your marriage to work he has to work to gain your trust, but you have to be willing to trust again. If you can't, you are harboring resentment that will become a self fulfilling prophecy. Of course the marraige will neer be the same, but unless you both open up, and become emotionally closer, then you don't have a chance of learning from the mistake.<P>It appears you are hitting the resentment wall K discussed, and need to get beyond it.<P>We did 10 years ago, but then my work load got heavy, and my STBX feelings of abandonment came back, and she could not overcome them, although the reasons were not the same, she did not open up to let me understand what she was feeling, and how I could help. She only spoke with anger, to which I did not understand or respond to well.<P>So please, if you want to save your marriage, you must learn forgiveness, understand your resentment, and make a plan to get through it.<P>good luck<P>thl<BR>

cl:<P>You're dealing with issues concerning trust, and if I remember your husband's infidelities, he basically acted pretty lovingly to you while he was lived his sex addiction. It's going to be harder for you to trust, because you don't probably recall any clear signs of him having an affair (and you want him to just tell you).<P>So, part of this trust issue falls squarely on your husband's shoulders to not EVER put himself in this type of situation again. And that means being responsible for his whereabouts at all times. My guess is that he's doing a pretty good job at it, and your having problems with minor triggers that get you worked up.<P>Do get back into the counseling. My guess is that you'll only need a "tune-up"... Remember that the love you had---it wasn't unconditioinal---it was naive and blind. Your husband shattered your conditions for loving him, and he's going to have to rebuild this. It doesn't mean that the two of you can't have a terrific, wonderful, fulfilling marriage---it just means that you have to realize that each other have human weaknesses. You can both help each other to overcome these, and build that relationship that you want. It sounds like you've been pointed in nearly the right direction.<P>That little baby of mine you mentioned is coming up on his second birthday!! He's an unbelievable joy---just the happiest, smartest, funniest little boy in the world (although dad was up all night with him---he's got a cold). My wife is doing pretty well too---she's been counseling with Jenn Harley and dealing with her issues concerning guilt and self-esteem. <P>I've just noticed a lot of our "class of '98" MB graduates are hitting roadbumps recently. It's a process, and the skills that we've learned here will help us get through them with stronger marriages...<P>

Just a thought..<BR>Have you tried writing down all that your H did that made you angry, hurt, distrustful and whatever else happened and then...set fire to it? I mean in a way to rid your heart of all this STUFF and put it behind....<BR>It sounds like H is trying to meet your needs and now you must get rid of the hurt and bitterness...try to put it in the past..now that he is trying....<BR>As long as he isn't repeating any old behaviours ..<BR>Try it it might help and remember to remind yourself this is /was all in the past and BURN IT BIG TIME.....may help....what have you got to lose?<P>Then just start over again with your H...pretend you've met him for the first time and get to know him all over again...<BR>Put your best foot forward like your courting days....what you give to others always comes back to you.

Just a few thoughts:<P>A good therapist could be very helpful to you, of course the wrong one could have devastating effects. Along with resentment, feelings of bitterness, anger, and even hatred may have come along for the joy ride. It's possible that these feelings have been repressed until recently as you were focused on making him happy, and you may be experiencing PTSD. As you get closer to your goal of stabilizing the relationship, these emotions must be dealt with or you will forever stay at this point.<P>Forgiveness is sometimes very difficult to deal with, but from what "K" mentioned, you may be in a different situation than others here. I gather that there was a sex addiction involved. It might help to look at this as something that he had no control over in his life because of either a bi-polar disorder or a situation from his past. Try and look at it as a disease, that he may not have done this to specifically hurt you, but only you know the answer to this and whether it was an addiction or not and why, just something that came to mind.<P>Ther are several books, here in particular, <A HREF="http://www.weiner-davis.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.weiner-davis.com/</A> , that deal with marital problems based on our expectations of what it is supposed to be like, rather than what is realistic, especially long-term.<P>Good luck to you. You have been in this relationship for a long time, and have endured much. It would be a shame to let it go after what you've accomplished to this point. You may be closer than you think to achieving happiness.<P>------------------<BR>I am in this situation for a very good reason, it just took time to get over my own self-pity and understand why.

Hello Stillpraying, thanks! Yes, he was/is a sexual addict. He will not go to any meettings or that sort of support, but counsels with a priest-the only person he feels he can trust. They are a good team-successful when so many are not in this situation. <BR>My situation is rather different than most of the affairs others deal with. The infidelity occurred over a 23 yr time period, constantly, and I did not know abt it at all. Some rather lengthy relationships, one nt stands, whores, etc. Not pretty. And we got to deal with disease entities and repeated surgeries related to the last affair. The entire time my marriage seemed wonderful to both of us. H is very admanant that all was fine at home-he just had this little problem. <BR>I am still working on forgiveness. I have such a roadblock with it, but am not ready to just throw in the towel yet. <BR>I will see if Michelle has any new books for me to read! Gads, the book shelves are sagging, but I am always open-minded. Thanks you very much.<BR>Hi Tyra, I just laughed at the burning post! Gee, a bonfire would be nice this time of year. Have burned all sorts of things in ceremonial attempts to rid myself of some feelings. Time to do it again!!! Gee Wasstubborn should be making an appearance at the mention of bonfires....that is her specialty!<BR>THl, thanks! Trust....a big issue around here. I say I trust him, but I know I have the 'voices of reason' telling me to be very careful! So, the trust is not complete. If I give myself over totally to trust, then I am just setting myself up right?! My head and my heart do not agree on the trust issue, and that may be why I feel I need to ask you all abt divorce. But not trusting just builds resentment in me....at least I think that is one of the problems. <BR>I am reluctant to lay this on the table to h-which certainly hampers emotional closeness. I know it would hurt him because he wants me to love him as I did before. Tough call.<BR>HI K. So happy to hear Noah is such a joy! Those all nighters end soon enough...just keep saying that as you suck down the coffee today! And I am happy to read your w is counseling. <BR>The class of 98! We do seem to be hitting a few speedbumps.... I need a moe powerful push to send me over the top of the bump?! <BR>Yes, it is a process. He is working at this too, and I do appreciate his efforts. He is accountable, etc. but he always was! It is really up to him if he can truly kick this thing once and for all. I am not one of those that says she will forgive relapses as long as he works toward the goal. I have become rather a hard-*** abt that! <BR>I will call Jennifer or Steve on Thurs and get an appt. I do need a tune-up. Got to get rid of this resentment before I allow it to destroy what we have done here!<BR>Hope you are enjoying the beautiful fall up north! Thank you again!<P>

HI CL<P>Sorry you are having some issues. I know how it feels always wondering about trust.<P>I wish I could give you a hug and tell you things will be better. Listen to eveyone else...they have given some really wonderful advice.<P>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{CL}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>Just know that we care about you and what your feeling. Try and pamper yourself. Because you are worth it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> If I give myself over totally to trust, then I am just setting myself up right?! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, yes and no. Blind trust, yes. Earned trust, no.<P>There are reasons why you have stayed, why you haven't divorced him. Everyone makes mistakes, and I think you should give him the benefit of the doubt ONCE until it happens again, and it may not.<P>What was the reason for his straying? Is there any EN of his going unme? Granted you have been here a year longer than I have, so pardon my ignorance of your history.<P>But also, you need to set a plan with a time limit for yourself to see how well he can earn your trust.<P>Hey, people do make mistakes, and learn from them. One learns the most from the bigger mistakes, if they want to. If life didn't have speed bumps, it would be very easy, and life is not fair or easy!<P>So stop with the self fulfilling prophecies, and start building it. Hey, one never knows, but if you don't trust him, make him sign a renuptual agreement, giving you everything<BR>:razz: But seriously, if you allow him to earn it, you allow him to be human, and you allow yourself to be above him.<P>You have fear of the unknown, and that has to be overcome, or your marriage will not survive because you have a weakness now.<P>think about it.<P>thl