AD,<P>Cool, that you are starting to move on. You will have those days of wanting to try and days of wanting to give up. I think eventually if she doesn't come to her senses then those days of moving on will outweight the ones of continuing to try.<P>AD, from talking with you, I could be wrong, but some of the good things in your wife that you see, is just not there, it's the way you really want her to be, but she's more of a fantasy than a reality. I think, like you said, she is an immature, emotionally unbalanced person, who will continue to make your life unhappy. You will constantly be trying to hold on to something that just can't be held on to. You deserve happiness, you deserve the very best. I sure don't think she's the very best though. She's a very selfish person and you are a very giving person and she just took advantage of your giving nature and made herself out to be something she never was.<P>You are getting stronger every day and starting to see her for what she really is. She needs to grow up and the only way she will ever do this is to get a job. Even if this means she gets a job at night and you take care of the baby for her. I know you said she's still nursing but the baby is 11 months old, I think if she really wanted to, she could ween that baby from nursing. You need to make an appointment with the babies doctor and talk together with the doctor regarding nursing, starting the baby slowly on some oatmeal and babyfood, and on the baby starting to drink from sippy cups. <P>I wonder if her continuing to nurse is her way of not getting a job. She knows as long as she continues to nurse, she will have the upper hand. She won't have to work, she can continue with you supporting her totally. Well, by now you know I am not thinking too highly of your wife. Although, I do know she's young, she's immature and maybe someday she'll be the person she really should be. Let her grow up though. Don't support her totally 100% forever.<P>Also, you can eventually detach yourself from your wife, but you never, never have to stop being this babies father. Your baby needs your and needs the stability a father can give her.<P>Take care, AD,<P>ANNA

Got Truth,<P>Sorry, but I still don't agree with all SNL said. I think it's the biggest dramatization of bull crap I have ever heard regarding a WS. WS's are human beings too. I know a couple of women who were a WS's, trying for years begging and pleading their husband to do the right thing. They catered to these men. They finally did have an affair but this does not make them a monster, only people who made a mistakes. I am still, and always will be there friends. There are WS's out there who try and try and try and never get results. So they finally cut their spouses off, and give up, then those spouses finally see the light. Well it's just too little too late. Sure the WS is worng for the actions but dang it they are not monsters, just human beings. We all need to see our part in what happened and what went wrong in our marriages, we can all benefit from bettering ourselves because of this. Some of these BS's who don't look at what they do wrong, will go into marriage after marriage after marriage and have each marriage fail. <P>There are also those spouses who have problems and these are beyond the BS's control. I realize that. Those who the BS never did a thing wrong. Also, those who didn't really get a chance, an opporunity to make their marriage what it should be. These BS's don't deserve being cut off totally and feeling like they didn't even exist. This is sad, very sad, but although I'd never be a friend to these lowlife WS's, they are not monsters either. BS's and WS's are all human beings and neither of these deserve to be called monsters for what they did. <P>SNL, is a person who over dramatizes in almost every post he has ever posted. He is a trouble maker, I even wonder about his true intentions. What is he really doing on this forum? Is he trying to better himself? Does he want to change? Does he see the mistakes he made? All I see when I read SNL's theory's is a very skewed mind and a very angry person. He says hurtful and mean things to people. It makes me wonder how many times he hurt his spouse with his sharp tongue. I know if he is anything like the person on here that makes such mean comments, I would cry every day if I were his spouse. I think he needs to take a good look deep inside of him.<P>Got truth, I have always loved reading everything you post, even this comment, you put your feelings aside and just read his one message. You like his message and that's great. I just see anger and bitterness in the message I read. A person who needs to get a grip on reality and come back to earth.<P>Take care GT,<P>ANNA<p>[ October 14, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]

SNL,<P>you bring up great points. Yes, i was married to a sociopath, under those scenarios. Funny, I knew something was wrong many times, and told one of my best men before the wedding, that "she doesn't fit into my life." he laughed, and asked, "Well, why are you marrying her?" I didn't have an answer then, but I do now. (I was afraid to say no and give up the good times.)<P>There were other times while married that I comptemplated it, but got talked out of it, and then realized I had to be a grown up the other time.<P>However, once i did stop being manipulated, and did stand my ground very seriously, the relationship deteriorated very quickly. The manipulation was incredible, and she still tries the same tricks, time after time, even after we are divorced, and I give her the same answer, time after time. This of course is a LB, but so be it.<P>good post, do you have good reading material on sociopaths? thanks<P>WIFTTy

Anna<BR>My Post only pertains to the "profile of a sociopath". SNL is correct in this. It would be of benefit for people to know that there are alot of such people out there. If you are aware that you are attached to one, you can stop "banging your head against a brick wall". <BR>Other than that, I find SNL to be tiresome. I do believe he does like to "hear himself talk". <BR>When there IS something worth "hearing" I just hate to see people dismiss it because of where the "information" comes from.

Got truth,<P>I agree with you on that one. I agree to that some our sociopaths. Not all of them though.<P>ANNA

Yeah, alright, in **theory** I agree with the "sociopath" thing, but to me, it hinged on something more. <P>My ex could be verbally/emotionally abusive. I loved him anyway, and I believe he loved me too. He might have changed, and he might not have. At this point, I guess it doesn't matter. <P>What does matter is that I decided, after some therapy and prayer (and continued punishment/abuse), that it was over (i.e. your Plan C, Anna)... but <B>not before</B> I did everything within me to save the marriage. <P>Nobody was as shocked as I was that my marriage ended. I know that sounds kind of silly, if not outright dishonest, but I am serious. <P>I feel like you have to try as hard as you can before you go to Plan anything -- and nobody but you can make the determination of how much you will take, or how long you will try, but YOU.

hey anna, foul foul, you brought in other stuff to pummel me about. I responded to the issue of ws (or whoever) that treat a bs callously and heartlessly, sociopaths are real, they do exist, and they do marry. And when they are found out they behave as some of you described. I did NOT say ws in general are sociopaths, nor did I say my wife is, but I could tell you what the counsellor said about her (but I won't, is inapporopriate). I will also note that it is not unusual to blame the victim of a sociopathic type personality, especially when they start standing up for themself, people often side with the sociopath, depending on how skillful they are, I could write volumes on this, I have dealt with 2 (for sure) in my life, and even when I KNEW what was happening, still they suck you in. The only defense is to understand, and disconnect your emotions, deal with them only logically. They cannot manipulate you rationally, (cause you realize this is nuts), they work through your emotions. Thanks for the impromtu pschoanalysis though, but did feel like a little displaced anger.

nina, I do worry about that from time to time (heck I worry about everything), but I agonize waaaaaaay to much over others, and regularly make too many sacrifices for others benefits, to be a sociopath. I am just your garden variety pain in the [censored]. Although you won't see much evidence of it here, cause I am amongst strangers, and mostly truthseeking, my biggest promblem in life is not taking care of myself cause I am too busy taking care of everyone else. So I am a conflict avoider, and harmonizer (everyone play nice please), and all that annoying stuff...but I have turned over a new leaf, think more of myself these days, and it has really annoyed everyone in my life....I wonder why.

SNL,<P>So sorry, I forgot for a moment. Everybody in your life is wrong and you are right. Please forgive me for my error in judgement.<P>ANNA

ok, you are forgiven, no harm done [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

SNL<BR>Has it occured to you that you MIGHT be more effective if you:<BR>1. would shorten your posts<BR>2. try to leave out "disrespectful judgements" ex. the asside about what your counselor may have said about your wife.<P>There have been times when I've thought, "right on" but the information is so steeped in anger that it's dismissed.<P>I want you to know that I read a post your wrote to "bad hubby". It was a thread over at QA. It was a funny thread where everyone was writing a chapter. What BH wrote was inapropreite and you told him so. I was truly touched by what you said, about how so many people have been hurt here and his was not funny and it truly wasn't funny. It was then that I thought "you are really struggling yourself". <BR>You write alot. Some is realy good. You have alot to contriubute. Please just edit. No disrespectful judgements about your wife and shorter. OK<BR>I'll be checking on you. I have a prize if your good. (you can go through and check my spelling, that should keep you busy) [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <P>This is NOT a flame SNL, this is a sincere request, please read it as such.

Thanks gottruth, I value all input, I really do, even the occassional flames. You have no idea how much I DON'T write [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] . I do have some sort of issue with being understood and so overcompensate, it is a lifelong process trying to deal with it. Probably has something to do with my chaotic childhood (doesn't it always). I thought about your observation re anger, it is something I do think about, I hate anger, really really hate it. It is possible I have some anger and have buried it deep. (I don't mean normal friciton, and irritations of daily life). I was very angry with my wife for first 10 years or so, she said she would change if I married her, and then she didn't. But I knew I took that risk, It was eventually more than I could take, it was consuming me, so I gave it up to God, and it went away, like a boulder being lifted. I don't think I am angry, I am a little miffed in an angry way (and state it as anger sometimes), that it took an affair to get her attention. But I am not really an angry person at all. I think what you are sensing is frustration, I am HIGHLY frustrated at this point in my life, for a variety of reasons. And I am a passionate individual, so you will see much emotion in my posts, despite my efforts to keep em analytical. Sometimes though (like the one to BH), I let my emotions show a bit. And I have a well developed sense of fairplay, so you will see that alot, especially as I post from the ws point of view, bs are very judgemental about ws, and that is flat out wrong. Thanks again for your comments.

SNL<BR>Well, you handled that pretty well!<P>Careful though, I read MANY post by BS's who take responsibility. Take care to notice, OK<BR> <BR>Nicely said.

If you have no interest in Plan A or Plan B, or working on anything, why are you here?

I'm in Plan C too. This year, I've been finally moving on....closing that chapter of my life.<P>I too sent a suggestion for a "moving on" type of discussion area. I think it's valid, even on a Marriage Builders forum. It seems like the Divorced/Divorcing forum would fit the bill, but it doesn't always seem to.<P>I believe in these principles. They've helped me make it thru a really rough spot. They've helped me see things that I could have done differently in my marriage. And if I ever do have another relationship, I would like to use the MB principles in that relationship.<P>So even tho we may not be in Plan A, B or working on our marriage, I think there is still room on this board for me. I am still part of the MB family. And what better place to discuss a new relationship? If I'm ever going to "build" a better marriage in the future, this is the perfect spot for me to start.<P>Aloha,<BR>Ms.O<p>[ October 15, 2001: Message edited by: Ms.O ]

Cinderlla<BR>I found MB because My D is/was having an A with a MM. This was such a shock and we reacted badly. I needed to have some understand of this behavior and the mind set behind it. MB has given us, husband and I, that information. It has helped me to cope and to learn that we need to "not be apart of the flame that keeps these A's going." We are in Plan A with her.<P> I believe that MB is also helping ME to be a better person. I have followed a story line here "STEEL REELING". Mostly because she has four kidos and D's MM also has four little one. BTW, I know this is NOT the same family, just an explaination of how this happened. Her, SR, story has helped me see the result of a realy good Plan A. not just with this story but in life. <P>I hope that this makes sence to you.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cinderella:<BR><STRONG>If you have no interest in Plan A or Plan B, or working on anything, why are you here?</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I came here looking for help saving my marriage. That was not meant to be.<P>I stay here looking for help moving on after the divorce, and trying not to make the same mistakes that landed me in the relationship it was such a relief to be out of.

Cinderella,<P>I am sorry you feel just because we our not in A or B we may not have a right to be here. I am here because I like the support I get from the other posters. I like the MB methods. I use these methods in a lot of aspects of my life. I have even found some concepts useful with my children, for instance the POJA can be modified to help me raise my children. I can in the future and already have used this agreement with my children. I am trying to better myself. Mb has bettered me. It's made me realize to stop blaming, stop the anger and get on with my life. The people here for the most part have gave me good, sound advice, that I have really appreciated. I will continue on MB because I want to better myself. Someday I hope to use the MB methods in my new marriage.<P>If a person on here is posting just to be mean and cause problems. To start arguments. I could see questioning why they are here, but to question whether a person who is on here giving and getting sincere advice, just because they don't want to be in a marriage that is physical or mentally abusive is not mine or anyone else place, accept Dr. Harley's or the moderators. I also worry about others and myself defending the reasons we are here to another MBer are we now all going to go back and read each others post that felt they had to answer "Why are you here?" and say "Oh, this person belongs here, but this person doesn't belong here, and so forth..." What gives us the right to question others as long as they are posting helpful solutions and asking sincerely for help? <P>Also, Cinderella, when I first came on MB, I read the definitions of the forums, EN says you should post after reading Emotional Needs, post question here, I read emotional needs before I went on E/N. The first forum after reading about Dr. Harley and some of this concepts, was Divorced/Divorcing, the definition given under the Divorced/Divorcing forum gives this defintion: <P>Divorced/Divorcing A place for support and sharing.<P>I thought I qualified and well as most of the others here. If I am wrong, I would appreciate if you would have Mr. Harley or one of the moderators point out to me the reasons I or any others should be here. You know Dr. Harley's comments on domestic abuse is if that person is in an environment they feel threatened in they should get out. He has said sometimes a spouse will and can never guarantee the safety of that person. My husband has told me he can not guarantee my safety. So if I worked on my current marriage. Would I be following Dr. Harley's concepts?<P>Cinderella, reading your other posts, I always thought you were kind and sincere, and I still do. I don't agree with the posts you posted this time, but we are all different and won't agree with what everyone writes all the time. Even the kindest of people. <P>If I am taking your comments wrong. Please accept my apologies. If you were truly questioning the ones who are here, who aren't working on their current marriages, and because you are still working on your marriage and this is why you are still on MB, I hope you will realize, we all have our own reasons for being on MB, each of these reasons may be different, while yours is still to save your marriage, mine and others is to make ourselves a better person for the next marriage, but almost always everyone at MB has sincere reasons for being here. <P>Sincerely,<BR>ANNA<p>[ October 15, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]

Thanks....I'm not sure how I read Cinderella's post originally. But I know she has a good heart, and didn't mean to take it negatively, if I did.<P>I just wanted to make the point that there are many people here, for many different reasons. Some are here to better themselves...but many are here out of shear desperation. I know when I first came here, I just needed help...and quick!! I had no idea that I needed to DO anything about myself. <P>I think as long as we respect each other and basically agree with the MB concepts, there is room here for all.<P>I do wish however, that there was a place for those of us who tried to keep our marriages together, but for whatever reason, it wasn't possible. Part of this process, for me anyway, is to learn how to go on. How to get better. How to make better choices for my current, as well as future relationships. <P>I estimate that the majority of people here who do end up getting a divorce, will go on to other serious and/or loving relationships. I think these principles can apply even to those type of relationships. And who knows, if or when a relationship like that moves toward marriage, then these principles DEFINATELY apply.<P>Just my 2 cents....<BR>Aloha,<BR>Ms.O<p>[ October 15, 2001: Message edited by: Ms.O ]

<p>[ October 15, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]