Looking for some comments on the note. I have my own comments, but I wanted a few others before I talk about it.<P>Synopsis of my story:<P>Married Jan 80 after high school.<BR>Two daughters 16 & 10.<BR>Wife had affair in Aug-Dec 98. She left (with only two suitcases) in Feb 99 out of state with om (wankboy).<BR>Has not been back since, I (not kids) saw her in Nov 99. She has not called or written since Feb this year.<P>My oldest turned 16 last Thursday. Here is a note she received along with some $$ and a card. She did call 3 times and left a message. We weren’t home.<P>Dear daughter,<BR>There has been so much time between us now - where do I or we start again?<BR>I have to honestly say that I don't feel like either you or your sister really care if I stay in touch or not. I call and talk to you most of all, and then I call for days & days and no one answers the phone. Suddenly I say to myself why bother, they don't really want to talk to you anyway. I'm the one who's at fault - I'm the one who left.<P>I went from my Parents rules to marriage at 18 - to always trying to please someone else. Always compromising, always letting everyone else have the choice. Pretending since the day you were born that I didn't smoke, and then always trying to get away by myself so I could smoke. Realizing that one day I would be very lonely sitting watching T.V., while you and your sister would be gone - to college - marriage - who knows, but in the end, I'd be lonely - wanting to do things I never had, to enjoy the company of the one you love. Giving in and going out to dinner instead of kicking up heels on a country & western dance floor.<P>I'm not there for you now, and wheather it matters to you or your sister, I don't know. I do know that when your on the phone you are polite, and loving to me. I won't do things right by you or your sister ever - and all you can both do is either let me into what little time I can share with you over the phone or not. If I had a pager & you could page me - would that make a difference? Would you ever page me?<P>I will call on your day tomorrow. hopefully not to ruin it, but I would like to say hello, to both you and your sister.<BR>Love Mom<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Chris:<P>She's feeling sorry for herself. Crying in her Pepsi, I guess.<P>The only other thing I noticed is the "what little time...". That, coupled with the references to smoking, might lead me to think she has cancer.<P>Do your kids return her calls? Do you have caller id so that you know that she has called?

I’m Pepsi, she’s Coke! <P>We do have caller ID and the kids know when she calls. They listen to her messages. I make sure they know she has called & let them hear the messages. They NEVER have returned a call. She sent them her phone # a zillion times, a phone card, her address. They know how to get a hold of her. I ask them on occasion if they want to call or write but they aren’t interested (or show no interest.)<P>Cancer, huh? Never thought of that. She’s 40, was on the pill for a long time (probably again now) and has smoked since she was 15 or so. Put them all together & those are prime cancer causes.<BR>I got the chop back in ’95 so she could go off the pill.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

The other thing I found funny was her sideways comment about you forcing her out to dinner, when she wanted to go dancing.<P>I thought <B>you</B> were the dancer... in fact, I remember giving you a little piece of hell a while back about that. <P>I guess a concern that I would have is that the kids aren't contacting her out of a loyalty issue to you. But she abandoned them, as well. You talk with your girls about this, right? It's got to be tough for them to deal with this, especially your oldest.<P>So, I'll wait patiently for your comments. And sit and drink my Pepsi...

She only brought up the country dancing <B>one time</B>, about 7 years ago. A friend at my work started going. She said, “that sounds fun.” She never said, “let’s go” or looked into it or asked where it was. Guess I should have “read the signs” eh?<P><B>I guess a concern that I would have is that the kids aren't contacting her out of a loyalty issue to you. But she abandoned them, as well.</B><BR>It’s probably both as you suggest. I don’t purposely try to get them to “choose sides.” I do carefully watch what/how I say things to them but I don’t try to butter it up when mom doesn’t call or says, “I’ll call tomorrow” and doesn’t. I just state the facts.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A><p>[This message has been edited by Chris (CA123) (edited September 04, 2001).]

Chris:<P>Between<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...brought up the country dancing one time, about 7 years ago.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>and all the damn Pepsi cans, I probably would have dumped you too!!! <P>The cancer has probably spread to her brain...

Well, I do agree with K that she is feeling sorry for herself. However, I don't think she has cancer. I think the "fog" is lifting - life with Wankboy may NOT be worth what it cost her - the joy and priviledge of raising her daughters!<P>I also wonder if that reference to what little time she has could mean that she has limited telephone time due to pressure from Wankboy to limit it. He may have made her feel as if she had to "choose" - him or them. If so, poor choice on her part!<P>In the long run it comes down to this - you gotta pay if you're going to play. Donna is finally feeling the true consequence of her actions, and it doesn't feel so hot!<P>Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Roll Me Away:<BR>Well, I do agree with K that she is feeling sorry for herself. However, I don't think she has cancer. I think the "fog" is lifting - life with Wankboy may NOT be worth what it cost her - the joy and priviledge of raising her daughters!<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I concur; the letter drips with self-pity and rationalization - "I'll call you, I hope it doesn't ruin your day?" "...always trying to please someone else, always compromising?" That sounds like someone doing battle with herself, feeling guilty and miserable, but still trying to justify her actions. It will be interesting for you to see what develops next.<P>I also think "Wankboy" is undoubtedly the best nickname for an OM I've ever heard. <P>

Hey Chris!<P>It does seem like Donna is feeling sorry for herself...but at the same time, still trying to justify her actions. She's choosing to do this. As long as she continues to live this way, she'll just have to suffer the consequences and live with it.<P>I hope that she realizes that the price that she is paying is costing her dearly and isn't worth it!<P>By the way, I haven't been following this forum regularly, so I haven't kept up with everyone here. Is your divorce already finalized?<p>[This message has been edited by Survivor [aka_NoTrust] (edited September 04, 2001).]

Awaiting a hearing to publish in the paper instead of service. 30 days in paper & 90 days after that it’s final. Should be shortly after the new year.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Dear daughter,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I do hope you've changed the name to protect the innocent. Surely your W didn't avoid calling your daughter by name?!?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I have to honestly say that I don't feel like either you or your sister really care if I stay in touch or not. I call and talk to you most of all, and then I call for days & days and no one answers the phone. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Oh, good, place some guilt on the daughters.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Suddenly I say to myself why bother, they don't really want to talk to you anyway. I'm the one who's at fault - I'm the one who left.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>hmmm.. on the face of it, she's taking responsibility for her own actions. Based on the next paragraph, it looks more like an invitation to a pity party.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I went from my Parents rules to marriage at 18 - to always trying to please someone else. Always compromising, always letting everyone else have the choice. Pretending since the day you were born that I didn't smoke, and then always trying to get away by myself so I could smoke. Realizing that one day I would be very lonely sitting watching T.V., while you and your sister would be gone - to college - marriage - who knows, but in the end, I'd be lonely - wanting to do things I never had, to enjoy the company of the one you love. Giving in and going out to dinner instead of kicking up heels on a country & western dance floor.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Is that a violin playing "smoke gets in your eyes?"<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'm not there for you now, and wheather it matters to you or your sister, I don't know. I do know that when your on the phone you are polite, and loving to me. I won't do things right by you or your sister ever - and all you can both do is either let me into what little time I can share with you over the phone or not. If I had a pager & you could page me - would that make a difference? Would you ever page me?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>K was probably being cynical as I am in my responses. I don't see the words "what little time" being a reference to W's time left on earth. Taking my tongue out of my cheek now, what I see W saying is "little time" is <B>all</B> the daughters will ever get. Your W committed a selfish act by leaving. She probably feels guilty, as she should, but is perhaps trying to deflect that guilt with rationalizations, which look more like self-pity to me. Perhaps she's entertaining the notion that she can fulfill her motherhood duties by talking to daughters on the phone. Oh, and daughters, could you make that motherhood duty just a tad bit easier by calling me, instead of making me suffer through a tape recording each time you're not home? Oops, there goes my tongue into my cheek again. <P>Chris, I haven't followed all your posts (I do remember the grocery list story though and loved it). I guess what compelled me to answer this post is sincere sympathy for you and your daughters, especially your daughters. I am so grateful for my mom, who is always there for me, and nicer to me than I deserve. My dad died when I was barely three. I had no memories of him. Abandonment by death is bad enough. I can't imagine what abandonment in life must feel like for a kid. You have my heartfelt condolences.

Why does she even bother? At this point, there is no going back--obviously. It would almost be better for her if she was dying of cancer, not that she should expect any sympathy from Chris or her daughters. <P>From what I can tell, her only hope is to find a way to eek out whatever paltry existence she can out of whatever is left of her miserable life. Not that she deserves any pity. She brought this on herself and now she should just suffer, or at least, gather up whatever remaining self-respect she has left and let her daughters go. The best thing she can do is not pollute her daughters any more than she already has.

Maybe she needs to eat a Bran Muffin...Chris do you still have the recipe? <P>Seriously, it doesn't sound like her new life is turning out to be a bed of roses, but she knows she can't go back either.<P>But darn it, you gotta do what you have to do...no matter who it hurts. Right? <P>She seems in a layer between the fog and reality. On one hand it seems like she recognizes the consequences of her horrible behavior (that is an understatement), but on the other hand it is still all about her.<P>Maybe she is asking your girls permission to let her go?

Chris,<P>Sorry to hear you are going through this. After reading the letter your wife wrote, well, frankly, it is people like that who give selfishness, self pity and self centeredness a bad name. It is very difficult to immagine how she or any parent could write a letter like that to a child. No wonder the kids aren't straining at the leash for a chance to talk to her. She is trying to manipulate the kids into telling her that what she is doing is OK, that they will love her no matter what she does.<P>She doesn't leave you with a whole lot of choices. You have to start looking at ways to protect yourself and your children, legally and professionally.<P>Spouses have a tendence to come and go, but the kids are forever.<P>Prayers and stuff,<P>Bumper<P>

Chris,<P>My daughters are 10, 8 and 3 and the two oldest never call their dad. I even try to remind them or guide them, but they have no desire. He used to take them regularly, once every two weeks anyhow, and now he hasn't seen them since Father's Day.<P>I think that having daughters of my own, I feel more sensitive to this letter, but all I can think of is what amount of burden that letter puts on the kids.<P>She is acting selfish and whether she is out of the fog, or feeling pitiful or what, I really think it's unfair of her to send that letter. I feel sorry for the kids that have to deal with this kind of stuff.<P>Dana<P><BR>

My youngest didn't see the card.<BR>Whenever I try to discuss ANYTHING about mom with her, she just shrugs her shoulders and changes the subject.<P>Lonesome, my wife did write their names.<P>From the letter I got;<BR>She is not planning to see the kids anytime soon (like never?).<BR>She still does not think she did ANYTHING wrong in the marriage including her affairs except for leaving and that was only wrong because she left the kids.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Chris,<P>I think that is good that the youngest didn't see the card. I sometimes wonder if I, as the primary caretaker should "lose" that card at times. It's just that living with the kids, I see what they are going thru. WS does not. My middle daughter does the same as yours, shrugs and changes subject, if she is really upset, she'll say "I don't want to talk about daddy it makes me sad".<P>The counselor told me to teach them now to communicate and not let them shrug that off too often. It will bring the kids closer to us, the primary and only parent ,rather than let them learn to avoid issues which can come out in relationship problems of our children when they get married. <P>My kids have been in counseling since the day x left on xmas, I wonder have your girls had any? I can't afford it for myself so I send them first and foremost, but I do see a slight change in them. They are angry, yet they accept and understand things. I would also imagine you having teen age girls they are even more positive about their feelings on this at times.<P>Take care of yourself and your girls (I am not looking forward to that teen stage) Dana<BR>

Chris!!!!! Nice to see you're doing well. I'm glad you are moving forward with the divorce. You are doing the right thing! <P>I'm sooooo much happier now, and you will be too. You will be setting a good example for your girls by caring enough about yourself to move on with your life. <P>Donna is the most selfish person! I was going to say "selfish mother" but I hesitate to use the word "mother" to describe her. How dare she put such a load of self-serving guilt crap on her daughters! I think you should take the card and put it somewhere for about 10-20 years. Someday when they are adults, your daughters will need to re-hash some of this stuff, and it will help to have things like this around for them. But they don't need the constant reminder right now. <P>Hang in there!<BR>-Annie

<BR>"Dear daughter,<BR>There has been so much time between us now - where do I or we start again?<BR>I have to honestly say that I don't feel like either you or your sister really care if I stay in touch or not. I call and talk to you most of all, and then I call for days & days and no one answers the phone. Suddenly I say to myself why bother, they don't really want to talk to you anyway. I'm the one who's at fault - I'm the one who left."<P>Your STBX starts out by placing the burden for solution to the distance on the child. It's not your D's responsibility to keep the relationship going.<P>STBX left of her own free will. She's not being held for ransom in a foreign jail, or even in jail here in the US. You and the kids didn't move away from her. She chose Wankboy (love that handle!) over her kids and husband. The overtly taking of responsibility ("I'm the one who left") is really a twisted cry of self-pity. Feel sorry for me, look how I hurt.<P>Here's a thought: When we first start dating, are in the stage of infatuation or even newly in love, and the very sight of the beloved makes our pulses race, the little witticisms they crack come back again and again to make us chuckle, the touch of their hand on ours makes us feel "all's right with the world" - the little exchanges at the end of the day over dinner, the relaxing time on weekend. All the things that feed into our love - what if they suddenly stopped? We know that instead of the beloved listening to our ideas, "I love you's" and laughing at the same jokes, they are miles away, sharing their lives with someone else. Months go by, we get a phone call or two, we supply our phone number and pager number, and the beloved says she is hurt because the warmth and closeness is gone. Gee, how did THAT happen? You couldn't sustain a romance like that; how can you nurture a parent-child love on so little attention and presence?<P>Between the lines, and not buried very deeply, are Self pity, immaturity, lack of empathy. Your girls are bearing up under the pain of their mother's abandonment with remarkable grace and dignity. <P>"I went from my Parents rules to marriage at 18 - to always trying to please someone else. Always compromising, always letting everyone else have the choice. Pretending since the day you were born that I didn't smoke, and then always trying to get away by myself so I could smoke. Realizing that one day I would be very lonely sitting watching T.V., while you and your sister would be gone - to college - marriage - who knows, but in the end, I'd be lonely - wanting to do things I never had, to enjoy the company of the one you love. Giving in and going out to dinner instead of kicking up heels on a country & western dance floor."<P>This sounds like drivel from a self-help feel-good book. It's not the kind of thing you send to your children. THe sickening this is "to enjoy the company of the one you love." Who is - Wankboy! NOT her daughters. Yuck. She left to be with the one she loves, and to dance in a bar because she wasn't having enough fun around the family. Thbbt. Did she ever try to get you and the kids to a country western dance? Once? Did she find a class that the family could take together? <P>"I'm not there for you now, and wheather it matters to you or your sister, I don't know. I do know that when your on the phone you are polite, and loving to me. I won't do things right by you or your sister ever - and all you can both do is either let me into what little time I can share with you over the phone or not. If I had a pager & you could page me - would that make a difference? Would you ever page me?"<P>Poor little me.<P>"I will call on your day tomorrow. hopefully not to ruin it, but I would like to say hello, to both you and your sister."<P>Be careful how you treat me. I've already beaten up on myself, and I'm not coming home, I'm not going to try to put our family back together, I'm asking for a crumb. Since I've beaten up on myself, you must make me feel better.<P>"Love Mom"<P>What? a Mom would BE there.<BR>*********<BR>I will now withdraw my fangs. <P>Chris, you are very brave to keep going and keep the girls' lives as normal as possible. <P><P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

Chris,<P>Very interesting letter. I pretty much agree with everyone else. However, I sense that the 16th B-day is the real trigger. I don't know if you and Donna were dating then, but I will bet that your D turning 16 is triggering memories of a life squandered. Make no mistake about it, Donna has squandered her life, and she knows it.<P>Even if WankBoy is the best thing since sliced bread, her life is now nomadic, she has now roots, no children, and no future except him. My bet that is not really enough. She is seeing that at this time in your D's life she should be an influence and she is not. It won't be long before D is off to college, or work or whatever, and it will be too late to have been a Mother to her.<P>My take on this is that her life is not as it should have been, and your D turning 16 is reminding her of it. If she has any brains she also remembers that teenagers are active, busy, and somewhat self absorbed. They only notice those around them, that would be you Chris, not Donna.<P>I do hope you are doing well, and that the divorce is proceeding as you planned it. I think you will be very relieved when this is all over, and so will the girls.<P>It is so tough to grow up, and to have to do so without a mother is especially hard for girls.<P>You have done well Chris.<P>God Bless,<P>JL