... has to be mine. <P>The show so far: my wife moved out 8-4-01, five months after telling me she wanted to. I've described her reasons in other posts (the short version: "love but not in love have lost and need to find myself want to stay friends can't be dependent on you don't want to hurt you etc.").<P>So, we've been separated for 10 days. I've seen her on 9 of those days, mostly in the context of the kids, but with plenty of conversation and affection (no SF, damnitall!)between us. <BR>Sat - the actual move out day- went over to her house to read bedtime stories to the kids, then sat and had tea with her.<BR>Sun - dinner at her house<BR>Mon - kids at my house, but she came to take them to see my soccer game<BR>Tue - called me to get her keys out of her trunk- I got a six-pack of Sam Adams for my trouble<BR>Wed - kids at her house, no visit, but we talked on the phone<BR>Thu - out-of-town friends visit, we have a cookout at my house - see "how to handle old friends" thread for that strange story.<BR>Fri - kids back to my house, she asked to come over for dinner<BR>Sat - she, I, and kids took a bike ride to a nearby beach, had a picnic and played in the water.<BR>Sun - rode bikes again, this time out for dinner<BR>Mon - I had a soccer game, I told her I could get a babysitter, she volunteered to babysit at my house- came over at dinnertime, so shared a meal<BR>Tue - packing for trip (she and kids) to her mom's lake cabin<BR>Wed - came over early to pick up the kids for the trip and drop off my 3/8" drill she had borrowed. <P>jeez! I miscounted- that's 11 of 12 days!<BR>We even joke about it. I told her a telemarketer had called her, and she should be happy I hadn't given them her new number. She told me I should play it up so they'll never call back: "she left me! What the $#&& do you want?"<P>Now I won't see her and the kids till Sunday night when they get back from North Dakota- but that's no different from other times she has taken them there, and I'll talk to them and probably her on the phone every night.<P>As I said, the kids are in all of this, and when she's not with them, she obviously misses them- it will be a long time before she misses me. But we still seem to have a lot more contact than anyone I've ever heard of in the "separated and headed for divorce" stage, and we are friendly, not just civil, to one another. I'm glad- I don't want to be more separate from her, that's been our main problem for the last year or so- but I don't get it. I know a lot of spouses move out saying they want to stay friends- has anyone else ever actually done it? Does this behavior ring true to anyone? Anyone have any theories as to what could be going on in her head?<BR><p>[This message has been edited by dabigtrain (edited August 15, 2001).]

I was separated for over a year the first time and this time (a year later) he has been gone for about 2 weeks. We still talk (and argue) every day. He sees the kids every day. We do things as a family. We talk. Have dinner together. Last night him and I and a mutual friend went to the Barenaked Ladies concert....I love him and want him to come home. He says he loves me but it's over, but won't file. I'm just biding my time and letting him do what he feels he needs to do right now. <BR>Laura

Hi Dabigtrain,<P>I've said this before, but I'll say it again anyway....you are so LUCKY to have this much contact and good feeling....so MANY opportunities to Plan A....oh I wish it was like that for us all.<P>You keep doing whatever it is you're doing, because I'll tell you something. If she is there willing to spend that much time with you, it's not just for the kids. My h LOVES his kids, but only averages four hours a week with them. I'm here for maybe one of those hours.<P>YOU ARE SO LUCKY....don't think it's weird, just take it as opportunities for showing her how you can be.<P>Good luck, and keep posting, especially when you're alone...it helps!!!<P>Jacky

I know what you mean, my separation has been weird too. Sounds like you are still in the first couple of weeks. I am a month in now.<P> The first couple of weeks were nuts for us. I always leveled with her and told her I wasn't taking her back. I was ready to take her back once but she wouldn't promise to quit the affairs and that was the deal breaker.<BR> There have been 3 times early in the separation that we gave in to the wild emotions of this whole thing and things got very sexual.<BR> Now things have normalized more and we are stabilizing and coming to grips with reality. <BR> We try to go out to eat as a family once a week or so to show my son that he still has both of us behind him.<P> I would look for things to become more like a normal separation soon. Keep your focus on your kids and that will help. Today my wife balked about trying to help me get my child to football practice 2 times next week because I am super busy then and rather getting ugly, I was just very nice and tried to wind-up the call quickly so I wouldn't get emotional. I'll just have to lean on my mom again and try to get her to stay with me. In the mean time I'll look for ways to build support around me.<BR> You like I need to be thrilled for your kids that she is remaining in their life and try to cater to that. I haven't tried to hammer her because that is just going to push her away.<BR> <BR> Don't get your hopes up that you'll be great friends forever but the nicer you can keep things the better for everyone. I am very hopeful that I can keep her in my son's life forever although my parents are telling me not to get my hopes up for that.<BR> Your wife seems rather flighty and self-absorbed (and may be hiding an affair). Protect your kids if and when it comes to divorce any way you have to. Be as good as possible to her and hopefully she will see clearly where the kids should live if you divorce.<P>DS

I thought I was the only one going through this wierd seperation period. Seperated 5mos. I am the BS, H has contact with me everyday either by phone or comes by. We do things together and as a family but he still doesn't know what he wants. Make any sense? Yes we still have a very sexual relationship. He lives alone OW is someone he works with but has said since D-day that they are only friends. She to is married supposedly happily. I can't figure this mess out. I just want it to end one way or the other. I love my H probably more now than ever but it's to hard living this way. Don't get me wrong I love doing things with him and the kids and being a family but it's hard when he leaves. How does everyone handle that part of this wierd seperation?<BR>cybil

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Nina too:<BR>If she is there willing to spend that much time with you, it's not just for the kids.....don't think it's weird, just take it as opportunities for showing her how you can be.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's my plan, of course. I'm just confused because I don't know how to interpret her actions. I'm getting better at not psychoanalyzing, but I'm not all the way there yet.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>DeeplySad:<BR>I would look for things to become more like a normal separation soon.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You're probably right. Next Monday, she starts back to school (she's a professor at a local college), and she's already behind in her class preps and such. I'll post more on this thread then.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> more DeeplySad:<BR>Your wife seems rather flighty and self-absorbed (and may be hiding an affair)... Be as good as possible to her and hopefully she will see clearly where the kids should live if you divorce.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You're right, she is being extremely selfish right now and she's (at least) not being honest about an infatuation which I've described elsewhere. Strangely, that gives me hope- selfishness and dishonesty are "not like her," so there's a good chance she'll come out of it someday. Whether I'll still be around is tough to say- who knows how long I can keep this up- but for the while, there's hope even in the middle of this senseless mess.<P>As for "where the kids should live," I'll say this- the only thing I'm sure would turn our divorce (if it comes to that) ugly would be either of us asking for full custody, because neither of us could stand "one night a week and every other weekend."<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>cybil:<BR>We do things together and as a family but he still doesn't know what he wants. Make any sense? Yes we still have a very sexual relationship. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Interesting- that's got to be a guy thing. My wife claims no sexual feeling toward me at all- which makes sense, since she also claims no emotional connection, and I've met very few women who can have sex without that (actually, I can't think of one I've met). Whereas men can be a little more, um, detached about it. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>more cybil:<BR>How does everyone handle that part of this wierd seperation?<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The thing I keep telling myself is that my wife doesn't really know what she wants. She doesn't say it that way, like some WS do, but that's the distinct impression I get. Sounds like your H is the same way right now.

DBT,<P>I noticed you also live in the great state of MN the other day and I went back and read some of your posts trying to figure out what is going on with your wife-I couldn't until I read this post!!<P>Please take what I have to say with a grain of salt because I obviously can't guarantee that I am right, but I've seen this scenario a few times before, and before I forget, I urge you to read and post a little bit over on the EN forum. I think on the divorcing forum you are getting advice from the people who have already been through your current demise (which is good) but on EN you are with people you are currently going through the same stuff, and the experts that chime in over there really know what they are talking about (JL, Mike C2, Kam6318, etc.)<P>Anyway, here goes: "the I love you but am not in love with you" speech is almost always attributed to an affair, I'm sorry to say that, but that is how it is. It is not original, almost every WS says it, and I think there must be some sort of "Affairs for Dummies" book out there that tells them to say it or something because it seems that they all do.<P>As far as being in contact with her and friendly since the separation, most WS's like to do that-it enables them to keep the door at home open while they decide if the affair is what they really want. In essense, they can have their cake and eat it too! <P>I am a recipient of "the speech" and did find out my H. was having an affair. Unfortunately I found out six months after the affair started and H's brain was totally fried because of it. The affair has stopped, H. has not been able to commit to the marriage, he refused to leave the house, and after a year of playing his games, we are off to divorce land. He used to be an honest guy, but of course the lies were frequent and full blown during his affair, and they have continued long past the affair. Believe me, the sooner you discover an affair, the better your chances are of saving your marriage! <P>Your situation mirrors a guy who posted mostly on EN the same time I did last year. He doesn't post much anymore, but I think he still lurks from time to time on EN and Divorcing forums and I think he could give you some great advice if you posted directly to him-his user name is "A Good Guy". His wife was having an affair, moved out to separate and then tried to do all the family stuff still, basically it reminded me 100% of your situation-he too received "the speech".<P>I hope I'm wrong and you are not dealing with an affair, but please keep your eyes and ears open!<P>Good luck!<p>[This message has been edited by Wifeofcop (edited August 16, 2001).]

wifeofcop:<BR>Thanks for your reply and suggestions, and for the gentle way you're trying to break the bad news to me. But I'm already aware that my wife is in EA land- I even know the guy she's pursuing and how basically unavailable he is. But we haven't had D-Day yet, so I'm still riding it out- and keeping my eyes and ears open, as you suggest. I'm not sure what a confrontation would accomplish at this point, other than to anger her and drive her farther away.<P>I was expecting that she wanted out to clear the decks, so to speak- get me out of the way- which is why I've been a little confused by her actions. Of course, I've been confused by her actions for almost a year now. It's very helpful to read responses like yours, from people who have been in similar situations.<P>I will start lurking and searching in "emotional needs" to see what I can find there. Thanks for that suggestion as well.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dabigtrain:<BR><B><BR>Thanks for your reply and suggestions, and for the gentle way you're trying to break the bad news to me. But I'm already aware that my wife is in EA land- I even know the guy she's pursuing and how basically unavailable he is. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You are very welcome, some people get offended because they think that their beloved spouse would never be capable of such horrific actions-I was one of those people, and I am sure that the time I wasted by not confronting the suspected affair contributed to my impending divorce.<P>You say the guy is "basically unavailable" but who really knows? The OW in my H's affair was married and has a four year old daughter, so she should have been unavailable too, right along with my H. and your W. Besides, a one-sided EA I think would need some fuel to add to the fire to keep it going, and to have your wife's behavior continue. I think it it were totally one sided on your wife's part, it would get old and boring very quickly, not to mention I don't think it would warrant your wife separating from you. Sorry to rain on your parade twice in one day!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dabigtrain:<BR><B>I'm not sure what a confrontation would accomplish at this point, other than to anger her and drive her farther away.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Actually, Dr. Harley is a believer that by confronting the affair you are helping to end it. Affairs thrive on secrecy, and once the secrecy is broken, the affair usually begins to die a natural death. If it is not one-sided, the other person begins to fear what would happen if you told his friends, family, and co-workers (especially if they work together) and it begins the downward spiral to death. Not only that, but while your wife is in the affair, your Plan A is only depositing about 10 cents on the dollar into her love bank. Your Plan A after confronting her will be much more effective because she will know you know the horrible truth and yet you are still kind, loving, and wanting to be her H.<P>Have you counseled with Dr. Harley? If not, you should. I feel you are at a very pivital point and could use some educated direction. Even one session with him helped me tremendously-I highly recommend it!<P>Good luck and I look forward to reading about your progress!<p>[This message has been edited by Wifeofcop (edited August 16, 2001).]

By the way- <P>She and the kids have been 1000 miles away at her mother's cabin since Wednesday. They've called each day (most recently, half an hour ago while I'm here at work), I've talked to the kids for a few minutes, and my wife for three or four times as long. "How's your day- are you getting lots of work done- don't forget to water the garden and those plants in the front porch- I'm going to patch a wall in my bedroom tonight- you might be able to match the texture by sponging it- MIL is reading Charlotte's Web to D- took down a dead limb over the cabin- etc. etc. etc."<P>I'm just going with it. I will not psychoanalyze. I will not psychoanalyze. I will not psychoanalyze.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dabigtrain:<BR><B>I'm just going with it. I will not psychoanalyze. I will not psychoanalyze. I will not psychoanalyze.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>DBT,<P>Believe me, I know what you mean about psychoanalyzing, it is soooooo hard NOT to do! I used to hang on every word my H. would say and analyize it 10 different ways and in the end, he never remembered what he had said anyway!<P>When my H. would (and still does) rewrite our history, it would make me so mad and upset-Dr. Harley's advice was for me to treat him as though he is drunk during those conversations. You would expect stupid comments from a drunk person and you most likely wouldn't feel it is worth your time to argue with a drunk person either, so that is what I did and I must admit that it did work! It also doesn't make you feel quite as bad either!<P>Hang in there DBT, I noticed you posted on EN, I hope people over there respond! <P>Also, you might want to take a look over on GQ and Recovery every once in a while, just to acclimate yourself in case you need it, and to see what happens in infidelity situations. When I first came to MB I would force myself to read "on those forums" and was so very thankful I didn't have to deal with what those people were dealing with-alot of their stories were so unbelievable...little did I know!! The time I spent on those forums though was well worth my while because it helped me to see that my H's affair was textbook and so were his horrible words and actions.

wifeofacop- I had to laugh at your observation that Plan A while your spouse is in an A only yields 10 cents on the dollar! I think in my case a penny per dollar was the truth! LOL My H also gave me the speech, moved out to live in OW"s condo, filed for D on me and yet came home nearly every night to see the kids for several hrs even ate dinner here most nights, shovelled our snow, and was still wearing his wedding ring.( go figure!) Talk about an insane separation!I spent every day trying to analyze his every word and was totally confused most of the time! This lasted about 2 mo before he finally came out of denial land and re-commited to me. I stayed in Plan A during all this time thinking it wasnt having much impact but in truth it really did. He cancelled he divorce papers and we are reconciling. I am proof positive that Plan A can work and the fact that a WS comes home often for ANY reason is good and makes Plan A worth it worth it worth it!!!!lifeismessy

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lifeismessy:<BR>I stayed in Plan A during all this time thinking it wasnt having much impact but in truth it really did. He cancelled he divorce papers and we are reconciling. I am proof positive that Plan A can work and the fact that a WS comes home often for ANY reason is good and makes Plan A worth it worth it worth it!!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Keep posting, messy, I love to hear success stories...<P>

Sunday: she drove home from the lake and got here about 7:30- we had already arranged that the kids could sleep here, even though it's "her" weekend. We all had dinner, put the kids to bed, and then she went to her house.<P>Monday: her first day back at the college- she left early to take our daughter to the allergist. Arrived as I was starting dinner, I asked if she wanted to stay, and she accepted. <P>Tuesday: late afternoon, I was home with kids. We went to a wading pool in a public park across the street. When we got home, there was a message from her asking if she could come over at the kids' bedtime to read stories again- and I called and said come on over. After the kids were tucked in, we sat and discussed some practical stuff- allergist's notes, when to get together (!) to do back to school shopping, going over kid's calendars, etc.- and about her orientation meetings at the college.<P>14 of 18 days "separated." I will not psycho-analyze, I will not psycho-analyze, I will not psycho-analyze...<p>[This message has been edited by dabigtrain (edited August 21, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dabigtrain:<BR><B>I will not psycho-analyze, I will not psycho-analyze, I will not psycho-analyze...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Okay, then <I>I</I> will. <P>This "separation" is not about your wife wanting to be <I>away</I> from you, it is about her feeling <I>pressure</I>. Your wife feels more in control of her life under these current circumstances.<P>I don't know whether the pressure your wife was feeling was coming from you or from herself (or both). Her feelings may or may not have anything to do with you. Wherever the pressure was coming from, though, it seems to me that it is better for her to be without it (at least for now), as her feeling pressured can only be an obstacle to Plan A.<BR>

train- Your W sounds SO much like the way my H was during his intense EA/PA. I really think she will eventually move back in with you as long as you dont pressure her or insist she make a quick decision. Those heavy duty 'romantic' hypnotic type of affairs your W and my H was in dont stay that way indefinitely. Life is not static- I think your W will eventually come to see that its not worth giving up her kids/marriage/house etc over.But dont pressure her during this time or have heavy duty discussions about your marriage future.If her coming over so often is hard for you emotionally then work out a weekly schedule for awhile. If she brings up D and you dont want it- tell her that you're against D , that it would be very harmful to the kids and then refuse to discuss it further because believe me discussing it will get you into a fight quick. Do things for yourself right now to stop psycho analyzing HER. I bought all new clothes, made some new friends and lived at Starbucks to think while H was so mixed up. Think of your W as temporarily insane. Because she is. lifeismessy

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume:<BR>Okay, then <I>I</I> will. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Be my guest... somebody has to!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>This "separation" is not about your wife wanting to be <I>away</I> from you, it is about her feeling <I>pressure</I>. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That is one of the most hopeful assessments of this situation I've heard- it makes it almost sound like a "controlled separation," which it isn't. But it has the ring of truth to it. This started (in March!)with her saying she didn't think I really loved her. I said, well, that's a problem because I do, and I need to show it to you differently. But when I tried, she said it didn't move her, it just made her feel "pressured" - pressured to respond in kind when her feelings weren't there. <P>She has a great deal of pressure in her life. She's a community college theater professor, so she's overworked- late nights grading papers, rehearsals at odd hours, etc. She has huge student loan debts from her 14-year MA/PhD odysessy. We have two children, 6 and 3, who we love madly but who take a lot of energy. We have no extended family in the area, so dropping the kids at Grandma's and going away for an overnight isn't an option, and babysitters are hard to come by. And her husband, who she thinks should be a professional director, is not successful in that field, and she sometimes says she feels she's holding me back. <P>So, yeah, her life- and our marriage- had gotten totally out of whack. So, perhaps she "feels more in control of her life under these current circumstances," even though any objective viewer would have to say she now has greater financial pressure and less physical support at home. Thursday is her first day of classes, and she'll have the kids that AM- I'm going to have to remind my daughter to be cooperative that morning.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Wherever the pressure was coming from, though, it seems to me that it is better for her to be without it (at least for now), as her feeling pressured can only be an obstacle to Plan A.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thanks for the advice; it reaffirms what I've been doing. I don't pressure her for resolution, I smile when I see her, I do what I can for her and leave her alone when I can. I only obsess about this in private!<p>[This message has been edited by dabigtrain (edited August 22, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lifeismessy:<BR>I really think she will eventually move back in with you as long as you dont pressure her or insist she make a quick decision. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thanks for your encouragement. I realized a long time ago that a quick resolution to this is not what I want- because a quick resolution would be divorce. So I'm just riding the tiger.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If her coming over so often is hard for you emotionally then work out a weekly schedule for awhile.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So far, it hasn't been. It's weird, yes, but I like seeing her. Over the past month or so, she has thanked me for "hanging in there" with her, and for "being so brave" about this. She's told me I'm "one in a million." Of course, she has also talked about needing her independence, and how an average uncontested divorce takes about four months in Minnesota. If she heads farther down the D path, it will get more difficult, but so far, I'm OK.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If she brings up D and you dont want it- tell her that you're against D , that it would be very harmful to the kids and then refuse to discuss it further because believe me discussing it will get you into a fight quick. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I blew this temporarily when she put the offer on the house- that was my last breakdown. I made an appointment with a lawyer- when I told her I was doing that, she got very quiet and upset, even though she had been talking D with her lawyer friend. At the time, I thought she was worried about an ugly D (remember, she wants to "stay friends"); since I'm not psychoanalyzing her anymore, I'm not going to hypothesize about what else might have been underneath there. I'll let Gnome de Plume handle that.<P>Anyway, I got back on track pretty quickly. In counseling, I said I didn't want a divorce, nor did I feel the need for it in order to get on with my life- that I knew I had issues to work on myself and that would be my focus in our separation. Since then, I've been strict plan A.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Do things for yourself right now to stop psycho analyzing HER. I bought all new clothes, made some new friends and lived at Starbucks to think while H was so mixed up. Think of your W as temporarily insane. Because she is. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thanks for your advice and attention. I appreciate it.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dabigtrain:<BR><B>she has also talked about needing her independence, and how an average uncontested divorce takes about four months in Minnesota. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I just had a visit with my attorney yesterday and she reiterated to me that if the divorce is totally uncontested, once you turn your paperwork in along with a check, it will take about two weeks to draft the documents, then you go in and sign everything (she indicated to me that most people consider themselves divorced once the papers are signed by both spouses), from there it takes four to six weeks to be signed off on and filed by the County...so actually it can be totally over with in as little as six weeks...amazing, isn't it?<P>

DBT... hang in there... ride it out (as you say you'll do)... you've been doing so well so far. <P>I think GDP has it the nail on the head (for me too)... it's about gaining control over her own life and perhaps you've been scapegoated - you are the one who denied her those freedoms when in fact, she had every right to pursue that path on her own.<P>Steve H. told me that keep you head high... it makes it very hard for these *types* to divorce when there isn't obvious reason. A friendly divorce... hmmm, just don't be afraid of the divorce. Don't be afraid of the legality of it... it's just a the legal aspect of marriage ending... you've got the emotional and spiritual side to consider also.<P>You're doing so well! BUT, I can understand your frustration... try having an in-house duplex situation... H comes into my area all of the time (I've told him he's welcome) and I'm trying to make it a welcome place for him... all the while, giving him his space upstairs... which is covered with unpacked boxes. It's very hard to put on the smile all the time when I really HATE that our marriage is breaking down. It's been over one year now since he's told me he wants to separate and get divorced. I'm trying desparately not to LB and to not give him a reason... but I'm not Mother Teresa now either...<P>The advice I gave you, I'm trying to recall that daily myself. ALONG with reading my bible... Psalm 119 especially rings Truth to me... I'm trying to put the Word of God into my heart and believe in HIS love for me and not analyze my life according to the what's and how's the ups and downs of my marital relationship.<P>Cheers friend!<BR>Nicole<P>------------------<BR><I>"You will deceive yourself into believing that if people, circumstances, and events had been different, your pain would not exist...Your pain is the concrete way in which you participate in the pain of humanity."</I> <BR>~ Henri Nouwen ~