I have come to a place that I'm not sure this can be saved without destroying me and my kids in the process. I've tried and tried for years to make peace with the situation. <P>I think the basic problem is that we shouldn't have ever been married in the first place. We are not even on the same planet on some critical things.<P>A couple weeks ago, we talked about me possibly staying home with the kids. He was more worried about how it would put a crimp in his recreation fund than whether or not it would be good for the kids. <P>Yesterday we were talking about possibly sending our older child to private school or even a different public school for next year - he had nothing but roadblocks. Won't even go look at this one school unless we're fairly sure we can work out the logistics of dropping him off and picking him up. And that would involve H picking son up at 2:30 on his days off work. WEll, that is unacceptable because it would "ruin" his weekend to have to plan around that. How do you resolve problems with someone who is more concerned about being free to go fishing on Thursdays than he is about his son's education???<P>On Mother's Day, I was meeting him and his family at a restaurant for breakfast buffet. I was supposed to be there at 8:30, and I pulled into the parking lot about 8:32. Not what I consider "late" for a family get together. H didn't say anything that day, but later this week he asked why I was "so late" on Sunday and insisted it was at least 8:45 when I got there. I know my clock is right and I know what time it was. But there was NO way he was backing down. How do you argue with that? I just walked away from the discussion on the principle of "I know I'm right it doesn't really matter if he agrees". But we have discussions of this nature on nearly a daily basis. And I'm always left wondering "is his recollection of reality really so distorted or is he deliberately trying to make me doubt myself?" Neither option is encouraging.<P>This is typical life at my house. Trying to make important decisions with someone who doesn't even seem to live in the same planet as the rest of us. Who seems to be incredibly self-centered and immature and is totally unaware of the absurdity of their thought process and priorities. How do you respond to someone who says it's not abusive to kick the dog and throw her around for digging a hole in the yard???? Is it even realistic to think that you can reason and resolve conflict with that kind of thinking involved?<P>H cheated on me during our engagement, and then again within 6 months after we got married. I don't think there has been anything more in the 9 years we've been married, but that did a lot of damage. We never went to counseling or anything because he wasn't interested. He found me on here a few days ago and he practically tied me up to get on my computer to check it out. And not because he was interested in the material -- just being nosy -- wanting to see what kind of "horse-sh**" I was reading. He has no interest in improving our relationship - everything would be fine with him if he got laid on a daily basis. And you better believe he takes advantage of every oppotunity to hassle me about the inadequacy of our sex life.<P>I've rambled on quite a bit here, but I am interested in hearing how others got to the point of deciding to divorce? I've tried the "be the best wife you can be" approach, and the more I give and do and submit, the more he demands and ridicules. But i don't want to give up prematurely. More than anything in this world, I want to be able to have a satisfying and safe relationship with H. I want to be able to say "I want my sons to grow up like him". <P>But I know in my heart that if I asked for a divorce tomorrow, he wouldn't try to fix things -- he'd be like "whatever makes you happy" -- convincing himself and everyone else that he's a martyr to my selfishness. So I know Ihave to be determined and certain in my own heart before I say a word, because you can't take it back once the words are out.<P>Thanks for your help.<P>LG

Your H wouldn't happen to be an alcoholic, or have other addiction problems would he? I ask because you just described one.<P>I take it that you are considering divorcing this man? Have you been in counseling at all? Have you tried the marriage builders principles to see if there is an improvement in your relationship?<P>What is your goal? A better marriage, or a divorce? <P>Sorry to ask so many questions...

Most certianly I want to do everything I can to save this relationship. But I'm not sure that I can trade my emotional safety and sanity for my marriage. H has made it quite clear that he is not interested in changing his behavior to accommodate my needs. Partially because he is convinced that I am nuts for being hurt or frightened by the things he does. He can't make the connection between how his beating the dog has a negative impact on our relationship or the moral development of our sons. I am starting to see our older son adopt some of the same attitudes and thought processes, and that really frightens me.<P>For years I have prayed for the patience to reach him, for the spirit to soften his heart. I have tried as much of the stuff on here as I can figure to do alone. I have tried to reach him and identify his EN and LB. The only EN he'll verbalize is sex. But even when that was plentiful, he didn't care about my wishes and desires. And he resents me for being willing to have sex just to meet his needs. If I try to verbalize my needs, he gets all defensive and starts going off about how I try to blame everything on him.<P>I am at the point of trying to figure out what I can possibly do. I am emotionally worn out after years of disrespect, doubtds, and trying to make this work. I don't want to give up prematurely, so I'm trying to figure out how you know you've done all you can and it's just not going to improve. I deeply believe in the sanctity of the marriage vows, but right now I feel like he never showed up. Right now, I'd settle for a safe marriage that is respectful. I've given up on the idea of an enriching marriage. He just doesn't have that in him. He thinks the Bundy's on Married with CHildren is a model family.<P>LG

You never said...is he an alcoholic? <P>What is his FOO like? Look at how his father treats his mother..and his siblings treat or react to their spouses..that should give LOTS of insight..<P>Also look at your FOO, how did your father treat your mother? Do you seen any similarities? <P>I know that my brothers and sisters and even my mother (before she died 5 almost 6 years ago) all said I have my mothers life before her and my father divorced..my mother on her death bed told me I needed to divorce him..or end up like her...21 years in a miserable marriage...I didn't even discuss the maritial problems with them..they just went on what the seen..I didn't seen that..but looking back now..I see it..so look back and see if there are ANY similarities..<BR>and make changes to yourself..because you can't change him no matter how hard you try or want to..only God can do that..IF they allow Him too..I have given this site to stbxh and he hasn't even read through any of it..have asked him his EN's and he asked me...so I told him..and he got mad was like..See I knew I was wrong..I was like..just because our needs are different doesn't make you wrong..and it doesn't <BR>make my needs wrong..but thats how he percieves it..that because we don't have the same basic needs..it's all wrong..but anyway..work on your own needs..you can meet some of them yourself..don't look to him to meet them all because HE can't..God can meet some...friends can meet some..and if he's truely interested..He can meet some...<P>

Are you sure we're not married to the same rigid, selfish, self-centered, immature, verbally abusive, manipulative, control freakin' alcoholic? I swear, I could have written your story, hon (and I have--somewhere). The words your husband speaks about not changing are my husband's (if I hear "accept me as I am" about his behavior one more time...). The petty clock watching to the very minute for everything, the refusal to change family plans/schedules for the good of the kids, the denyal of accountability for his behavior because he is effing ENTITLED, and the incessant arguing, arguing, arguing no matter what, indicates a control freak to me. Alcoholics are adept at controlling everything and everyone because they think they have direct lines to God Himself, and they are always right, and they will always win, and if you don't know your place woman, they will pummel you until you do or they will threaten to withdraw/withhold their "love" for you. Don't buy it. He will coerce you and manipulate you any way he can, because you are nothing more than his property. I'm sure he loves you on some level, but he thinks he owns you. Control freaks are wracked with deadly fear, and they are especially afraid you will get too close and find out. And if you do they will intensify efforts to control you, or bail out while barraging you with so much hate and anger you might think it's your fault.<P>I've been with my husband 14 years, and I filed for divorce last week. He tries like hell to get me alone so he can work his manipulation on me, but I do not allow myself to be alone if he is in my vicinity. He will not approach me if I am with a group or another person. For right now, he can send his silly letters I've been collecting or call my lawyer. If he is not willing to change his behavior (which is NOT changing WHO he is), then what you see is what you're gonna get for the next 20-30 years. <P>Sorry this is so intense. My feelings are quite raw right now from my experiences with my STBX. Take care.<P>Nell

ohhhh...sounds familiar...thats why I changed dance steps..<BR>(read that post..and you'll understand)

Sorry I didn't answer the question - no he's not an alcoholic. Or any other addiction I can figure. If he's a closet alcoholic he's doing a damn good job of hiding it. I've known him in times where he was drinking and he's a crappy liar.<P>After nearly 14 years, I still can't get a read on his family. His mother is very gentle. I have never seen any obvious disrespect, but there are subtle things I pick up from things H has told me (like Dad not wanting him to come home drunk because it would upset his mother.) H has absolutely no fondness for his sister.<P>My Dad is increidbly gentle and patient and has been incredibly supportive in my mother's endevours. He's been there for her through 2 bachelor's degree with children. I I never got a sense of "i'm just going along with this to humor your mother".<P>LG

TR,<P>We did the MBEN dance. It does no good unless there's honesty. Some people are incapable of knowing how someone else feels, much less anticipating needs, because they don't know how THEY feel. My husband only knows what he needs, which is really what he wants. If I could wish him well, I would. I tried for 4-5 years to save our marriage, but you need 2 people vested in the same endeavor for it to work. He's in the arms of his next conquest as I write. She has a house worth twice what ours is. I'll bet the bank that's his next residence.<P>Nell

I so feel for you in your situation. I want you to read your posts and notice you said twice you wanted a "safe" marriage. That means you don't feel safe in this marriage. Think about that for a few minutes and its affect on your life. <P>The dog episode to me sounds like someone who has something missing from the part of his psyche that knows what is right and wrong. Often this happens as a child when one wasn't given the correct (read: Healthy) rules of how to live honestly and healthily. He sounds like he doesn't have any compassion! He doesn't truly exhibit caring for his kids, his sister, or obviously his wife. <P>He probably won't seek or go to therapy. In fact, you would need therapy to be able to live with him and learn how to feel good about yourself under his roof. And, how are you going to ever feel safe with him? Is he going to suddenly stop beating up the dog or care about what school your kids go to? Doubt it. <P>This is a hard decision. You should consider having a discussion with him and possibly pursue joint therapy as a first step. <P>However, if he has EVER beaten YOU or YOUR KIDS you should walk away very quickly, no joint therapy required!!! There is no reason why you should live with someone who has NO RESPECT for your health or life. The damage to your children from seeing that and seeing you take abuse will warp them with their relationships in the future also. Propensity for abuse is something that is "handed down" from what I have read. And, I don't think an abuser would ever be able to stop abusing. You'd have to accept abuse to be able stay with him. And I would imagine your self-respect would be pretty low to accept living with an abuser. Accpeting abuse is not normal - it should not be tolerated!<P>Sorry I went off on the abuse part. I don't know you and you NEVER said you were abused, so I apologize if I was way off. I was emotionally abused by my ex-H who went off on me about once a month. I don't think that is often, and he never actually hit me, but he had a hot temper and would get in my face, push me, ruin doors/doorjams/doorhandles from slamming them, throw things at the walls, put holes in sheetrock, etc. Losing it when he was driving was pretty scary, however. I am glad to be away from that.<P>Best wishes. You might want to seek some therapy to talk these issues with someone qualified that can help you sort out what is best for your situation. They are just there to help and to listen.<P><p>[This message has been edited by CJ87 (edited May 20, 2001).]

Losing Ground,<P>Sorry to hear of your woes, I guess all of us have them here. Guys are thick, It took my wife leaving me , with the 2 kids, to get it and believe me I GET IT!! I have been working non stop for the last 3 months, Have made some progress, on me but a major set back today. Have you tried the tele counsling? I felt better after one session than 3 years of marriage counseling. My W did one solo and agreed. I have my next session on Tuesday and can't wait. <P><BR>

Hi, I dont usually post here, but my current situation makes me wonder if attempts at recovery are futile and maybe I should be on the divorce page.<P>Your situation sounds so similar to mine although my H suffers from multiple addictions. Your H may not have an addiction that has manifested itself but he seems to be of that same type of personality. I went through the same dog episode with my H!<P>People who have addictive personalities have something wrong with the neurotransmitter system in their brain. Attention deficit children also have this same dysfunction and in fact many become addicts. Was/is you H ADHD? Their whole system of reward and gratification is screwed up. Because they are attention defecit they may not perceive/remember times and details accurately. Im nooot suree if thiis is something that can be helped with some type of anti-depressant or not. They also have to come to the mindset that ther is something wrong with their brain function and most dont want to admit that.<P>Sorry, I cant offer you anything more encouraging. If we make it through the next couple of weeks, we are going to see a counselor on 6-5. After that H said he would see psychiatrist to see if meds will help. Right now I am desperate. We have been married 24 years. I can not see another 24 years in this same situation.<P>I will pray for you.<P>------------------<BR>"if you keep you face to the sunshine; you will never see the shadows" Helen Keller

I guess I can't answer for sure whether or not I'm being abused. There's nothing physical particularly, although he will take advantage of his physical superiority to control me. There have only been a couple episodes during our marriage of physical aggression towards me.<P>But there have been plenty of things broken and spilled during angry outbursts. There have been nights he slept on the couch because I came to bed later than he thought I would or because I wore socks to bed. Or because I had the nerve to get in bed and go to sleep. He has stormed out in anger.<P>A classic example of the stuff that bothers me is the discussion about private school for our son. I mentioned maybe being able to set up a carpool, and he had to make a smart-[censored] remark about "what makes you think anyone would let their kid ride with you???". Not in a really hateful tone, kinda grinning and teasing. But when every comment he makes to me is one of these "jokes", it wears on me. That's the kind of thing that I'm not sure if it really falls into the realm of abuse.<P>This is going to sound awful, but there are times I almost wish he'd just smack me, so I wouldn't have to wonder anymore if he's capable of it. And I wouldn't have to think about whether or not to leave.<P>I guess I had 2 differing thoughts behind the word safe. One is the physical and emotional safety -- knowing without a doubt that this relationship won't physically or emotionally damage me or my sons. And there's also the "security" type of safety. It just sucks to always wonder if things are going to work out. I hate wondering if he's really invested in this relationship, wondering he even cares whether or not we're together (aside from sex). I don't feel secure about my place in his life. I never know from day-to-day if I'm going to be the best friend or worst enemy in his life.<P>Thanks all for your thoughts and support. It helps to get some reassurance that I'm not just batty for thinking this may be beyond help. I guess my instinct is that nothing will change unless he gets touched by the Spirit and God reveals to his heart how this is not His plan for marriage.<P>LG

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nell:<BR>[B]Control freaks are wracked with deadly fear, and they are especially afraid you will get too close and find out. And if you do they will intensify efforts to control you, or bail out while barraging you with so much hate and anger you might think it's your fault.<P>Nell,<BR>Wow--so very well said! You just wrapped up in a couple of sentences what I've been feeling and struggling with for years. Actually, the past 8 months have been sheer hell, the remainder of the time was just in introduction to it.<P>"Control freak" is right. Divide and conquer, isolate and ensure dependency. Then once that's achieved, the object of control (in our case, ME)becomes so resented that the resentment eventually turns into hate.<P>I saw all of the signs way back when but like so many other women, thought our love could change him. My married life has been one of extreme sacrifice on my part and all it got me was becoming lonely and depressed. You see, I had the audacity to get ill--really ill, nearly losing my life. Then, a bad reaction to a medication happened, and now my precious bones and joints are slowly dying. My H just cannot 'put up with' the rigors and expenses of an ill spouse any more, as he just told me last night. <P>After reading this thread, I realized that my illness is something he can NOT control and this added a whole new dilemma to things. It has changed me and it has certainly made a huge change in him. After he announced that he wants a crack at a life of his own, and expressed surprised anger that I would expect him to stay with me in the face of such medical problems for life, I knew then and there that it is over, which was the title of this topic/thread. <P>So, how do you know when it's over? I once read somewhere that we love someone for the way they make us feel (think about it--it's so true!). Now that he has made me feel like a human reject with my physical imperfections, and feel like I don't deserve to live another day connected to him in any way, it's OVER. I needed that brick wall to fall on my head and now that it has, I feel a huge sense of relief. Now, I can pick a direction and go on with my life. <P>Good luck to all the posters here, and I wish you all nothing but the best from this day forward.<BR>Hugs...<BR>Winny

LosingGround:<P>Hi there. <P>You say he doesn't have any addictions that you know of. And yet, the more you write, the more I can say with assurance that you are describing the typical life of any co-dependent with an addict spouse. <P>Perhaps no addiction has manifested yet...perhaps there is something else wrong...but you aren't describing the typical marriage that has just grown apart or broken down.<P>And yet....this sentence bothers me and keeps nagging me:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Dad not wanting him to come home drunk because it would upset his mother<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I lived with active alcoholism for 8 years before I came to understand what it was and recognize it in my marriage.<P>My H, even to this day, is completely functional. He's a VP in his company, and is being considered for a promotion even after only 6 months at this company.<P>He's still an alcoholic.<P>Denial can be quite insidious. His entire family is in massive denial about all kinds of stuff...my H's sister flat out denys abuse that I witnessed personally happen to her.<P>So maybe I'm way off target. But something here is not right. You are definitely in an abusive situation.<P>What to do about it?<P>Well, I can't and won't advise you to leave, not unless he is physically harming you or your children. But what I can encourage you to do is go to counseling for yourself. Living in a situation like this distorts your thinking and perspective of reality. Spend some time with a counselor and try to identify the source of the problem. IF your H is an addict....you are right, nothing will change until he gets helps for his addiction. Definitely, whatever IS wrong, addiction or not, that problem must be addressed FIRST.<P>So just work on you for now, and give yourself some time before making any decisions. You might want to do some reading on codependency - CoDependent No More by Melody Beattie is a great start.<P>((((hugs)))) --BR

LG - that is my story too.<P>There will be a definite moment when you will know there can be no more. Mine was specifically when my H stated that any changing that would be done would be me, and he wasn't going to limit ANY of his actions so he could be part of the family (to him being part of the family meant that he sent home a paycheck - even though he spent the majority of it and more besides). It was a black and white moment for me - it was definitely over, in fact, I even took off my rings and put them in a dresser drawer without realizing I'd done it - then went back later and could remember the specific moment I removed them. <P>It isn't easy. And there are still moments when I wonder - but the reality is - I'm better off without him - and so are my kids. He's never come back or called. It's been more than two weeks, almost three. He hasn't even checked to see if we have grocery money. We do have, and we will manage to survive. We will be better for it - when we get past this....<P>Do what you have to do - but make your choices and stick with them. Yours and your kids lives and happiness depend on it.<P>Blessings. Jan<p>[This message has been edited by seekingjoy (edited May 21, 2001).]