I had a lengthy conversation with my ex the other night and it would appear that her fog is lifting.<BR> <BR>It has been just over a year since this whole ordeal began and although there was not admission to the divorce being the wrong decision, she is showing remorse.<P>Unlike my other posts, I really don’t have much to say regarding this whole turn of events, but rest assured that my mind is racing. I’m trying not to make any decisions, statements, promises or speculations in regard to the future. A lot of damage has been done, but I still believe in the basic concepts of marriage and that all things happen for a reason. The best I can hope for at this point is for us to rebuild our friendship and then just let things run their course.<P>It’s weird, but there is a sense of calm over me right now that I have not felt for a very long time. Maybe it’s just a result of some twisted sense of satisfaction knowing that she is miserable with the decisions she has made? I don’t know? One thing is for sure though, I still have a ton of questions that probably will never be answered.<P>Like everything else in my life, I’m taking this one day by day.<BR>

So she got the divorce and now is regreting it? Sounds oh so familiar! Did she cheat or was it you? Not being nosey, just wanting a little background.

No affairs in this marriage. Just the case of marrying too young I'm afraid.<P>We started dating toward the end of college. She was 20 and I was 23. We loved together for 5 years, got married, then parted ways 20 months later. We were divorced 4 months later. I received the standard, "love, but not in-love" speech and very few concrete reasons as to why she was exiting the marriage as quickly as she was. She just wanted out.<P>It turns out that she is just an unhappy and somewhat lost individual right now, not really knowing herself or what she wants out of life. She was unhappy and I think she used me and the marriage as a scapegoat for her sadness, then she was alone and that sadness did not go away.<P>I'm being a bit brief here in my overview, but it covers the basics. There are a few of us out here who have similiar stories and although it seems rather rare, some marriages do end without affairs being one of the reasons. <BR>

Hey Jayhawk..<P>I can totally see my situation being almost exactly the same as yours in about a year or so. My wife and I are in the process of Divorcing and I have a strong feeling that in the next few years, she will be in the same position as your ex. <P>My wife and I still talk with each other once every 2 weeks or so and we would probably be good friends outside of marriage, but even if she wanted me back, I don't think I would go back because she has hurt me so bad for so long!<P>Let me know your progress with your ex. What did she talk about that made you think that she was rethinking her desire for divorce in the first place. <P>Please keep in touch..<P>Take Care<P>Bryan<BR><P>------------------<BR>BJK

you know, there are so many non emotionally challenged people in the world, that why would you wnt to go back to<BR>the emotionally challenged ones??? especially if it takes them so long to come to their realization?<P>I would not even consider returning one who can't think through the consequences of their actions. . . . those are people who live only in the present, they can't live for the future, they will then have to be responsible for their actions. . . <P>i know that you are picking at your wound, it is almost healed, but you are still picking at it. a nervous habit is to pull scabs off. . . <P>good luck,<BR>but you need to find a new job, <BR>and start reaching for your goals, and let the past <BR>be the past. . .<P>just my two cents, and not worth a plugged nickel.. . .

Hi Jayhawk 93,<P>I too am wondering what gave you the impression she is regreting her decision without her actually coming out and saying it. Did this impression get your hopes up?<P>hopefulheart<BR>

I totally see my situation in yours. My wife and I married when she was 20 and I was 24, still in college. 10 years later I think she thinks that she hasn't gotten a chance to live. I never stopped her, but I guess I never encouraged her either. Neither of us were open about what we really wanted. Now she's at her parents in a very small town where what ever dreams she has will be harder to fulfill... unless its to live in a small town.<P>After posting and reading here, I've come to the conclussion that our situation isn't unique and its not even close to the worst of them. I'm picking up the pieces of my life by talking to a therapist and my family, even talking to her sister who I always got along with. They are all being very helpfull and I feel that even though its only been a little over a week since I last saw her, things are getting better for me. <P>I'm sure there will be bad days, but right now I just like the person I'm discovering I am. BBQ pizza rocks, when you're feeling down!<P>Hang in there.

As a PS. Your handle is Jayhawk93. Did you go to KU? That's where my wife and I attended grad school. And she graduated in 95.

WhenIfindthetime,<P>I'm sure Shawn will respond back to you directly on this, but from my point of view - why wouldn't a person consider reconciliation with an X (as long as they have love in their heart for them and as long as they are still single)? If you believe in the institution of marriage then there is a vow that says "for better or for worse, til death do you part" - The vow you make is not just to your spouse, it is to yourself and to God. In my view, it doesn't matter if your spouse breaks every vow in the book - that should not effect your vows at all (in a perfect world). Why are we so quick to pledge our undieing love to someone, then take it back as soon as that person falls out of our favor?<P>And as far as finding a "emotionally stable" person, well I think that is asking a lot - I think all of us, every human being has problems and issues. When you marry someone you are supposed to be looking past their issues - you marry them "in spite" of their faults.<P>I just had a conversation about this last night with my mother. She said "If your X came back around don't you think it would be a huge risk to try again? That she would just hurt you all over again?" I replied; <P>"I never thought she would hurt me the first time, right? And look what happened. Well what is to say that the risk of someone new hurting me down the road is any less than that of reconciling with my X and having her hurt me again?"<P>Think about it.... For those who do reconcile with their X, they are not continuing an old relationship, they are starting a "new" one. They have such a great opportunity for they are starting a new relationship with someone they know very well and accordingly they hopefully will be able to avoid most if not all of the normal relationship potholes along the way. I had a good friend tell it to me like this many, many months ago - "How great would it be to get to fall in love with your wife all over again?". That really made me think. To me at least it would be incredible.<P>There are no positives in this life - there are no sure things - I think most if not all of us here can agree to that.<P>If Shawn still has love in his heart for his X and if she has the same in her's for him, then why not see what happens? Forgiveness is something that is so missing from our society - You see the lack of it everywhere. What totally amazes me is that when someone who has been hurt decides, out of the goodness in their own heart, to forgive the person who hurt them, society looks "down" upon the person doing the forgiving - like there is something wrong with them or they are pathetic and can't let go or they are weak. Unbelievable. Personally I think those that are able to forgive are much stronger people then those that carry grudges.<P>There are those that don't have it in their hearts to forgive their spouses - but there are those out there who do, or who have, or who someday will. I don't think we should stand here and judge them because they choose to take a "higher road" than us and choose to forgive. I don't think it is because they can't move on or they are weak - quite the contrary, I think they are much closer to realizing what true love is and they are willing to sacrifice and trust in that love.<P>Just as Shawn doesn't know what is going to happen, neither do we. For me, I would always be the one who would err on the side of risking it all for love, but I know that I am a romantic at heart. And I know that often the risk ends up hurting me in the end, but I believe in love. I have faith in love. A big part of loving someone is forgiving them when they hurt us. Well it is true that divorcing someone is A HUGE amount of hurt to forgive, but how great of a person is he/she who can forgive like that. And how lucky is that spouse who is on the receiving end of that forgiveness!<P>Shawn and I both asked God many months ago and said that we would do "anything - anything at all" to save our marriages. Well what if divorcing our wives was what we needed to do to save our marriages in the long run? Being married so young, just maybe our X's need to experience the world without us, before they can understand what they had "with us". If that is the case, then they just need to grow and mature. Sure they hurt us badly along their journey, but we all need to mature in our own ways - should we as their spouses punish them for their confusion? Some will say 'yes' and some will say 'no'.<P>As I tell everybody I talk to about my own divorce "While situations are similar, every divorce/marriage is different and every heart is different. You will never know what you would do unless you have gone through it yourself..."<P>For me, my X has cut all contact since our day in court, so there is no sign of any kind of reconciling in my future. But I'll be honest in saying that if she did contact me, I would try to be as open-minded as I could to listen to what she had to say and to maybe take a risk and see what happens....<P>WhenIfindthetime, like you said, this is only my $.02 <P>God Bless,<BR>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

Mike,<P>you use the sweeping generalizations to validate your point of view.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> And as far as finding a "emotionally stable" person, well I think that is asking a lot - I think all of us, every human being has problems and issues. When you marry someone you are supposed to be looking past their issues - you marry them "in spite" of their faults. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Mike, everyone is different, some people are emotionally stable, others are not. . . there is a fine line, and being separated or divorced may not change that. however, if she can't explain to shawn why she did this, then she isn't the emotionally stable kind that i think shawn deserves. the poor guy is still wondering what the hell happened, is postulating just like i am postulating why myself, and is looking for validation that it wasn't him by waiting around to see her reaction when her fog lifts.<P>Mike, what one wants to make a good marriage work is a high level of compatibility, and emotional stability. the level of compatibility is unique to each individual, and emotional stability is a variable, but not unique, measurable. Just because there are varying levels of it, does not mean you settle for the next women, and accept her by rationalizing that she is flawed, there are degrees, and you have to decide whether you can live with this level of incompatibility.<P>foregiveness is fine, more power to it, some people can do it, others can't, but that is not the point. the point is that there are alot more options available, one should take the time to explore them, and uncover for themselves, what's best for them, not that they are best for the XS. that's an ego driven decision to think that you are the best for yor X. if you look very careful, and with lots of scrutiny of FOO issues, personality, etc, you will find lots of incompatibilities that some people don't want to put up with. Why force them to? why force yourself to, if you can find someone with alot more compatibility? the world is full of billions of people, the odds are in our favor, and their favor. . . <P>I believe you are only looking at the good times, and need to look at the complete picture for yourself and your relationship. The up to date situation, the situation that people's FOO's issues change as they age, because people change as they age, they become more true to themselves.<P>So get out there, and start taking some interest in finding the most compatible mate there is, if you want another one to last. you can't make what you want out of someone if it isn't there already. and you have to be very, very perceptive to understand what you can't see, meaning hidden red flags. . . . and there are plenty of hidden time bombs that you just don't know about.<P>You should try to maximize the probability of happiness by finding the most compatible, and they have already shown us that they are not very compatible with us because they don't have the temperment to weather long term relationships with us.<P>Mike, you can be nice and tough minded, and you can be nice and walked on also, take your pick, but both people are nice, just one is happier. . . which are you?<BR>

WhenIfindthetime,<P>I see where you are coming from and I do agree with a lot of what you say. But you also need to look at the marriage as a whole before you simply throw it out and look for a newer, better one. <P>You make a point about finding someone who is more compatible to you, and no offense, but where does that stop? Personally, I believe that had a lot to do with my X's thinking - She did not date many people before me, so she did not have much to compare me to. So off she went to look for someone who is better than me "for her" - more compatible. The "Grass is Greener" mentality.<P>The only problem with that line of thinking is how do you know when you have found the most compatible person for you? Where does it stop? So many spouses become the WS for that exact reason - they think they can find someone better. And they keep searching.<P>I am pretty sure you are familiar with Shawn's story. If you are you know that his marriage did not contain the major marriage enders that exist in other relationships - no abuse, no addictions, no cruelty, no cheating. It was more confusion on the part of his X.<P>Maybe I am loyal to a fault sometimes. But it does not really bother me. NO one WALKS all over me - I don't stand for that kind of behavior. But if a friend needs someone to help in the middle of the night - they know who they can call. As far as I am concerned, I have been dating/meeting other women, just as I did before I met and married my wife. I agree with you that you need to "look" a while before you settle for just one person for the rest of your life.<P>But what if you found that person and you made a lifelong commitment to them? What if you looked and looked and when you met her it just 'clicked'? Then later on during your marriage you find out that she has problems that date back before you were even in the picture - do you forget your love and just 'move-on' because she has problems? Not very Christ-Like if you ask me. What if it was some kind of illness she fell sick with? Like cancer? Do you follow Darwinian principles and leave her for a more healthy mate? If we were simply animals that would be the thing to do - but we are not just animals - we have souls, we have feelings and emotions.<P>Again since I can't talk for Shawn, I can only use my situation - for me I never met anyone in my life with whom I felt more of a "fit" with than my wife. We just 'clicked'. Now you are thinking "then why did she leave?" and that is a good question to which I don't have an answer for.<P>I'm not saying Shawn should just "take her back" with no question whatsoever. What I am saying is that if this is the beginning of "the fog" lifting - If she realizes that the marriage was not the cause for her unhappiness - If she asks for a second chance AND if she is sincere in wanting to try again, then why not try? There are a lot of "ifs" here and it is such a touchy situation. But just as you say I used a sweeping generalization to argue that he should try again, be careful that you don't rely on sweeping generalizations to justify not "trying again".<P>If someone makes a mistake however big it is and truly apologizes and asks for forgiveness, AND is willing to work on a new relationship then I think if you still "love" that person (and only you can answer that honestly), then you owe it to yourself to at least see if there is a chance to try again.<P>Divorce to me is nothing more than a legal piece of paper. I don't sit around pining for my X. I miss her - true. But life has gone on and will continue to move ahead. But if our paths should ever cross again, I would not just keep walking because of what she did to me. <P>But that is just me....<P>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

In the simplest terms possible, my ex and I went out to dinner the other night and talked for 2 hours. During that conversation she told me many things, including that she is not happy with her life right now. She admitted to being rash in her decisions and she was sorry for what she had put me through. She also told me that she misses me and misses the life that we had together. I asked her if she regretted getting divorced and if she thought it was a mistake. Her response was that it didn’t matter what she thought, because what is done is done and we can’t go backward with our lives.<P>Honestly, I have no idea what will happen with this whole situation, nor do I know at this point if “us” is the best option. What I do know is this……for the first time in a year, I had dinner with my friend. Not my wife, not my ex-wife, not the woman who broke my heart and not the stranger she had become. The other night I had dinner with the woman I feel in love with, the one I married.<P>She has issues. I know that now, and I knew it then. But even with those issues, and mine, we wanted to grow old together. We had a dream and we were living it. The truth of the matter is that if she hadn’t made the decision to leave last year, I would not be having this discussion because I wouldn’t be here. I never wanted the divorce and never thought it was the answer. Maybe I was right? Maybe not?<P>Mike and Tom, you both brought up some very valid points, some of which even took the words right out of my mouth. Mistakes were made in our marriage, but I would like to think that we can all learn from our mistakes and grow as a result. I know that I have bettered myself in the past year and I realize that this growth is a process and that I will still make mistakes, but then I learn from them! Chances are that my ex has not gone through the same growth as I have, but I’m sure this time on her own has opened her eyes to the real world so she too has grown. Now the question becomes if these two “new” people are still compatible and still desirable to one another in way which warrants further exploration? We could spend some time together and realize that we really have grown apart from each other in the past year in a way that would make both admit that being apart was the best thing. We could also rediscover that love and understanding which kept us together for 7 years as well. Only time will tell.<P>I am not to the point where I can say that I want her back as my wife, but I do want her as my friend. There has been a lot of hurt and damage over the past year, but because I am willing to move forward and forgive, then a friendship is not an unreasonable want. I’m not looking beyond a friendship anywhere right now because I’m not ready. And as Tom pointed out, she hasn’t been able to tell me “why” she did this? She can’t because she doesn’t know. She needs to figure out why she is not a happy person and then she needs to face that. As her friend, it upsets me to see her miserable and I want her to be healthy. Once she is happy with herself, then we can see if we are still happy together.<P>Sad_but_true,<BR>I graduated from KU back in ’93 and I’m a die-hard KU fan (obviously!)<P>For the record, cOOker is also an alum and Lost Husband is from the great state of Kansas as well!<BR>

<B>Shawn</B>, well said <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Mike and Tom, you both brought up some very valid points, some of which even took the words right out of my mouth. Mistakes were made in our marriage, but I would like to think that we can all learn from our mistakes and grow as a result. I know that I have bettered myself in the past year and I realize that this growth is a process and that I will still make mistakes, but then I learn from them! Chances are that my ex has not gone through the same growth as I have, but I’m sure this time on her own has opened her eyes to the real world so she too has grown. Now the question becomes if these two “new” people are still compatible and still desirable to one another in way which warrants further exploration? We could spend some time together and realize that we really have grown apart from each other in the past year in a way that would make both admit that being apart was the best thing. We could also rediscover that love and understanding which kept us together for 7 years as well. Only time will tell.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think I'm in a similar boat as you... no PAs... but I've changed and H says too little too late. I'm not as far in the process as you but would hate it if later he says "I made a mistake" but that's got to be his conclusion.<P>You seem to be very rational in your process here... prayers to you and your XW. <P><B>Mike and Tom</B>, you guys are incredible in your words and wisdom... thanks for taking the time to articulate your thoughts on the Board... <P>Cheers!<P><P>------------------<BR><I>As iron sharpens iron, so does one wo/man sharpen another...</I> Prov 27:17

nicole,<P>the reason why we are so incredible is that we both have made just about all the mistakes possible, but we learn from them, by thinking, debating, and tossing them out against others, seeing what sticks, and then rethinking what doesn't.<P>Mike makes a very good point:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> If someone makes a mistake however big it is and truly apologizes and asks for forgiveness, AND is willing to work on a new relationship then I think if you still "love" that person (and only you can answer that honestly), then you owe it to yourself to at least see if there is a chance to try again. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I agree, and was willing to do that, and do the work, but only if the person does so in a very reasonable time period. What happens if it becomes years between the time the WS leaves and returns, both of you become better people. WS may come back because the grass really isn't greener, or in other words, noone has found her attractive, and she still wants someone, but how has she changed? how have you changed? are the new people really compatible? what if the WS <B> says </B> she forgives, but never really does. . . the mistakes are still there. . . .<P>my point is there is a whole big world out there, full of tons of better people, and even though <B> we, and me included, </B> thought the relationship could be fixed, apparently there is disagreement with severe lack of POJA, and from there we can't move forward. it comes down to compatibility, and there wasn't as much in reality as we perceived/thought/felt there to be.<P>good luck mike,<P>you write such that you present yourself as a great person, and i would venture to say, there will be someone out there who you will find that will believe in you and you will believe in her.<P>TTFN,<P>tom<P>BTW, i just got off the phone with the X who divorced me, and couldn't stick with out mediated agreement, so now I get 12 hours more than the minimum visitation, and wouldn't let me have the kids if they are sick and she is working, (she leaves them home alone) and is very schedule driven, and when i don't give her what she thinks she deserves because she and her lawyertook me down to the minimum for the only reason being "that's what the judge would give," <BR>my X started getting spiteful, and nasty, and pompous, and then said she told herself to not be spiteful. . . . and admitted she was just being spiteful. . . .<P>I personally heard from a report from a well respected psych source, that after the age of 30, your personality is 95% fixed, and that it requires a major well intentioned effort to change. so that is also the basis for why there are so few re-marriages, and even then, not all of them make it. I knew of one, they did it just for the kids, because the kids were so hurt, and as soon as the kids left, they split, couldn't wait.<P>but i digress, . . . .<P>

Jayhawk, I have the same situation. In response to why we stick with unstable minds, it's because of love, unconditional love that we made a committment to when we took our vows. My wife is questioning her love for me, whether it's enough to sustain a marriage. Even went so far as to tell me how miserable she is. My head says that after 3 1/2 weeks of feeling unimportant and terribly forgotten about, I should leave and pick up the pieces of my life. But I can't, and I can't for only one reason...my heart. My heart says to hang onto her with all that I have, to continue to believe in the blessing that is her, to continue to feel that regardless of how she treats me, she is my angel and my godsend. You see, three years ago during a time when I had to make a decision to give my heart to her, a golden glow enveloped her and I realized that she was my soulmate, my chosen one. I have never lost that belief, not through three break-ups before marriage and now this separation after just 9 months on marriage. Perhaps I am a glutton for punishment, but I believe in her...not just the her of now, but the her of what she will be someday. I believe that she is the most special woman in the world even when she can't see it herself or doesn't want for me to see it. One's heart is a very powerful thing and the only thing that is keeping me sane as I exist right now...not live, but exist as the most important thing in my life is putting distance between us. I pray each night for strength to survive this struggle, but also for God to reach out to her and help her find the joy she seeks. I don't know if what I am doing is right or wrong, but it is what my heart allows so I feel I am doing what God intends for me to do. Will we survive and save our marriage? I guess I don't know. But my heart is telling me to never give up, even if my head is telling me to get on. The most distressing part of this is trying to reconcile your head against your heart...I'm finding it very impossible. Coping is impossible as well. But I have to believe in God's plan for me, whatever it is, and that either way, I will be a stronger person. I pray that I am allowed a final opportunity to be a stronger husband to my beautiful and wonderful wife.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:<BR><B> Mike, everyone is different, some people are emotionally stable, others are not. . . there is a fine line, and being separated or divorced may not change that.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>pardon me for jumping in- but no one is "emotionally stable." Emotions are not stable- they happen to you, often surprisingly and at the most inopportune times. It's why so many of us here have been told "I love you, but I'm not in love with you." The first love is not an emotion, is a choice or a fact or a decision- you care about your spouse, you know you are linked to him/her in a way that transcends emotion. The second love is an emotion, a passion that ebbs and flows, is inherently unstable and can't be the basis of any long-term relationship. <P>So, if Jayhawk93 and his X can see that difference, and act on it, I see a lot of promise in their relationship- even though neither is "emotionally stable."<P>Good luck to you, Jayhawk, keep an open mind and heart. I'm fairly sure I'll be divorced soon, but if my wife were to come to me as your X came to you, I'd be a happy man, and ready to listen and work.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by dabigtrain (edited July 26, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jayhawk 93:<BR><B>I asked her if she regretted getting divorced and if she thought it was a mistake. Her response was that it didn’t matter what she thought, because what is done is done and we can’t go backward with our lives.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Good. Tell her you want to go forward.<P>

dabigtrain, <BR>I did in a sense. I told her that I didn't want to go backward and if we wanted to, there was nothing stopping us from going forward. I'm just taking all of this day by day. It's the only way that I can do it and still keep myself somewhat protected.<P>I was always ready and willing to work on this relationship, it was my ex who walked without a fight.<P>no1bearfan,<BR>It sounds as if you have already been through a lot with your wife over the years which could mean that you are either a glutton for punishment, or you genuinely love your wife. If the second is true, then follow your heart. You will hear many people telling you to move on that you deserve better, but when it comes down to it, you have to decide what is best for you. If your wife is your soul mate and you are up for the struggles, heartache and possible rewards, then fight for what you want.<P>Honestly, the odds are probably not in your favor, but odds are just numbers after all! Keep the faith and pray for your happiness, what ever that may be.<P><BR>

Hey Jayhawk..<P>I have a side note question to ask ya. Has your ex dated anyone since your divorce and if she has, how did you take the news that she was dating another guy? I don't know how I will feel when my ex-wife tells me that she is dating another guy, but I think its better that I don't know any information like this.<P>Thanks<P>Bryan<BR><P>------------------<BR>BJK

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jayhawk 93:<BR><B>dabigtrain, <BR>I did in a sense. I told her that I didn't want to go backward and if we wanted to, there was nothing stopping us from going forward. I'm just taking all of this day by day. It's the only way that I can do it and still keep myself somewhat protected.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sounds sensible to me- eventually, if you want to go forward, you'll have to risk losing some of that protection, but for right now, it sounds like your head is on very straight.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I was always ready and willing to work on this relationship, it was my ex who walked without a fight.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My wife is in the process of walking without a fight. Maybe I'm so positive about your situation because I hope that's where we are sometime in the future, so everything I say probably has to be taken with a grain of salt. But good luck to you, nonetheless.<P>