Two weeks ago on a pickup of the kids for "my night" i said i would be home between 5:15 and 5:30. Clear, although I spoke to 11 yo s. so the return message was "if you arrive at 5:30 we will be here, if you arrive at 5:45 will be at the gymn" Ok, so I get to the house at 5:30, and the X says, "Well, you can't take them until 5:45 because they have friends over, and i can't take the friend home until the friend's mom get home." She said that the 11 yo s good the message wrong. OK, so i sit in the car, and when I go to leave, the X says, "I have a solution, I won't let the kids invite friends over to play on your nights to pick them up."<BR>I agreed, sounds like a good plan and she sounded sincere.<P>Sunday, I call her and ask her if i can have some of our extra lights and ornaments. she said that would be fine, and that she and the kids would pick them out and then they could put them on my tree tonight. Most of the ornaments are her family's hand me downs, like most of the furniture and stuff we had anyway.<P>Tonight is my night, and she calls me up to say that she blew it, that she allowed 11 yo son to arrange a friend to come over, with the excuse that its a different friend. I asked her if she could change the play date and if i could pick up the kids a little early to decorate the tree with the kids and the ornaments.<P>Then she started on the attack in that i really must have have a problem with who the friend is, and I responded no, you agreed to not have friends over on my night. Then I asked her to please try to arrange a different day, and she said it was difficult with all the bus schedules. Now remember, she is on vacation for three weeks, starting last thursday. and the bus is the same time every day.<P>Her only legal defense, and granted it is valid, that she had us put in the agreement that any changes, such as early pickup would require a 24 hour notice for her to get prepared. (She originally wanted a 48 hour notice if i was to pick the kids up after school instead of after work.) <P>So she threw that back in my face, which is totally legal, and so now, again, I asked her is she could change the arrangements and if i could pick up the kids 1 to 1 1/2 hours earlier. She was pissed, but agreed. Of course, now how does Dad look in the eyes of 11 yo son? <P>Now all i did was ask, and all she did was admit to making a mistake, that she proposed a soltuion for. Under NORMAL, MARRIED situations, i would be accepting of her mistakes, but now, i am not as accepting when it makes my life more difficult. And when i see it as less of a mistake and more of less time for me with the kids.<P>Please, I need some feedback here, i wasn't disrespectful when she threw her tantrum, i held my breath and you could hear a little frustration, but not disrespect.<P>I did not demand, i merely held my ground, and said "I would appreciate it if you can change the play date." she pissily agreed.<P>And yes, I will always give her 24 hour notice, but my suspicion is that she is pissed that i took the kids shopping to help them buy presents for her, and I did it to still help them learn to buy presents. they had said that they did not have any presents for mom, except one that the FIL bought for her and told the kids to give it to the X. <P>When 11 yo old son and I discussed presents, could not think of anything to give X, he went and asked her on the phone Sunday night, even though I told him that does not practice how to think about someone to get a present for them. (it took me 41 years to figure it out right, so i am starting early for him to get the hang of it.) So she said to him that she didn't want any presents. So then she said she would like a flower. so he and i talked some more, and I said we will go shopping again, and gave him many more suggestions to think about, but if he wants to get her a flower I will.<P>I did not spend much, and I got a small $ present for the mother of my kids. and had a great time shopping with my 8 yo d.<P><BR>BTW, she was the one that said we have a problem with the POJA. and except for a handful of pickups, 1 by an hour, the other couple by 15 minutes, (traffic and I call) I have not been late in six months.<P>The last time she threw a fit like this was when i my IL's were babysitting, and I talked nicely to them, asking about MIL, the summer, retirement, small talk. The next morning she called me up over nothing to start a fight.<P>so, is it a valid conclusion that if i am nice or just pleasant, she has a problem with me? maybe because i am not living up to the image she painted of me to everyone else? as her reason for the D? <P>Please, tell me, is it me? am I crazy?<BR>what am i doing wrong? HELP!<P>WIFTT<BR>

Who knows!<P>I maintain that I am unable to die right in my x's opinion. Honestly, it wouldn't matter how it happened - cancer, car wreck, heart attack, back dive with 3 1/2 twists and 2 1/2 revolutions in an inverted pike position of the tallest building in Nashville - it wouldn't suit him.<P>So maybe this woman has a case of permanent PMS. Maybe she's mad at you for breathing. Maybe she is mad at herself for what she has done to the family. Maybe there is something about your tone of voice, choice of words, that is driving her crazy.<P>Seems to me that some people's goal in life is to make other people crazy. Especially their x.<P>I know it's a pain in the neck but you may need to humor her. At least for a while. Whatever the agreement says, it looks like you're going to have to follow it for the time being. Can you handle communications with her, such as schedule changes, in writing or by e-mail? Pain in the neck, I know. But the less I see my x, the better we get along.

Cinderella,<P>Your ex reminds me of my stbx! LOL LOL<BR>And I don't see him or speak to him so we get along perfectly! <P>The last time I spoke to him, he talked down to me like I'm less than intelligent! I don't think so! He still tries to maintain some control over me and then gets angry cause it doesn't work. Too bad!!!<P>Tom,<P>You just may have to humor her for now. Go by the agreement completely. I agree that I don't think it's anything in particular that you've done. She just needs to be angry and will find anyway to achieve that! <P>Good luck,<BR>Mitzi <BR>

...maybe she got son's/her grade on the book report?...<P> : )

Don't sweat any of it. Keep the kids in mind first, and if anything that happens while you're doing that seems to offend the EX, that's her problem alone. The fun part is the kids will make their own judgments, if not now, then in good time ... you needn't go out of your way to get her approval on their account.

I am not trying to judge here, but it sounds like you and your ex need to put your differences aside and talk about what is best for the kids. She is royally annoyed with you and you find her just as annoying. It sounds like the kids are getting caught in the crossfire. <P>An eleven year old could care less about pick up times and whether or not you are fifteen minutes early or late...especially if they have friends over. <P>How about a compromise? Why not let the friend come over with your two kids and make the decorating of the tree a little celebration. You'll be the good guy and you just may all have a good time. If you and your ex are constantly at each other's throat and take issue with every single thing, the kids aren't going to want to be around either one of you. <P><BR>

Tom,<P>Sorry this is such a novel, but I'm going to respond to all three of your posts in this one response. You need to stay focused on the long term goal and the task at hand, and not allow either the kids or the stbx to derail you from your goal. It's hard, I know, but try to cling to the fact that setting boundaries and having consequences is best for your children. <P>The other thing that got lost in the hub-bub of the car and the gas company and no heat is the FUN. Normally you are a very fun, funny, playful person--and to be honest, I bet the sting of the divorce agreement had something to do with temporarily losing your joy of life. <P>If you and your stbx agreed that you should have the kids for New Years, then you have them for New Years. Here's the trick, though. Let everyone know ahead of time that you intend to have them for New Years, and you intend to do something fun with them. Don't appear to be the meany to her or the kids by preventing them from having doing some cool thing. Okay, that's another paragraph.<P>I have given this considerable thought, and what your wife is doing is basically not upholding what she agreed to. Also, she is using manipulation and every trick she knows in the book to keep you and the kids apart--if not physically apart, then emotionally separated. You and she have talked about Alex getting some more new friends, so she finally arranges to have a new friend come over to play on a day that she knew damn well was "your day". This puts you in a NO WIN situation: if you agree to it, you lose your time with your son, but if you disagree, you look mean to your son. To add salt to the wound, she wins BOTH WAYS: if you agree, she gets more time with the son, and if you disagree, she gets to be the sympathetic mom. In every way possible, she is trying to keep you from your kids, and that is not right, morally or "parently". In the end, I believe that this is the way she is--and also why she is a soon to be X!--and since she is not in any kind of therapy to change and grow (that I know of), this is probably the way she will continue to be. So, within yourself start to expect this kind of manipulation, because it's going to happen. I'm sure you WANT her to prepare the kids for their visit with you and be cooperative and just relinquish them congenially. Well, Tom, that is not reality. She is probably going to pull this manipulative crap all along the way, so expect it, prepare for it, plan on it, and accept that it's a fact. It's a ****ty fact, but it's a fact. <P>Therefore, using that logic, you need to be true to yourself and your children--not to her. I don't mean to be mean, but one of the hardest things for me to do for myself was to start to think of my stbx as "the enemy" in some instances. Not that I'm trying to engage in a war, because that would be counterproductive, but rather, that he is no longer my loved-one, and he does not have MY best interests at heart. Tom, I'm sorry to have to say this, but she does not have your best interests at heart either. In this custody situation, she is the enemy, and that sucks. So, as you prepare the household rules for your house, prepare some rules for shared custody too--things you would request/demand regarding: 1) Picking up (start getting the kids ready 1/2 hour before you are due to arrive and you will do the same), 2) Dropping off (on time, as agreed, in fairly good order and organization), 3) Sharing school info (instead of one parent folder, buy another and ask the teacher for two sheets of paper that need to go home). You get the drift. You are smart enough to realize that some of this is just working out the kinks of a new situation, but a LOT of it is direct manipulation, so see it for what it is, and deal with it.<P>Last, but not least, Tom, I'm very seriously telling you, as a friend who cares about you, to stop fussing. If you want your son to have new friends, and he invited the kid over to play, then play with the two boys when you go to pick the kids up. Ignore the X, join in the fun, and be your fun-funny-joyful-silly self. Let the children be children and don't let the X get to you like this. Gosh, I should listen to my own advice!! Most important of all, take care of yourself, because you won't survive these stressful times with your X without being in your best health physically, mentally and emotionally.<P>{{{{{{{{{{Tom}}}}}}}}}}<P>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

Three point play for CJ and a boot in the bummy for Tom's dipwad x.

Hip hip hooray for her majesty, the princess!<P>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

(Just figured out your name was Tom. Duh.) <P>Sounds like a black hole. A fuss pot till the end, no amount of accomodating will satisfy her. I agree with CJ; if you look at her as someone who is the "enemy" then you will be more self protective and protective of your children. It sucks that you even have to negotiate in such a fashion with a manipulator, but keep in mind that when people are wishy washy and/or painfully unaccomodating, they are often doing it to control. She probably enjoys the rise she gets out of you. You are not in her life catering to her moods anymore, so she has to work it in in her own way. Unfortunately, using the kids. Also, your kindness and patience is frustrating because she sounds like she has a role set out for you in her mind. Her expectations are one thing and you throw her a curve ball. She doesn't like it. Again, you are usurping her control. It really is a no win situation. No wonder plan A didn't work with her. <P>By the way, speaking as an English teacher, maybe you should help your son with his homework instead.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gsd:<BR><B>A fuss pot till the end, no amount of accomodating will satisfy her. I agree with CJ; if you look at her as someone who is the "enemy" then you will be more self protective and protective of your children. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Seriously, sounds like perhaps he should get a book on "dealing with difficult people". From the less charitable perspective, there comes a point when dealing with an unreasonable person that you begin to want to do the minimum necessary to get them upset, then tell them they're upset over nothing (knowing that will only make them more upset). This is either a form of training the other person, or is sadism akin to pulling the wings off flies. I'm not sure which. <P>

Tom,<BR>I run into this in reverse. My kids want to go to a friends for an overnight when they are supposed to go to their mothers the next day. <P>I alway say no, that they are to go to their mothers the next day. I don't think it would be fair for her to have to run all over the county picking up the kids. They usually call her and get her permission, then I let them know.<P>I think your s is old enough to understand that you are coming over at whatever o'clock and be ready to go. I know this is a problme here because my kids don't like going over either and they usually are not ready to go.<P>Just keep communicating with the kids, make sure they understand when you are coming to get them. <P>I was going to tell you to just have fun with the kids, but then you would be accused of being the Disney Land dad. I don't think I would be a very good NCP, I would be the Disney Land type.<P>There has to be a middle ground in there somewhere, right? RIGHT?<P>Hang in !<P>Bob

CJ, just an extra special thanks for getting me back on track. I lost perspective there for a moment, and she does piss me off to no end. So the kids and I had a great night, much better than the average, and i had dinner earlier, which is helpful, and activities to do as a family. finish the christmas tree. wrap presents.<P>much more relaxed. so i sent the big guy to his room once, and that pretty much solved it for the rest of the evening. and he was surprised, but i had warned him, and he wasn't remembering. but after that, ta dah!<P>We had a great time.<P>Then i talked with the x, was respectful, firm, but did not respond to her usual threat that if that's what you want, we go back to mediation because I don't agree with it. So she does want to be flexible, and so do i. we are small flexible, although with an exxagerator, (hhhmm, interesting spelling!) it really is talking to a person in warpville. I said no problem going with the agreement, and then she wanted to change the agreement. and then she said she was willing to take me back to court for being 15 minutes late ocassionally. i told her she was going to spend $150 per hour for a couple of 15 minutes? she had some lame reason, and at that point the cheshire cat appeared next to me.<P>Anyway, she was at it again, but i held my ground, for the future, but gave her the option of having what she wanted this week.<P>so right now, i have to focus inward, where at work i focus outward, and life is better again.<P><B> Thanks CJ<P>here's a squeeze hug so hard your smaller!<P>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{cj))))))))))))))))))<BR></B><P>WIFTT

<BR>It doesn't sound to me like YOU did anything wrong...but that she forgot the agreement<BR>and was trying to put the blame on you..<BR>not wanting to except her own fault in what<BR>she did...My stbx is great at that..trying to shift the screw up off himself and blast me for something else..that has nothing to do w/<BR>what we were talking about..<P>exp..I was discussing somethings about how<BR>our oldest daughter is afraid to talk to him because she's afraid he'll start putting holes in the walls again....and two sentences into the conversation he was saying that the kids don't like some of YOUR friends..and they won't tell you..(they have told me) but I had to keep him on topic..or it would have been all my fault...and I would have felt guilty for something..<P><BR>So don't let her get to you...you could try <BR>and see if your kids friends could come stay <BR>over at your house sometimes too..that way the kids feel like its really a home for them..

I didn't read all the replies but speaking from experience.....<P>I know i wasn't that flexible with my ex i the beginning because i resented the fact he got to play the good time parent and i looked like the bad one. I did 90% of the childcare and now i feel like he gets to reap the rewards.<P>Our child is younger.<P>I also know my ex wasn't the greatest at picking her up in the second half of our separation.<P>So we both manipulated and abused her.<P>BUT the only things i can think to suggest is that you check into what your child is thinking. Maybe different times or days is what your child is looking at? The other thing let him/her know that a play date at your house is cool too.<P>Good luck.

Tom,<P>I replied to this once and it must not have posted for some reason. Sorry this is late.<P>I didn't get to read all the replies because I have only a moment, but I noticed that the "nicer" I am with the ex, the more 'pissy' he gets.<P>If I'm negative, he throws that on me too. <P>SO I now try to have no emotion at all when we talk over the kids. He can't read me and he also can't push my buttons. <P>Also, the guidelines are that, guidelines. We should be able to compromise every so often and if its a problem, then we need to go back and change the legal guidelines. <P>Thats about where I am now.<P>I think, no matter what, its never going to be easy and we're just never going to win or have the upper hand we deserve.<P>Wishing you a better New Year ahead,<BR>Dana<BR>

WIFTT,<BR>You poor thing. It's posts like yours that make me glad I don't have kids. I have a lot of respect for parents. wiftt, I've read many of your posts, and it saddens me that your X is being petty. <P>I wonder if a spinoff of the love bank principle could be crafted here? How about the notion of a flexibility bank? Obviously, flexibility is an attribute of value. You seem perfectly willing to be flexible. Your X is already making flexibility withdrawals. There will come a day when your X will desire some flexibility. At this rate, you're not going to feel very flexible. <P>I visualize the flexibility bank as a nerf ball. It can be smooshed into the size of a golf ball and immediately resume its previous shape and size in a moment. Placing a drop of glue on the nerf ball is the equivalent of a withdrawal. With each drop, the flexibility diminishes. Continuous withdrawals over time will cause the ball to crust over completely and lose its ability to change shapes. <P>I realize I'm out of my league here since this involves kids, but it seems to me your X needs to realize that her actions will create consequences. I'm thinking of things I read in the book called Boundaries in Marriage. If I were in your shoes, I would think of a nice way to say that I attach a tremendously high value to flexibility and that my ability to be flexible is proportionate to the amount of flexibility I receive. I would have similar statements to make about honoring commitments. Your X said no friends visiting on your days. She dishonored her own word. Shame on her. I hope you can think of a nonchalent, nonthreatening, nonsarcastic way of saying something that will stop her behavior dead in its tracks.