H. (who is WS) is moving out September 1st and refuses to tell me where he will be living, which is also where our three small children will be spending one night a week and every other weekend. I am trying very hard to be considerate and kind (buying him things I know he'll need and helping him pack) and he is being vile and nasty most of the time.<P>My main concern is the welfare of our children and I will do anything and everything to ensure that the children are in a safe environment and well taken care of. I will fight each and every issue that I don't think is in the children's best interests. I am the stable, responsible, and caring parent and H. is the fly by the seat of your pants kinda guy, rules are meant to be bent or broken. His counselor has told him that "his mental health sucks" and he told me just the other day that he is barely hanging on by a thread. His previous role as a stable father has recently turned into him keeping the kids out extra late, taking them to a July 4th festival at 9:30 Pm in their p.j.'s and stopping at a neighborhood park at 11:15 PM on their way home, skipping lunch but then buying them root beer floats instead, the list unfortunately goes on. Our middle child fell half way through an ice fishing hole last winter while in his care, and our oldest child saved our youngest child from falling into the lake across the street from our house while in his care as well. <P>Our divorce will be final by the time MEA school conferences roll around and it will be H's weekend to have the kiddies (ages 2, 5, and almost 7). He asked me if he can have them the Friday before and the Monday after so it will be a four day weekend for them. I told him I wasn't sure yet but I'd let him know. He told me he needs to know soon because he wants to take them on a mini vacation to the Wisconsin Dells (waterpark, playstuff, etc).<P>My heart sank just thinking about him alone with those three young kids for four days at a busy waterpark, and I then recall those words his counselor said, and his own words about barely hanging on. I told him I didn't think it is a great idea so soon after the divorce and I mentioned his unstable mental health and he, of course, became very irritated. He told me he can take them where ever he wants to when he has them. I told him that I'd sincerely like to hear what he counselor has to say. He said we will have a knock down, dragged out divorce if I involve his counselor.<P>Do you guys think I have valid concerns about his mental health and him taking the kids out of state for four days? Or do I just "bite the bullet" and hope they all come home alive and well? I am terrified just thinking about it all!<P><p>[This message has been edited by Wifeofcop (edited August 18, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wifeofcop:<BR><B>H. (who is WS) is moving out September 1st and refuses to tell me where he will be living, which is also where our three small children will be spending one night a week and every other weekend. I am trying very hard to be considerate and kind (buying him things I know he'll need and helping him pack) and he is being vile and nasty most of the time.<P>My main concern is the welfare of our children and I will do anything and everything to ensure that the children are in a safe environment and well taken care of. I will fight each and every issue that I don't think is in the children's best interests. I am the stable, responsible, and caring parent and H. is the fly by the seat of your pants kinda guy, rules are meant to be bent or broken. His counselor has told him that "his mental health sucks" and he told me just the other day that he is barely hanging on by a thread. His previous role as a stable father has recently turned into him keeping the kids out extra late, taking them to a July 4th festival at 9:30 Pm in their p.j.'s and stopping at a neighborhood park at 11:15 PM on their way home, skipping lunch but then buying them root beer floats instead, the list unfortunately goes on. Our middle child fell half way through an ice fishing hole last winter while in his care, and our oldest child saved our youngest child from falling into the lake across the street from our house while in his care as well. <P>Our divorce will be final by the time MEA school conferences roll around and it will be H's weekend to have the kiddies (ages 2, 5, and almost 7). He asked me if he can have them the Friday before and the Monday after so it will be a four day weekend for them. I told him I wasn't sure yet but I'd let him know. He told me he needs to know soon because he wants to take them on a mini vacation to the Wisconsin Dells (waterpark, playstuff, etc).<P>My heart sank just thinking about him alone with those three young kids for four days at a busy waterpark, and I then recall those words his counselor said, and his own words about barely hanging on. I told him I didn't think it is a great idea so soon after the divorce and I mentioned his unstable mental health and he, of course, became very irritated. He told me he can take them where ever he wants to when he has them. I told him that I'd sincerely like to hear what he counselor has to say. He said we will have a knock down, dragged out divorce if I involve his counselor.<P>Do you guys think I have valid concerns about his mental health and him taking the kids out of state for four days? I am terrified just thinking about it all!<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>From what you are saying, I'd be concerned especially with the younger children. I don't know what is allowed in your state but you may want to ask an attorney or the court about supervised visits until he can get some help or demonstrate a safe environment. Is there any history of violence? <BR>

As a lawyer explained it to me. (Texas law, not sure about your state). He cannot take the children from your presence if you tell him he cannot, and vice versa. You may want to keep the children with you at all times until the custody hearing, or file for temporary custody. Especially if he won't even tell you where he will be living, you do not know what kind of enviroment he will be taking the children in.

Ohio attorney here. Don't know anything about Texas law. But, I represent mostly women in divorce. Common sense advice first. As a resposible custodial parent(i think you folks use the term conservatorship or did at one time), you have a duty to know where your children are. If you don't have an attorney, get one. The court will make him disclose residence and phone I would assume-they certainly would here. Concerns expressed by you raise possibility of supervised visits-see an attorney although since your divorce will be final soon I have to assume you have one. Your primary concern is the health, safety and welfare of the children and that means you ahve to know where they are. I would guess most people in your shoes would face contempt charges before letting their kids go somewhere you have no clue where.

test

STBXOFWOC<P>That was pretty cowardly,<P>why don't you stand up to be counted with your opinion,<BR>instead of just showing up to let everyone know that you<BR>are watching, as if that is going to intimidate some of us, <B> not all of us. </B>

This will be my first solo post on MB. I know this forum is not intended for spouses to settle disputes but my spouse, Wife of Cop has aired just about all of our dirty laundry on this site. She idolizes Dr Harley and his practices as well as some of his cult followers whom WOC has confided in via email and almost found a new soul mate. My purpose of this post is not to anger, embarass or belittle my STBX, I am just tired of everything being so one sided and me being the evil one. <P>This site has been very helpful to WOC and has given her strength,courage and a new sense of self esteem which she needed to survive the terrible events in her life that I have subjected her to. It educated her to the experiences of so many couples out there. Ofcourse, I turn out to be the most evil, vile, ****er out there.<P>I am guilty of having an affair and keeping it from here for a very long time. I am guilty of lying to her to cover up my affair and everything that goes along with it. She is also guilty of lying to cover up her associations on the computer as well as all her investigative efforts to catch me. Since D-Day I have looked for the burning desire to make things work but I have yet to find it. The stipulations WOC layed down based on the Harley experience for me to make the marriage work are unacceptable, she has run my life long enough. The stipulations along with her constant threat of holding the sword over my head was too much. My counselor told me to move out, get my act together, and deal with some issues in my past. He told me that I did not have any balance in my life and that my mental health sucked. He said I have had controlling women in my life and that I married my mother. I disputed him on that one but he is the counselor right???<P>Since WOC now believes in Management (Decision Making) by Committee (MB Forum members) lets throw a few things out there for opinions.<P>Opinion #1<BR>WOC feel that it is in the best interest of the children that I do not move out until after school starts (9/4). This is mainly due to the fact that I will no longer see them on Tue/Thur morning when I am normally with them at home. For the last 1-2 weeks and most likely until 9/4 WOC takes every opportunity to start arguments in the presence of the children during the little amount of time I have at home with them. She follows me into the driveway when I am taking the kids fishing, at the dinner table my one night home etc... The current environment sucks for the children and in my eyes it is all initiated by WOC. I take a few of her comments then when I can't take anymore I give her a comments back then I am the evil one who initiated the whole thing.<BR> Move now or 9/4???<P>Opinion 2<BR>Is it evil of me to take my dresser and nightstand and break up a set rather than replacing at a cost of approximately $800-900? She has offered me a dresser & night stand which is 13 yrs old, made of particle board, scratched up and one of the drawers is broken.<BR> Reasonable or Unreasonable????<P>Opinion 3<BR>Same situation as above. I would like to take the bookcases that attach to entertainment center. The ent center would stand alone and the bookcases would not even be missed. I have not asked for the LR set, or the computer or roll top desk or anything that the children would use.<BR> Reasonable or Unreasonable??<P>Opinion 4 PLEASE RESPOND<BR>Since fireworks display are seasonal in MN is there anything wrong with taking your children to them at 9:30pm in their pj's. How about running to the slide at a park one block from the house for a quick slide in your jammies before bed. Am I the worst parent in the world for this. WOC feels that the kids will think such an activity was crazy when they have children. It was a blast!!!<BR> Reasonable or Way out there???<P>Opinion 5<BR>Is visitation on the 1st & 3rd weekend for ease of scheduling due to work oblibations and my forgetfullness unreasonable? Not to mention I have to work due to WOC requesting my entire salary (Yes, 100% of my income from my 40 hr a week job for CS and Maintenance) Which will require me to continue 60+ hour weeks just to survive.<BR> Reasonable or Unreasonable<P>Opinion 6<BR>Should I also have WOC mental health evaluated and her parental ability questioned after she asked me if the gun in the safe for home security is loaded as it has been for the last 5 yrs. After removing all the bullets from the house I learned she made keys to my take home work car (and stole things as well) where my duty weapon is often stored. She made comments about wishing I were dead and that she were dead. How about that for mental health. She has stated she does not need counseling but yet gives me a grocery list of what I should talk about. Lately she has a Dr Jekyl and Mr. Hide mentality. When she slips off to never-never land something triggers in her mind and she comes after me with both barrells. <BR>Yes one child slipped one leg into an ice fishing hole and the youngest almost fell off the dock, I should have been holding their hands the entire time but that is impractical. Should I scream unsafe parent when she does not put bug spray or sunscreen on them and they get bit or burnt??? Tit for tat benefits no one.<BR> Should wife get counseling for mental health?????<P>Opinion 7<BR>Since I always see the children on Tue mornings while WOC works, is it unreasonable for me to request that as visitation time. Two of our 3 kids will be in school I will have the 2.5 year old. WOC feelings are since the youngest will start preschool next year (On tuesdays of course) it will be too hard on her not to see me then?<BR> Reasonable or Unreasonable???<P>Opinion 8<BR> Should I butt out and let her vent and trash me at every opportunity on this site and never defend myself or what little esteem I have left??? <P><BR>Sorry for the extreme length of this post. These are some big issue for us right now. I do not see that these things are that unreasonable. WOC feels that everything I do is out of extreme hate and thoughts of making life hard on her and the kids. I love my children and my entire being use to revolve around WOC however it no longer does. I was instructed (by my Counselor) to move out/separate from her and give her the quick divorce if that is what she needed and that is what she has requested. I cannot blame her in the least. Thanks for letting me vent for a change. We are both interested in the well being of our children and of each other and that is why I am willing to leave. I would like to have a non-confrontational relationship with WOC, one that is flexible to best fit the needs of the children and us as parents. <P>Wish us luck on the long road ahead.

WhenIfindthetime<BR>Just let me test my password first. I know you have a vested interest.

This is not the place for the two of you to discuss these issues. How about the both of you getting some family counseling to deal with these visitation issues? As far as dividing up your possesions that is left to the court to decide.<P>Why do you feel it's necessary to defend yourself STBXWOC? If you aren't doing anything wrong as you claim then there should be no reason to defend yourself. Besides what do you care about what anyone thinks on this board. The fact that you follow your W around and harrass her in this manner means you are the one with the control problem! She want you out of her life except when it comes to the kids what's so hard about that for you to understand? Once you are divorced you will have the freedom you've always wanted.

I know I am going to regret replying on this thread, but here goes.<P>WOC & STBX...I really hope that you two can work together for the good of the kids during the divorce. I know it must be very hard to see the other's point of view, but just a tiny bit of understanding can go a long way, so I hope you will try. <P>Stuff like whether to break up the furniture set or not has no inherent right or wrong, it is a matter of working together to come to a mutually acceptable solution. If you cannot both set aside your hurt and anger and do so, maybe you could involve a mediator???<P>As to the kids, yeah, I would take small kids to a special event in their PJ's, and tuck 'em in when I get home. I would not make a practice of it, or do it on a school nite, etc... Root beer floats--same thing, they make a poor every day diet, but again, I have been known to let kids have a treat instead of lunch once in a blue moon for a special day. I can't see that that is a crime to let kids do something silly once in a while, in moderation. As for the ice fishing, none of us here in cyberspace can tell how or why that happened, or if STBX is normally a careful parent or not. It is reasonable for both of you to know where the kids will be living when they are with the other, to discuss saftey issues calmly, etc.<P>I'd suggest that a good family counselor might help you both come to some guidelines on what is reasonable and agreed-upon behavior with the kids-- keeping in mind that their health & well-being is the overriding goal.<P>Good luck to you both, and to your kids.<P>Kathi<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by kam6318 (edited August 20, 2001).]

STBXWOC-<BR>Hear, hear, KAM6318!<P>This kind of situation is fraught with emotions of all types, and it is easy to see why one party or another can feel like a pincushion. But the Board is also anonymous- we don't know who you are, where you work, or anything that would betray your identity, so why is what ends up being generic discussion that threatening? As you know, property settlements are always characterized by early overblown demands, and child support is a pretty standard formula based on how many kids there are.<P>The two of you should take the kids to church together, and experience some family time without acrimony; if you love them, you will stop using them as battering rams to punish each other. I honestly have never seen any comments here by WOC that were pure trashing of STBXWOC; I pray that you will all be able to relax a little bit and think of the children.<P>As usual, KAM is the queen bee here with the level head.

STBX of WOC,<P>it is very difficult to judge your behaviors or your wife's behaviors through the words when one tries to compare them. However, the more eloquent you type, the more you type to search for answers, the more you will be trusted as honest after awhile. Most everything in cyberspace is taken at face value from <B> trust </B> that is built up over time from each poster's questions and responses.<P>If you want a black and white answer, generally that is very difficult since the world is not black and white, there are shades of acceptable. Your professional world is made up of black and white laws and rules and policies and procedures, and the personal world does not have as many, especially within relationships and personality types.<P>A solution you and WOC face is that you <B> BOTH </B> need individual counseling. The reason why is that you both are hurting from prior conflicts and events in your life, some beyond your control, others within your control if you choose to use that control. Now, the problem you each have is that you have each <B> destroyed </B> each other's trust for each other, and each of you needs to learn how to rebuild it, or if you know how, you need to begin to exhibit it without reason for her to take it away. <P>Trust is not gained in one day, nor is it a right, nor does an educational certificate guarantee it, nor is it gained by a judge's decision, it is earned within each person by examples of it, and it is damaged by examples of not having it. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Now you have first hand experience with that concept from your training: how do you decide whether you trust your partner or not? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR>To a woman and a mother, to allow HER children to be taken care of by someone she does not trust, who has given her reason to not be trusted, is very difficult, in fact it is very threatening to her <B> fact of life, like it or not. </B><P>So, if you want WOC to be all smiles when your turn to <B> parent </B> the children happens, you need to earn her trust, as well as professional counselor's trust. <B> you DO NOT decide her level of trust, you DO NOT get to decide the counselor's opinion of your emotional health. </B> you only get to exhibit trustworth behavior, and then hope that the other person can accept it.<P>so now you understand what a standoff looks like, you have equal power with WOC, and unless you, who has made the more offensive mistakes, begins to overcome the loss of trust from your past behavior, your standoff will continue. Your future is in your hands, as is everyone else's, make your choices with the FUTURE OUTCOME as the goal.<P>WIFTTy

I'm going to go on the record by saying that very seldom is one person in a relationship the absolute WRONG one... or the absolute RIGHT one. <P>Many times, both people are genuinely good people that for what ever reason took a bad path. This bad path leads to so many walls and barriers being thrown up that it is hard to ever see the other person as 'good' again.<P>You anticipated the environment to be hostile towards you and totally 100% for your wife. This is not true. It is a trajedy when a marriage falls into the state that yours has. It is horrible when two good people move so far apart that they can't see the good anymore.<P>I have no doubt that you are a good person. WOC is also a good person. No fingers need be pointed... no blame need be cast. When you feel malice towards the other person, close your eyes and remembere the night you got married.<P>There was happiness there before. Let it go and do what is best for the kids... without malice on either side.<P>Just my thoughts....<P>Wilham

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by STBXOFWOC:<BR><B>She idolizes Dr Harley and his practices as well as some of his cult followers whom WOC has confided in via email and almost found a new soul mate. My purpose of this post is not to anger, embarass or belittle my STBX, I am just tired of everything being so one sided and me being the evil one.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Welcome to MB again, and I want to say that I am happy to see that you have been prompted to seek support by posting here rather than just lurk for all the months you have. I truly hope this site can be even half as helpful to you as it has been to me! It is no secret to anyone here that I do idolize those people here who make such valiant efforts to better and/or save their marriages. It is also no secret that I did have an EA with someone who posted on the forum while you were having your PA. I am not proud of that fact, but it happened nonetheless, and in hindsight, I can see now just how needy I was while I was having absolutely no needs met in our marriage. I didn't even realize at the time it was happening that it was an EA, but after reading SAA, I realized it was and we both put an immediate stop to it. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by STBXOFWOC:<B>Opinion #1<BR>She follows me into the driveway when I am taking the kids fishing, at the dinner table my one night home etc... The current environment sucks for the children and in my eyes it is all initiated by WOC. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm sorry you feel as though I start all of our disagreements, but I just don't see it that way. I try so hard to NOT argue in front of the children and to not cry. It is still sometimes difficult for me when you do and say things that prove so blatantly that you don't care about me in the least. My husband, when told of my possible cancer woes, told me "I could comfort you or try to be nice, but why the hell should I?" I've asked him if he could help me out from time to time by mowing the lawn and the very day I followed him in the driveway he had asked what I was going to do while he went fishing with the kiddies and I replied that I was going to wash clothes, tidy up the house, and clean and vacuum the pool. He added mowing the lawn to my to-do list and I asked him if he would help me and he said he will never mow the lawn again. It was then that I became angry and sad and began to cry. I have been having panic attacks and lose my breath and it scares me, but it became apparent to me that day that it was of no concern to my H. and that is still extremely hard for me to accept and deal with.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by STBXOFWOC:<B>Opinion 2<BR>Is it evil of me to take my dresser and nightstand and break up a set rather than replacing at a cost of approximately $800-900? She has offered me a dresser & night stand which is 13 yrs old, made of particle board, scratched up and one of the drawers is broken.<BR> Reasonable or Unreasonable????</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I've told H. he can have anything in the house that he wants and I am the first to admit that I may have errored on that one because I never thought he would want to break up sets of furniture when we clearly have enough to furnish both households without breaking up matching items. I also failed to tell him that I prefer him to not take items that were B-Day or X-Mas gifts to ME, and also items that were left to me in wills from favorite aunts. When I expressed my concern to him, he stated that his atty informed him that he is entitled to half of our belongings and that he can take first pick. As far as HIS nightstand and dresser, he stated in a fit of rage that he'll be damned if he'll leave those so some guy can put condoms in HIS nightstand and underwear in HIS dresser.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by STBXOFWOC:<B>Opinion 8<BR>Should I butt out and let her vent and trash me at every opportunity on this site and never defend myself or what little esteem I have left??? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm truly sorry if you feel as though I have been trashing you on MB, if I have it certainly has not been my intent. It is scary for me to compare the person you are now to the person you used to be. I feel as though I have valid concerns for our children when you refuse to tell me where it is you will be living, and the comments from both you and your counselor regarding your current mental instability leave me wondering what is truly best for our children at this point. We may disagree on several issues but the common thread that holds us together is the fact that we BOTH want what it best for our children. <P>I want nothing more than to envision the future being one where you are mentally stable and a complete person once again who spends lots of time with his children. You have always been an awesome father and our children adore you, so please don't rock the boat with your mental health issues by threatening to not tell me where you will be living. Please don't threaten to take the kids out of state by yourself on a mini vacation when your counselor declares "your mental health sucks" and you claim that you "are barely hanging on by a thread". I don't think I am alone when I say that those words and actions would send chills up any parent's spine, I am sure yours too if our roles were currently reversed.<P>I hope you continue to feel comfortable posting here and to listen to the great things people here have to say. I truly hope you get the opportunity to someday implement the teachings here in a lasting relationship with someone. What you learn on MB will benefit you greatly, as it has me throughout our entire demise. No matter what happens, please know I am willing to work on all our disagreeing issues and will eagerly compromise on everything except those issues concerning the happiness, safety, and welfare of our children, for those I will fight tooth and nail for what I believe is best for them!<P>I do wish you well H, I have forgiven you for your affair, and want desperately to see you become a complete person once again for your own sake and for that of our children!<P><p>[This message has been edited by Wifeofcop (edited August 20, 2001).]

WOC,<P>in my opinion, you must let STBXOFWOC find his answers about himself WITHOUT you. you must let him tell his side of the story, so that MB can discuss his point of view without your rewrite/interference/comments, etc. let him find out by himself.<P><B> You TWO BOTH NEED COUNSELING! </B><P>both of you will not get anywhere with each other without being able to respect the other's point of view, you two are very angry with each other, and it stems from clashes of personality types and flaws, and a few other problems related to egos.<P>there is no need to rehash stuff here, you can do that in person, or in personal emails. please allow each to find their own answers by themselves.<P>STBXOFWOC,<P>this is WOC's post. you have hijacked her post. You need to start your own post to get answers to your own questions/get opinions on your own situation/questions.<P>its no wonder you two are heading where you are going!<P>

I think the most important thing that I could say to either of you is that you should find the best inference you can for any behavior of the other that puzzles or angers you. <P>Some folks have said this is not the place to solve your marital problems. I don't think either of you should be discouraged from writing to each other. I can understand STBXWOC's feelings that this forum has betrayed him, and WOC's feeling that this forum is her refuge. But now that it's all out in the open, it's the best chance for both to be gentle with each other and write things the other will read, rather than scream things the other will shut down and refuse to process. <P>A lot of what happened to you two comes with the territory of the profession mentioned in both your usernames. Try not to blame each other for what a job can do to a person. <P>Maybe love between the two of you can never come back. But forgiveness, cooperation, understanding ... I don't think those are out of reach.

deleted...see below.<p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited August 21, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by STBXOFWOC:<BR><B><BR>This site has been very helpful to WOC and has given her strength,courage and a new sense of self esteem which she needed to survive the terrible events in her life that I have subjected her to. It educated her to the experiences of so many couples out there. Ofcourse, I turn out to be the most evil, vile, ****er out there. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Personally, since I started coming here when my H started to feel the "Not so much in love" feeling (1 yr ago), this site is a reality check for me. No, I dont post much anymore. I do like to keep up on some people I have become interested in their lives and have learned so much. I also come here for "secure support". Being in the L.E. type family, it wouldn't be, lets say "correct" or "atypical" for my marriage to be suffering. I hate the stereotypes on the divorce rate among L.E. marriages. So, it is not to far out there for anyone to appreciate the privacy I have here @MB concidering I DO NOT share my marriage issues with ANYONE ELSE. Respect that in your wife.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>I am guilty of having an affair and keeping it from here for a very long time. I am guilty of lying to her to cover up my affair and everything that goes along with it. She is also guilty of lying to cover up her associations on the computer as well as all her investigative efforts to catch me. Since D-Day I have looked for the burning desire to make things work but I have yet to find it. The stipulations WOC layed down based on the Harley experience for me to make the marriage work are unacceptable, she has run my life long enough. The stipulations along with her constant threat of holding the sword over my head was too much. My counselor told me to move out, get my act together, and deal with some issues in my past. He told me that I did not have any balance in my life and that my mental health sucked. He said I have had controlling women in my life and that I married my mother. I disputed him on that one but he is the counselor right??? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You say you are guilty. Are you remorseful? Ashamed? Sorry?<BR>And, if you knew anything about the recovery of an A, these request from your W are typical with any BS. I have to tell you also, that I think your choice of a counselor was out of convenience, not your willingness to save your marriage. The one thing my H and I knew about finding a counselor was to find one that didnt want to resolve conflict, but restore the love in the marriage. Not all counselors are right. You should realize that.....<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Opinion #1<BR>WOC feel that it is in the best interest of the children that I do not move out until after school starts (9/4). This is mainly due to the fact that I will no longer see them on Tue/Thur morning when I am normally with them at home. For the last 1-2 weeks and most likely until 9/4 WOC takes every opportunity to start arguments in the presence of the children during the little amount of time I have at home with them. She follows me into the driveway when I am taking the kids fishing, at the dinner table my one night home etc... The current environment sucks for the children and in my eyes it is all initiated by WOC. I take a few of her comments then when I can't take anymore I give her a comments back then I am the evil one who initiated the whole thing.<BR> Move now or 9/4???</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>From what I know, this was not all initiated by your W. You had a share in this too. This is all a result of you and your W's actions over a huge amount of time. Take your own responsibilities into account. This goes back to what I believe is so accurate about MikeC2's post. Please read that again.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Opinion 2<BR>Is it evil of me to take my dresser and nightstand and break up a set rather than replacing at a cost of approximately $800-900? She has offered me a dresser & night stand which is 13 yrs old, made of particle board, scratched up and one of the drawers is broken.<BR> Reasonable or Unreasonable???? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think that if you are willing to move out on your own, than all you should take is what is 100% yours, unless your W is willing to settle on other property. I never had, nor will feel sorry for any person leaving the home with nothing. The home should stay as stable as it can for sake of the children. They have enough on their plates than to have to see their actual home being picked apart. Plus, STBXOFWOC, this is petty arguments.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Opinion 3<BR>Same situation as above. I would like to take the bookcases that attach to entertainment center. The ent center would stand alone and the bookcases would not even be missed. I have not asked for the LR set, or the computer or roll top desk or anything that the children would use.<BR> Reasonable or Unreasonable?? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I cant answer this. <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Opinion 4 PLEASE RESPOND<BR>Since fireworks display are seasonal in MN is there anything wrong with taking your children to them at 9:30pm in their pj's. How about running to the slide at a park one block from the house for a quick slide in your jammies before bed. Am I the worst parent in the world for this. WOC feels that the kids will think such an activity was crazy when they have children. It was a blast!!!<BR> Reasonable or Way out there??? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This needs mediation. Parental resolution<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Opinion 5<BR>Is visitation on the 1st & 3rd weekend for ease of scheduling due to work oblibations and my forgetfullness unreasonable? Not to mention I have to work due to WOC requesting my entire salary (Yes, 100% of my income from my 40 hr a week job for CS and Maintenance) Which will require me to continue 60+ hour weeks just to survive.<BR> Reasonable or Unreasonable </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I would probably do the same to my H. I cannot imagine being a part time parent and accept that my H would be. All or nothing in my book. That is just me. <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Opinion 6<BR>Should I also have WOC mental health evaluated and her parental ability questioned after she asked me if the gun in the safe for home security is loaded as it has been for the last 5 yrs. After removing all the bullets from the house I learned she made keys to my take home work car (and stole things as well) where my duty weapon is often stored. She made comments about wishing I were dead and that she were dead. How about that for mental health. She has stated she does not need counseling but yet gives me a grocery list of what I should talk about. Lately she has a Dr Jekyl and Mr. Hide mentality. When she slips off to never-never land something triggers in her mind and she comes after me with both barrells. <BR>Yes one child slipped one leg into an ice fishing hole and the youngest almost fell off the dock, I should have been holding their hands the entire time but that is impractical. Should I scream unsafe parent when she does not put bug spray or sunscreen on them and they get bit or burnt??? Tit for tat benefits no one.<BR> Should wife get counseling for mental health????? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I sure wish I hadn't read this. Unfortunately slinging mud is only going make things messier. But, in MHO, when I am even the least amount frusterated with my H, the first thing I need to blame is of course his job. His job is the reason for all our problems. Not likely, but a good way to point anger or blame. I can't say that WOC is "mentally sane". I know, I have been where she has been. It is not a pretty place. This is where you are not being emphathetic to her. She is losing her marriage. Her family unit. Any spouse goes through a normal "death" period. You grieve, you deny, you become irrational, and you accept. <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Opinion 8<BR> Should I butt out and let her vent and trash me at every opportunity on this site and never defend myself or what little esteem I have left??? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Grin and bear it. She comes here for support. You are also welcome as you have seen in the past and present. This site is a learning tool and even if marriages arent salvagable, it helps individually as well.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KalGrl:<BR><B>This is not the place for the two of you to discuss these issues. How about the both of you getting some family counseling to deal with these visitation issues? As far as dividing up your possesions that is left to the court to decide. <P>Why do you feel it's necessary to defend yourself STBXWOC? If you aren't doing anything wrong as you claim then there should be no reason to defend yourself.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm afraid I have to disagree. While family counseling is <I>highly</I> advisable here, I think participation by both parties in this forum could be very helpful all around.<P>And it seems to me that someone who believes he has been falsely maligned would have very <I>strong</I> reasons to defend himself.<BR>

WOC and STBXofWOC, if the two of you could manage to stop the blame game and look for reasonable solutions to your situation instead, I think you would both be a lot happier.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by STBXOFWOC:<BR><B>This will be my first solo post on MB. I know this forum is not intended for spouses to settle disputes but my spouse, Wife of Cop has aired just about all of our dirty laundry on this site. She idolizes Dr Harley and his practices as well as some of his cult followers whom WOC has confided in via email and almost found a new soul mate. My purpose of this post is not to anger, embarass or belittle my STBX, I am just tired of everything being so one sided and me being the evil one.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I much prefer hearing both sides myself, although I think it's interesting how often the sides actually corroborate each other on those rare occasions when we <I>do</I> get to hear both sides. Once the <I>feelings</I> get separated out, that is.<P>STBXofWOC, it's interesting that you say your purpose "is not to anger, embarass or belittle my STBX". I haven't really gotten the impression that your wife had that purpose either, and I didn't think she intended to portray you as "the evil one" any more than you claim to portray her that way.<P>I am intrigued by your characterization of this site as a "cult". What Dr. Harley offers are practical relationship techniques that quite often work, but no one claims that they are magical or foolproof. Personally, I think of a "cult" as offering a dangerously limited world view, one that brainwashes and preys on its followers. I would be very interested to hear what you find dangerous or objectionable about Harley's principles.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>This site has been very helpful to WOC and has given her strength,courage and a new sense of self esteem which she needed to survive the terrible events in her life that I have subjected her to. It educated her to the experiences of so many couples out there. Ofcourse, I turn out to be the most evil, vile, ****er out there.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Er, how much of this site have you read, really? I think most of us here see our spouses as being trapped in a "fog", not as being irredeemably evil. There is a very big difference between condemning an action and condemning a person.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I am guilty of having an affair and keeping it from here for a very long time. I am guilty of lying to her to cover up my affair and everything that goes along with it. She is also guilty of lying to cover up her associations on the computer as well as all her investigative efforts to catch me.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Leaving aside the question of whether these are or are not comparable situations, I do not believe my own actions can be justified or excused because someone else did something wrong or inappropriate. If I did something wrong, I did something wrong, <I>period</I>, and shame on me if I don't own up to it without pointing fingers elsewhere. Forgiveness does not require evening the score, and I don't think anyone here <I>cares</I> who is more worthy of blame. It's far more important where you're going than where you've been.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Since D-Day I have looked for the burning desire to make things work but I have yet to find it.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So? What do you need a "burning desire" for? Do you go to work every day because you feel a "burning desire" to do so? Do you wait to put gas in your car until you feel a "burning desire" to do so?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>The stipulations WOC layed down based on the Harley experience for me to make the marriage work are unacceptable, she has run my life long enough. The stipulations along with her constant threat of holding the sword over my head was too much.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, I'd certainly agree that it <I>would</I> be unacceptable for your wife to run your life, and that it would be destructive for your wife to hold a "sword" over your head. But your choice of words is awfully abstract. What precisely were the objectionable stipulations, and what precisely is the threat? How precisely has WOC run your life?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>My counselor told me to move out, get my act together, and deal with some issues in my past. He told me that I did not have any balance in my life and that my mental health sucked. He said I have had controlling women in my life and that I married my mother. I disputed him on that one but he is the counselor right???</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, counselors aren't infallible, but in this case I have no reason to dispute either his recommendation or his evaluation. I'm afraid you're wrong if you think everyone here is going to jump on you and say "Go back to your wife right this minute you bad, bad man; you're wife did nothing to you and everything is all your fault." I for one am a pretty big believer in the potential efficacy of a separation.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Since WOC now believes in Management (Decision Making) by Committee (MB Forum members) lets throw a few things out there for opinions.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>There are worse things you could do than seek the advice of people who have been through similar hells.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Opinion #1<BR>WOC feel that it is in the best interest of the children that I do not move out until after school starts (9/4). This is mainly due to the fact that I will no longer see them on Tue/Thur morning when I am normally with them at home. For the last 1-2 weeks and most likely until 9/4 WOC takes every opportunity to start arguments in the presence of the children during the little amount of time I have at home with them. She follows me into the driveway when I am taking the kids fishing, at the dinner table my one night home etc... The current environment sucks for the children and in my eyes it is all initiated by WOC. I take a few of her comments then when I can't take anymore I give her a comments back then I am the evil one who initiated the whole thing.<BR>Move now or 9/4???</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Frankly, I don't think it matters much when you move out. I think it matters a whole lot more that you set helpful ground rules for your family, your relationship and your separation.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Opinion 2<BR>Is it evil of me to take my dresser and nightstand and break up a set rather than replacing at a cost of approximately $800-900? She has offered me a dresser & night stand which is 13 yrs old, made of particle board, scratched up and one of the drawers is broken.<BR>Reasonable or Unreasonable????<P>Opinion 3<BR>Same situation as above. I would like to take the bookcases that attach to entertainment center. The ent center would stand alone and the bookcases would not even be missed. I have not asked for the LR set, or the computer or roll top desk or anything that the children would use.<BR>Reasonable or Unreasonable??</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't see that it makes any difference. If you get divorced, the differing values should get taken care of in the property settlement.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Opinion 4 PLEASE RESPOND<BR>Since fireworks display are seasonal in MN is there anything wrong with taking your children to them at 9:30pm in their pj's. How about running to the slide at a park one block from the house for a quick slide in your jammies before bed. Am I the worst parent in the world for this. WOC feels that the kids will think such an activity was crazy when they have children. It was a blast!!!<BR>Reasonable or Way out there???</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Both. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Opinion 5<BR>Is visitation on the 1st & 3rd weekend for ease of scheduling due to work oblibations and my forgetfullness unreasonable? Not to mention I have to work due to WOC requesting my entire salary (Yes, 100% of my income from my 40 hr a week job for CS and Maintenance) Which will require me to continue 60+ hour weeks just to survive.<BR>Reasonable or Unreasonable</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If you don't like the way the legal system works (and who does, except the lawyers and those with enough money and power to manipulate the courts for their own purposes), then work out something on your own between the two of you. But the financial realities of separation and divorce aren't going to change just because you may <I>want</I> them to.<P>I don't know enough to say which of you may be being unreasonably obstinate. Quite possibly, it's both of you. Because there may well be no reasonable solution <I>at all</I>.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Opinion 6<BR>Should I also have WOC mental health evaluated and her parental ability questioned after she asked me if the gun in the safe for home security is loaded as it has been for the last 5 yrs. After removing all the bullets from the house I learned she made keys to my take home work car (and stole things as well) where my duty weapon is often stored. She made comments about wishing I were dead and that she were dead. How about that for mental health. She has stated she does not need counseling but yet gives me a grocery list of what I should talk about. Lately she has a Dr Jekyl and Mr. Hide mentality. When she slips off to never-never land something triggers in her mind and she comes after me with both barrells.<P>Yes one child slipped one leg into an ice fishing hole and the youngest almost fell off the dock, I should have been holding their hands the entire time but that is impractical. Should I scream unsafe parent when she does not put bug spray or sunscreen on them and they get bit or burnt??? Tit for tat benefits no one.<BR>Should wife get counseling for mental health?????</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The general rule of thumb is that the one who refuses counseling is quite likely in worse shape. It doesn't sound unreasonable for you to be concerned, just as it doesn't sound unreasonable for your wife to be concerned.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Opinion 7<BR>Since I always see the children on Tue mornings while WOC works, is it unreasonable for me to request that as visitation time. Two of our 3 kids will be in school I will have the 2.5 year old. WOC feelings are since the youngest will start preschool next year (On tuesdays of course) it will be too hard on her not to see me then?<BR>Reasonable or Unreasonable???</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sorry, I didn't follow this.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Opinion 8<BR>Should I butt out and let her vent and trash me at every opportunity on this site and never defend myself or what little esteem I have left???</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Like I said, I think you'd be better off getting into counseling together. But either way, I'm not going to vote for you to butt out.<BR>