We often make assumptions about the other person in that they are selfish, needy, manipulative, evil, etc. I suspect that in the majority of cases that may very well be true.<P>But does anyone know of an instance where the other woman or man had an affair with one who was married and was actually decent for the most part except for the deceit.<P>I often imagine the other woman who was responsible for the breakup of my marriage has all the undesirable qualities mentioned in the first paragraph. But sometimes I do wonder could she actually be someone who got caught up in something because she had some sadness in her own life. (I know for a fact that she did.) <P>If the timing were right, could I possibly do the same thing in desperation because I could not get the emotional support I needed. I sympathize in that she had some problems, but dislike the fact that she contributed to the breakup of my family.<P>Thanks for reading.<P>Martha<P>

There are some days when I see a good side to OW. She is good to my kids. My ex probably wasn't very honest with her in the beginning. Matter of fact I know he wasn't, because he and I had some "intimate moments" that she probably didn't know of.<P>Some are manipulative. Mine knew that ex was married though and still dated him after he left us on xmas day. What does that really say about her character? Selfish if you ask me, but sometimes, she is "ok".<P>I'm not going to call her my friend though! The only other thing is like my counselor said, OW did not have vows with us BS. The WS did though and is the one we have to blame. The OP really is just another factor to a divorce, but if the marriage were perfect and we were perfect, our spouse wouldn't have strayed either. Sad fact and it hurts, but really when you are thinking about it honestly, you realize that we all have to take some blame.<BR>

DanaB,<P>I totally disagree with this statement: "The OP really is just another factor to a divorce, but if the marriage were perfect and we were perfect, our spouse wouldn't have strayed either." I don't care what the your counselor told you.<P>First of all, nobody is perfect. Second of all, marriages are not perfect. Third of all, we (the BSs) cannot compete against the fantasy that our WSs have conjured up in their heads. Forth of all, people have affairs for numerous reasons. My stbx said that "something is missing". (like she is having a MLC) <P>I will totally take responsibility for my part in the divorce; however, I will not take any responsibility for her affair. Affairs are all about the people having them. As I'm not, I take zero responsibility.<P>To blame the BS is like blaming the victim of a mugging. It's like telling them that they should have been more careful, that they should have been prepared, that they should have done any number of things. The fact is, the mugger (the WS) is the one to blame for the affair. Period. End of story.<P>Kevin

I do not believe that you can be decent and deceitful simultaneously. Once you become deceitful you are no longer decent. It would be possible to become decent again once you stopped being deceitful, if you were then remorseful.<P>I disagree that vows have much, if anything, to do with it. I did not vow not to steal my neighbors car, either, but that doesn't make doing so any less wrong. Having an affair with a married person is just as wrong as what the WS is doing. Adultery is adultery. <P>When my H's affair first started, long before I knew about it, I thought something seemed wrong. He said the problem was about him, not about me. That may have been one of the last truthful things he said.

I know more than I should about my OW(my h was under the false assumption that I'm computer illiterate and with that assumption I was able to read nearly 50 pieces of correspondence between them), she wrote to me at one point swearing up and down that she would piss off and that she was so sorry and never meant to hurt anyone and then the next day was wooing my h again. <BR> I also found a letter dated the day after my h made a "final" decision to come home from her begging him to leave m and promising him the moon if he did.<BR> I know that she has major sexual hang-ups, anxiety problems and a huge dose of neediness. She's manipulative, greedy, selfish, self absorbed and arrogant.<BR> All in all, while my h's OW may "look" good, personality wise she's a disaster in the making. It takes a special kind of obsessive to keep persuing a married man after he's told you he wants to end it. I feel for my h when he finally tries to dump this looney-tune.

People are not perfect and marriage isn't either. I think when two people are in a marriage together and one of those individuals is unhappy to the point of where they feel they have exhausted all of their resources to make things better, I think they become more vulnerable to people who show them emotional needs which have been lacking in their own relationship. I think that person probably doesn't want to cheat or mess up their marriage because they are probably the ones who have tried so hard to keep things together. But I do think sometimes they get caught up in looking out for themselves rather than focus on the two of them anymore. For many people, I don't think it is something they intentionally do, I think there is a breakdown in the marriage and if someone comes along at the right point in this mess it is all entirely possible that what they didn't want to happen will happen. Yes, you could say that you should be stronger and say no. But I don't think it is as cut and dry as that. Somethings develop overtime and we never know how bad things really are for them. I don't think it is an excuse, but merely an explanation for why this might happen. Everyone has different definitions of when things are good in marriage and when things aren't, the best thing you can do is keep open communication and really listen to your spouse. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Martha642:<BR><B>We often make assumptions about the other person in that they are selfish, needy, manipulative, evil, etc. I suspect that in the majority of cases that may very well be true.<P>But does anyone know of an instance where the other woman or man had an affair with one who was married and was actually decent for the most part except for the deceit.<P>I often imagine the other woman who was responsible for the breakup of my marriage has all the undesirable qualities mentioned in the first paragraph. But sometimes I do wonder could she actually be someone who got caught up in something because she had some sadness in her own life. (I know for a fact that she did.) <P>If the timing were right, could I possibly do the same thing in desperation because I could not get the emotional support I needed. I sympathize in that she had some problems, but dislike the fact that she contributed to the breakup of my family.<P>Thanks for reading.<P>Martha<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

I think it depends on how the A got started. For those trolling on the internet, those setting themselves up in pickup places, those manipulating events to arrange for that coincidental/chance meeting, the answer is: NO!!!! These are not good persons in any sort of way. Whatever good qualities they may possess (like kind to animals, nice to their parents, etc.) they are still bad. Their bad acts nullify their good acts. <P>Look a mass murderer may have loved his mother and been kind to cats, but he still killed innocent people. Does the fact that he is kind to his mom and good with cats exempt him from punishment of killing innocent people? Are the victim's families suppose to only look at his/her good qualities and overlook the gross wrong? No. You commit the dirty deed, you should pay the price. One good deed may deserve another but it does not exempt one from punishment or taking responsibility. <P>All Ws's and OP's of this world are guilty as sin for the wrong they committed not just to the BS's but to their family and all who are affected. Even those of us here, while we are not relatives, we feel the hurt by the posting of stories here on this board so the OPs in others lives even affect strangers (like us). <P>What I will accept is true repentance. There are some OP's that are OPs and WS's or even just Ops (unmarried) that have truly repented. This means giving up their selfish state of mind, correcting their attitude, working to better themselves and staying away from anything that leads to an A. A reformed OP? It is possible. What are the odds? Depends on the attitude. I think many who do this over and over again are not sorry for breaking up families. Certainly the one that I deal with is not sorry. Oh yea, she tells WS that she will never get involved with a married man again because she does not like how much I get in her face (really haven't done to much, would like to do more but being cautious). However, that has not stopped her from actively persuing H. He is still married. So her words are no longer valid. Her statement carries no weight. Basically she is a pathological liar making statements that she does not follow up on. <P>Would I believe someone like that who tries to apologize to me? No. There would need to be acts of repentance visibly seen by all. This woman has no creditability at this time and until she can provide crediable proof, her words mean nothing. <P>So that is my take on the OP. It really depends on them, their attitude and how they act. <P>L.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Martha642:<BR><B>We often make assumptions about the other person in that they are selfish, needy, manipulative, evil, etc. I suspect that in the majority of cases that may very well be true.<P>But does anyone know of an instance where the other woman or man had an affair with one who was married and was actually decent for the most part except for the deceit.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hi <B>Martha</B>,<P>Once upon a time, I too wrote something like this... and it made it on to the "Notable Threads" list. <P>Here's the link... it was on the "old" Marriage Builders...I think you might find it interesting...<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/000677.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/000677.html</A> <P>I actually agree with <B>Nellie</B> though... I don't think that decency and deceit can live in the body/soul at the same time. That doesn't mean that the OP is "fundamentally" (sp?) bad... but it does mean that AT THE MOMENT OF DECEPTION they are "wrong" and yes, "bad"...<P>Let me know what you think...<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

I have to agree with what has been written so far. Marriages are not perfect, I don't think you can find anyone that has been married for any length of time that would say that things have always been great. But, when we get married we do vow that we will be there through the good times and the <I>bad</I>. Our WS don't seem to take those vows literally. There were good times and bad times in my marriage, but I always stayed faithful. I took my vows literally.<P>As far as the OM, I wouldn't say that he is necessarily a bad person. He is nice to my kids, he makes a lot of money, and he fairly likeable person (by everyone but myself of course). But on the other hand he does not have the things that I have. I am the father of my kids, and he will never be able to replace me. I would have given my STBX the world if I could, but I don't think he will. <P>I, too, know a lot more about the other man than I really wanted to know. He is a co-worker of a friend, and we had even invited him to go hunting with us before all this started. When I first met him, I really liked him. I thought he was a stand up guy. Now my opinion of him and my STBX has dropped dramatically. As my brother puts it, I wouldn't p**s on his face if it were on fire! <P>Griz

About the WS trying to make the marriage work:<P> My stbx never breathed a word about how serious his problems were until the affair had already kicked into overdrive and it basically became a me or her contest.<BR> My husband hates conflict on any level, especcially with women. He grew up with mother that was emotionally distant and neglectful along with being clinically depressed. His mother has been married and divorced 9 times and with the expception of her first marriage each one was for financial gain. She swings wildly between being coldly aloof and widly emotional and depressed.<BR> Throughout our marriage I lived with the fallout from this, in our home tears were not allowed. If I cried he would become very hostile. My husband only knows anger and happiness, no other emotion filters through. When he began having problems with our marriage he merely withdrew and any attempt on my part to coax the problem from him was met with resistance. He built a wall around himself for a couple of months and then dropped the bomb, sheltered by the fact that he had stripped away most of his feelings for me. My hurt meant nothing because he had managed to make me into nothing in his eyes.<BR> This is what I had to work with. I wasn't given a chance to rectify our problems because they were kept from me. He went from hot to cold in a matter of days. I can almost pinpoint the day when he made the decision to "leave".<BR> This is why I am so angry at my stbx. What he did was highly unfair. Something that important should have been discussed but instead he tried to fix the problems himself and never clued me in. He chose the coward's way out.<BR> I sympathize with him somewhat, I'm sure guilt is beginging to take it's toll. But when it comes to the break up of this marriage I take no responsibilty. I tried and he refused, it takes two to work on a relationship and my h couldn't have the balls to let me in on things and try to make it better.

My comment was not to be stated as a fact, but my opinion, I said "if" we were perfect and our marriages were perfect . There is no perfect marriage, and people are not perfect. When I first came here, I thought the affair was all my WS fault, and all the OW fault. Then I took a look at the total picture, not just the few facts around the discovery of the affair. I found that there were signs I missed, and I thought I was meeting needs of my H, but in fact met needs that were important to be met for me, and those needs were different then H. So I spent all my time meeting the wrong needs which was a waste.<P>If its true that as soon as one of the needs go unmet, an affair can happen, then certainly I have to take some blame in not doing something right along the way.<P>Maybe the OW in my case is just good at making me think she's ok, maybe she really is manipulative , even with me. I try not to spend too much time thinking about her though.<P>Also, there are a few "WS" here on the board who I think are actually really decent people and they have taken time to try to explain to us what was going on in their life that lead up to the affair. <P>Every marriage, affair and divorce have a total different set of circumstances though and really for us to compare too closely doesn't make much sense either. I think I'm doing ok 16 months after my H left me on xmas day . I'd like to be doing a lot better, but at least I'm not in a worse place either.<BR>Dana<BR>

Martha642<BR>I have wondered similar things to what you stated. I know alot about the OW because my husband and I had done business with her and my husband had become a good friend to her and had shared with me some of her problems.<P>He became such a good friend to her and in doing so, became cruel, uncaring, insensitive, unattentive, etc. to me-his wife. One day, long after the outing of the affair, divorce already filed, I felt the need to call her. My husband and I were still living together and he was out of town. So I knew we could talk. We ended up talking the whole night. I wanted her to know a little bit about me, something I am sure she didn't want to face. <P>I read to her, a few excerpts from a letter I wrote but never mailed. I wanted to know how she, after going through this sort of pain herself, could knowingly inflict it on someone (anyone) else. I learned from her, the extent my husband went to in order to win her over (it almost killed me). In listening to her, I tried putting myself in her position, and asked myself if I would be able to resist????????<BR>I try to not use the phrase "I would never", but in this case I will. I know that I would never, knowingly, inflict this sort of pain on anyone. I fall short in many ways in trying to be as upstanding a person I can be (we are not perfect). I would have said this even before going through this hell.<P>I talked with the OW quite a few more times. One good thing that came out of these conversations, is the fact that I don't hate her. I don't talk to her anymore for a few reasons, one of them being that she and my STBXH are blissfully together.<P>I do wonder how people can be so cruel, but that is their choice. That is it, we all make choices in life and those choices determine our character. <P>With all my insecurities, I'll give me this, I am a woman of character!<P>Petrie<P><p>[This message has been edited by REJECTED (edited April 09, 2001).]

(((PETRIE)))<P>I haven't had that kind of conversation with my OW but I give you a ton of credit for doing that. That was what I meant in one of my earlier comments, that we don't really know what our H said to OW in the first place. Sometimes they even paint us Wives out to be this mean horrible person they can't live with at a time when we had no clue of an affair. Before my H left, we were having the best relationship in ten years for a short while there, so that would not have been the time I would expect him to be opening up to someone else.<P>Hugs Dana<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Martha642:<BR><B><BR>But does anyone know of an instance where the other woman or man had an affair with one who was married and was actually decent for the most part except for the deceit.<BR>Martha<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>When our problems first really started, I was the one that had the affair. Complete with my husband's knowledge and participation ---- so the courts say that it wasn't really an affair.<P>If I had to go and have an affair, at least it was with someone good (not like the three-times engaged and dumped woman that stbxh seeing). <P>He'd never had a really serious relationship. He'd only been with one other woman. Validictorian of his HS class. National Merit finalist. Honors student in college. Black Belt in martial arts. He wanted to go into theological studies and become a minister. He even filled in as a substitute minister while our relationship was going on.<P>Today he is married and has a son. I believe he still occasionally substitutes as a minister. And although he'd still like to go to theological school, his family comes first.<P>I still have a lot of respect for the man. His wife knows of what happened. And when I contacted him concerning the pending divorce, he said that he would do whatever was needed.....but he would only tell the truth of what he remembered.<P>This is the same man that told my husband, if at anytime the relationship between me and him became a problem, all my husband had to do was say the word and it was over. That's pretty much what happened.<P>I know, the extra-marrital relationship was not right. It was a symptom of other problems.<P>But I think having the relationship with someone who is 'good' somehow has made the whole thing easier. We know that if he has to be deposed, he is going to be honest. It wasn't anything secretive; I think he truly wished for the relationship to be mutually constructive for all. I wouldn't be surprised if he thought he was somehow helping our relationship through a rough spot.<P>More importantly, I think we all learned that we are human and are in many ways captives of our emotions. If he does go on to be a minister and one of the couples in his church come to him with problems, he'll look at them with compassion rather than abhor their actions. He won't take a 'holier than thou' attitude with the sinner.<P>I know that all I asked of my now stbx was all that he asked of me back then ----- end the relationship and put the marriage back together.<P>And his friends that treated me so badly back then ----- they are the same friends that hid his current affair, and provided the secrecy for it to develop.<P>The person brought in for the affair has stayed true to BOTH of us. His 'friends', some of whom were in our wedding and promised to help us to uphold our vows, encouraged his affair. <P>What I did was not hidden from him and even involved him.<BR>What he has done was done in secret. He lied to his family, our pastor, and our marriage counselor.<P><BR>I have reached the point where I no longer trust him.<BR>I don't know if there is any love left for him. I don't really care if there is any left. (Which makes me want to cry.)<P>But I do know that I deserved to be treated better by him and by his friends. That I should have been placed before his friends. And I was not ---- that was why the first affair occurred.<P>If they want him so badly that they are willing to break up his marriage......and he thinks they are more important than his wife and family. They and he can have each other.<P>They'll never be able to provide him with the depth of relationship that I was wanting to have with him. (Maybe that was the problem.....he was scared to go there.)<P>~Amy

Thanks to all who have replied to my original post. I have found things out about the "OW" over 5 years. It is helping in my "healing." When I knew nothing about her, (date of finding out about the affair-11-17-96), I was completely devastated and heartbroken, separting 12-31-97 and finally divorcing 5-1-2000.<P>I had mentioned about two months ago that this woman was a school bus driver who accidently ran over a small child and killed him. I discovered this from newspaper archives online and told my ex that I had found this out. I was raked over the coals by a couple of people on this board for doing so. <P>She has lost one parent about 7 years before the accident and the other 3 years afterward. My ex had told me that her husband paid no attention to her. I suspect that this accident was the source of most of her problems.<P>My ex was very anxious about some problems at work and was suffering from some high blood pressure symptoms. He was given medication which I'm sure didn't help our situation any. So I imagine they "fell in lust" or whatever. <P>Knowing that this terrible accident happend sheds more light on what maybe went wrong. And I'm coming to terms with it.<P>I must say that I have become somewhat selfish as to my own needs at age 58. I've bought lots of new clothes, bought a treadmill and joined a ski club although I don't ski. In March I went with the ski group to Innsbruck, Austria where we stayed a week and taking trips to such wonderful places as Salzburg, Ludwig's Castle, Venice and St. Moritz.<P>Next year, I'm planning on going to Rome.<P>Like the rest of you, I've taken plenty to wild rides on the roller coaster of emotion, but I'm hanging in there.<P>Who knows what kind of person she is? I wonder if she really understands the "prize" she thinks she's getting. They're still not married.<P>Thanks again!<P>Martha