Mike,<P>I know your wanting to date..and that your ready to move forward with your life..and stop standing still and feel like your going nowhere fast..<P>You said something that really hit me though..it's about the<BR>"just being friends" whats wrong with that? I mean..can't you have women friends that you just go out with as friends..and it not be sexual? I don't know..I guess I look at dating differently than most people..<P>When I think of dating...I think of going out to the movies or dinner, or both..or going out and doing something together..and then after a a couple hours..you go home..alone..and if you want to go out with someone else another night..You can..because your not married..and you don't have the sexual involvement with the other people..so the emotional attachment isn't really there..but you date different people so that you can really see if the one is really who you want to be with..and if they are..then you sit down and talk about it..being an exclusive relationship..that you won't date other women/men..and at that point you know that you really care about this person..and there is a bigger possibility that you'll get married...but I just have never understood why people tend to meet..go out once or twice..and then act as if they are married to each other..by not going out w/ other people..<BR>I guess I just think that exclusive dating should be held off until you have had a chance to see what else is out there...otherwise..you end up over looking many Red Flags..because your afraid to end the relationship..when if you go out w/ many ppl you can look at all the things with your eyes wide open..but..hey thats just my opinion...<P>I guess..I've done the other to many times..meeting going out a couple times..and then they are just there..

GSD,<P>Finally an easy question! (yeah right!).<P>"could I honor this new person if my wife came back?".<P>No hesitation at all - yes. If I was involved with Stacey (lets use her as an example, while don't see it happening, but anyway ).... If I were to begin dating Stacey and it became serious (I don't even think I mean engaged or anything like that), just serious where you both do not see an end to the current relationship, then yes I would most definitely honor my commitment to her. See there is that word again - "commitment". If you know some of my history I posted here, you know that commitment is not just something I value, it is something I live by (sometimes even above happiness). If I gave my heart to "stacey" and then Amanda came back - it would be too late for Amanda. And I say that without even flinching. For once I give my heart to someone "new", the old commitment is no more... Amanda made it perfectly clear what she wanted when she left and divorced. I grew to accept her decision. I can and have forgiven her, but I can't in good faith promise her my heart for the next 10 years, 1 year even 1 month - in my mind that ended when the judge said "you are now a single man - good luck".<P>GSD, sure there are all kinds of "grey" areas in this type of situation like how serious is serious? I think if I told someone new that I loved them and truly meant it, at that point they could be assured that I was sincere to them and to them only.<P>But even after writing all this, I really can't tell you what I "definitely" would do because there are just too many factors when it comes to matters of the heart and I am smart enough to know that anything is possible. But you know what? There are NO guarantees in life. Even for those who have never been divorced. Look at me - my xwife was perfect in my eyes when we married and look what she did to me! I NEVER in a thousand years thought it was in her to do what she did. So while I can say that commitment is #1 with me, I also need to remember, as does everyone else I date, that I am human and not perfect (far from it! ). I make mistakes - I screw up. All that any of us can do is to think about our decisions not just in how they effect us, but how they effect those around us as well. So many times I go as far as putting others ahead of myself. Do I get hurt by doing this? Sometimes. But in my belief system, it is worth it.<P>So to summarize my diatribe! If I was serious with a new woman, yes I could honor my commitment to her even if my xwife came back into the picture. And I think that is true of many men (the good ones at least) - (and good women).<P>God Bless,<BR>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

Hey Mike:<P>I must admit I haven't had time to read through all the replies to your post but wanted to give you one more divorced woman's perspective.<P>I have been divorced over a year now. I have had two relationships since my divorce. One started about a month after my divorce and we really hit if off. We both wanted to be back in another relationship so much and we thought we were perfect for each other. He was loving, attentive, giving, attractive, funny, etc. etc. After about 6 months, I got really scared and asked myself "what in the world am I doing". This is way too soon. I need to live own my own for awhile and the thought of being married again just scared the heck out of me, so I bailed out.<P>A few months later, I met another man and we have been dating ever since. The same thing happened again. We both hit if off tremendously but this man has some other qualities that really appeal to me. We are now pretty serious and I am frightened again about the prospect of marrying him one day. He wants that as soon as I'm ready. He has been divorced 7 years and is ready to take the plunge again. <P>Sometimes, I just want to run away and get married and have a family again. And, I think what a great guy! Just like GSD! I think I won't be able to find someone like him again. I too believe that people come into our lives for a reason. I really hope this man is the one for a lifetime but I just don't know. I am so analytical now about everything that happens in this relationship. I do not want to fail again and because of that I am unsure of my judgment now. I'm not sure if things that happen are normal for this stage of our relationship or things that are considered red flags and therefore I should walk away from. Because of this, it is hard to be in a relationship now. I think the key is to be honest every step of the way about where you are coming from. <P>I think in your situation she is trying to be honest with you about where she is right now. She is afraid based on her past relationship failures. She probably is starting to get anxious and nervous because she wants to believe what a great guy you are but is wondering what she hasn't learned about you yet. I think you need to just accept where she is and move on. In my situation, I am much further along. And, it is hard to walk away now. I do talk to him about how I feel and he has said he will wait as long as I need and we will take it as slow as I need to but then he turns around and will start talking about wanting to be married again. I think he wants to respect where I am right now but wants so much to be married again, it is really hard for him to do just that. When I read your original post, that is what came to my mind.<P>Again, I haven't read all the replies since your original post so this may have already been addressed. I would say to let her go for now and see if she comes back. I think that was recommended by some.<P>Take care,<BR>Jen

Thank you all.<P>What a great place this is - I tell so many people about it and how it has helped me tremendously over the past year. I know that I could have never gone to a face-to-face support group, and even if I did, I would have never said some of the things I wrote here. I think being somewhat anonymous makes it much easier. I wish I posted here a couple weeks ago about this topic, maybe things would be different with me now - but I was carried away in la-la land. One positive no matter how this turns out and that is I was actually HAPPY. Happy - truly 100% happy if only for a few days - I felt it again. It is possible! For no other reason, that makes everything that happened with Stacey worthwhile.....<P>What you say all makes very good sense to me (even if some of it is hard to hear). Many of you are so right about letting her walk away and see what happens. I used to be able to do that so well before I met my wife and it did work a few times where either she (the woman I was dating) or I would stop the relationship, move away and then realize we would want to try again. I even did it with my x when we first met. But when my x walked out on me a year and a half ago, I thought I'd do the same thing and just give her space - unfortunately she kept walking and never looked back. That hurt and now I can see that is a scar that I need to work on - to trust that women can walk away and not all of them will keep walking. Does that make any sense?<P>I think I just need to find that "sweet spot" in dating where you show interest but not too much (at least in the beginning). Let nature take its course and just relax and not look too far into everything. Stop obsessing.<P>ThornedRose,<BR>Don't get me wrong, I have many girl-"friends". I always have. In fact at parties, I often find myself hanging out with the women sometimes more than the men. And for the most part, not one sexual thought ever occurs about any of those "friends". My life is not centered around physical intimacy at ALL. I think you misunderstood me - What I miss is the "closeness" of someone special, not the sex. The secure feelings you get when you are dating someone exclusive (doesn't have to be engaged or even serious), just someone I can share things with - my thoughts, my emotions, fun, activities. Someone I can hang out with, fool around with, kid around with, and know that we are focusing only on the two of us and no one else. That is just who I am. I view dating as practice - practice to see if you could spend your lives together. If I am just hanging out with a friend, then I don't consider that a date at all - to me they are two entirely different things.<P>I believe that if you constantly keep looking and dating different people, you often get into the mindset that there is something wrong with everyone, and that perfect person is still out there somewhere. Then you come to a point in your life where you are alone, having moved from one person to the next. You look back on some great people you dated, but now they are no longer there. Or maybe even worse you find someone and settle down, then begin to wonder if there isn't someone even better out there.<P>I think we just have different philosophies - I believe that when I find someone I like enough to date (keep in mind that I am picky, and just going out on a date means that she is worth it to me), I keep dating that person until it ends - be it because of me or her or some other reason. Then I move on to the next person.<P>I really don't think either way is right or wrong, I think it is whatever "you" feel most comfortable doing. That is why this world is such a great place - everyone thinks differently - so much diversity.<P>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

So Tired, I know a year and a half of being alone and hurt is hard-it has been 8 months for me-I am sooooo scared of entering a relationship right now. According to my counselor and all the books I read people need to wait 2-3 yrs after a marriage has ended to start another serious relationship. This gives you- yourself time to understand yourself. You want to be in a relationship as a stong person and share intimacy with someone who is also strong, this will creat a strong healthy realtionship. This is just the advice I have been giving. (Don't know if even I can wait that long though) A good book to read is Growing Through Divorce by Jim Smoke. It helps with the initial stages after the divorce and than with the years to follow.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoTired2000:<BR><B><P>I believe that if you constantly keep looking and dating different people, you often get into the mindset that there is something wrong with everyone, and that perfect person is still out there somewhere. Then you come to a point in your life where you are alone, having moved from one person to the next. You look back on some great people you dated, but now they are no longer there. Or maybe even worse you find someone and settle down, then begin to wonder if there isn't someone even better out there.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hmmm. You know, there IS something wrong with everyone! And that is the beauty of it all. Because there is plenty wrong with US too! But there is a balance to be found between settling and being too picky. It is a question of knowing yourself, your desires, drives, priorities, values, and what made you the kind of person you are. Self awareness is the key. So many people go through life (many WS's I think do this) imagining the "greener grass" scenario. How sad. They will always be chasing the wind.

mike,<P>I didn't mean to imply that you were just looking for the "sex" in a relationship..I'm sorry that it sounded that way..I have always had a "men" friends..that I am just friends with..but I have had many more relationships that were based on drinking and sex..I prefer the friendships..my stbx was always jealous of my "friends" he didn't even want to get to know them..always told me that "they were only friends with me so they could one day have sex with me" talk about a blow to a person..who already thinks thats all they are good for anyway..I used to wonder why the men I am just "friends" with never tried anything sexual..and I finally (in the past two years of this mess) realized..they like ME!! As a person..not for any other reason..but that I am ME!! And thats a good feeling..<P>But, I understand the dating one person when you see that you really like them and want to spend more time alone with them..and see if it could work..and thats okay...but you have to do the dating thing first to see if you like them more than the others..which is what you are saying also...I just look at "most" men as only wanting sex..and I have a hard time w/ those men right now...and probably always will from here on out..at least I'll be able to spot them and run before it gets serious..I've learned that it's okay to say NO..and have someone respect that NO..and that they won't pull away from me just because I don't want to have sex..

OK, though I would update everyone here.<P>What a mess I made of things. In a nutshell, I scared<BR>the begeesus out of this girl. Last I left off with her,<BR>I wrote her a letter just saying that it was a shame things<BR>didn't work out between us but that I had no hard feelings,<BR>blah, blah, blah....<P>Now I find out today that she thinks I am psycho! And to<BR>a point I totally agree with her ! She said I came on<BR>waaayyy to strong and it made her nervous - real nervous. The thing is, I have never been like that before - it used to be that I was too laid-back. The whole time we were dating I knew I was borderline obsessive about the relationship, but I just could not relax about it and let things go along naturally. It was the only thing on my mind (even stopped thinking about my xwife). It was almost like an addiction (it scares me just to write that!) - but I have to admit it to myself - I got carried away. The questions I have now are "why did I become like that?" and "what can I do to make sure it doesn't happen again?"...<P>I think many of you were right in that I am not "ready" to date like that just yet. I lost control of my emotions and it happened so fast (about 4 weeks). Even the things that bothered me about her, I began to rationalize away. Looking at her now in a "removed" point of view, there are many "red-flags" that I should have considered all that way back to our first date. <P>I guess it is just that for the past 2.5 years, my life has stunk in every sense. I am thankful for my friends, family and health, but other than that it has been such a difficult time. There seemed to be no bright spots at all - financially, emotionally, physically - everything was blah!<P>Then I find someone who I think I could like and (boom!) I get all caught up in the moment!<P>Have you ever been trying to light a fire with a small flame? You begin to wave a piece of paper or something similar so that it gets enough oxygen to begin to burn, but then you wave too hard and it just goes out? That is what happened. For the first time in a long, long time I was happy - really happy. I mean happy down to my soul. I got so excited, I became obsessed with making sure it did not end. And instead of just letting things happen, I tried to force them.<P>Now instead of her seeing the good person, the gentle somewhat confident person I am - she sees a borderline pscycho. She told her friend that I actually scared her. That makes me so sad I hate hurting/scaring anyone and that is exactly what I did. And being considered any kind of threat to anyone makes me sick to my stomach.<P>Not sure why I am writing this here. Maybe just to get it off my chest - It is not something I want all my friends to know about, if you know what I mean.<P>So now I am alone once again. But strangely enough I feel a little stronger. Stronger that I now know someone "can" and one day "will" like me again - and that love may indeed show its head again in my life. Like I keep saying, this all seems to be a never ending learning experience - But I still can't believe I have to learn "how" to date all over again...<P><sigh>.... Just a down day. Wish I could go back about 3 weeks in time....<P>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

Wow! Thanks for the update.<P>Well, don't worry about her. The main thing is that you learned something from this whole experience. No regrets....<P>While I'm not at the same place you are, I can understand how you could become so "addicted" to feeling good with a woman....esp. when you do have those lonely days. I can totally relate to that. <P>I've been doing pretty good most days, but in the past few days, I've felt down and a bit blue....i.e. lonely. I still sometimes miss my H (even tho he really hurt me and I don't really want him back). What a dufus!!<P>Anyway, hang in there and keep the faith. Try reading that "If the Buddha Dated" book...I just started it and while I am a pretty strong Christian, what I've gotten so far is that getting to know others can be approached almost like an experiement....just finding out...not forcing anything or trying to figure out what's gonna happen in the future. Just be yourself and let the love unfold.<P>I <I><B>think</I></B> I look forward to trying that (way in the future), but who knows....<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<BR>

Thanks for the support Mrs. O.<P>I don't really regret what I did, I just feel bad that I hurt her in the process, especially when I felt I "was" ready to at least try a relationship. I was/am ready in the fact that I won't let my x dictate my actions, but not ready in the fact that my heart is too "open" and wanting to be filled...<P>Never saw how I acted coming - it caught me completely by surprise...<P>Thanks.<BR>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoTired2000:<BR><B>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The trick is....can we wait for His timing? <P>In the meantime, ask Him to fill your heart. I know...I know...it's not exactly the same. But He can help you thru this time and guard your heart from future "damage" if you ask Him to.<P>Keep the faith!<BR>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<BR>

You know the absolutely crazy part about all of this? Up until I met this new woman, I had been talking/listening to Him daily. Even while dating her I still kept communicating with Him, except I did not pray about her at all. I thought I was smart enough to handle it myself. I forgot about patience and to let him "lead me".<P>I basically ran ahead of Him and I fell flat on my face. You would think I would have been smarter considering. But I guess being human it comes with the territory!<P>I am beginning to feel like Charlie Brown - "oh brother"<BR> <BR>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

I have been single about a year and a half and am not yet ready to date yet. If I started dating now, I would really feel smothered by one date each week, much less several dates and lengthy phone calls. She is used to being independent, and has been burned. Plus she may have dates with other friends too. I would respect her desire to remain single and not overwhelm her; she is not used to a committed/monogamous married relationship - Dates are all her experience. First try to be friends and enjoy each other's company. After a few months then tell her you really like her. But I wouldn't start so fast if it sounds like she is just interested in getting to know someone. Patient Persistence is the way to win women like this over. Be laid back, if it works out great. If it won't, then you'll find out right-quick if you overwhelm her, or later on after some dates and after you both were patient and made a more cautious decision. Hope that helps.

Well thank you for taking us along on this journey, I've just read the entire post and your excitement and learnings all along the way... chin up friend. The most important thing to learn there is that you were happy for a moment, and I guess even MORE important is to put your new relationships before the Lord and trust HIM for your fulfillment and not the relationship. But, I don't think I need to tell you that... Cheers friend! Thanks for sharing all of this - what a help.<P>------------------<BR><I>As iron sharpens iron, so does one wo/man sharpen another...</I> Prov 27:17

(((((((((Mike))))))))))<P>As usual, I'm late on the long threads, but I just read thru the whole thing. You received great advice from a lot of wonderful people here. <P>Many things that you said, I could have said myself, and even have. A lot of what you said, sounds very similar to my bf when we first met. Especially about being committed to the "potential new gf" even if exW came around. (that is much harder to do when the opportunity arises)<P>While you may not be ready to jump into a serious relationship, you still learned a lot. You are a good person and that's easy to see. <P>I have also been "caught in the moment" at times, and probably obsessive too. I think its part of the after effect of being betrayed. <P>Hang in there and I don't think anyone here thinks your psycho!! <P>Hugs, Dana<BR>

Mike,<P>You know you are one of my favorite people--I trust your judgement and listen to your wise council. This time, listen to me. This is your first try at this, and it didn't turn out perfectly. Oh well, live and learn. The point is LEARN. And about the biggest lesson you can learn from this try at dating is to continue to keep your eyes fixed on God no matter what you are doing. All the time. Keep you eyes fixed. <P>You know, there is a reason why He puts this stuff in there: "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not unto your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him and He shall direct your path." (Proverbs 3:5) In human-being english, that means, trust God to bring you the woman that your heart so longs for. She's out there! He's bringing her--but "after you have suffered a while" (I Peter 5:10). Remember God's "a while" is usually a little longer than our "a while". So, in the meantime, don't try to make it happen or take control or think that you can create a relationship because of what you now know. In everything you do, Mike, EVERYTHING, let your actions and behaviors and thoughts acknowledge God, and you know what? Your path will go where it is supposed to go to find the woman who will thrill your heart. After you have suffered a while, God Himself will restore you and lift you up. <P>So, buddy, you know what I'm saying. I know that your heart is anxious to be loved and love again, but wait on the Lord, okay? {{{{{Mike}}}}}<P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

Dana & CJ,<P>Waiting....arrgggghh... It is so hard sometimes (keep your minds out of the gutter ). I mean it is so "difficult" not to be "looking" for someone. And if I hear "ITS WHEN YOU ARE NOT LOOKING FOR SOMEONE THAT SOMEONE ENTERS YOUR LIFE" ONE MORE TIME Actually I know there is truth to that!<P>But I know that the waiting is going to be well worth it. Even as lonely as I have been for so long, I can just feel the strength He has given me to keep going - keep moving ahead - keep hoping.<P>When I first came here to MB I read what others wrote and it helped me so much to see that other people were going through the EXACT same things as I was - kind of like misery loves company So I choose to write here in a very personal manner, trying to express all that I am thinking so that maybe someone who is feeling the same or going through the same, can relate and know that what they are feeling is perfectly normal. And also writing has been such a terrific release for me.<P>I also some times feel bad that I don't contribute as much as I used to here. There are just so many stories, it takes forever to read through them all and my day then disappears! Keep in mind that I work in the Internet industry so all my "surfing" is done during the day - the last thing I want to do at night is look at another computer! With that said, if either of you, or anyone else for that matter wants to hear my simple humble opinion on something, add my screen name to the subject so when I skim over the topics I'll be sure to look in on it...<P>I hope you both are doing well. CJ, I will check in on your posts today and tomorrow to see how all is going with you. And do know that you all really are remembered in my morning "talks" with the Big Guy every day!<P>God Bless,<BR>MIke<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

Mike,<P>I think the first "relationship" out of a long one that included betrayal, no intimacy and such is the hardest..<BR>were so starved for that affection..and our self-esteem is<BR>so low -- to think that someone actually likes us..and WANTS to spend time with us..and enjoys talking to us..and listening to us..it causes major love units to be filled in that empty bank..so look at it this way...give it some time..give her some space..and in about a month..call her<BR>to see how she's doing..say..was just thinking about you..thought I'd call and say hello..see how things are going..keep it brief..then say..maybe we can get together for coffee sometime..and then say..well..I need to get..talk to you later..and hang up..<P>after my first marriage..thats what I wanted..a man who wasn't there constantly..who would come over visit for awhile..and then leave..not one that was..as my bestfriend puts it.. "up my butt" all the time..not one who is ALWAYS there and you don't have time to be with friends..and do other things because you have no free time..because this person is monopolizing ALL my time..show up uninvited..make themselves at home..to the point where they just go climb in bed when they get tired..and kinda move themselves in...<BR>(not saying YOU did that) but..she may have feared that you would since you were spending alot of time together..but anyway...<P>We know that your learning as we all are..and it will take some time..but you'll meet someone..in God's timing...<P>

Hey Mike,<P>Sorry about how things have turned out for you. I know it is hard to wait. But, I strongly advice it. I am now having some serious problems in my second relationship and I wish I had waited. But, unfortunately, some of us have to learn from our mistakes. I have been divorced over a year now and issues are still popping up for me. And, now I feel like I have hurt two men in the meantime although they knew my state of mind when they got involved with me. However, that doesn't make me feel any better. <P>Thorned Rose just described my situation to the tee. I couldn't have described it any better. <P>I wish you luck, Mike! I have read your posts here and there over the past year and I know you are one of the good guys out there. Just take your time. If you go out too soon, it just doesn't seem to work out no matter how hard you try and how much you think you know.<BR>