Don't those words mean anything to anyone anymore???? What is it with everyone's willingness to give up on committments we made to our spouses? We didn't say, "I will until....." We promised, "I will." Period. This throw away society is ruining marriages. Now, we just want to throw our spouses away too. Well, the grass isn't always greener. Sooner or later, we just have to stop running away because soon there won't be anywhere to run. Our spouses may not be perfect, not even close, but they are ours, and we are theirs, as we have promised in front of God and everyone. I guess that doesn't mean anything anymore.<BR>

Lark, <P>To very many couples today wedding vows don't hardly mean as much, I find that weddings are blown way out of proportion the gown, the bridal party the rings , the ceremony , and ofcourse the hall & reception take precidence over the actual vows. Sometimes people are married because oops someone got pregnant and no that was not suppost to happen but it did so the next step is marriage, not because they want to but because they have to. I love my husband till death do us part, but and i say but some couples today don't even think that the whole spiritual part of the wedding is as important as the party that is to follow.<P>mishi

I never thought I'd say this, but I agree. My father split when my mother was 39 -- it was the sixties, and he darn well wanted a piece of it. They divorced 2 years later.<P>I had given up on ever marrying when I met my H. We lived together 2 years, and marriage was his idea, not mine, even though he'd always given lip service to being opposed to lifetime commitments.<P>I've stuck with this guy through a lot of bad things. There have been times when I felt that if he left, I wouldn't care. Then I fell in love with him again last year, and then this business with his "friend", and now I think I would do a lot to keep my marriage. It DOES build, when you have shared experiences.<P>My mother is now over 20 years into her second marriage, and she says she'd like to leave because she's not "happy." I wish I could convince her that she has to WORK at a marriage, that it just doesn't happen.

Well I am sure some of you will not agree what my therapist once told me about wedding vows. I think some if you think about it though does make since. She once said that when wedding vows were created people did not live as long. There for when we live as long as we do not forever is along time. I never thought of it that way. So if you think about it and were married say 30 years and something happened then you did stay married along time. Well like I said some of you might think its nuts but I tend to agree with some of what she told me. Take care all.

I could believe that if the statistics didn't show that most marriages that do end in divorce end before year 10. That would make more sense if most of the marriages that ended in divorce happened after the 30th anniversary. That's not the case. So, I think that's hogwash, no offense to your therapist. I just think this throw away society of ours and this ME generation is the reason. Too many people thinking that the grass is greener.

Lark.........<P> Well to me forever is along time still. And maybe for some people the grass is greener. We never know that. We don't have crystal balls gosh knows I wish I did. I guess to many people now a days stay together for convenice and kids. That don't know what they are really missing inside till they take a good look like I did. I know alot of divorces might only last a few years but some might have good reason too. Like abuse verbally and physically. I know about the verbal part. Its not fun and yes you can forgive but I will never forget. The words he used were so hurtful. And then the ones that get physically abused now come on they have a reason to want out. I would say those to instances I could see grass be greener on the other side. And another what about a spouse who is abusing there kids? You think they should stay too? People don't think about all these reasons. And molestation oh yeh now there I would want to stay with my spouse if that ever happened. So wake up dear Lark did you ever think of all those reasons people get divorced? Not everybody has that great marriage what ever that would be. Thanks for the post back though.

Lark,<BR> I'm with you on this one,sorry everybody.<BR> My h and I renewed our vows may 98 in my church, Sept. 98 I discovered h most recent affair, DEVISTATING!!! I gave serious thought to leaving partly because when we were renewing vows the affair was in full swing. But I kept hearing in my heart, never mind what he ment or was doing when those vows were renewed, Di You mean them did YOU mean sickness, health, richer or poorer. ect.. This is my view, I am responsible before GOD for the vows I took, his breaking his are between him and God, as long as he stay's I stay if he leaves again then I have no obligation. I am a believer,converted after marriage and my h isn't soo, the biblical stand on this is clear. I'm not trying to preach. Marriage is ment to be forever period the end , there may be times seperation is called for ie abuse, drug,alcohol abusthings like that but divorce is to be considered as the last step. Oh yes one more thing, the first marriage was between Adam and Eve, go to Genises, see how long they lived<BR> ok I'm done <BR>Deb

Deb........<P> Don't never say never. I have learned that. I don't care what people say. If you are not happy and you drift and feel you live with a stranger well then I think its best to move on after they have tryed. And another if you ever found out a spouse was abusing your kids sexually, physically then you bet I would leave them in a heart beat. God might want people to live by there vows but I don't think God wants his child unhappy either. He put us here to be as happy as we can and when things change and you are not happy anymore with how your life is then I believe in my heart he would want you to change it. Thats how I see it. No am not making excuses for some couples they don't try to get it back. But for some we do and for along time. So thats my opinion and sorry if you don't agree with me there.

Wonder,<BR> Hey we can agree to disagree, sexual abuse of a child isn't reason for divorce, it's reason for "LOrana Time", for arrest, for a good old fashioned day long killing, after that THEN he can be divorced. Look I thought we were talking about affairs, infidelity, other marital issues, NOBODY should stay if there is abuse.But things can be worked on people can get help, of course i don't consider child molesters as normal people<BR>ok, and I was speaking of me, my own situation, Look none of us will agree with every word "spoken " by everyone here, thats<BR>ok, peace, friends, I just think too many people get married with the idea "if it dosen't "feel" right i can get a divorce".<BR><P>------------------<BR>Deb<BR>------------------------<BR>You can't have a rainbow without the rain<P><BR>

Wonder,<P>Oh believe me, Wonder, I am quite awake. Are you? (By the way, you have a way of sounding very condescending, but I will not hold it against you because I realize you are hurting and probably don't mean to sound that way.) Also, you say people stay together these days, "for the kids"? I disagree. People DON'T stay together for the kids or anything else these days. Maybe in the olden days they did, but not now. Maybe you should wake up to the fact that 60% of marriages end in divorce, and 80% of SECOND MARRIAGES end in divorce. (Guess the grass ISN'T greener, huh?) Marriage is a joke, I guess, and I don't know why anyone even bothers anymore. Everyone has all these expectations and when the marriage doesn't end up "perfect," everyone is ready to bail.<P>I know there is abuse, and of course in those cases divorce may be the only logical answer. But it's a lot different when people are just holding onto resentment against each other for things that have been said and done in the past. This is vengeful. People need to let go of all of that AND FORGIVE in order to move on. (Which it sounds like you haven't.) Holding onto it is just a way to justify wanting to divorce.<P>Not again,<P>I completely agree with you. To me, marriage is a vow to the other person, but even more than that, marriage is a vow to God to love, honor and cherish that person til death do you part, not until that person doesn't "float your boat" anymore, or until that person starts to get on your nerves.

Lark............<P> I have forgiven for your imformation. But to forget those awful abusive words thats another story. This is the 90s you act like everybody should have a Cinderalla marriage. Well dear its not like that. Maybe yours is and if thats true I am happy for you. One person in another post said it best to me. Sometimes you change and drift so far apart there is no beginning to go back to. And I disagree with you saying people use to stay for kids. I have the last 2 years and I am still here. I am not as bitter as I once was. But there alot of things I lost inside myself. You might now understand that but I know alot of women who do. In fact men can get lost within also. So please don't judge me as you don't know what my life is or has been. I am just saying what I feel. And also what I have seen through the years with other marriages.

my only addition here (trying not to get into any fights with anyone else in the forum here) is a quote from a very good male friend of mine and my H's....<P>he said to me one day not long ago (in the midst of a discussion about what he could do to "help" my H and i get back together):<P>"guys are jerks. we always think that the grass is greener on the other side. we don't realize, though, that it's because the dogs always crap over there."<P>i had a good laugh.... much needed at the time!

Lark - <BR>I am staying together "for the kids" only right now. Its the "only" reason I am in my marriage. I don't think and I know that the grass isn't greener on the Other Side - but in fact, I'm not looking for "another side". I want some peace in my life. I want to walk around my house "not" on eggshells, I want my kids to know that they don't have to listen to a smart-alec stepfather for the rest of their lives, I want to enjoy my family and not wake up every day of my life wondering why I cant convince my husband to go to counseling (though he agrees and won't follow thru) and why I can't get him to do family things (and we do them without him). I don't WANT another husband - I have one now that isn't a husband - why look for another? <BR>but this man and I have had a child who is 3 and thinks he hung the moon whom he DOES love very deeply (there IS one person that means something to him!) - and he is the reason that I sit in this miserable marriage. The one that only ME has worked on. I have counseled, talked, tried for 7 darned years and every time I think I get one step ahead - we backslide 15 steps. Its frustrating and ruining my life. But you know what? If I do like everyone here states and say "for better or worse" which I am right now - I know that the rest of my life will be the "worse" and my 2 older children will grow to hate this life. So yes, I am staying FOR THE KIDS only. Its sad - but I have no choice right now.

Cndy.........<P><BR> Here here girl. Now maybe these people can see how we have a dream marriage right? Thats a great statment you said in your post BTW about kids. They to in time can see and feel resentment what kind of life is that for them to grow up in. Sounds like your husband ver selfish. I feel like you do who says you need another man? We find ourselves first off. All I know is what ever you decide to do stay or go if you or I should go one day I kow I cannot feel anymore alone inside then I have in the past 2 years. One girlfriend said it well she feels hollow. Take care hon keep me informed its nice to to responed with you.

Wonder - <BR>I like hearing from you too! Your right - who wouldn't give a million for that Cinderella marriage?? Many men work (and some hard) at their marriages; some don't. Mine doesn't. You can only sit stale for so long and live on hopes that one day that man will wake up and say "hey, its time I work on my marriage and family" AFTER the kids have come to resent him, AFTER he has torn our lives to threads, AFTER he has refused to make life livable. You can't live "sanely" in a one-sided marriage for too long. I admit, I have stayed longer than I've needed to - hoping for that eye-opener - but with the children growing up and seeing things and recognizing things - its getting more and more difficult. If these people think "we" think divorce is so easy - boy are they wrong! If it were the "easy" way out, I'd of divorced years ago. Years. But, no, I have hung on an prayed for something and hoped for something to happen to change us. It probably WILL happen one day - but what? At the risk of ruining 3 more lives that have to grow up and marry only to see that marriages are like ours? Terrible. No way. You TEACH your children what they want to live - I don't want my kids to live the way their stepfather is raising them - non loving or supportive. Thats wrong and I don't want them raising their children or having their marriages this way. If they have learned a lesson so far its that their mother has done nothing but bust her butt making everyone happy, them as well as my husband only to see that it hasn't worked - but they HAVE seen some HARD work from me with him. They know I have tried. They have seen me try over and over to make us all a family. But I will not live for them to resent the fact that I stayed and lived a miserable life because he's awalking timebomb. Kids don't need it these days. I think its one of the reasons they have the problems they do today. Yes, they need structure and family units - but at what cost? Showing them unhappiness? Showing them that mom is hurt? Mom can't make a one-sided marriage work? That familes DONT eat dinner together? Dont go to the movies or church together? That families are afraid of dad? Uh-uh. Not me. I'm already considering asking my husband to leave because 7 years has been too long for him not to want to give this family a shot. Its time for the talk. We are - as mothers - also responsible for our childrens souls - and if we let that go to pot because of a man who wants no part of family - what are we teaching them? When your own children look you in the eyes and say "mom, why do you put up with him" - you KNOW its time. I believe in for better or for worse - but when the other party believes with you - not against you. So you stay? You stay thru the worse and then your kids have problems and start doing things that we all act shocked about??? And we wonder why? Because we didnt stick up for them and support them rather than trying to baby a man who doesn't care - sorry, but for better or worse can only go so far. My husband is an adult and he has CHOSEN the path he will take for his life; my children haven't and my job is to teach them the right path to follow - the good path, and hopefully it will be one that wasn't like mine because of what I put up with because of "for better or worse".

Wonder,<P>Who said anything about Cinderella? I distinctly said that people bail because they think marriage is perfect. No marriage is perfect. ALL marriages have problems! That's my point. But you don't try to jump ship when the problems come, you deal with them.<P>You're right, I don't know your life. How would I? And you don't know mine. AND I'M NOT JUDGING YOU!!!! How in the world did you come up with that? If anything, you are the one judging me. You have no idea what I've been through and what I've had to put up with through the years either. Fortunately for me, my spouse and I are working it out rather than try to find greener pastures. I consider myself very lucky I guess.<P>And who says you have to "forget" the past? That is not a requirement, but you DO have to forgive, and the definition of forgiveness is LETTING GO OF ALL RESENTMENT. It doesn't sound like you've done that. Even though your H is no longer an alcoholic, you still hold it against him. Can't say as I blame you, but it does show that you haven't forgiven him. And maybe he hasn't forgiven you, either, which is why he still acts like a jerk. I feel for you, I do. <P>Cndy,<P>Hey, if you're staying for the kids, then I believe you. There's always an exception to the rule. The statistics are pretty clear, 60% of first marriages end in divorce and 80% of second marriages do. So, there aren't alot of people doing as you do. Most people get out of dodge. <P>But, I don't know if staying for the kids if you really feel there is no hope is good. I think children need to be raised in a home where the parents love and respect each other.<P>To both of you, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A CINDERELLA MARRIAGE. Marriage is what you make it. Marriage is BOTH spouses giving 100%. There are always going to be storms, but a marriage means working through those storms until the sun comes out again. I just think that too many people have unrealistic expectations and that is why people become so disillusioned. Both of you sound like you have legitimate concerns about your H's, and I really hope both of those jerks open their eyes soon before they lose you (or I guess they already have?).<P>Wonder, just because someone doesn't flat out agree with everything you say, don't start in with the defensiveness. I am not judging you (and hope you're not judging me), I just look at life a different way than you do. Don't be so quick to discount an opposing point of view. Sometimes we learn the most from people we least likely expect to learn from.<P>Good luck.

Partial Quote:<P> "Fortunately for me, my spouse and I... "<P>There's the difference, your spouse is working *with* you. <P>I agree with everything you are saying, that with today's throwaway attitude, alot of times, when things get tough, it seems that rather than stick with the commitment you made, people just throw in the towel.<P>Well, personally, I've stuck with this for many years... tried very hard to identify the problems, work on them, work on myself. Thought is was all my fault for quite a while, thought if I just did "this" or "that", that things would get better. I believe in the commitment of marriage, I want to stick with it, but I can't make things any better by myself. I think wonder and cndy probably felt the same way about that commitment too... or they wouldn't have stuck it out so long, and kept trying. Most people posting here wouldn't be posting if they weren't trying to find solutions.<P>I don't want to give up, but I also don't want to feel alone and taken for granted for the rest of my life, and I don't want my daughter to think that this dysfunctional marriage of ours is *normal*... I'd rather she have NO example than a BAD example. My husband has different definitions for things like "relationship", "marriage", "family", "commitment" than I do.<P>I don't want to give up, I want to honor my vows... for better or worse, in sickness and in health... but I need that commitment from him in return.<P>I'm happy for you that your husband is working *with* you on your marriage. I think most of us believe in sticking to our vows no matter what, but when our emotional and sometimes physical well being is in the balance, and our spouse is not willing to step up to the plate, and when we're forced to try to figure out what is *really* best for our children, we find ourselves backed into our corner.<P>It takes two equally committed partners to make a marriage work, and for both to find happiness with each other. My husband doesn't want a divorce either, but he also doesn't want to do his part... so where does that leave me?<BR> <P>

Cndy..........<P> Hon want to move out me and you and get our own place with the kids LOL? I know what you are feeling believe me. Especially about how you want your kids to see marriages. My oldest there for awhile was afraid to come to me with things cause of me reactions. That hurt but I know cause he was scared when I was really depressed. I don't like my kids seeing us fight and argue. I really feel all the same things about kids that you wrote hon. Its been almost 2 years here and like I said hes better. But does that make up for my feelings lost for him nope. And BTW Lark I don't bring up the past about him and his drinking he does now. I told you I have forgave for the most part. Its me I resent at times for keeping things bottled up for so long. Take care CNDY think about the moving together LOL Hope ya at least smiled on that one.<P> YY.........<P> Hang in there keep us posted please. Sounds like you are going through about what we are. Please keep coming and responding with us.

Cndy..........<P> Hon want to move out me and you and get our own place with the kids LOL? I know what you are feeling believe me. Especially about how you want your kids to see marriages. My oldest there for awhile was afraid to come to me with things cause of me reactions. That hurt but I know cause he was scared when I was really depressed. I don't like my kids seeing us fight and argue. I really feel all the same things about kids that you wrote hon. Its been almost 2 years here and like I said hes better. But does that make up for my feelings lost for him nope. And BTW Lark I don't bring up the past about him and his drinking he does now. I told you I have forgave for the most part. Its me I resent at times for keeping things bottled up for so long. Take care CNDY think about the moving together LOL Hope ya at least smiled on that one.<P> YY.........<P> Hang in there keep us posted please. Sounds like you are going through about what we are. Please keep coming and responding with us.

YY,<P>You're right, it does take two to make or break a marriage. And it's quite apparent that too many spouses are in one-sided relationships. That is a horrible place to be in. (I speak from experience.) I feel for all of you in these terrible situations, I really do. I wish you happiness and peace.<P>Wonder,<P>I see that you no longer want to reply to me. I have noticed that even if someone politely disagrees with you or has another take on things, you just shut them out. Sometimes it is painful, but it helps to look at another's point of view. I'm willing to discuss this with you and I do see and understand your point. But just because I don't give my "stamp of approval" does not mean I don't understand. I hope you find happiness.