Kevin,<P>I'm where your wife was 3 years ago. I desparately need to know what is going on with my now ex. I held out hope that after the divorce, he'd be lonely, realize what he lost in moving out of the home where he had a devoted, albeit busy, wife and 4 kids. although i know now that i could have been more attentive and given him more attention, those areas are minor, easy to fix problems. but he just up and announced he wanted out last summer and divorced me one month after baby #4 came along. he didn't actually start dating until one month after the divorce (although many will say i've been fooled) i've never had evidence to the contrary. i've read enough on here and elsewhere to see that he is in a midlife crisis at 37 years old. I haven't reached the point that CJ and your wife is at, ready to chuck the whole thing but I identify with their pain and fears. especially CJ's husband telling her all that he found wrong with her, never loved her, and now acting like if there is even a glimmer of hope for reconciliation i've gotta figure out what went wrong and he's not going to tell me what it is, i have to figure it out for myself. how cruel can a person be. marriage, like any other human relationship requires communication. you can't read the mind of your boss, parents, children, friends or relatives and the same goes for a spouse. i feel like i'm the one on probation and if i don't figure out what i did or didn't do that drove him away then it's my loss. he seems to be really enjoying his freedom and not having to be accountable to me. he's stood the kids up twice this week when he told them he was coming to get them and take them home with him. he loves them i know but he is really getting into his freedom at the sacrifice of his kids and the tremendous pain he's causing me.<P>so kevin, tell me please did you say to her you'd been unhappy the whole marriage, you never loved her, you felt trapped all these years and you finally couldn't live the lie any longer, etc? did you mean it at the time or did you think you meant it and found out later you were just having a midlife crisis. did the other woman have characteristics physical and/or mental that you found superior to your wife? i know my spouse is dating and i want to find out how i compare and its my hope that she'll be ugly or at least very average such that i can't feel worse about my own traits. were you feeling neglected because your wife didn't have time to make a fuss over you like she did in the pre-children years and this new woman put you in the center of her universe? what did she give you that your wife wasn't? Now, what made you wake up to your foolishness? was it something your wife did while trying to win you back that touched you? was it that other men were dating her and you realized she might actually replace you? or did the new woman's appeal fad and you found out that the grass on the other side had a lot of manure with it? or does something click that you discover you are having a midlife crisis and and you look back at what you had and what you did to your family and have great regret? you see, i've got to find out what my husband's problem is. i know i can't fix something i didn't break but i'm looking for hope for a reconciliation. if its just a matter of it being like the flu...just needs to run its course then i will have something to hold onto to get me through the months or even years it takes for him to wake up. do you think if your wife had not tried so hard to get you back that you might have come home earlier because it was your pride keeping you from coming back. was it a matter of it having to be your decision? Did you faith have anything to do with it? i'm having many friends pray that God gets a hold on him and brings him back to his senses.<P>i know it's a lot of questions but i'm broken and defeated in spirit. i start to cry every time i tell my story. i am rejected after 9 years of marriage and don't see how my life is supposed to go on without him being my spouse. i don't want another man, and don't want people to tell me i should trust God will bring a better man into my life and love me inspite of being divorced with 4 kids and that he will find me attractive and love me till the end. i want my husband only to do those things for me. i feels worse than a death because there is no closure with a divorce. the person still exists but they choose to reject you and be with another and i'll have to one day face his girlfriends or new wife when we have visitation with the kids. the rejection is awful. i've tried so hard to do things that are so good to him including doing more in bed to make him have second thoughts about leaving a generous loving wife but to no avail. <P>I know i've asked a lot of questions but i'm just bewildered that his freedom is so precious that it is worth living on only 30% of his salary, living in a dumpy apartment, seeing his kids only on weekends and a few hours at night a couple of nights a week, giving up a wife who never denied him sex for divorcees with their own children and their own problems, risk of contracting a STD, his family is broken, he has crushed me, the kids are missing daddy, and some people at work think he's a dog and all because he thinks he was never in love when he married me. if your pain isn't too deep to give me some answers, i'd really, truly appreciate it.<P>thanks, karen

well I am not kevin, but I am a ws, and the demographics fit. We married at about the same ages you did, and had 4 kids in the same time frame, and at 10 year mark (37 years old, we were having serious marital disharmony). I am 51 now though, and kids are 15-22. I never looked at ow back then cause I was focused on my kids needs, and if my wife didn't love or appreciate me, it was just my tough luck. that worked for 13 more years, until I fell in love with ow. However, I am still at home (for various reasons), we are trying to reconcille, and so forth. What I am going to try and do is roll back my life for 13 years, and put myself in your H shoes.<P>Had I left my wife back then (and I did fantasize about my "freedom") it would have been because I believed I was just a paycheck, just a warm body filling the H slot in her life. She never tired of telling me my faults, and what I needed to do to be a "good" husband. She wasn't a bad peron, a devoted mother, excellent housewife, and attractive enough, took care of herself, caring to everyone, friends, relatives, neighbors, pets....everyone but me, I was the "enemy". I never really understood why, I wasn't mean to her, stayed home, didn't drink, no drugs, didn't even watchTV sports....my crime? I just didn't do what she wanted, I was sloppy,a bit scatterbrained...and I wanted her to admire me, I wanted her to tell me she loved me (meaning I wanted emotional stuff)...but she was unwilling to get to close, so she kept me at arms length....and when she was particularly angry might say maybe she should take the kids and divorce me, a thought I couldn't bear. So I said little, just worked and paid the bills, and tried to pretend I had a happy family, but kept to myself alot. I say all this just in case any of it applies. My wife of course remembers this time a bit differently, but acknowledges she was critical much of the time, and did keep me at a distance.<P>Had I left, it would have been because I didn't see any future (as in growing old together), and figured as well if I am going to be alone in my marriage, might as well really be alone (less painful)...and maybe find someone who would love me. I also came to feel I really never loved her, just wanted to fix her, make her be more loving, rescue her from an unhappy FOO childhood etc, and it was a tragic mistake we married.<P>I can't really say if I had left, what would have led to reconcilliation, are too many variables, so will just offer some thoughts. <P>One is the kids are a huge draw. If your H truly loves em, and wants to be a factor in their lives, the reality this will never really be if he stays divorced from you, should set in pretty quick. Take every chance you can to keep him interracting so he will realize what he is missing. Talk to him about what is happening in their everyday lives, try to get him to any functions (school, sports, whatever)...and DO NOT guilt him, just be upbeat and positive about the kids, and how much you appreciate whatever it is when he does stuff with them.<P>Use these times to also plan a him as hard as possible, plus any and every other opportunity you can. DO NOT LB, do not be needy and clingy, be strong and capable, but still vulnerable in that special way a wife is to a H, but be discreet, let him do stuff for you on his own (like fix a leaky faucet), but try to get him to do it..ya know? And when he does compliment him. Be frugal with money, and express concern for his well-being..Also take any opportunity to make it clear you admire him, maybe make dinner for him when opportunity presents etc. Be sure to work on yourself, I know it is tough with little feedback, but not impossible. This isn't rocket science, probably was a combination of neglect, criticisms, Love busting stuff, and not meeting his needs...try to correct those things and show him. Understand you cannot "make" him come back, or guilt him back, and trying to do so is very dangerous. Make it clear you are willing to change, but be firm and cheerful and take care of yourself too, don't present the image of one sitting by the phone waiting for his call. Instead make it clear you are getting on with your life, with or without him.....is a hard road to travel, but it does seem to work. If the spark ignites, do not get eager, take your time and nurture the flame. The goal is to make yourself an attractive marital choice. And being as how you have kids, a history, and you know him, you have the best shot as a suitor, think like a suitor, pursue him the same way you would as a single, do not pursue him as a betrayed spouse.<P>and Karen, it is very important to appear strong and competent, even when you want to die.... cruel as it may be, weakness drives spouses away, would you want a weak spouse? If he comes back, if he reconcilles, there will be time enuf then to cry for each other, now you have to be strong, and whether he returns or not, you will be better for it, and for your kids. All is not lost, people do remarry, but if you don't, you can derive self-esteem from knowing you tried your best in the most effective way possible. Good luck.<p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited September 09, 2001).]

thank you for responding. i didn't read your post until i've already done a needy thing. my kids told me about the woman he is dating and how they go to the bedroom and lock the door and she thinks they like each other and are kissing. she's only 7. so she doesn't understand the dynamics of daddy should only do this with mommy. i called and asked him if he was sleeping with her. he said no but i think he is lying. i got him to agree to keep the kids out of his dating life. i've been entertaining thoughts of going to her work place and showing up with all 4 children and confronting her and telling her that God and I are on a mission to bring daddy home to his family and that if she doesn't want to feel the side affects of God's chastising him then she better stay away.<P>am i crazy? is this a bad idea? it sure would make me feel better. but would it cause damage that couldn't be undone?<P>would it help if i got someone to pretend to be interested in me so he thinks other men find me attractive and that maybe he should take another look at what he tossed away?

lafrance, no showing up is probably not a good idea, nor is jealousy, these are coercive techniques, and if they got him back is a weak foundation and probably would fail in long run. Sometimes a huge confrontation has a positive outcome, but not usually, if you do such a thing, think long and hard beforehand and get feedback here. This stuff has been figured out pretty good. Read all the MB stuff, post on GQ2 board for help with plan a, people have had success even after divorce. You must consider yourself a suitor, and pursue him that way. Suitors don't use confrontation or coercion they just present themselves as desireable, and capable marriage material. Good luck, but work on yourself too, he may never come back, but you have to raise those kids, and live the rest of your life too. It will work out, I really think this kind of thing is more about attitude than anything else. Think of this as a begining and not the end of your life.

lafrance,<P>I'm just skimming through your post (at work). Your situation sounds similar. I know it's not what you want to hear now, but I've got to do some work first before I post a reply. <P>I'll be back in a few hours with a reply.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lafrance:<BR><B>so kevin, tell me please did you say to her you'd been unhappy the whole marriage, you never loved her, you felt trapped all these years and you finally couldn't live the lie any longer, etc? did you mean it at the time or did you think you meant it and found out later you were just having a midlife crisis. did the other woman have characteristics physical and/or mental that you found superior to your wife? i know my spouse is dating and i want to find out how i compare and its my hope that she'll be ugly or at least very average such that i can't feel worse about my own traits. were you feeling neglected because your wife didn't have time to make a fuss over you like she did in the pre-children years and this new woman put you in the center of her universe? what did she give you that your wife wasn't? Now, what made you wake up to your foolishness? was it something your wife did while trying to win you back that touched you? was it that other men were dating her and you realized she might actually replace you? or did the new woman's appeal fad and you found out that the grass on the other side had a lot of manure with it? or does something click that you discover you are having a midlife crisis and and you look back at what you had and what you did to your family and have great regret? you see, i've got to find out what my husband's problem is. i know i can't fix something i didn't break but i'm looking for hope for a reconciliation. if its just a matter of it being like the flu...just needs to run its course then i will have something to hold onto to get me through the months or even years it takes for him to wake up. do you think if your wife had not tried so hard to get you back that you might have come home earlier because it was your pride keeping you from coming back. was it a matter of it having to be your decision? Did you faith have anything to do with it? i'm having many friends pray that God gets a hold on him and brings him back to his senses.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I said all of the things you asked, all of them during the affair because I thought I believed that my marriage was miserable. It wasn't; it was an awful, hurtful way to tell her I wasn't having my emotional needs met. I think having kids changed the way we interacted; it didn't help that we never went out without the kids, just us alone together. That would have been fun, and I probably wouldn't have made the mistakes I made. <P>The other woman was physically and mentally different from my wife. I wouldn't be concerned about how you compare to the other woman; during my affair, my wife in my eyes was no less beautiful than she's ever been. The OW was meeting my emotional needs. I worsened it by being selfish, saying ugly things to my wife and living in a fog, making myself believe that I was happy with what I was doing but tearing myself to pieces inside because of what I was doing to my family. I didn't want to leave my family. <P>The OW gave me what I thought was freedom, she put me in the center of her universe, but it wasn't anything I couldn't find at home. <P>My wife tried hard to get me to see what I was doing, even gave me a copy of "Surviving An Affair" to read (and my affair was by the book). The whole year I was away she fought to get me back into her life, and the kids' (I had moved out of state to be with the OW). I finally came back, had a relapse, but in the couple of months after that I slowly awakened to the fact that everything I needed and wanted could be found within my marriage. And the fact that I'd put my kids through enough. My littlest barely knows me because I chose to screw up everyone's life by being selfish. But marriage doesn't just happen; it takes an effort every day, not an effort like pulling weeds but like making a great dinner. And for me it meant getting off the couch, biting my tongue, making an effort and making changes in my life.<P>I have a lot of regret and still feel a lot of pain about what I did. It's been three years since this started and I cry every day about what I've done to my wife, my kids. We all owe our kids more than what they've gotten. My wife gave me all of the data on divorce, how it affects the kids, how second marriages have a higher chance of failure than first marriages. She knows all of that, yet she's decided that's what she wants. I don't want a divorce, and I don't think our kids deserve one. I still believe the problems in our marriage, while very critical now, are solveable. <P>I didn't start thinking about God until a few months ago; my mother-in-law started talking and things developed from there. Until then, I hadn't been to church since I was a kid. But it calms me down. <P>I read sad_n_lonely's posts and agree. Don't do anything to put yourself in a position of weakness. And another piece of advice: Don't do anything in bed (or wherever you choose to do it) that you would'nt be comfortable doing. You'll only make yourself unhappy and uncomfortable later.<P>I wouldn't confront the other woman, either. It could be interpreted as a desperate act, and it could get someone fired from their job. <P>Unfortunately, you can't persuade him to come back; show him that you're strong and capable. And show him what he's missing: his kids, his beautiful wife, a loving home. <P>If I've left anything out or you have any more questions, post them. Hopefully we'll all learn from each other and put our lives and marriage back together. <P>Kevin.