Dear STXWOC,<P>I have not read the posts here, I read this thread on the other board EN.<BR>First let me say, I think you need a new therapist. A counselor is NEVER suppose to tell you what to do with your life, unless your life is in danger. Your counselor has told you to make life altering choices (divorce). A councelor is suppose to help YOU to come to conclusions, and then make sure that is what is best for you and your loved ones. You stated more than once your councelor told you this and told you that...I repeat they are NOT SUPPOSE TO TELL YOU anything, that is MALPRACTICE. My husband does not practice Psychiatry, but my baby brother does (this is not a MS prepared person this is a MD who did an extra 4 years speciality). This happened to a friend of mine, and she did divorce her cheating husband (cuz her counselor told her to), and she was so unhappy- she loved him and she split her family up based on the "professional" advice. well good news is they remarried, and file suit against the counselor. IF DOWN DEEP IN YOUR HEART YOU DO NOT WANT A DIVORCE (FORGET THE CRAP THAT OCCURRED WHILE GOING THROUGH THIS DIVORCE) alot of thing happen when you are doing something you really dont want. I have read your post and your W, and to me (new kid on the block) it just does not seem neither of you really want to divorce. YOU NEED TO FIND A NEW COUNSELOR and file a complaint against the one you have , if they are truly telling you what you should do.<BR>then you and your W should get into a good marriage counseling situation. For some strange reason I hear feelings between you. and you have 3 very good reasons you should at least try - EVERYONE makes a mistake, the point being just dont make the same mistake twice. Sorry if I am off base, But I am very strong on my comment on STBXWOC therapist (shame on them) Good Luck, and I hope you two can really look at what is important here - they need two strong and stable parents. AND MR COP if anyone knows that it should be you, you have to be dealing with kids that come from broken homes daily, how can you stop this from happening to your angels?? ask that counselor of yours - I know it on the medical side - some of my patients have been as young as 12 ( and all my patients are pregnant). work together, it is the only way

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Opinion 4 <B> PLEASE RESPOND </B><BR>Since fireworks display are seasonal in MN is there anything wrong with taking your children to them at 9:30pm in their pj's. How about running to the slide at a park one block from the house for a quick slide in your jammies before bed. Am I the worst parent in the world for this. WOC feels that the kids will think such an activity was crazy when they have children. It was a blast!!!<P>Reasonable or Way out there??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>STBX of WOC, <P>no there is nothing wrong with what you are proposing as long as there is no threat to the health of the children, and that they can get up and be going in the morning at the regular time or shortly after. For fireworks, that is fine, seasonal one time events can preempt regular bedtime. However, if the pj's wear out, you need to replace them, or provide your own pj's for them to use when they are at this activity.<P>I will support you on this one. However, if they are feetie jammies, then you have to return them clean.

Oh my God, I thought I was reading one of my old posts where my (now-ex)H got involved. Is this painful, or what?<P>I agree with <B>KalGirl</B>, this needs to be taken to a counselor, NOT HERE, and let me tell you why.<P>This place has become Marriage<B>Busters</B> to WOC's stbx, and that is TRULY what my ex called it. He is angry, he is hurt, and he is disguisted by the whole process. This is NOT a safe place for him. No, he *shouldn't* have been lurking (because it's dishonest unless he let's WOC know) but I can see where the spouse feels like their dirty laundry is out for all eyes to see. My ex felt EXACTLY the same way.<P>To WOC, this is her safe haven, and I know she loves and believes the concepts, and wants her marriage to heal. I was in her place two years ago.<P>I just know this, in my situation: My ex NEVER wants to hear the words MARRIAGE BUILDERS again. He hates this place for a million reasons. He did get some sympathy here, and could have used the concepts to win me back (at the time, of course) but instead chose to see this place as manipulative and "mine" only. When he left MB after only about 25 posts, he said it was because it was clearly "my W's place, not mine".<P>Okay, that said...<P>My opinion on the opinion-like stuff:<P>Have no problem with the jammies and root beer/fireworks, the furnishings should be split 50/50 with regard to not splitting up sets, etc. and not giving one the crap while the other gets the "good stuff," the gun issue is a biggie for me, and my ex had guns and bullets and I had a son who tried to kill himself, AND, my (then)H was not a cop... I hate that it has to be discussed at all. I don't know the rules for a loaded gun at home, etc. so I can't really commment on that aspect.<P><B>BOTTOM LINE</B><P>WOC and WOCSTBX,<P>Do you want to save your marriage?<P>Is there still hope here?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nyneve:<BR><B>I just know this, in my situation: My ex NEVER wants to hear the words MARRIAGE BUILDERS again. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My W has a weird thing about MB as well. Part of it is that she is very private and shy, and the counseling was very stressful for her, although she admits it was beneficial. When she sees me on the site she says it "sets her back"....which is curious....I guess she connects MB with me being unhappy, I don't know. I think it is also because she feels some "guilt" at being "a lousy wife" (her words), and that MB still being of interest to me means that there is an ongoing crisis. <P>I know it is not uncommon for people to lash out at counselors...I guess the anti-MB stuff is part and parcel of that in some cases. I guess it is akin to shooting the messenger. The openness and honesty of the MB process can be threatening and stressful, particularly to the comfortably withdrawn (like my W) or those with secret OPs. <P>

Question to STBEXWOC -- WOC started this thread with the concern that you wouldn't tell her where you were living, and where the children would be. You don't mention that issue. Is that resolved?<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited August 21, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mike C2:<BR><B>[QUOTE]Originally posted by STBXOFWOC:<BR>[b]The stipulations WOC layed down based on the Harley experience for me to make the marriage work are unacceptable, </B><P>Could you expand on this issue?<P>I think that it is sad when two people sort of wind up a marriage, divide things up, and part as friends. That shows that the love just died, was gone. When they are slinging arrows and fighting over the stuff instead of the issues, that pain maybe indicates there is something still there, some love, some feeling that there is a loss happening. Is it a crater or a foundation to build upon?<P>Usually Steve recommends that a couple has an open lifestyle (email, voicemail, etc) and report their whereabouts at all times in order to rebuild trust and avoid the temptation of renewed contact. Also there has to be a complete relation of the facts of the affair, (it is often worse to imagine than to know the facts) and sometimes a life change has to be made with a job or even moving your home. Was that the "stipulation" problem? <P>While there is this divorcing/divorced section here, I would hope that the two of you could use your presence on MB now to try anew to save your family, rather that fight over dressers and what have you. That is not what MB is about. <P>You know I've exchanged emails with WOC, and I know that there is a great deal of lovebusting going on in the communication between you, as a method of scoring points or whatever. I'll even say it is perhaps WOCs problem even more than yours. But, as we know, your column has transgressions as well.<P>Anyway, I'm sorry about the pain you both are going through, and I am sorry about the effect it is having on your family and your children. I'm not going to address all your questions about the material goods....I think you will look back on those spats and realize that they aren't worth it.<P>I'll say that my W would brain me if I took the kids to the park in their pajamas, but she is sort of a fashion nazi. But that is a POJA issue for married people. <I><B>What you both have to face is that you will not have the control or the role you enjoy now in your children's lives as divorced parents. That realization is what has made me go the extra mile in my marriage.</B></I> <P>And if you think it is bumpy now, wait a year until you both have significiant others involved in the parenting.<P>I hope the two of you back away from the current animosity, and avoid bludgeoning each other with accusations of mental instability and bad parenting....because the scars that causes on your children can not be healed. <P>STBXOFWOC -- you have to realize the incredible pain that is inflicted by infidelity on someone that considers themselves "mated", cut WOC some slack for her continuing anger, and review the "stipulations" that Dr. Harley designed to rebuild her trust. <P>WOC-- you have to realize that LBing and unmet ENs had a role in the affair igniting, and are having a role in the stalled healing. I know that you spent a lot of energy reaching out when the your H's lovebank was closed, but you need to recommit to Plan A if you want to have a happy ending here.<P>This thread makes me sad.<P>I hope you both will go sit by your sleeping children's beds tonite and find some love in your hearts to forgive and make a renewed effort. <p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited August 21, 2001).]

I think I am gonna throw up. This whole conversation between the two sounds so "divorce typical" it scares me. <BR>Fighting over who gets the dresser, who takes care of the kids, when someone leaves, when the kids got hurt in who's care...<BR>I hope BOTH of you can take a step back and realize you CHOOSE your paths. WOC H chose to have his A, he chose to lie. WOC chose to find help, to talk to others, and to not put up with it. Why do both of you feel you have to have upper hand on whose position should be validated or not?<BR>Both sides are valid. WOC's H, you chose to do what you did, and it affected your relationship greatly. Same goes for WOC. <P>All I can say is that for the year I have been here, I read WOC posts, and felt a great sadness for the relationship. I am sorry you both feel you must fight everything to the bone and not be agreeable on anything. You are both creating your own misery, and I would suggest a mediator.<BR>WOC H-i think you should leave whenever you want. Your W cannot keep you there, but if you have concern for your kids, then stay for a bit longer. It sounds like WOC priorities are the kids, where WOC's H agendas are proving he was justified in just about everything he did. And that he wants further justification on what we all feel he should do. Haven't you done enough? You are both grwon adults, it is funny how a divorce can resort your behaviors to childlike babble...none of this will matter in ten years..who took the sofa, who took the recliner...<BR>When my parents divorced, my mom and dad fought to the bone about who got what, split everything down the middle. <BR>WELL...<BR>two years ago, my mother's apartment caught on fire, and all those precious pieces of "things" she fought over burnt to the ground. <BR>Not a single piece salvagable.<BR>Fight over love, if only you both gave as much effort arguing over who should love and give more...the marriage would have been a textbook example of togetherness.<BR>Unfortunately, you are both shooting arrows without looking and throwing eachother in the middle of the crossfire, along with your children. Divorce is a scary thing for kids. I have been there, done that, and my life or my parents' lives have NEVER been the same! They chose to battle and fight-and if you could only see where they are now...<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike C2:<P>I hope you both will go sit by your sleeping children's beds tonite and find some love in your hearts to forgive and make a renewed effort. <P>[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Mike - That was so beautifully put. This is a source of strength and inner peace. I think that is what this couple needs also. Thanks for sharing

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike C2:<BR><B>[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mike C2:<BR>[QUOTE]Originally posted by STBXOFWOC:<BR>[b]The stipulations WOC layed down based on the Harley experience for me to make the marriage work are unacceptable, </B><P>Could you expand on this issue?<P>Usually Steve recommends that a couple has an open lifestyle (email, voicemail, etc) and report their whereabouts at all times in order to rebuild trust and avoid the temptation of renewed contact. Also there has to be a complete relation of the facts of the affair, (it is often worse to imagine than to know the facts) and sometimes a life change has to be made with a job or even moving your home. Was that the "stipulation" problem? <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is my first post here so please forgive me if I didn't do the quote feature the correct way. I have lurked on this MB site for several months and I did research alot of WOC's posts because she is one of the many people whom I have grown interested in and hoped to see a reconciliation for her and her H.<P>STBXWOC--Will you please answer the questions that MikeC2 has asked you about the stipulations and also whether you plan to let WOC know where you will be living?<P>I know neither of you but my heart goes out to WOC and you, it appears to me that she had a lot of love for you and as other have said earlier in this post, I see something left that you may have for her. I too get the feeling that it is not too late for the two of you.<P>Like I said, I've read many of WOC's posts and I think that she has done so much to try to save the marriage. <P>Have you done things to try to save your marriage? There were some posts around here some months back titled "have you earned the right to leave your marriage"? I am wondering if you think you have earned the right? I think you have earned the right only after you have exhausted all eforts in trying to save the marriage. Maybe you have tried but you never said it in your post.<P>I have read what WOC has had to say over the past several months, but I would like to hear more from you if you are willing to share your thoughts and feelings. It seems you also need support and WOC seems happy that you are posting, so how about indulging us all? <P>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dreams Shattered:<BR><B>STBXWOC--Will you please answer the questions that MikeC2 has asked you about the stipulations and also whether you plan to let WOC know where you will be living?</B><P>One of the frustrations of message board life is that it lacks the power of subpoena <P>WOC's H did a similar drive-by posting here some months back....I hope he does return...I know he leads a busy work life, maybe it is just the press of business right now. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited August 25, 2001).]