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Hi everyone,<P>I suppose this isn't any revelation to any of us here, but he's done it again.<P>It's school holidays here, and he's got them for a week. He picked them up this morning. I always get sad thinking of them being away from me for a week, but at the same time, I do look forward to the time on my own.<P>Anyway, I gave the girls some 'pocketmoney' which eldest d told me would be spent on lots of icecreams one of which she would put in the freezer for me when she came home!!!<P>Then, HE launched into what they were going to do. They were going to the beach, going to the movies, going to MovieWorld on the Gold Coast, walking the dog etc etc etc.<BR>I asked him to stop right there, because (as I said to him)<BR>"don't take this the wrong way but I don't want to know. These are all the things that I asked you to do with me."<P>There was silence, then he gathered up the girls and put them in the car. I kissed the girls, hugged them, and he drove off. Not another word was said betw. us. <P>I didn't say it nastily or with attitude, but I was going to burst into tears if he had continued. <P>I just feel so sad. Why will he do these things with someone else, but never would with me. It hurts so much sometimes, even now.<P>I just don't get it. Maybe I never will.<P>Oh, and here's another one. Last weekend he had a wedding to go to, it was his weekend with the girls and he couldn't get a babysitter. I offered to have them that weekend, as I couldn't stand the thought of my girls being babysat while I was at home not doing very much!! He was very appreciative of this. Then he said "It's something I've commited to Jo, I have to go. It's not my wedding though"<P>Like, what?? Of course a wedding is something that you commit to going to, but he made such a point to saying that it wasn't his wedding. I just said to him "good luck to you if it is". It shocked me. It was probably said as a joke on his part, but it hit home. Why would he even say that.<P>This is too much today. I'm in a horrible mood, not angry, just maudlin and sad. Don't know what to do with myself. The house seems so empty without my two rascals here. I've got another week to go. I hate this.<P>How are you all over there? We've agreed to stand shoulder to shoulder with you, which makes me feel good. This has to be stopped. Maybe this is all part and parcel of my mood today..........<P>love and hugs to you all<P>Jo

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(((((((((((((((((((Jo))))))))))))))))))))))))<P>I don't even know what to say...I keep hearing the bad things that happen, and I just can't think of something that will help.<P>Maybe try not to think about it too much, sometimes things are said in the moment that we regret, but it is done now, and what he said to you is as well. Don't dwell on it or you will be sadder for longer.<P>So, filling in that time without the kids...do you have plans? Catch up with friends, spend some time just walking, playing favourite music, soaking in the bath for the longest time you want without interruption, cook anything YOU like for dinner, get drunk (!) - just once while they are gone, [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] go treat yourself to a manicure or a new haircut, just sit in the silence and RELISH it....<P>Enjoy this time for you as much as you can, and you will be fresh and ready for your kids when they come home.<P>You are doing well, just as you told me, no LB's - well I suppose it is if he got upset....but hey, that's his guilt showing [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com].<P>Take care, girl!<P>BTW are you near a beach?<P>And I'm gonna have to go for Essendon next week...they are a Victorian team, after all! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

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J&J,<P>Am I the only Yank up this hour? errr.....guess so, LOL<P>Jo....you know how I feel about you...(Mad Love!)<BR>.....Jacky.....you are such a wonderful addition to these boards, it ain't even funny. Course....wish neither of you were here....<P>G'Day Mate/ettes!!<P>Love, <P>Xman

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Errrr......<P>Make that....G'day Sheilas!!!!<P>I wish y'all had kept Paul Hogan Down Under...WAYYYYY down under!!!<P>Again,<BR>Xman

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Xman,<P>Thank you for the wonderful compliment, I needed that right now, as I was having a pity party here by myself. <P>Jo has been great to me, too. Everyone here has, and that's why i keep coming back, to give a little to them, too.<P>Love and light,<P>Jacky<P>

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bonnet:<BR>Then, HE launched into what they were going to do. They were going to the beach, going to the movies, going to MovieWorld on the Gold Coast, walking the dog etc etc etc.<BR>I asked him to stop right there, because (as I said to him)<BR>"don't take this the wrong way but I don't want to know. These are all the things that I asked you to do with me."<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>For what it's worth, I think you made a great response. He was saying things that hurt, and you spoke up to defend yourself in a loving way. For the childrens sake, I hope they had a good time with their dad. For your H's sake, I hope the bubble of his puffed up self image is burst. <P>I was just about to make a short post, but thinking about it a bit more really chaps my hide. I'm curious what you think about his comments on a deeper level. On one hand, he could have been a clueless, hapless clod babbling about the day's events, not thinking for a minute that he was hurting your feelings. Do you suppose, though, that he knew full well that his comments would be hurtful for you? Superficially, what on earth could be wrong with walking the dogs, going to the beach, and going to the movies. The kids would love it. In their eyes, dad is being a good dad. How cruel it would be for him to take such innocent activities and use them as an invisible dagger aimed straight at you. The invisible dagger is something Patricia Evans describes in her books. I hope for your sake that he was simply being a clumsy fool. Now that you've expressed your hurt, you'll know it was "accidental" if it stops. If not, you'll know he used the invisible dagger on purpose.

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Bonnett:<BR>I also went through this situation where ex,OW, would take my daughter off to do things, that I used to pracically beg ex to do with us, when we were a "family". One day I finally asked him about what was so wrong with our family, that he would never do anything with us, but now he is so willing to? He never could give a really precise answer, but it mainly stemmed from still being in the height of the fog with some guilt thrown in. While in the throngs of a new relationship, they seem to be trying to build their own little wonderful world together including your child.<BR> They want to be seen as good people and Daddy wnats to make up to the child for hurting them. I used to cry my eyes out when daughter went off with the "lovebirds", as I used to call them, and it took a while to get over it. The newness of all the stuff they do will gradually wear off, and everyday activities will start back. The Disneyland Dad comes to an end fairly quickly. I finally decided one day to go out and do the stuff I had wanted to do with him--and you know what, I enjoyed it. Although being with him would have been nicer, I still had a good time and realized I didn't need him to enjoy things, and probably had a better time, without him because I could contol the situation and didn't have to be on his time schedule--it was my outing!!<BR>My advice--go do the things you never got to do with him, even if you have to go without the kids!!.

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From db713:<P><B>While in the throngs of a new relationship, they seem to be trying to build their own little wonderful world together including your child.<BR>They want to be seen as good people and Daddy wnats to make up to the child for hurting them. I used to cry my eyes out when daughter went off with the "lovebirds", as I used to call them, and it took a while to get over it.</B><P>This is precisely why I sped up coming back to Australia...it was NOT appropriate for him to do that, and I would not let him set up his little fantasy world.<P>It is all about boundaries, and he overstepped mine, big time.<BR> Throwing it in your face and that of your kids, is just not on.<P>Bonnet, I thought you also moved to get away from H, or have I misunderstood? If I didn't, did he follow you there?<P>love and light,<P>Jacky

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Hi Jo,<P>yes, the dreams, that we had for our marriage, still hurt us when they are shattered, and again when we see them happening without us. I will always say <B> a divorce because of an affair is the equivalent to a living death. </B> Actual death is final, and there was nothing you could do (most times), so you grieve without the regrets of stuff one could have done differently to save it.<P>However, as I had a similar conversation with X, they have a complete change of character, thought process, etc. something happens internally, and they are changed forever. kind of like a computer worm which activates at some point in the future, and destroys their operating system and memory.<P>I could be guilty of your husband's behavior, but only because I got caught up in the belief that i had a responsibility, as my parent's had taught me, for my kid's education and future. Therefore, I worked very hard for more than 10 years, after being unemployed and almost broke, to work up to a decent standard of living, and X said that I put that ahead of her desires. Yet, when i suggested activities to do, she would hesitate, complain, not be super cooperative, even if it was a free vacation on my company. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] So it was a clash of our values, mine for work and saving for the future, hers for I don't know what. Other than she has told me that her dad used to be fun and then her mom put the stop to that with her control hissy fits, and negative behavior. And since I saw her turning into her mom (even though she denies it) and what she wanted as a husband (like her dad, ICK!) I actually thank her for releasing me from her past, and I now work very hard against her slimy values, so that the kids have a higher road to see to follow if they want.<P>So now, I work differently, have more fun time with the kids, etc. but i still make them responsible for their homework, etc. even more so than with X. part of my conversation this morning was that X told me she was a worrier, and she NEEDS to be called to see if the kids are ok when we go on a long trip, her words, <B> long trip </B> (the drive was 1 hour 30 minutes [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] so when I have the kids on my weekend, its not enough for her to see them in the morning at soccer games, in the late afternoon at soccer games, and to <B> not </B> have a phone call at night. (if this isn't a person loaded with guilt or regret!) She can't just let me have my time with them for more than about 24 hours, without checking on them.<P>Give me a break, I was fine as a dad for her to leave to go for a week to a conference a couple of years before the divorce. Now, I can't have them for more than a day. Is there something wrong here?????????<P>So, think back to your marriage, and ask yourself if your work lifestyle or your attitude turned off your X from doing the stuff he wanted to do as a family. Then ask yourself if you can provide for your kids the lifestyle and values that you want, but now have the total control to implement, regardless of what X does or doesn't do.<P>Jo, it could be very well that your X really needs to find a better person for HIM, and although it makes us feel bad, maybe we deserve a better person than they were.<P>Life is not all bad but just takes some good analyzation and motivation, and realization that you still have your life to live as you want.<P>good luck!<P>WIFTTy<P><p>[This message has been edited by WhenIfindthetime (edited September 24, 2001).]

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Hi guys,<P>thank you so much for responding. I appreciate it so much.<P>Jacky - thank you. All I have this week is work, work, and more work. We're very busy what with the Ansett issue etc. I'm going shopping with my Mum and sister on Fri afternoon to Sanctuary Cove and on Sat we're watching the grand final in some pub in the city.<P>ESSENDON - NO WAY................ GO LIONS...............<P>big hugs to you girl xxxx<P>XMAN - g'day mate!!!!!!!!!! Could we possible lend Paul Hogan to you for a while, say a lifetime!!! He's not too bad once you get to know him!!! Thanks for your caring, it means a lot.<P>Lonesome Heart - I don't know what his comments mean on a deeper level. He still seems so unhappy whenever I see him (maybe this is just for my benefit). But he seems so willing to forget that I ever existed and that we had a life together as a family, and is so willing to move forward with his new gf. Thank you for the invisible dagger information, I've never heard of that before. I'll keep you posted.<P>db713 - So so true. Everything you said. And I agree, the more I do with my girls, the more I enjoy them. They are beautiful little people, with so much to offer and teach me. Thank you for reinforcing and reminding me of that.<P>Nina - (again!!) No, you're right. I moved from Melb to Bne to get away from it all, he followed me up here 6 months later. He said he missed the girls and didn't want to miss out on their growing up.<P>sWIFTTy - As usual, you manage to say so succintly what I sometimes ask myself. What did I do to push him away??? I know I badgered him to spend more time with me, and his family. I know it p***ed me off to have to beg for my husbands time. I know I should have handled that differently. Next time I'll know!!! And next time I'll do better....<P><BR>thank you all so much for taking the time to respond to me when I was feeling so down. I know you all know how much I appreciate it, but I wanted you to know.<P>big hugs for you all<BR>Jo<P>

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> What did I do to push him away??? I know I badgered him to spend more time with me, and his family. I know it p***ed me off to have to beg for my husbands time. I know I should have handled that differently. Next time I'll know!!! And next time I'll do better.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>sometimes what you did were as simple as conflicting personalities, which are the highly attractive relationships, and the most difficult to manage. Other times it was as simple as who was expected to take the lead without talking about it.<P>Other times, it is in the asking for leadership from the spouse, and then criticizing it afterwards. That's what the POJA tries to eliminate. I know my X would agree to something, and then we would do it, and then she would criticize it either during or after. Takes all the good memories away. . . .<P>Other times, X would suggest stuff to do, and then EXPECT me to take the leadership, and I would tell her, if that is what she wants to do, she needs to organize it. One area we disagreed on was not the vacation per se, but how we financed or what level we traveled. I wanted to spend the money to reward ourselves for the hard work we did, and she wanted to do it cheaply, and not very adventurous, not very far from home. As it is, she is now telling me that a 1 hour drive is a long way. . . never mind the kids and I drove 14 hours to some of the greatest beaches in the eastern US.<P>The comment about begging appears to me that you expected X to take the organizational lead, and he expected you to take it as the suggestion could have been yours. A lot of times, these personality quirks are not explored or recognized early, but with kids and more time pressures, the roles and expectations get more rigid and less discussed.<P>I know right now, X is asking me where I want to take the kids over February school vacation . . . . heck, i am not a long range point planner, i am a long range planner as in, this is what i want to do, i don't know when or how until within about three months or less.<P>so these are examples of simple ways different personalities and expectations can drive a wedge between a couple, especially one that uses the marriage for self esteem.<P>good luck<P>only WIFTTy this morning, need my coffee!<BR>

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Bonnet,<P>I do know what you mean. While my husband would do things on our vacations. When we were home, he wouldn't do a thing with me. I'd ask him to go swimming with me and the kids, to go for a walk with me at night, take me out, anything. He always had excuses, such as "I've gained too much weight in the stomach so I wouldn't feel comfortable with swimming", "I don't like walking, too tired at night, not enough time in the morning." so forth and so on. On going out on a date (this one always got me) "I don't like to make plans in advance, I never know if I can keep them or not", or "I hate being spontaneous and planning things at the last minute, I need to plan these things in advance" [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] <P>Anyway, now that we are divorcing, he tells me he goes for a swim a lot and it helps him to feel better. The kids tell me how dad takes them here or there and how they go swimming almost every day when they are with him. I have thought about "What the heck is up with that?" But it did occur to me that he is basically losing it inside and his counselor or someone must of suggested for him to stay active and he must of tried a few things and realized what a great stress reliever they are for him right now. However, I think once things settle down and he finds someone else in his life and his life gets back to the ho-hum life he always has, and he gets comfortable with the feeling the o/w loves him and won't leave him, then he'll fall right back into his old ways. Although, for his sake and for whom ever he falls in love with, I hope that is not the case, I hope he will continue to do things that will relieve his stress and make him feel better. Even after realizing all this, I do know, in the future when the children tell me about the things they did with their dad, I am sure I will still always feel that saddness and think "Dang, I wish he would have done those things when we were together.", but on the outside I'm just going to say "That is so great, your dad really loves you guys so much!"<P>Well, just wanted to let you know, I have a lot of those same feelings too.<P>Take care,<P>ANNA<P> <BR>

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Anna,<P>Ever considered the possibility that he might be doing an instinctive Plan A on ya?<P>Jacky

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Anna<P>it could be as simple as "your X isn't/wasn't very good marriage material." Could be that there he has a minor case of ODD, i know that my X did, though it is weird to understand. (and it runs in families)<P>but my point is that there are certain people who have learned to get attention by being disagreeable, and this is very difficult to see ahead of time. I know one other woman who had a second marriage, and the person did the exact same thing, changed competely to a couch potato/disagreeable person as long as he was married, but was very easy going without marriage. <P>Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD)<P>These are aggressiveness and a tendency to purposefully bother and irritate others. The criteria for ODD are:<P>A pattern of negativistic, hostile, and defiant behavior lasting at least six months during which four or more of the following are present:<P> * 1. Often loses temper<BR> * 2. often argumentative<BR> * 3. often actively defies or refuses to comply with requests or rules<BR> * 4. often deliberately annoys people<BR> * 5. often blames others for his or her mistakes or misbehavior<BR> * 6. is often touchy or easily annoyed by others<BR> * 7. is often angry and resentful<BR> * 8. is often spiteful and vindictive<P>now there are degrees, but my point is there are some people who have a weird view of marriage and are NOT good spouses.<P>My X showed alot of these symptoms, as did her GM. so it does run in families, and you need to be HIGHLY compatible with these people to get along smoothly most of the time.


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