<BR>I'm thinking of issuing an ultimatium. A few of you may remember my story. (Steph, Bruce) <BR>What I want to say is that I find life with my H to be joyless to unbearable. Sometime in my head I hear myself saying. I JUST DON'T WANT TO BE MARRIED TO HIM ANYMORE. <BR>I am feeling good about myself pretty much now, am very active and have my depression under control. My relationship with my husband is hardley ever argumentative anymore. But there is almost NOTHING to it. He still seems happpy with it and does not want to work on it. <BR>We took a trip awhile back, so I took one of the Harley books. My husband was upset. He said it insulted him..... we've been thru the counsleing. I still thinks he needs an antianxiety drug. <BR>I just want to say get happy, get your head on straight or were getting a divorce.

GBM,<P>I'd suggest that you start counseling here with Steve Harley. Invite your husband along, but regardless of his answer, you should go. Steve may be able to give you some insight into techniques to use to make this marriage a better place for you.<P>If you choose to do this on your own, I'd stage your "plan". First, have a very pointed discussion with your husband; lay out what you need from him, and set concrete, achievable, verifiable goals. If he can't stick with it, you would probably need to separate from him. If that doesn't have the desired effect, then divorce would probably follow.<P>The key is for your husband to get excited about doing this as well. When one spouse thinks the marriage is crappy and the other thinks it's great, motivation can be hard to find. Steve will be able to help you with that.

Thanks K,<BR>I wote down the "plan" and will investigate the counseling option with Steve. But something that scared me is that with a counselor we set goals before and he wasn't able to meet them. He always had feeble excuses (usually that he never had time to work on the relaionship)<BR>Thanks for your advice. Oddly, I feel better knowing that even if it does come down to divorce that i wil l go about it with a plan.... organized and rational , not just all emotional and erratic.

I believe there is no such thing as an organized, rational divorce. I've seen enough of them to make me want to throw up, and every one of them was emotional and erratic. But hey, if it's all your husband's fault, if he is the one who is needs to do all the work, if he needs to "get happy, get your head on straight or we're getting a divorce", then you might be doing him a big favor.

nonplused: You probably don't know enough of GBM's story to have come in with that sharp stick...<P>GBM, my assessment of where you are in the marriage is that you're close to being "gone" (withdrawal). It seems like the last round of counseling did some good in terms of elimination of lovebusters. Now it seems that your next issue would be that of meeting each other's emotional needs. That's why I suggest that you switch counselors and start to work with Steve.<P>Having a spouse "not involved" as much in the counseling process is tough. My wife and I have been doing work with Steve for the last couple months; but I've had to postpone every appointment we've had because she's been late with her "homework". What does this do??? It just delays the process. But at least we're doing it (and our lives can get crazy, so there are legit excuses). But going through this process is helping the two of us focus on each other.<P>And I do believe that should you eventually end in divorce, that going this route will allow you to have explored "every avenue" for your marriage, and given yourself every chance to be successful. And it will allow you to "heal" from the trauma of a divorce more quickly then if you hadn't. But I also think that if you start working with Steve, your marriage will be successful, and you'll be very glad that you gave the effort.

Hey nonplused, thanks for the new perspective, but K was right, you really to know the history here. I just didn't want to bore you all with it. But to let you know, I have been the one doing all the work for over 5 years. I am close to an ultimatium because when I do all the work HE assumes that all is well and doesnn't need to do anything. So I either DON"T work on it and it's hell or I work on it and he assumes that because I'm acting happy that I must be happy with the way things are (far from that tho). He doesn't want a counsellor, he doesn't want to spend any time working on the rlationship. <BR>Thanks K for your input, YOU should be a counsellor yourself!

My apologies for any offense. I don't understand the story, that's true.<P>I had hoped to illustrate my opinion (apparently unsuccessfully), which is that ultimatums are inappropriate under almost any circumstances. If you have two equal adults in a relationship of any kind, be it business, friendship, love, whatever, then I don't believe one of those partners has the right to issue "ultimatums" to the other. I know it's hard work to be busy trying to improve a relationship when it seems one sided. But a person's personal development is really their own responsibility, and no one can force someone to do things another way than their own. He/she may not be making the changes you want him/her to change or even thinking about the things you want him/her to think about. Maybe they never will. Then you have to decide whether or not on the balance you want to stay. If you leave, it should be because you didn't want to be with your spouse the way they are, not because they "refused to change".<P>I believe we can only really change ourselves. I believe that if you have a relationship between two people that are both consciously working on self improvement, great things can happen. But I also believe that as soon as one person takes it upon themselves to "change" another person, serious problems are bound to appear. The act of changing another person (if we could assume it were possible) is entirely selfish any way. We do not try to change others for their benefit, we try to change them to make them more pleasing to ourselves (i.e. for our own benefit).<P>I wandered a good way off the subject here. Obviously most of this isn't applicable to this particular situation, it's more of a general ramble.<P>Anyway, to clearly answer the original question, I don't think ultimatums are fair.<BR>

noonplused,<P>I completely agree with you on ultimatums: they're typically unfair and usually counterproductive in any relationship.<P>Now, you've hit an interesting subject with the "I can only change myself" area. I would agree that change MUST start with yourself, but that you can change the world with the appropriate attitudes (look at Martin Luther King, for example). In a marriage, you can effect change in your spouse as well---but you can't demand it. You must lead by example, and those changes must start with you.<P>And there's inheriently nothing wrong with wanting "change" from your spouse. It is "selfish" in that it's about YOUR needs, but that's OK...as long as there's a healthy balance between the "giving" and "taking" in the relationship. <P>Looking back on your original post, I had no idea that your meaning was "ultimatums are bad...". If you had said that, I'd have agreed. I think that in GBM's case she's getting close to having "giver's snapback", and that her husband has been pretty clueless to how this is affecting her. I think her best bet is to get into an effective counseling program, and see if the changes that she desires takes place. If they don't, an appropriate wake-up call to her husband would be a separation---this way he'd see exactly what he's missing by not having her take care of his needs. You'd hope that adults wouldn't need to resort to this level to solve communication and relationship problems, but sometimes that's what it takes.

\<P><p>[This message has been edited by HollyAnn (edited July 08, 1999).]

\<p>[This message has been edited by HollyAnn (edited July 08, 1999).]

Hollyann.......<P><BR> I so disagree with your one post that you stated if you loved each other once you can do it again. Not true for everyone sorry. Some people destroy that trust where the love does not come back. That is the case with me. I do know if I did not have my kids I would have been gone at least a year ago. I have tryed to find those feelings back but hes not for me not anymore. One person said it great on this post that sometimes there is just no beginning to go back to. It seems so strange reading all these people think its so easy for people to get that in love feeling back. Well my spouse does nothing I mean nothing to try and win me back. I make the plans always have . If they are plans for us or with the kids. He contridicts things he tells me which to me is controlling. He does not like things I enjoy although he won't admit that. I can tell by the looks I receive. Its not fun living like that and I know there are some people out there that live the same way. Life is not fair I know it has not been fair to me. But I am still here and still breathing. And in time I know what will probably become of my marriage. I got a call yesterday for an interview for another part time job I applied for. He was here when I got the call to set it up. I got off the phone and you know what he said? He said you have a interview? I said yes thats it nothing else. No I hope you get the job or thats great. What a damn slap in the face that was to me. That was as cold and as heartless he could be. And I know the reason is he will have to be with the kids alone a few more nights if I get that job. My goodness I will not be here to do everything. What a damn slap. Now maybe you can see better where I am coming from. Good luck all that want your dreams to come true. Mine I want to someday. :-(.

Wonder,<P>This (I believe) is my first post to you. I think that you should immediately seek medical help for depression. It's pretty clear that you have a significant case of clinical depression going on.<P>As to your situation, you haven't yet been successful. And you look at it as hopeless. But I'd encourage you to look at your situation again after you start treatment. I'd encourage you to get some good marriage counseling, perhaps here with Steve Harley. I know that your husband will probably refuse an invitation (don't demand), but you should go anyway. <P>You could change your situation for the better, if you wanted to. You just need to find the tools and skills, and start to use them. <P>You illustrate your husband's lack of enthusiasm for your interview as a huge "slap in the face". Do you think that's how he intended it? Do you think your husband hates you with every fiber of his being? That he's staying in the marriage solely for the point of torturing you?<P>It's more likely that your husband doesn't respond in the way YOU want him to because he's both "clueless" (no skills or training) and you haven't helped give him positive reasons to react in a better way. You can change your husband and your situation for the better---but it will take a lot of effort on your part, and you need to be in a better state of mind. <P>Please do make a trip to your doctor's to get on appropriate anti-depressant medication.

I'm not quite sure I exactly understand where we are in disagreement, so I'll just maybe ramble some of my own ideas a little more and see where that goes.<P>I believe that a healthy relationship has to have give and take, and that it takes two independent people who are able to look after themselves, working in cooperation to build something that is greater than the sum of the parts. This will involve a lot of negotiation, including who does what when, division of labor, money, finding common interests, doing things together, and most importantly building emotional and physical support. I also understand the concept of laying down the law on love-busters. Sometimes that is necessary. So I guess I couldn't say in a particular case whether or not requesting change is appropriate.<P>But whenever I hear someone saying "I'm not getting what I need from somebody" I always wonder three things: What do you need so badly? Why do you need it exactly that way? And if you are the one who needs it, why don't you take responsibility for getting it? I believe we build up these expectations ourselves. They come out of our own heads. And then we transpose responsibility for meeting these needs we created on to another person. Other people do not exist to meet our needs. They have their own needs that need to be filled, their own joys and sorrows, and there own dreams and ideas. They can only give what they can and they are not obligated to give anything at all if they choose not to.<P>For example, (I am using a physical example because it is more concrete), if I want a new Porsche Boxter (nice car, I like it in red the best), it would be unfair for me to expect my wife to come up with the money for it. I will have to work hard, get the kind of job required to pay for such things above and beyond the needs of the family, and then once I've done all of that myself I can consider buying something like that for myself. But to suggest that my wife needs to work harder so I can have such things would be ridiculous.<P>In the end I am advocating taking responsibility for your own happiness. Two happy people can then "share" responsibility for certain "needs", perhaps each picking up the things they are best at for both, and thus form a complementary bond. The whole will be greater than the sum of the parts.<P>But once one person starts making demands on the other that they are not able or willing to meet, things go haywire. It's not fair.<BR>

K, <P>Your advice is so good, and applicable in most cases... but in some cases... as with an alcoholic ( active or dry with no recovery) spouse, marriage counseling will just never work because they rarely have any buy in, they live in a self-centered, emotionally isolated world.<P>I believe the best suggestion for Wonder is to let go of hopes for the marriage right now (I don't mean physically leave) and get help just for yourself. Like K said, consider help for depression... also, find a program like al-anon. I'm attending a spirituality program right now, and seeing a therapist who specializes in co-dependency, and it is doing wonders for ME. I taking little steps toward living my own life and focusing on myself and my daughter and being pleasant around my husband but not expecting anything from him relationshipwise. I'm learning to change my attitude and behaviors for my own benefit right now... maybe these changes wil spark a realization in my Husband, maybe not... will I leave or stay? I'm not focusing on that right now, I have to be healthy to make that decision.<P>Harley's principles are applicable to a point, but in our situation, the initial focus needs to be regaining our health... physical and spiritual. <P>My apologies again K, Your advise is always so wonderful and seems to make sense for so many. Unfortunately, the alcoholic mind does not respond as would reasonably be expected... so the tools don't work.

K.........<P> For your imfomation I am on anti-depressants. And I did see a thereapist for a year. And we did go to counceling together 3 times. It did nothing but bring up more pain and hurt. I AM AND REPEAT AM NOT IN LOVE ANYMORE. I cannot force feelings that are not there. I have tryed repeat again tryed to suggest things to make him spountanous for us and you know what kind of answer I got. I feel like I am being graded or tested. He was a heavy drinker K bet you did not know that part huh? Thats where I left my feelings after I saw how and what we were through the years and most of it was not there.Thereapist said that his drinking was only part of it. We never communicated. Now maybe you get the picture. He does not try and change the things I would have liked seen changed. Don't get me wrong hes a better person without the booze but he also is different. I love him as a person and father and yes he knows this. Ya know believe it or not some couples I would say alot of them live like roomates and people never know it. I won't do that for the rest of my life.

GBM,<P>My two cents???? Follow your heart. I gave one three days ago. Today is my ten year anniversary and it actually went well. I still have hope and he actually saw the light. I don't know if it will last but I'm just going to go with the flow. Follow your heart. It's the only thing that knows the answers. <P>Steph

\<P><p>[This message has been edited by HollyAnn (edited July 08, 1999).]

Wonder,<P>Actually, I had forgotten that you were dealing with an (ex?)alcoholic. So my apologies there---if he indeed is still drinking, there's little you can do to make the marriage a good place to be. In fact, emotional withdrawal is typically counseled for those spouses unwilling to divorce their alcoholic spouse.<P>You're saying that you're on antidepressants, but yet you seem to be exhibiting (through your posts on "not in love I-III") classic signs of depression. If you're on Prozac, you can build up a "tolerance" to it so that it becomes ineffective. You may want to talk to your doctor if you feel that the medication has become ineffective---but you're probably in the best position to judge this.<P>You say you've done therapy (a year) and three sessions of marriage counseling, and that they were not helpful (at least the marriage counseling). My guess is that you saw a practicing psychoanalyst---this disipline of psychology/psychiatry specializes in identifying past trauma as sources of present problems. It can be very painful, and very ineffective in terms of solving your present-day problems. I would suggest that if you have the strength left, that you see either a behavioral psychologist (the MB principles are behavioral-based) or a Solution-oriented brief therapist (ala Michele Weiner-Davis, <A HREF="http://www.divorcebusting.com" TARGET=_blank>http://www.divorcebusting.com</A> ). These forms of therapy will be more "results oriented", and you should either see measurable progress, or pitch your counselor. I saw three different therapists during my wife's affair, and Steve Harley at Marriage Builders (a behavioralist) was far and away the most effective of the three (and the cheapest, to boot).<P>Wonder, you say that you're not in love anymore. Then why do you stay in a miserable marriage??? It's not doing you any good, it's probably of questionable value to your children (I'm not sure how old they are). <P>My wife was no longer "in love" with me when she had her affair. But we're still together, and that love has returned. I'm guessing that her withdrawal from my behaviors is no where near as severe as your withdrawal from your husband's behaviors, but there are still avenues available to you to get those feelings back for your husband (if he's not drinking). That's if you would choose to stay. You appear to be at a point where you don't want to stay---and I would suggest that you do a physical separation as a staged plan to either divorce or a big "wake-up" call to your husband. If after living apart you feel "better" about divorce, and your husband shows no desire to change his behavior, than a divorce will be relatively "trauma-free". If your husband shows a huge desire to make things work, then you're faced with a tough decision: how to work on a marriage when you've got a lot of anger and resentment towards the other spouse (a low love bank...).<P>Wonder, I didn't want to imply that I was taking cheap shots at you. You truly seem to be very desparate in this marriage, and I'd like to see you work your way out from under that desparation. I'd also suggest again that you might want to try counseling with Steve Harely (or Dr. Harley, if he would take you): Dr. Harley's speciality before he started marriage counseling was with chemical dependancy (alcohol and drugs), and he might have a program to help you out with your situation.

Thanks all!!!! This is a great duscussion, I didn't expect all the posts and don't really have time to give each the time they deserve. <BR>Wonder, you sound like me (i'm also on anti depressants) and I believe you need to deal with your situation before you tackle the marraige problems.<BR>Steph, thanks for your input; but my heart doesn't know what it should do. It wants this family happy and together. But my everyday life is sometimes hell at worst, bearable at best. I don't want my kids to grow up like this. (hey it was our 10th anniversary last month)---best of luck to you! <BR>Non-plused--I didn't get that at al lfrom your first post to me!! And that's why I wrote my original post. I DON'T want to give an ultimatium. But wondered if it would help. I don't really want to change my husband. I realize that he will never be a romantic man, or cherish me. But he DID court me at one time. He would show up to take me to lunch. he would THINK about me on occassion. Now he is too wrapped up in his own thoughts to have time to enjoy me or life. He doesn't let himself enjoy ANYTHING. And I'm not saying these things as a critism of him., it just a sad fact. We tend to bring each other down (between my depression---treated---- and his anxiety---untreated----- sometimes we are a sorrry set of parents.)<BR>And yes, I have been completely honest with him about my feelings. For some reason it has not helped. Maybe he is now desensitized to it all. <BR>Thanks all for your input I will come back here and reread all this a few more times. My husband and I and going to be togheth for 2 straight weeks, so I may have a bunch of new insight sooon!!

Hollyann and K........<P> No he does not drink anymore. Well maybe a glass of wine here and there. I stay right now cause for one am scared I need another job to support me and my kids if we were to go our own ways. When we went to counceling together was with my thereapist I had. She suggested back then a seperation but he won't do it. He said its all or none. So here I sit. We don't fight like we use to we just don't have conversations. If we do its about kids. He does not know how to romance or be passionate. He never has and thats something a woman needs from time to time. And hes not willing to try and change that part cause believe me have given him ideas. I have done alot of those kind of things for him in the past. So I just gave up there. So yes there were a few times he was going to leave but it was a control tactic. He said it about 4 times and never did it. I know its not all his fault from the past I resent keeping my mouth shut for so long. But whats done is done. I am bitter toward marriage and men anymore. I don't trust any of them. So right now I just live for my kids and trying to learn to be happy with myself again. And no I don't take prozac. I take another one. So thats where I am now I am trying to change my attitude toward me. I think once I get to be happy with myself again I will be ready to change the rest of my life. I have told him even I think he needs to find another person to love him for who he is now not who he was. If thats not trying to be unselfish of me don't know what more I can do. He is not in love with me either he has told me that too. He says he loves me I tell him being in love and loving someone are totally different. So he does know I am honest about my feelings for him. So guess right now we just live like strangers to each other and friends with the kids. Thats all I want is to be civil right now. My answer will come in due time.