A topic came up on [censored]'s thread. He specifically wanted us to let that thread die, so in respect to his wishes, I am commenting here.<P>For some reason, there are some people who think celibacy or non-dating after a divorce is martyrdom. I'm not offended by that assumption, but I did want to kind of clear things up. For some reason, when I stress responsibility and thoughtfulness when dating after a divorce (like waiting till your "stuff" is together and you're not sucking someone else dry), people think I'm telling them never to date again and spend the rest of their lives "alone". When I stress the same as regards to sex, people think I'm telling them to be celibate. <P>I don't consider myself a "martyr" because I'm celibate, just practical. I believe that 75% divorce statistic for people who remarry. <BR>I feel sorry for parents who have children and are divorced against their will. If you do date, then you risk teaching them the lesson that getting divorced is no big deal. If you don't date, then you feel like a martyr, or at least people tell you that you are a martyr because the definition of happiness has to include sharing your bed with *someone* nearly non-stop through every stage in your life. <P>Many people have expressed that they miss the intimacy that comes with marriage. Who says that that can only occur in marriage? I'm not talking about committed romantic relationships that do not involve walking down the aisle. <P>I'm talking about ways that people can meet their needs for touch and affection that do not involve having sex or even talking about sex. It is unfortunate that, for most of us, we only get affection through sex. We really have become quite uncreative, as a society, in meeting those needs in safe ways.

TS,<BR>I didn't mean to imply that you or others think yourselves as martyrs for doing what you think is best in your situation, that was probably a poor choice of words on my part.<P>I agree with what you say about fixing what is wrong with ourself before we get into a relationship. But,,,,, how do you know when your stuff is together ??? It may be in my mind, but is it in someone else's? How do you/me/anybody find out if we are ready for a relationship?<P>I understand about doing things in groups, but if you can find a group of single people in their mid 40's let me know, as I haven't been able to find that so far. So I do seek out dates with eligble women. <P>Well, my s is home from school and I've lost my train of thought, so I'm gonna go. I imagine there will be some additional posts to this thread so I'll probably be back.<P>Bob

RWD,<P>I'm afraid I'm totally spoiled as far as hanging out with the opposite sex because I'm surrounded by men in my work. I don't discount the "vicarious" satisfaction I probably am getting from that. This fact, I'm sure, has most likely made it much easier for me to go out in groups, but maintain a certain distance. It is different for me, though, because I'm not looking.<P>My roommate goes to "alumni" outings at sports events. She's a big Florida State fan, and has met a few people that way. Other than that, she does volunteer work now and then. Me too, but mostly to fill up my time and meet non-engineers for a change!!<P>When I was shopping around looking for a house/apt to rent some time ago, the couple who were renting it noticed my "Hands On Atlanta" T-shirt. It is a popular volunteer group here. They met each other doing volunteer work. Actually HOA has quite a few social events as well. Habitat for Humanity is another good one. I've struck up conversations at road races (i.e. running).<P>There is also a bicycling club that meets locally on Sundays, and a running club that meets on Thursdays and goes to a local eatery afterwards.<P>One of these days if I ever DO decide to date again, that is where I will start. Volunteer work, road races, athletic events, professional groups, etc. <P>Oh, I forgot to answer your other question... I know that I will be ready for another relationship when I am ready to recommit. Kinda like when people decide to have kids when they decide to become committed parents. My time and love are precious. My family and close friends (not to mention my dogs) can benefit much more from my energy than some guy who doesn't know what he wants in life. <P>I'm wierd that way. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited December 04, 2000).]

TS,<P>For the first time I can remember you finally said something I can agree with 100%.<P>After the disaster I've lived through in the past few years the last thing in the world I want is to have another "significant other" in my life. In fact if I had the authority women would be banned from the county I live in. <g><P>Honestly, I don't feel the "need" to have another person around to make my life fulfilling. Now that I have the divorce finalised, and paid off the divorce settlement (I have other words for it but will not use them in polite conversations) I just can't see myself ever getting into that rut again.<P>Physical needs for sex and touching can be "handled" alone, so to speak. ([censored], is that to "off color" for you?)

My counselor (bless that woman, she was a big help when I really need it!) once told me "we only learn through relationships."<P>I don't believe she meant that we only learn through "love" relationships. But I do think she is right if you include close friends, family, children, bosses, cow-orkers, etc.<P>I think the reason this is so, is because when you are by yourself, you have absolutely no motivation to improve or change. I don't even think you can tell what you are doing that others find offensive.<P>Here are some examples:<P>Do single guys ever learn to put the toilet seat down? Wipe the shower door? Clean up the empty pizza box? Beer cans?<P>Does anybody care whether or not you come home at a decent hour?<P>If you had no boss, how would you know if you are doing a good job at work? (I know we all think we are doing a great job, but how do you know?)<P>If you have poor conflict resolution skills, how would you know? You are by yourself watching "Friends", or maybe "Bay Watch". Not much to argue about.<P>I agree that no one should re-enter the dating game until they feel that they are ready to do so. It's good to try and clear up as much baggage as possible before hand. But once you get back out there, be prepared to discover you know a lot less than you think you do. Even just about how to get along in relationships. I have discovered that what worked with my ex doesn't always work with other girls. And lots of things that didn't work with my ex work wonders on other girls. Everyone is different, and you have to start all over again. Every time. Damn. Only with more baggage than the time before. Double damn.<P>After my ex dumped my sorry a$$, I got involved in a rebound relationship pretty quickly. Looking back, I can see that it was very helpful for both of us. We each had lots of issues to deal with, and we were a great help to each other. It was exactly what I needed at the time, and I wouldn't change a minute of it. I believe the same is true for her, and we still talk quite often. But it was a mistake for either of us to assume it would last forever. We were great friends, working through all kinds of issues with each other. But when it came time to see if we share long term goals for our lives, well, we kind of hit a stumbling block. But I honestly don't know if I would even know what my long term goals were if it wasn't for that relationship. I don't know if she would either.<P>But I don't think that works for everybody. Everyone has to decide for themselves when is the right time to date. Also when is the right time for sexual relations. Certainly if you think your spouse might come back it is the last thing you want to do. My ex was quite clear that there wasn't a snowball's chance in hell, so in some ways I was lucky. I had a degree of certainty a lot of people don't get when they are going through these things.<BR>

nonplused,<BR>How are things going now... You've been missing from the board for awhile. I remember you from the "old" days.<P>A few months after my divorce, I dated someone for a couple of months. It was an absolute disaster and set me back quite a bit. I do regret that. That is probably why I'm so vehement about warning people to be careful, that is all. Some good did come out of though. It completely solidified my conviction that "dating" is completely out of the question until I finish my PhD. My situation is different than alot of other folks for that reason. <P>Another thing that worried me was the "just go for it" advice that I saw on some of the dating threads awhile back. I agree that entering into any relationship involves a certain leap of faith. However, I truly believe that people (myself included) really underestimate how damaging divorce is to their psyche in so many ways. That is, if they ever gave a damn in the first place. <P>I'm glad you have a good female friend. I think we'd all like to find a way to restore our trust in the opposite sex. <P>Country Guy,<BR>I don't necessarily think marriage is a "rut". I'm not avoiding marriage or a relationship for that reason. There is a wide range of variation, of course, but the cultural expectations for men and women within a marriage are pretty narrow. Most of the marriages that I see that are succeeding are not "unconventional". Just the opposite. The ones that tend to succeed more often are the ones in which the woman and man mostly adhere to "traditional" roles and are happy to do so. <P>That, and those sobering statistics don't bode well for multiple marriages. In every point in life, windows of opportunity open, while others close. My marriage was as good as it gets for someone like me at this stage in my life, so that window of opportunity has closed for now. I predict there will be another opportunity when I reach about 50-60. Men of that age most likely aren't looking for a SAHM or someone to follow their career/life ambitions without providing the same in return. I know I could be a really nice companion for someone someday.

I'm doing quite well, T.S., thanks for asking. And you?<P>I don't hang here much any more, mostly because I've kind of moved to a different phase in my life. I've got things pretty much back together, and I'm doing just fine. I just drop by once in a while to see what's going on. The board was a great help when I needed it.<P>Most of the issues seem to stay the same as they were back then. It's interesting how much everyone has in common when they go through these things.<P>If I have any general comments to the general poster, it's this: "Time heals all wounds". I know, not very original. But I can testify that all these thing everyone is feeling will seem a lot smaller one day. Then you meet the right person or find your life's calling, and it all seems worthwhile.<P>One of our administrative assistants said to me way back when I was first telling my cow-orkers that it looked like I was getting divorced, "You know, you'll be better off without her." At the time I didn't realize she was right.<P>Fact is, many dumpers seem self absorbed and inwardly focused. They are good at blaming their spouse for things but not terribly inclined to pull their end of the relationship, or accept any responsibility. But I think everyone has to go through the "grass is greener on the other side phase" at least once before they realize the truth of the old saying "wherever you go, there you are". You can't stop them. They need to go through that phase of their journey.<P>I now realize it is lots less stressful not to be around my ex while she is going through this phase. She actually did me a favor. I didn't do anything to deserve that treatment. The reasons lie with the person who takes the action. I know longer ask why she did what she did. I no longer accept responsibility for her decisions. I spend more time wondering what to do now. It turns out there is an awful lot of good things and people out there, who are more on my journey than she was.<P>(It's not that I was a perfect husband; I was not. But if all the unperfected husbands out there deserved to be divorced, no one would stay married. She was not a perfect wife either. It's not a perfect world. But it takes two people who are "on board" to get through this unperfected thing called "a relationship". The person who decides they are not "on board" ultimately is responsible for the end of the relationship.)<P>So, for all the broken hearts: I know it hurts; I was there. But it does get better. With or without your STBX, it does get better. It turns out life is a wonderful thing, even without your spouse.<P>50 or 60???? My lord, I hope you are 48 now. If you don't mind me asking, you better not be 30 and talking that way.<BR>

TS,<P>I haven't been on the board as much so I'm a little behind on the "off color" thread. <P>There is nothing wrong with the life you are chosing. I have made mistakes and had disasters I regret too. We all do. <P>I agree that there are lots of ways to show intimacy and feel closeness "besides" sex. When a couple works hard on these options, they find a great deal of satisfaction in the emotional closeness they gain that sometimes can be lost in the physical act of it. <P>I think if I worked with all men, and engineers if I remember correctly, I'd feel differently too no matter what, regardless of this affair situation I just went thru. <P>Good luck , Dana<P><BR>

Nonplused,<P>Yes, it is pretty amazing to see all of the similarities. The more I try to figure things out, the more it comes down to the fact that my ex just stopped trying. I think we're all guilty of looking back in retrospect and saying "ah-ha, that is what did it". People usually only say those things after it is over though. <P>I'm 36. I want to find a nice job after I graduate, buy a house, and adopt a couple of children. Not much time for romance. I'm sure I will have male friends (like I have now), and a little playgroup for the kids. When my kids are grown up, maybe I'll think about doing the romance thing again. Alot of men aren't raised to really pull their own weight domestically or with childcare, so I don't really need more work and "fun-time" Dad doesn't cut it for me either. Sorry guys. You know it's true. Works for alot of people, just not me. <BR>

Everybody enters into different types of relationships for diferent reason.<P>sexual, financial, emotional, dependency.<P>I think that when you met someone, there are stages you go through, when your ready you will naturally progress to the next level or the relationship dies out.<P><BR>

Helping,<P>I completely agree. I know I sound like I'm knocking guys, but truth is, there are lots of women who truly enjoy providing most of the domestic support and childcare. Most men my age who want or have kids are looking for that. I don't blame them. If I were a guy, I'm sure I'd do the same.

I disagree that "Time heals all wounds." Somethings just don't heal. My FIL's indifference toward my H and favoritism of his brother left lasting scars. My H's emotional abandonment of our children, especially since he once seemed to love them very much, is something that will almost undoubtedly leave lasting scars as well. And I am not stupid enough to ever completely trust anyone again.

Nellie,<BR>you know I agree with you. I don't think time heals all wounds. This will affect them for the rest of their life. <P>I don't see myself ever fully trusting a man with my life again either, which is why I'm hoping to re-create a family on my own terms by adopting. No way any kids of mine are going to be put through this divorce hell because their father decides he is bored or something. I think kids raised by a good, stable, loving, single parent are much better off than those who go through a divorce.

TheStudent,<P>I agree that it is far better to have only one parent than to have your parent stop caring. There is nothing worse than that. <P>I wish there were some way I could have forseen that he would do this. I had a few doubts very early in our relationship - but I never doubted his fidelity. For almost 20 years, I thought he loved his family with all his heart. <P>In retrospect, there were several periods during the last quarter of a century when he became very irritable and angry, and I was not usually able to connect it with anything concrete. At the time I usually thought it was financial strain. It may have been episodes of depression resulting from that strain. Then again, he may have been self-medicating for depression with adultery. <P>I now know that you can never know anyone. With ordinary friends, it really isn't much of a problem - if they turn out to not be whom they pretended to be, it would be sad, but not tragic. But I would much rather be alone forever than ever go through this again, and I sure wouldn't want to put my kids through it.

Student - Thanks for a thought-provoking thread. I feel the same way - being single is not so bad - I have a freedom now that I didn't even know I missed!! I, too, wonder if there are very many men out there that can truly commit, with that committment not being contingent upon an unequal give and take, with them taking and me giving!! I think all of them that exist are here on this board!! I feel no pressure to have another realtionship any time soon. I want to make sure all my baggage is taken care of before I inflict myself on someone else!<P>Nonplused - Thank you for your observations - what you wrote could have been written by me - it perfectly describes my Ex-H's behavior. He expected me to be, do, act, feel and look the way he thought I should. I was supposed to make all the changes and sacrifices, while he made none, but enjoyed all the things I did for him. Then dumped me when he met someone he thought could give him "a better deal". Well, we'll see how long "the better deal" lasts!!

Nellie,<BR>How could you possibly know? Even to this day, people don't realize that most divorces involve infidelity. I mentioned that to one of my friends, and after a few moments for a mental count of all those whom she knew had divorced, she had to concur.<P>I think me and you could agree that it wasn't actually the infidelity that was the worst. It was the way they systematically destroyed every happy memory we ever had, then haul b*tt without an ounce of remorse. <P>For a very long time, I did not want kids at all. I was happy with my extended family of neices and nephews, with my H as my family. I've been jaded for quite some time about the "Leave it to Beaver" dream family. When I was 16, I babysat for a lady who had 5 kids and whose husband left her. <P>Lady M,<BR>You sound like you're doing good and enjoying life again. Thanks for dropping by!

TheStudent,<P>Until after my H left, I had no clue that most divorces involved infidelity. I really believed that most divorces followed years of conflict. <P>I have since been informed by a teenager that even they know that men (or boys) never leave unless there is someone else.<P>Yes, one of the worst parts is that every memory is tainted. I know longer know what, if anything, was real, in my entire adult life (I met my H about a month after I finished college). And it was so easy for him to just run away and jump into an entirely new, fully furnished, life.

Nellie,<P>That is probably true for both men and women, but it is still men that cheat the most. <P>Some have argued that women will do the same if she can make out financially. I don't have any friends or family who have made out financially though. Most suffered a significant drop in lifestyle, which statistics also bear out.

Nont trying to one up you here but I just read somewhere where it is now upto 15% of divorces where the woman leaves the husband and the children. I don't think this is an area were we need equality.<P>Also I think it was the same article where it said men suffer more physically and emotionally than thought(this was obviously a men's article).<P>I know I've felt more emotions in the past year and a half than I have ever in my life.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheStudent:<BR><B><BR>Alot of men aren't raised to really pull their own weight domestically or with childcare, so I don't really need more work and "fun-time" Dad doesn't cut it for me either. Sorry guys. You know it's true. Works for alot of people, just not me. <BR> </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't hang out on this board too much (although unfortunately I think I am heading in this direction ), but I'll tell you, this quote above is nonsense.<P>TS, I'm the same age as you (almost), the same profession, and I watch our kids and take care of every element of running our house while my W (WS) is running around with married men and is spending every breathing moment at her work. So it kinda hurts to hear this crap about "fun-time Dads", OK?<P>I know you're going to say that "there's an exception to every rule", but I think your "rule" is hogwash in this day and age. I see a lot of bitterness towards men from you, and I won't say it's not justified regarding your particular H(s). But please, don't make generalizations about all men. I certainly won't say anything bad about women based on my W's behavior; rather, I'd say she shattered a lot of my beliefs about humanity in general. But this is not a men vs. women issue, IMHO, and it would be a shame to turn these boards into a men or women bashing frenzy.<P>Peace,<P>AGG<P>