Been married 27 years, 3 kids are raised, wife has been emotionally distant for most of that time. Don't blame her, I am no doubt part of the problem, but tried hard to get her focused on the marriage to no avail. Her coping mechanism is anger and emotional abuse (not my diagnosis, that of every counsellor we have seen). My response was to finally shut down and just get the kids raised (last 10 years). She is not my best friend, I care about her, and her welfare, but I do not love her, nor want to grow old (well any older anyways) with her. She has repeatedly suggested we get divorced (for years), but she would never do it herself. So recently I agreed. She then said she didn't really mean it, loved me, just was a self-defeater and didn't know how to show me love, and was just all messed up. Anyways having never looked at another woman all that time, I recently made friends with another woman, and fell in love with her. Although my wife knew about her, I told her when first made friends (about 12 months ago, on-line), she was uninterested. Anyways the on-line friendship developed slowly but blossomed into phone calls. I don't really know how this happened, she is married too (in a similar relationship), we seem to be well-balanced ethical people and are quite distressed over our behaviour, but still the love will not be denied. She feels divorce is not an option and will just be lonely in her marriage forever. I have decided divorce is the only honorable (and emotionally honest) thing to do for me. Much to my surprise my wife immediately seemed to figure this all out (the OW), and was devastated. I didn't really think she cared, still don't really believe her and just figure she is scared of being abandoned. I won't abandon her, will support her forever, just don't want to be married and lonely with her. I am not a shallow person, it took me years to accept our marriage was a sham, and the OW just intensified the need to face that. I have little hope of marrying the OW and will not allow the affair to continue very long if she won't leave. I do not believe in trading one spouse for another anyways. My wife wants me to stay and says she will change, yet still behaves the same way she always have. I truly think we are not good for each other in an intimate relationship, but could very well be ex-spouse friends. I am doing the reconcilliation stuff with her (she asked, I figured I owed her) but I just feel no interest in continuing the marriage. So now I am just a selfish person fixated on another woman, taken over by satan, or psychotic, as well as an uncaring jerk. So much for any interst in my feelings *sigh* the story of our marriage. Maybe I am just a normal person who realizes we never should have been married. The whole world seems to be consumed with fixing marriages, makes me feel defective, like I don't know my own heart. Is it ever ok to just come to understand you don't fit someone very well, don't want to work to make a bad marriage just tolerable, and would rather do the merciful thing and just end it? Perhaps be alone forever more, or maybe we each take the lessons we have learned and do a better job of selecting another mate (as well fixing our own personal issues)? <p>[This message has been edited by confusedin MI (edited April 18, 2001).]

Dear Confused:<P>I think you might get more responses to your story over on the General Questions II board. Please take the time to tell folks over there your story...your story is a familiar one, and there are several people over there who have been where you are at that could give you a great deal of insight to your questions.<P>I will say that I don't think you should make decisions about your marriage while you are in a relationship with someone else. It's my opinion that you should cut contact with the OW, and then decide what type of future you want for yourself and your wife.<P>I wish you luck.<P>--BR

Dear Confused:<BR>Your story is very similar to mine. I was married for 26 years and raised 3 kids. My ex-h was verbally abusive to the kids and me. Due to this, I withdrew emotionally, however not physically. After 22 years of marriage, I found out he had been having an affair for 2-1/2 years. I decided to try to salvage the marriage for the kids' sake. We went through counseling with two different therapists. While the affair stopped, the verbal abuse did not. After 3-1/2 years of walking that tightrope, one night he got somewhat physically abusive with one child and me. I immediately obtained a book which is titled something like "Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay". While reading it, there was never a moment in which I thought, "Aha! Now I know what to do!", but it helped me realize that he would never change the way he treated the kids and me, because he saw nothing wrong with it. Within two months, the kids and I had moved out and I had filed for divorce. I have never regretted it for a moment. <P>The difference in our stories is that I wasn't involved with anyone else.

Hi, Confused - welcome. I'm glad you're here. <P>Sorry to say this, Honey, but this is standard affair talk. Once I started reading, I could almost predict your next words.<P>Though your situation and your emotions FEEL unique to you and you are absolutely positive that you are seeing things clearly and no one else can possibly understand, you are pretty much textbook at this point. The same place that my H was and hundreds of other WS's who have passed through this place. If you'll search for some of the threads about "things our WS has said", you'll find every word on your post, spoken to almost every BS here. Wanna hear some of Robert's words to me?<P>"I care about you, Lori, I really do. I love you, but I'm not 'in love' with you."<BR>"I finally know what real love is. I didn't know before."<BR>"We never should have married - we weren't meant for each other, I've never really been happy with you, I have found my soulmate, the woman I was meant to love."<BR>"You've never really loved me, you just think you did."<BR>"I knew from the beginning it was a mistake and I was wrong for marrying you anyway."<BR>and my personal favorite....<BR>"you cannot imagine how many times I've wished there was an accident so that I could be released from these pits of hell."<P>And I thought our marriage was ok.....needed work, but ok.<P>Ok, so that's just a sampling. There's ton's more if you need them. Some of them are in your post.<P>Now, that I've gotten that part out of the way and sounded cold to your feelings, let me tell you this:<P>#1 - You are in love with this OW and I'm not even gonna pretend that you aren't. And I know it really hurts. Those feelings are real, as real as any you have ever had. As real as the feelings you had for your wife when you fell in love with her. That doesn't make them right nor does it make them permanent. These things don't "just happen". We set ourselves up for them to happen and we fail to protect our spouses and our marriage vows. You walked into this, Honey, knowing full well what you were doing, whether you're ready to admit to it or not. Every step into the next level was a conscious decision. Nothing just blossumed, it was tended, it was nourished. That's the only way anything grows.<P>#2 - you were most certainly not given the marriage you deserve for the past 23 years. I'm sorry for that. You deserve more than that. It's happened to so many of us. Spouses fall in love (and you will admit one day, if not today, there was a time when you loved your wife, not just "cared" for her) and then we forget to protect and nourish that love. I would be willing to wager that you wife wasn't getting the marriage she deserved either. It usually works that way. Living that way for so many years was very painful for you and very unfair. I am truly sorry.<P>But, here you are, with a devastated wife, a marriage that's hanging by a thread and assisting a woman you have fallen in love with in committing adultry and making herself even more miserable. Not to mention that this has complicated your life and increased your pain and longing. Now, question is, what are you gonna do about it? If you think for one minute that it's fair to make this sort of decision while pining away for someone else, it's time to think again. "Doing the reconciliation stuff" with no interest in the marriage (which you WON'T have while you're in love with OW) ain't gonna cut it. You've set it up for failure before it even starts and that's not fair to you or to her.<P>You know, if it were completely hopeless, you'd have left LONG before there was an OW......<P>Look, you're not a shallow or bad person. You seem like a pretty decent guy. You've been missing a lot over a lot of years and it hurt and you simply found a way to get it. Romanticize it any way that you want to, that's the bottom line. You have a decision to make. The easy thing to do would be to leave. End this marriage without giving it the chance it deserves to rekindle. Or end the inappropriate romance, go through the withdrawal, learn the things you need to know, do the REAL work with your heart and soul in it and see what REALLY is there. If you loved this woman once ( and you did) you can love her again. And she can get past her stuff too. She may not be acting differently b/c she simply doesn't know HOW. And I tell you something, the pain she is going through faced with this infidelity is something you can only imagine. There are posts here that describe it better, but I tell you, I have never, ever in my entire life felt the way I did when it happened to me. I have never hurt so much. I've lost loved ones, I've been raped and NOTHING compares to this pain - NOTHING! People attempt suicide over this stuff. So you're in essence asking her to change all her ways while facing one of the greatest traumas of her life. Think about it.<P>Now, you're facing a hard choice and a hard job - no matter what. Btw, my husband chose to leave. His OW, however, was available and waiting for him. They set up house, they opened joint bank accounts, he saw a lawyer about adopting her little one, they decided on the plans for their new home. She was welcomed into his family's homes and lives and was included in all holidays. "We only want you to be happy" they told him. I never bothered him. I called there 3 maybe 4 times in 7 months - once an emergency w/ our daughter, once 'cause I needed to talk to him and twice to return his calls. I respected their privacy and their life together. I loved him and wanted him to be happy. <P>Oh, now? He's home. Has been for more than a year and we're doing very well, thank you. He decided somewhere along the way that, if he really was the man he was so proud of being, he'd better make sure he gave the first time his "all" before moving on. (Yes, I'm sure the new romance had faded at that point.) But he wasn't sure he loved me, only sure that he needed to do what he SHOULD do. I'm his "sweetheart", his "dollbaby" , the "love of his life" once again. He says he's never been happier. He cannot believe the things he said and did. He says he's madly "in love" with me. We laugh - every day. We face this life together and it is wonderful. He says "we are blessed to be given this second chance with each other and I promise I will never take this for granted again." I love and respect him more than anything in the world. He did a big thing, coming home. It took strength and courage. I believe in him and I believe in us. It hasn't been easy, I'll grant you that. Hardest work I ever did - and the most worthwhile. Neither of us regrets it.<P>It doesn't happen that way for everyone, you know? You're here on the divorcing board for that reason. One of our members was divorced, his wife (who was the WS) remarried and THEN realized what she had done. They're getting back together. My brother is remarried after 10 years of being single. He dearly loves his wife and I adore her as well. His words to Robert "To this day, I look in the mirror and wonder what might have happened with me and S if I had done the right thing. I love M, but I should never have divorced S while I was having the affair. We may still be together today."<P>Think hard, Confused. This is one of the biggest decisions you will ever have to make and affects more lives than you can imagine - even those of your grown children. It does, you know. You cannot at this point even imagine. I wish you strength in whatever you decide to do. But know this, there IS hope, in seemingly hopeless marriages. It's been proven time and time again. The decision is yours.<P>Love and prayers,<P>Lori

I love you <B>Lori</B>! <P>Listen to her <B>confused</B>... so MUCH wisdom!<P>I know you're a guy -- and you probably didn't listen to Helen Reddy (who did, right? ) but I have taken the words "Yes, I am wise, but it's wisdom borne of pain" to heart.<P>I am here speaking from hindsight... about what I *should* have done and didn't do...<P>I didn't leave my ex-H for another man, (although I met and moved in with a man very soon afterward - another little thing I would have done differently) and I had every reason in the world to get a divorce (he had five affairs, I had one)... and I am with a wonderful man now who I love to pieces... but... as <B>Lori</B> says about her brother, I will always wonder what might have been had I just hung on a little longer. Now, maybe it would have ended the same, and yes, I did try for a pretty long time (it was a 20 yr. marriage)... but god, regrets... they suck, you know???<P>Just make sure this is REALLY want you want -- look into the future and see what you can -- and go to the mirror in the bathroom, get real close, look into your eyes -- can you live with what you see? That's the real question...<P>As for me -- finally, I *can* look into the mirror and say Hello to the woman I can believe it... but for years, I could not.<P>I don't want you to regret what might have been.<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck<p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited April 17, 2001).]

Don't know what to say to you. I wanted out of my marriage too and I also don't regret it.

Lostva said it exceptionally well - the fog allows you to justify absolutely everything you have chosen to do - but it is all conscious choice - not something that just "happens."<P>A man of honor who is truly unhappy in his marriage and decides to end it - ends it the same way he came into it - by himself...not with a new woman as an emotional crutch to lean on.<P>I don't mean to flame - I've just heard every justifcation imaginable for my stbx to destroy our 15 year marriage and the lives of our two kids - your words/explanation is classic, unoriginal, and full of fog.<P>Think about what the right thing to do is for the lifetime - not the feeling of the moment.<P>Lisa

Wow. I want to chime in from the male's perspective, but I don't think I could add anything to Lori's (lostva) post. Lori, very well stated. I just have a couple points:<P>confused,<BR>Take these words of wisdom from people who have been or are currently in a situation similar to yours. Know that just as we don't have all the answers, neither do you at this time. One common theme I am beginning to see in many (if not all) of the wayward spouses is that they now believe "love is all about themselves". It is not. Love is giving, its sharing, it is in being there for your spouse. If your attitude is "well I'll go through the motions of trying to fix my marriage for 'her' sake" then I say don't even bother. You will only be hurting your wife even worse. Now hold on, I'm not saying "don't try", I am only saying if you are going to try, then try your hardest - 110% to fix your marriage. Only then will any attempts to fix it be worthwhile.<P>And remember that just as you believe you fell "out of love" with your wife and "into love with this OW", there is no reason why you can't fall back "into love" WITH YOUR WIFE and "out of love" with the OW.<P>God Bless,<BR>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

You guys know I can't just STOP talking....<P>There are marriages that should end. I should have said that. This marriage with Robert is my second. <P>But, like Dr. Phil says, to end a marriage, you have to EARN your way out and long-suffering isn't earning. You have to turn every stone, investigate every avenue and try with all your heart before you have the right to leave. <P>You can't try with your heart elsewhere. It's not possible, it has never been possible and it will never be possible.<P>Ok, shutting up AGAIN. (Love you, too, NB!)<P>Lori

<BR> You also should make sure you aren't rewriting history in the face of this new "love" in your life. WS tend to do that(mine did, in spades) and it might be very easy to look back and poke in every crack and crevice to find things wrong with your marriage.<BR> You owe to yourself and your wife to break off this relationship with the OW before ending your marriage. Your most likely full of all kinds of heady romantic notions with this other person that is coloring your veiw of your marriage.<BR> Step back from the OW before you make any decisions.

Welcome to the marriage builders site. You received some great responses from some very wonderful people here at the forum who have experienced some of this from every angle.<P>I myself am a BS and I can't add much to the great advice you've been given, but I would also say that by what you've said, you are focusing very much on the OW right now. You mentioned you will not hang around "if" she continues her marriage. <P>I admit, a marriage that long with distance must not have been the best, but I think you owe it to your wife to try and work on the marriage before abandoning it. <P>If you do end the marriage, I would stay clear of OW for a while for you to clear your head. You will learn a lot here and make many new friends who are willing to share their experiences with you(great job lori and congratulations again). <P>Good luck,Dana<BR>

Thanks so much folks, I really appreciate the feedback. I remained kind of isolated for years, just figuring this was my lot in life. Got on on-line about 2 years ago and has been quite an experience to find out about other people and their lives. I posted here cause I did seek a reality check, I understand the intensity of such issues can make even the most self-assured person act rashly. I have been contemplating agreeing to divorce for about 2 years, the OW was not a factor, her recent appearance has just intensified the need to regain control of my life and my emotional well-being. It is fascinating (to me) that my "story" is so um....... well normal. I do indeed think maybe I have this all figured out and is kinda my unique stuff. I really shouldn't though, there is only a small number of variations humans will interract with maritally. <P>The advice about not making decisions while involved with another person are sound, and I would say the same to someone, and have. The problem is when it is now me, I don't know how not to be influenced by this experience, it is now a part of me, of who I am. Because of distance and her unwillingness to "hurt" her spouse, it seems the influence is minimal, I fully understand I may leave my marriage and be very much alone, but that is how it should be anyways, and actually I prefer having no gaurantees by her. In fact she is quite distressed I would leave my wife, we are both pretty committed Christians and have been well indoctrinated in marital absolutism. Strange part is it is our spouses who could now leave, we are the ones who have been unfaithful, although that is unclear too, there has been no infidelity. The thing is, even though I am sure it will sound stupid to some of you, we did so knowing we were bonding and would marry if it were possible. This is not fun and games. Is one reason I married my wife, felt committed cause of sex, even though I was not feeling in love with her after a stormy 5 year relationship. Figured somehow it would work. I was wrong.<P>Emma....thx, the ow is a very recent development, more of a consequence, my story is exactly like yours. When do you finally say enuf is enuf, versus those who suggest anything can be fixed, how long do you try, and so forth.<P>Lori...I have said everything you suggested, almost word for word, kinda scarey (well except for the accident one). Yes, the ow didn't just happen, but I watched it unfold in disbelief like I was an observer or something, I thought any minute she would stop, and it would end, I was thinking that from the first time I typed I like you alot, through all the eventual phone calls etc. That was a committment on my part, I permanently had already left my wife emotionally, had stopped sleeping with her completely (although this was just the end of a process that had already reduced to just a couple times a year (my choice, she was always willing) for last few years as our relationship finally self-destucted all the way down to the physical level, she never asked a word of why, and welcomed my departure to another bedroom). She now says is not what she wanted, did not know how to talk to me about it, and was a huge mistake. That sounds a bit self-serving to me. I know she is hurting, I understand all to well about rejection, having experienced it for 27 years, I was the fixer, the one being emotionally vulnerable, wanting it all to work, she was the one who would not make the emotional investment, instead remaining firmly attached to her birth family, and making it clear I was second. Anyways, I don't wish to hurt her and am accepting all the blame. I just don't feel anything other than concern, I do not want to hang out with her, be buddies, make love, or anything similar. I can fake it, and she has asked me to, saying I will come around and she will change, but that I have to gaurantee all this first. I am tired of being the emotionally responsible party to a dependentcy relationship, it has only worked when I did the "stuff" the ow (as far as I can tell, and I think I can) carries her weight in the relationship, that is what feels so good. There are many other fitting types of things, but I understand that is all suspect in the romance of a new relationship. Still at 52 yo (both of us) I would like to think we are not as foolish, or blinded, as youthful lovers, and have assessed each other fairly well. As I said, it is quite doubtful she will leave her husband, preferring to sacrifice herself to her ideals, my issue is knowing things were very wrong with my marriage, and now knowing what they are. I am happy to hear you were able to reconcile with your husband, that seems to happen often, and is why I sought input. I do everything fairly, and will give the reconcilliation as fair a shot as I can, for her and for me, but I cannot help but be pessimistic, this is not a capricious decision but one very long coming, and after much much coounselling etc. It does seem the reality of divorce somehow makes folks more motivated, but IMO that is unfortunate and can be too late. I cannot help but wonder why it took this to get my wife's attention, and why I should trust her after she gets me back. We have done this before and she just goes back to the same old stuff. Anyways thx for all your thoughts, and prayers, they are appreciated.<P>Sheryl.... Indeed I do use the mirror test *smile*. But works both ways, 5 years from now I don't want to look in there and wonder why I was so foolish as to trust again. I have been fair, there for her, and faithful (well till last few months). I just cannot justify being married and alone for the rest of my life, and I am unwilling to settle for a bad marriage that is just improved to tolerable cause she does not want to be left. I understand her fear, she is a 52 yo stay at home mom. I am all she has. But that is a poor basis to choose each other as life partners. We married had kids (or would have been divorced long ago) and now we are paying the price of a broken marriage, a price she has a full role in too. I fully understand my obligation to support her financial for the rest of her life, and to be her friend if she needs emotional support, but I do not need to be her spouse.<P>Dana...What is a BS anyways? I figured out ws is wandering spouse, stbx is still unknown, and some of other acronyms. I will admit the relationship with ow is confusing, but I think I am not letting it interfere with what I am doing. It only consists of some talk on the phone, she is encouraging me to reconcille, partly cause she is distraught over her guilt in what is happening, we did start out as friends, and had no idea what lay ahead for us. She is torn up too, depressed in her life cause of what she feels with me but cannot see a way to have. It is a big mess actually. Not to mention she is terrified my wife will call her husband, she is grandmother, a pillar of her Christian community, married 33 years, and she cannot figure out how this happened either. Yet we still are pulled so strongly together, go figure. Nothing in my life has remotely prepared me to deal with all this. But despite the pretty much universal condemnation we would recieve if revealed to all, maybe it was supposed to be, wish I knew.<p>[This message has been edited by confusedin MI (edited April 18, 2001).]

Hi Confused, <P>As the rest have stated, your situation is personal but by no means unique. You have been given good advice and points to ponder as you review and decide what steps to take in your life. Lori's write up was great!<P>There are probably many more items that will affect your decision, but the decision is not yours alone. What will unfold will affect the lives of all you know and love. Life changing decisions that are not thought out well, can make for a disasterous future. Think hard and well on this point. <P>May I recommend a book entitled His Needs/Her Needs. While we may feel that we should individually be able to figure it all out, books like the above and Surviving the Affair, Givers and Takers, etc. help us see things in a clearer perspective. Really allows us to evalutate ourselves. We may think we have tried 'everything', but have we? What about our spouses, are there causes that need to be investigated? How do we know that we have really tried our best and did not exhaust every avenue of recovery? Will this other person really make us happy or are we trying to make it look like that way, because it feels better than the current scenario we are in now at home?<P>How can I get my spouse to become a better person and how can I do the same? What is the policy of a joint agreement (POJA)? These questions and more are answered in this site. Also the Harley's offer phone counseling sessions. <P>The main thing is that you and your wife have a goal to work this out together. Many of us wish our spouses were as available to work things out. Look at the positive aspects you have going in your favor. Don't be afraid to look past the hurt. <P>Hope this helps and wishing you a better recovery.<P>L.<p>[This message has been edited by Orchid (edited April 18, 2001).]

OW - other woman<BR>STBX - soon to be X (x-spouse, wife, husband)<BR>BS - betrayed spouse<BR>WS - wayward spouse<P>Okay, I'd like to chime in now. I must admit that your story is compelling. When I first read it, it hurt me. It was like my X saying it to me. I wavered from "another idiot" to he has a point and back again. I didn't know what to say until now. <P>Since all of the adultery stories are the same, almost down to the EXACT same phrases, it helps me get some insight into the mind of my now X (divorce was final Monday). I can see her thinking and saying the exact same things you said.<P>First of all, I am not a Christian (which my X has always had a problem with (more in the last 3 years), I'm more of a diest), but my X is a strong Christian (talks the talk, but doesn't walk the walk). Second of all she lied to me and cheated on me for the last 3 years, is still with the OM, and is wearing a promise ring. I'm not big on Christians right now. They think that they can do anything they want and be forgiven for it. She and the OM go to church together regularly. They take adultery into the house of the Lord. (Whatever)<P>Here are a few of questions that I'd like you to answer that may bring you back to reality.<BR>1. When you first fell in love with your wife, how did you feel? Did you feel then for your wife what you feel now for the OW? If the love that you felt for your wife faded away, what makes you think it will remain with the OW? BTW, a lot of what makes the feelings with the OW so strong is the secrecy. Once that is gone, a huge portion of the "love" will go with it.<BR>2. Since you have cheated on your wife and the OW has cheated on her husband, what makes you think that she won't cheat on you? What kind of foundation do you have to build a relationship on? I tell you that "love" (romantic love) is only one tiny part of a relationship. There must be trust, respect, communication and much more. You are already starting off without trust and respect (who can trust or respect a cheater?). Both of you are cheaters. <BR>3. God does not make mistakes. If you are under the impression that the OW is heaven sent and that this is meant to be, how can you explain why he would have put you with your wife for the last 23 years? He would NEVER approve of adultery either.<P>Affairs release the most power endorphins imaginable into the body. Essentially you are addicted to the OW. Addicts do not think clearly.<P>I agree with you that you have every right to BELIEVE that divorce is the only option. The problem is that you and your wife are in this situation because you two do not have the skills necessary to sustain a loving marriage. I have learned volumes by being placed in this mess myself and I'm still learning. Your marriage is doomed to fail as long as you pursue this OW. You cannot see it for what it is, a pipedream. You are blinded by "love".<P>I know that you think you have had enough of your wife, but all I see at this point is your weakness. If you were simply divorcing your wife, I would have nothing to say.<P>Affairs are NEVER justified and they seldom last into something wonderful. I know... , you know you are different.<P>I speak from the ultimate experience.<P>My mother ran off with the OM when I was 3 and my brother newborn. She divorced my father and married the OM who became my step-dad. The "love" went away after about a year. It was a dead marriage from there on out. My step-dad slept on the couch for years. To my step-dad's credit, he took care of us boys. My mother took little interest in us. He was still a jerk though. After my bother and I moved out, my mother divorced my step-dad. She just used him all those years. In the process, we were moved 400 miles from our dad.<P>Sure my dad had his share of problems; alcohol dependent and a temper problem. He has gotten better with time. It is so ironic that all my mother ever wanted was someone to take care of her. My dad remarried. His wife, my step-mother, has NEVER had to work a day outside the home since she married my dad. My mother absolutely hated having to work outside the home her entire life with my step-dad. If she had stuck it out during the bad times, she would have had many good times. Instead, she foolishly ran off with another man because of "love". She is now dead of cancer and is in the ground. I have no respect for her. She was totally selfish.<P>That's how WSs act; selfish.<P>So, it hurts me that your marriage has problems, but few marriage problems are insurmountable until an affair is introduced into mix. You don't even have a clue how much you have hurt your wife. I literally wouldn't wish that much pain on my worst enemy. <P>Here's the deal. Either be a strong man or a weak man. If you will not see, talk or communicate with the OW in any way for at least 6 months after your divorce is final, I will agree that your marriage wasn't worth saving and that you are a strong man but enough was enough. If you cannot do this, then you are a weak man and are on a very poor path. Statistically speaking, affairs seldom lead to lasting relationships. You will fill your life with guilt, regret, and you will lose the person you once loved forever.<P>It's 3:30 a.m., I apologize if my reply is not one of my best.<P>Kevin<BR> <BR> <BR> <P>[This message has been edited by father of 1, husband of 0 (edited April 18, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by father of 1, husband of 0 (edited April 18, 2001).]

Well, Confused, I don't talk around here too much anymore, but when I do, I talk A LOT!! Sorry. Stopped in to chat with old friends and you got stuck with me!<P>What I'm gonna say is not gonna tickle you to death and you won't believe a word of it, but, well, I guess since it's never stopped me before........<P>One thing I'd like for you to understand. None of this is out of bitterness. My life is good. The people here, even those whose hurt is still evident are here, spending their time with you because they care and want to help....because they KNOW. If you'd post on GQ, you'd probably also here from other WS's who've gone the way you are contemplating. they also had their situations figured out completely. No one here is here 'cause it's fun and no one's responding to you just 'cause they don't have anything else to do. Maybe, just maybe, they can see a little more clearly from their vantage point and they don't want to see YOU hurt either.<P>First, so you don't have to tell me again, I do realize that you do not anticipate that your OW will leave her husband and that you will most likely be alone and that's preferable to you than staying in this marriage. Hogwash. Although you've been "contemplating" going through with the divorce for some time now, you haven't done it. There was a reason for that. Somewhere, somehow, you've got to figure out what it was. No matter what you say about OW NOT influencing your decision, there's no way you can make that assessment while in love. Sorry. Ain't possible. As soon2b says, you leave a marriage as you came into it - ALONE - and whether or not you feel she will join you, your emotional attachment keeps you from making this decision ALONE. And I do believe, unless you're completely different from every single person on this earth, which you may be, I'll grant you, somewhere, deep inside, there's this tiny bit of hope that, once you're free, she'll be unable to resist the strength of this wonderful new love you've discovered and she'll know that she must leave her husband to find her true future and happiness with you. <P>"the OW was not a factor", "I've been comtemplating this for years" - WS handbook, page 92.<P>I'm not being smug, confused, I'm being honest with you. You came here seeking opinions, I'm offering friendship in the only way I know how and that's with complete honesty. ANY emotional attachment with another person will color your decisions. It's a fact. Not my opinion. You're smart enough to know this, I can see it. It just doesn't fit your justifications right now. The influence is not minimal, but monumental. We're talking about LOVE here, Honey. That's one of the strongest emotions that a human being can feel, and also, sadly, one of the most fleeting. However, while it's there, it's influence is greater than most any except perhaps survival - and sometimes I think it beats out survival. On this board, we've seen it cause mothers and fathers to abandon their children,literally not contacting them for months on end, and when faced with NEVER seeing them again, choosing this "love" over the little ones they'd have died for a few short months ago. It has caused good people to change their lifestyles, commit crimes, forsake not only morality, but legality as well. It's powerful stuff, whether you feel you will be together or not, the emotion is heady and intoxicating - there's nothing minimal about it. The sexual contact in, in essence, "just a thing". Once the emotional contact was made, once those "I love you's" started to enter your hearts, even b/f they were spoken, honestly even before that point, you were having an affair and no longer thinking rationally or reasonably.<P>I sympathize if that truly was the only reason you married your wife, had children with her and spent the last 23 years. To be honest though, it's not nearly as good as the way Robert re-wrote history about our courtship and marriage. And I've seen a lot better on this forum. Though it may be true, and I feel at least a grain of it is, unfortunately, as Nduli2 says, behind lying and secrecy, re-writing history is probably one of the biggest symptons of this mess for the WS. After Robert and I had been recovering for months, he came up to me one day and apologized for the lies he told about me and us during his affair. One of the things he said "they didn't FEEL like lies at the time...."<P>I know you didn't SEEK out this relationship. And your description of being an observer is understandable. We tend to do that - all human beings - in a number of situations - mostly when we don't want or can't face what we're doing. But it was a conscious decision and it was wrong. You not only allowed it to happen, you made the choices to continue and to feed it. Why? Honey, it felt good. You kept doing what felt good. It was new, it was easy (aside from the guilt, etc, but that's a given), it was intoxicating and it FELT GOOD. And you just went with it 'cause you liked feeling good. So, you're human. And tired, and lonely and frustrated and it feels good to feel good.<P>You think what your wife says is self-serving? How about "I've wanted to do this for years anyway and just 'decided' to go ahead and get divorced"? Uh, well, doesn't that sound a bit the same? You shouldn't accept all the blame (sounds a bit like a martyr to me, anyway, not buying it...she did this, this and that, but IIIIIIII accept all the blame - c'mon). It's not all your fault. The affair is. You did it. No one helped you or forced you, no matter what shape your marriage was in, there was no excuse for that. But you didn't bring your marriage to this point alone. Robert sat Kristin and I down (yes, I now use our real names) just a couple of weeks after he left and gave us a real long "this is ME, not YOU, and I've failed here, here and here" speech. He was wrong. He made mistakes, I made mistakes. We both let our marriage get where it was. We both had to grow and learn to begin building the marriage we wanted when we reconciled. It's a job - I wouldn't begin to kid you about that. But worthwhile.<P>I can understand your feelings (or lack of) for your wife. Perhaps the two of you let things get sooooo far off track that it was only loyalty that kept you together so far. Perhaps you never really loved her, not even in the early days of courtship, not when she gave you your children, not those moments when you laughed together, faced troubles and grief together, watched the babies as they grew. You may not remember, but there have been those times, when you looked at her with softness in your heart. That loyalty that kept you there for so long was love, confused. Dented, damaged and not as strong as it should be, but it was love. Not infatuation as you're feeling right now (I know, I know, this is the REAL thing! Of course it is, but it's the NEW thing, the beginning of love, the transient part.). And Honey, I don't care if you both are 100 years old, this stuff still dulls your senses. I listened to my ex motherinlaw talk about her new found love and she sounded very much like my almost 17 year old. At 72 years old. And they both sounded like my brother when he found his wife after being single for 10 years - at 45. It affects us all the same way.<P>Sometimes it does take a wake-up call as loud as an earthquake to shake things up. It's unfortunate. But many times, that's because as partners, we never we really clear about how serious the problem was anyway...even though we THOUGHT we were. It's a shame, but it happens. Not talking, not listening....it's pitiful.<P>You've got some good responses here, but before you even answer father's questions, I'd be willing to wager you'll say you NEVER felt about your wife like you do OW. Robert said that - PT was the only one. Now I am again. So don't EVEN use that part as a yardstick.<P>Ok, here's my practical advice. You want to be fair. Here's the fair thing to do - for yourself and your marriage. Cut all contact with the new love of your life. Walk away. Tell her you guys were wrong and you must never see or talk to each other again. If you live in the same community, find a way to stay away from each other. If you go to the same church, change churches. If you have any letters, any pictures, any momentos of her, get rid of them. Cleanse her from your life - for her sake as well as yours. If you truly love her, that real and God-sent love and she really does feel that to be true to herself she must stay in her marriage, make it easier for her to honor her marriage vows. We sacrifice for those we really love, right? No matter what the cost to us. Promise her and yourself you will never see her again. No emails, no calls, no nothing. And stick with it. Don't tell me it's too hard - we bs's do it all the time. The love of OUR lives walks out on us to be with someone else and pretends we don't exist. Through no decision of our own, we have to live without contact. It's gut-wrenching. It hurts. It tears at you. You want to die. The pain is physical as well as mental. It's called withdrawal and it's the same for us as bs's as it will be for you. We got through it 'cause we didn't have a choice. You'll get through it too. So, go through the withdrawal. If you don't have anything tangible (except your memories) to remind you of her, you should begin to feel a little more human in about a month or so. You'll still pine for her, it'll still hurt, but you won't wonder if death might be better than this - at least not most of the time. Oh, btw, if you see her or contact her, you start the time-line over again. Distract yourself. Read, read, read. Everything on this site, every relationship book you can find - there are tons recommended here and they're good. Learn all you can - about yourself and about relationships in general. Rather than just saying "I take all the blame", specifically see where you may have failed this marriage and work on those parts of yourself. Notice, I'm NOT saying pretend to love your wife. Or work on your wife. You can't. You can only work on you. Just learn while you're getting past this love. She'll try to contact you, too, probably. You can't let her. <P>Talk to your wife - not as partners or lovers - but as the people who created this mess. She says she wants to change, so make her a part of the learning process. There's 23 years of bad habits for 2 people to replace with good ones. That's a daunting task, though not impossible. Oh, btw, try not to be a real pain in the butt and take your heartache out on your wife. If she reads here, she'll know to expect it, but try, ok? <P>Now, after a few months, you'll discover that you don't think of this OW every single day, just every now and then. NOW, you can start trying to work on your marriage. You've spent the last few months learning, acquiring the tools, both of you have and now you're ready to put them into practice. Counsel with the Harley's - they're amazing. Practical solutions, not nonsense theory. And begin, at this point, to give it your all. Set a time limit if you need to - say three times as long as you had a relationship (not since you said I love you, just since you began the friendship) with this OW. 23 years deserves that, doesn't it? If you see NO IMPROVEMENT WHATSOEVER in your relationship with your wife after that period, and you've followed all the rules completely (ABSOLUTELY NO CHEATING), then, I'd say, go for the divorce. If you can see that you're moving forward though, then keep moving forward, right? you may be pleasantly surprised.<P>You want to give it a fair chance? That's fair. And decent. And honorable. And that earns your way out. And if your future is meant to be elsewhere, then you can seek it with no regrets. Alone, without an emotional crutch to lean on. <P>I'll shut up again now (aren't you just too glad? ) Good luck to you - whatever you decide. Please understand, I do care, for you and your wife.<P>Love and prayers,<P>Lori<P>

Confused,<P>Someone already answered for me, but I am a BS (betrayed spouse), my husband cheated on me, several times actually.<P>I never once understood this "fog" that our WS (wayward spouse) goes thru. Last September, I became involved with someone and it swept us off our feet. It was very intense. Neither of us were looking and I had decided I was not going to get involved but, it felt so good to be together. I felt like I hadn't experienced anything this intense before in my life. I did also date previously but chalked that up to the "rebound" or dating to soon, even though that was a good experience while it lasted. But my point is, that I do know how this fog feels now. I honestly did NOT feel this good when I met my now exH 12 years ago, but then again, I was 16 and not looking at things in the "future" perspective like I do now.<P>I am working hard on my current relationship because, I feel I am in love, I feel his love for me, and I am very happy . We went thru a rough spot last month, but again, it had to do with closure from the past and we're seeing the results of trying to work thru it now.<P>My divorce became final and my exH is already engaged. Even though I had a bf, I was bothered that he was engaged and that caused me issues that both myself and bf had to face.<P>So after going thru all that, I know now, that I did get involved too soon and before I healed. I thought I had a really bad discovery and my ex put me thru a lot, then I see people like Lori who made it thru and I feel badly that I didn't try harder . <P>Now that I'm talking too much all I really wanted to say , is that I've been where your wife is, finding out your husband wants someone else. It is very painful. I've also been on the "rushing" side of it, and it feels good at the moment, but it catches up to you in the end. <P>I'm also now currently very much involved but I admit that I should have went about it differently. People tried to tell me, but it was hard to listen! At this point, I am divorced, my marriage is over and I'm determined to make my current relationship work, because I found someone who lets me be me. I also feel like I came this far and we've been thru a lot and I do see a possibility with us in the future. <P>I also don't doubt that you had a troubled marriage, I think a lot of us did. I've read this before and seen it personally on the board, that an affair can shake a marriage up but can force it to be far better than it was before. Not all affairs end the marriage, and most remarriages that are a result of the break up of the marriage, will never survive. <P>I also think you might feel you'll be ok, if the marriage ends, and your OW is gone, but no matter how lonely you were in marraige, and believe me, I had a very lonely unaffectionate marriage, it does not prepare you for the loneliness you feel when you really are alone and your spouse is gone. And I felt this after only 11 years with my ex , but we did have 3 kids and a long history of ups and downs.<P>I'm just writing to say I've been in some similar situations, although I've never been unfaithful, I have learned a lot here from other WS,especially Bonnie, and I have seen tried to understand every angle. I do believe every situation has different circumstances, but from what you've written, I just would vote for you to at least try before you quit. ANd like Lori said, that would seriously mean no contact with OW.<P>I would also like to mention that 7 years ago, my ex cheated on me for the second time. The third one was in Dec 99 which ended us, but anyhow, after the second time, we were split up for a year, actually a little longer. We made it back and went thru recovery, and it was very hard, he went thru withdrawal from the OW and it took me a year at least to feel myself. But we did it, it is possible, so I can honestly agree with all of what Lori said. Our relationship was better than ever before, but at some point, we both either took it for granted or stopped trying.<P>This past break up for me, my ex left on xmas day, and was very abusive so I didn't have the energy to fight to save us again.<P>I'm at peace with it now. But I've taken A LOT of wrong turns along the way.<P>Hugs, Dana<P><BR>

Hello,<P><BR> I am also a BS, married 20 years. He also "thought" I would not care, when he was in the "fog." He did not love me "that way" In fact he stopped loving me that way about 10 years ago!!! I did nothing right for almost 20 years. <BR>He just wanted his "friend" he was so happy. I should go away and be happy,too. I didn't love him , in fact I too had boyfriends!! <P> At one time I was going to D my H. He is a bit controling, and we were having (step-children) problems. My children from a previous M. He wanted to control us all. I did not D him because I did not want to. No other reason then that. For some reason he never forgot that, and he did use it against me when he was So Happy. He also rewrote history.<P> Well he is home. His OW would not leave her man for him. She wasn't so wonderful after all. Who wants a cheating person. He would never have trusted her anyway. That is how she got her "now" man. She cheated with him for 3 years then he left his wife and children for her. How does she repay him,she sneaks around with someones elses H.Isn't she wonderful!?<P> Maybe you should take a real look at the OW.?? My H didn't either until he took off the rose colered glasses.<P> He now say's the things he said to me was basicly(bull.)I think he was in MLC.<P> Hugs and Prayers.<P> <P>------------------<BR>Deb

I have to print this whole thread and give it to my H. Lor, fabulous, insightful, and oh so real. Reality, oh what a pleasant place. Ha<P>Hopelessmom

My marriage has lasted for 26 years. Yes we had some rocky times about 6 years ago. I was looking for the greener grass on the other side too. I never had a physical affair, but it got pretty close to it on the phone (sex talk). I am so sorry for the hurt and pain that my wife went through. I was the weak one. She never had an affair, but she went through hell with what I did to her. Yes you are the weak one as well as the OW in your life. Sounds like the OW is committed to her marriage. You need to look at your life and your wife in the eyes and see that there is a spark left to work on. I did, and am I ever grateful that I gave us a chance to work on our marriage. Yes it was difficult letting the OW out of my life. I went through the stages of denial. Buddy it is going to hurt. But until you get the OW out of your life, your marriage has no chance. You need to throw the letters, gifts, and other things out too. We went through a lot of hurt and pain to mend our marriage, but I am so grateful for the chance to rebuild our marriage. I did not think it had a chance, but we went to counselors and marriage encouncters, and now we have a wonderful marriage. It will not be all that fantasy stuff, but it sure is wonderful being with the woman I have had a history with for all these years. The memories, the kids, the stories we can all share. You need to think about the kids too. So if they are grown, it is hard and ask your kids if they want a divorce. I knew mine didn't. That is why I went to this marriage with an open heart and worked on that little spark and make the spark grow. You have love for her deep inside, trust me, give her a chance and show her some love, compassion, and willingness to do the work. But the OW needs to be out TOTALLY. I hope you are talking to a counselor. Marriage encounters are the best. Find one and attend. All this history is worth saving. You will find that if you open your heart and mind that you can save this marriage and have a wonderful relationship with the woman you started with many years ago. You need to give this a heart to heart chance.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>When do you decide to give up and leave someone?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>When you have done everything humanly possible but <B>most importantly</B>, when there is <B>NOT</B> anyone else waiting at the sidelines! Else you will be leaving for all the wrong reasons and live to regret it every day of your life!<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>