OK, picked up 8yo d and 11 yo s on friday night after work, and son wanted to go to a friends to sleep. So I quiz the X on his behavior, and she says fine. his grades - great, B+/A- student, so I say ok, and then the X asks 11 yo what was his grade on his last paper, and he said C. The X didn't believe him, asked him if he was joking, "because he jokes around alot", and he got mad back at her, telling him that was the truth. so then he shows her what he didn't do well in, after X had helped him with the paper. needless to say, she was glad to see me go, although I didn't say anything negative. i can say nothing very well!<P>So then 8 you d and I had a movie by ourselves, and when it was over, a little late, but it was friday, the d threw the uncooperative fits, and since i have been working on them understanding its not their house here, i told her she couldn't call her mom to say good night because she was uncooperative when I gave her a late night, and she wouldn't get ready for bed, then tried to boss me around, telling me what she was going to do. etc.<P>so I let her call saturday because the X didn't pack any shirts for d, all pants. so d was constantly apologetic for not calling to say good night. and then of course X wants to talk for a long time on the phone, I told her we were planning to go somewhere, so of course X then talks to me about alienation, etc. and she is having a hard time, etc. well, needless to say, i asked her to allow me to establish a relationship with my kids, and the I don't alientate her with the call this morning.<P>history: X has always "protected" the kids from me, ie, defended them against my pushing them to learn new skills, challenge them mentally with some different ways to look at things, or not being satisfied with just doing something one way. (i am not black and white)<P>so was I right? or am i being manipulated by the kids? what the heck do i say to the X?<BR>i hate this for the kids. . . . <P>WIFTTy<P>

No, I don't think it is at all appropriate to punish your daughter by not letting her call her mother to say goodnight. I suspect that sort of punishment will backfire on you sooner or later, probably sooner.<P>And one of the reasons it is good to have two parents is that they can provide a system of checks and balances.

Your children are going through an awful time as well. It is competeley normal for them to act out. There whole world has been turned around. They don't get the intricate reasons why Mom and Dad are splitting up. They don't care for the most part. Basically, all they know is that you and your spouse have messed things their lives up. They had absolutely nothing to do with this. <P>I have two boys and they are having an incredibly difficult time with our divorce. It doesn't help that my spouse makes no effort to be a good parent or does he not bad mouth me every chance he gets in their presense. This is not good nor is it helpful to the boys.<P>What was the big deal if your daughter wanted to call her mother. Perhaps you could have said okay, but only for ten minutes since it's late. The last thing you want to do is drag your kids into the middle. It is very hard sometimes not to, but it's not fair to them. <P>You and your ex need to talk about parenting and not drag the kids into it. That way everyone is comfortable...well maybe not completely, but it is tolerable. <P>Kids need routine, stability, and need to know that they are loved; they need to know that they are in no way shape or form responsible for the mess we adults have created for them.<BR>

I think you may have dropped the ball on not letting her call her mother when she wanted/needed to.<P>Given the situation she may in fact NEED the knowledge that either one or both of her parents are a phone call away, AT ANY TIME.<P>Be honest, what do you think you taught your D with this action?

WIFTT,<P>You wrote "since i have been working on them understanding its not their house here, i told her she couldn't call her mom to say good night"<P>Hope I didn't take what you wrote the wrong way, did you mean their behavior should be appropriate no matter where they are at any given time? If not, shame on you!<P>Of course your "house" should be considered your childrens "home"! To me, if this is what you are teaching your children, you'd better step back and re-think this one, seriously. Keeping mom at bay wasn't a very wise discipline move either. That one will backfire on you.<P>Just telling you what I think, if I took the intention of what you wrote wrong, sorry in advance.<P>Ragamuffin

Thanks for the honest reviews.<P>part of my reasoning was that the kids have a very hard time respecting just talking with me in normal tones of voice, even when I just ask regular questions. so when they fight me just going to bed, pout, throw temper tantrums, etc. I used that one to point out cooperation. bad choice, but it was an immediate response. and the X doesn't have them call me everynight.<P>and since i just got them two hours ago, and the X likes to chat up a storm with them on the phone. it isn't exactly helpful when I want to establish a relationship with them, to have the X who has them more than me, chatting for long periods of time with them<BR>at my house.<P>so i will think up a different consequence, or timing or something different.<P>so i appreciate the feedback, just more to learn. but it is interesting from my point of view, she very seldom supported me in front of the kids, to the point of saying she will tell them x and y, but often didn't follow through, but immediately complains if there is anything even suspected against her. she has even called me up and yelled at me for having a good time with them, and then called back to apologize.<P>One of the reasons why we aren't together is the radically different parenting styles. She is a coddler and treats everyone as 5-7 years old, even to me when we were married. comes up with million and one excuses for whatever she wants to do. I try to teach responsibility and respect and consequences, and it has been a long and difficult battle when she does everything for them at her house, and I make them responsible for their actions and stuff here.<P>just my point, she didn't know or believe the grade on the big report that she helped with, and got burned when she asked. and she does not support me in my helping them with homework, because she is a teacher, and only teachers are good at that for some reason.<P>I made a mistake, but she still pisses me off to no end with her style!<P>WIFTTy

just a question<P>why is it that she doesn't require the kids to call her to say good night when they are sleeping over friends houses for a weekend, but has to at their dad's house?<P>interesting paradox<P>

uh oh!<BR>I KNOW EXACTLY what you are writing about.....(and you know a lot of my story) but the LAST thing that you want to do is "punish" your kids by not letting them call their mom WHENEVER they want to. Just biteyour tongue at this point and try to take a couple of deep breaths. Let them call, complain about you, whatever, they need to be able to know that they can do this and still be loved by you,no matter what. Acceptable behaviour is another matter entirely. There are so many other creative ways of letting your d and s know what your limits are and how to get them to stop the testing (which they will always do,after all they are kids and would have done this whether you and x weretogether or not...it is the nature of the beast....and it only gets more diffucult as they get to be teens. This is the best time to work WITH them to cooperatively sit together and explain what YOUR expectations for their behavoiur is when they are with you. When they are not angelic (and this is a given) then it would be helpful for them to know in advance what the consequences for this behaviour is. Do not threaten not to see them, do not play into any of the better/ worse parent cr%p. Simply set your workable limits and have them work with you to define these. If they have input, then it is somewhat easier to impose the consequences when they do mess up a little or even a lot.<BR>Children do better when they know what is not only expected of them,but when they know the consequences, especially at this time when so much has changed for them. <P><BR>They all call to complain about me to him and slut. He buys into this as he cannot, will not and just plain refuses to communicate with me, and this does cause problems for d (14) but it is always my fault in H's and d eyes. This I can and have to live with. so if your d calls her mom to say goodnight,complain about your parenting, or even to mouth off to her mom how awful you are please allow her to.....no matter how hurt you will feel. <P>My d calls father many times a day (or he cr@ps on her),but when she has her weekends with him I never get a call....and I have let her know how I feel about this.....and have told her this is her choice and this is how I feel.If she cares sheshould do something about it, if not,never to apologize as it is meaningless,since her continuing behaviour in no way mirrors her apology. <P>One of the things I never did (but am probably blamed for this anyway) is intefere with the father's court ordered visitation. I do tell my younger two that if they do x,y, or z I will ground them, BUT NEVER when it is for their father's visitation,and the grounding occurs around this...which makes it harder for me,but that is the way it has to be. It is up to the kids to decide if they want to see their dad (no matter how upset I get that they are angelic in his presence no matter how uncaring his behaviour is,and they keep on buying into his lies and manipulative behaviour) So please trynot to play into this triangulation game...it is not pretty.<P>The other thing is that you should let the kids feel that your home is also their home.....but it is your House, and therefore as the parent you make the rules for them to follow when they are at home with you. A subtle but very important difference and one that my kids do understand...even the 20 year old who I have been estranged from and wants to spend some time living with me during the holidays. It is their home, providing they respect the rules of my house.<P>Good luck....but please try to remember that by forbidding contact with their mom when they are with you, you are in effect trying to alienate them.This is not a competition as to who parents better. The kids anyway will figure out for them selves who you are to them and who their mother is. From what I know both of you,with very different parenting styles are great parents.<P>Also astime goes by,donot let the kids play the game with their mom and you with the revolving door. Since you communoicate with X this should not be a problem,but if they get mad with her, then want to live with you, do not allow it unless you and x sit down and discuss this as 2 sane, caring and competent adults. And the children should always know that you both make the most important decisions about their lives together,no matter what your differences are. (THis is where it got really crazy for my kids)<P>Have a good weekend and remember that it always getss a little nutty at holiday time.<P>If you want to "talk" this over you have my e-mail.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by willbok99 (edited December 16, 2000).]

Tom,<BR>I agree with the others here. Don't prohibit the calls. Maybe a "bribe" is order when they do call, such as when you are done on the phone with your mom, we can have some ice cream, play a game you like, etc, something that she really likes may help shorten the calls.<P>Just give the kids time to adjust. It sounds like the are not comfortable with you yet.<P>As for punishments, everything I've read is make the punishment fit the crime. She was doing something and was non-cooperative. She needs to be punished with that particular event in mind, not something else. Her being uncooperative in one thing, should not impact her in another area. It doesn't always work, my threat with me d is take away the computer and I can get her to do anything.<P>Hang in and give yourslef time.<P>Bob

Tom,<P>I have no suggestions to offer, since I haven't walked the path you are on.<P>I just want to encourage you to be strong and show your children the unconditional love we fathers have for them.<P>Hang in There!<P>Scott<p>[This message has been edited by nowhereman (edited December 17, 2000).]

Well, its the first time in 6 months, and I needed MB to slap me, not the X. so thanks.<P>What does get me irritated, is that its just the stuff she loves to soak up, and gives the kids little assignments when they come to my house.<P>It was just a weak moment, generated by the X being so sweet to me at pickup, and her not knowing what she claimed to about kids grades, and that was my whole argument to her why much less than 50-50 time wouldn't be such a good idea.<P>it was just a weak moment, and i will apologize when i see her next.<P>gggggrrrrrrrrrrrr! she still gets under my skin because her innate parenting skills are just pathetic, using guilt and any excuse to justify what she wants.<P>sorry, guys, and thanks willbok, and yes i do sit them down each time they come and each night when they go to bed.<P>and it would be nice for the X to support the the kids coming with me at my pickup, meaning, helping them get going, telling them to have fun with Dad, etc. most times she just delays giving them up, sitting and making out with the 8 yo d. until i encourage some movement from them.<P>ggggggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!<P>WIFTT

WIFTT,<P>You wrote:<P>"and it would be nice for the X to support the the kids coming with me at my pickup, meaning, helping them get going, telling them to have fun with Dad, etc."<P>Communicate this to your x in person during a settled moment without the kids "right there". Yes, you could get your "hand chewed" by being up front with her but I think it would be worth a try if you conveyed your sincerity on the subject. At least you'll know you asked her to help with this and maybe some of the other things that concern you. At least you'll know you've tried.<P>Ragamuffin<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Ragamuffin (edited December 17, 2000).]