<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You are right - it benefits no one to read about how happy WS's are with their boy/girlfriends.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is not the first time we've butted heads.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=34&t=002757" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=34&t=002757</A> <P>I had an abusive husband.<P>I had an emotional affair.<P>I ended my emotional affair and tried to work things out with my husband.<P>He refused to admit any wrongdoing. He wanted me to let him have a physical affair because of what I did. Heck, he wanted me to watch and participate.<P>I left my abusive husband.<P>I found out he was having an emotional affair and details of how they were going to meet and make it physical. Perhaps they did.<P>I started dating before the divorce was final. <P>If you want to call me a WS because of it, that's fine.<P>There were a LOT of times I could have had a physical affair and didn't. I'm not looking for a pat on the back for that.<P>But, life after divorce is not all doom and gloom for everyone.<P>I don't even know why I feel I have to respond and defend myself. I think I'm suffering from the emotional tidal waves too ...<p>[ October 23, 2001: Message edited by: Princess Buttercup ]

I am not "calling" you a WS - that is not a matter of opinion, it is a definition. I will merely repeat what I said in the post linked above.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>YES YOU CAN. It is a basic tenet of the marriage builders philosophy that you do NOT share marital problems with anyone of the opposite sex, , that you do NOT have friends of the opposite sex who are not also friends of your spouse, and if you are having conversations with or spending time with a person of the opposite sex and you would hesitate to tell your spouse about it, that is wrong. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I am well aware that the way to get what you want out of life is to take it, regardless of whether it is right or wrong. I have seen plenty of evidence of it. I do not appreciate, however, having those who have done so come to this board to gloat over it. There are people here who have been WS's and who feel guilty about it (like Nyneve), and then there are others who are merely here to gloat. What purpose does that serve? How does that further the MB cause?

Nellie,<P>Who gave you the authority to decide which people were here in sincerity, and which were here to gloat???<P>I read that linked post. You haven't a clue about abuse, and your own bitterness leaks into your every word.

hmmmmmmmmmmm....I see some people never change. Realize that some people just don't *get it*.<P>Have faith...one day they will understand.<P>Princess Buttercup -- yer right! Life after divorce is NOT all doom and gloom. Sometimes it just takes a bit longer for others to see the brighter side of things. I'm actually happy about my divorce now. Should have happened years ago! There is a peace and quiet in my house that I NEVER thought I would hear. It's nice to have the dog out and about instead of hiding under the table. The kids are happier and most of the pictures now have real smiles instead of those fake ones yah know? Yep....life is improving every moment!

Princess,<P>Welcome to MB again. <P>Who belongs at MB is outlined in the "Welcome Page."<P>Here's that page,<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi01_forum.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi01_forum.html</A> <P>Here's a quote from that page.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>This forum is open to not only those who have questions, but also to those with comments or suggestions. We recommend that all participants of the discussion forum be familiar with Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Here's the rules at participating in MB. <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=agree" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=agree</A> <P>As long as you and any participant follow these rules then that person belongs at MB. No matter what stage of happiness they are currently at in their life.<P>I'm glad you have found happiness in your life and hope you are using the MB methods in your relationship to make it the best ever. Everyone deserves a second chance. We all, no matter what our situation, deserve to find happiness, and better ourselves.<P>I hope you will stay at MB and know the persons who are angry with someone else's happiness are really just hurt souls that need to heal. Find patience with others. Also, I file away the things I read here that don't make me a better person and concentrate on the majority of things I read here that do make me better.<P>I have learned recently as a participant of MB if I have a problem with someone's comments here, it is not my job to post a comment saying they don't belong or their opinion is not welcome at Mb. As I am not the creator of this site. Instead for the sake of harmony on the forums I and others need only post these comments to the Moderators of MB.<P>Again, Welcome to MB,<P>ANNA

When I first came to MB the people here actually cared about restoring marriages. That is clearly NOT the case for a great many (although certainly not all) here anymore. I never said you can't post whatever you want - but I have every right to let you know how it makes me feel. <P>This post has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with abuse. This post has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not anyone should have gotten a divorce. Those issues are completely irrelevant to my answer to your post. This has only to do with whether it is a kind thing for WS's to come here and say how happy they are now with their boy/girlfriends, how cheating on their spouses was justifiable, etc. etc. <P>There is no law against OW's from the TOW board coming over here and posting either, but people sure give them a hard time when they post invade this forum and post things that are insensitive and cruel. <P>I have not seen any evidence whatsoever of any remorse on your part about your affair. It seems to me that you think you are perfectly justified in what you have done. I have every right to say what I think of that kind of attitude. <P>MB has changed and changed horribly in the almost three years I have been here. This forum in particular is NOT about marriages, it is not about right and wrong. Obviously I do not belong here anymore.<P>I have no interest in being on a forum where people jump down your throat for objecting to the statements of unremorseful betrayers.

Princess,<P>One more suggestion.<P>If someone is trying to pull you into a feud and they continually try to push your buttons. You have the right to ignore that person totally. You do not have to be pulled into these arguments. Just use your ignore button. Do this for you.<P>I have read a lot of articles on blame and anger recently. I am practicing the above and have found my life is happier and more at peace by not letting people who try to blame others for their own unhappiness, bitterness and anger pull me into their misery.<P>Take care,<P>ANNA<p>[ October 23, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]

Oh boy Princess,<P>I understand abuse-- Too well. <P>I understand infidelity-- Also, too well. <P>I was on that original thread, as "new_beginning" and I said to Nellie that there are reasons why women who are abused stay in abusive relationships, even when in danger. <P>I have never been in a dangerous abusive relationship, unless you consider being pulled around by the hair dangerous. Yes, it's abusive, and yes, I put up with it, because I loved him (my first H) and because I was afraid to be alone. <P>I was absolutely emotionally and verbally abused, and boy "I get it"... <P>However, none of this is was a good enough reason for ME to have an affair. It *****is***** a reason to LEAVE, but it is NOT a reason to cheat. I handled my life VERY POORLY at the time. I REGRET my choices. Perhaps that is what Nellie sees in my story.<P>This is MY personal opinion. I take FULL RESPONSIBILITY for my CHOICE to have an affair. It was SO WRONG and I VERY MUCH REGRET IT. That is MY opinion. <P>I'm not here to judge you... Lord knows, I have enough on MY plate to judge anyone else.<P>However, this being a marriage BUILDING site, I have noticed, as Nellie has, that the intent of the board has changed drastically in some ways. I never liked the idea of a divorce board (yes, even though I am divorced) because, to me, it sends the message that maybe this stuff doesn't work, and isn't the idea to give hope?<P>I have felt out of place here, as have some others, Anna2000, for one, and Nellie for another. Different reasons, same result. <P>I am one of those "if we all had a candle what a bright world it would be" people. I like harmony and peace. To me, when you call someone out for a fight, don't be surprised when it hurts some folks.<P>This feels like a war sometimes, but it doesn't have to... <P>Peace, to all...

To All,<P>I must say that I am amazed at what I see goiing on.<P>As with all that came, I felt like a ship caught in a storm of emotions and was looking for a safe harbor.<P>A place where one could express ones thoughts and feelings in an arena where people would try and be considerate.<P>After all, aren't we all in some kind of pain here?<P>I know I don't show as a Junior Member, but I have only been here less then a month and have seen so much Misplaced Anger. It is sad. I have to shake my head.<P>Don't we all need to try and look at things with the attitude of: <P>"Judge not least ye be Judged"<P>This bickering does not do anyone any good and can only cause harm. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <P>-Kat-<p>[ October 23, 2001: Message edited by: -Kat- ]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by -Kat-:<BR><STRONG>"Judge not least ye be Judged"</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I like :<P>Joh:8:7: So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.<P>I also like the Bill of Rights.<P>The board has changed. Everyone used to be in the same group. We were split up. Those lines have helped some and hurt others. I'm of the opinion, say what you want, I may not like it, but you can say it. As long as we are being constructive I don't see the problem in Nellie voicing her opinion, and of course no problem with Princess either. That said...

Wow guys take a chill pill. Yes I agree that sometimes Ws comments may push us BS buttons but as I have said before we are all here for support and to learn from eachother. <P>Don't take your anger out on eachother ok?<P>JIll

I think it's really all about our wording that makes conversation flow easier.<P>Using "I think," "I believe," "in my opinion" goes a long way toward translating viewpoints in a non-defensive way, yes? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<P>Laura

Lucks, you are absolutely right. In my opinion. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]<P>I try to voice my thoughts in a way that does not attack the person/people I disagree with. I tried to word my initial response in a way that was informational and not confrontational. But, I was on the defensive, so ... I could have chosen better words, I'm sure.<P>I don't know why I may have come off as being unremorseful for the EA. I have a lot of regret for the pain I caused. Maybe because I am glad that the circumstances around it helped me to get out of an abusive marriage. That does not justify it. I don't believe I've ever told someone to have an EA, that there is nothing wrong with it, that it's a good thing, etc. It was devastating to my XH when he found out, and hurt me and the OM/friend when I ended it.<P>"Unremorseful betrayer" is a matter of opinion, not a definition. Having an EA was a mistake. Leaving an unremorseful abuser was not. I am much happier now and in my opinion that isn't gloating. But it's only my opinion.<p>[ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: Princess Buttercup ]

<B>What reason did you come to this particular forum?</B><P>Well...for me, I KNEW this was a marriage *building* forum. I wanted to know what I did WRONG in my marriage. I was divorced when I got here, but I still hurt... man I still do hurt because I wanted my marriage to work out. I never entered it lightly and I didn't leave it lightly either.<P>I knew my husband was abusive, but I honestly thought if I loved him long enough....if I loved him hard enough...if I cleaned the house good enough....if I made his favourite meals....if I did everything he wanted me to do....If....If....If.<P>Marriage builders gave me the validation that marriage is NOT all the IF's. This forum, "Divorcing/Divorced" was where I came to find a little peace through my divorce. I was sad to find people judging other people for their divorces. I was disappointed because the forum itself is labelled "Divorcing/Divorced". My marriage was done...I wasn't looking at restoring something that was over. I guess I was hurt because I WAS divorced (I didn't want to be...but I didn't want to be abused either). I wanted to learn how to forgive and get on with my life...and deal with the hurts that still take place with this man. That's why I chose this one instead of the other forums.<P>I do want to thank all of you though for showing me so much. For showing me incredible strength when I read all your stories of overcoming abuse. For all the times you talked about how hard you tried, but then showed me that it wasn't ONE person responsible for a marriage. For those of you onto newer relationships that are showing you what *healthy* really is..and that it is possible to be happy after divorce..and be OK with new relationships...and yes, even those of you who are judgemental. From you I have learned forgiveness and how to forgive my ex-husband for all the bad things he did. <P>Most of all...I learned that God only helps those who help themselves. Even though the door on my marriage closed, there have been so many windows that He left open for me. He's shown me that I have to be the one ok with all this. I have to be the one that loves myself enough to say goodbye and SURVIVE.<P>Anna2000 -- thanks for so much! You are so very right when you said in one of your posts that people who lash out are in their own hurt. It's knowing that that has taught me *tolerance* and has taught me to hold my own tongue (or fingers!) at times. You said "We all, no matter what our situation, deserve to find happiness, and better ourselves." -- for a very long time I felt I didn't deserve ANYTHING but bitterness and pain because I was divorced. You also said,"I file away the things I read here that don't make me a better person and concentrate on the majority of things I read here that do make me better." I'm learning to concentrate on the latter! I was married to a judgemental person...one who expressed him opinion and imposed his ideas on everyone even if they were wrong. If anything this forum is giving me permission to step away from the toxicity and work on the promise of better tomorrows!<P>Thanks for the thread folks....it's taught me wayyyyyy more than you could possibly imagine!

Princess Buttercup,<P>You are one classy lady. Just in your latest post you can tell MB is helping you. You handled your post with grace and tact.<P>Hey just a point of view here but as a physically abused spouse who was also cheated on the first year of our marriage, I felt more betrayed by his physical abuse. Both were huge forms of betrayals but it was the physical abuse that ruined our marriage. It was the physical abuse that left a psychological trauma that I struggle with every day.<P>How much more betrayed can a person feel when your husband, the man who is suppose to protect you, turns on you and beats you up? Who is suppose to protect you then? Who afterwards could I turn to? The one person in my life I loved the most had betrayed me so deeply, I couldn't even turn to him for the pain and hurt I was going through because he's the one who did it to me.I couldn't say to him there's this person who attacked me, hold me in your arms and make me feel better. The loneliness and the betrayal of trust is so deep. Being physically abused is just as much a form of betrayal as being cheated on. He was physically abusive when we were first married. I thought we were getting passed all that. My trust I had in him is now gone forever. The worse thing is he says he can never say to me he won't do it again because he just doesn't know if he can control his anger. He also says if I push his buttons he will do it again. Well, maybe that's not the worse thing, at least he's being honest with me.<P>Take care girl! You seem to really be doing good.<P>ANNA<P>Elan,<P>Thanks so much for your kind words to me. I am still growing on MB and still learning. I make mistakes in some post but hopefully I learn from these, just like in every day life. <P>Some of the persons who are moving on are asking Dr. Harley to make a forum called "moving on". I think it'll really help. I have some friends in here who aren't yet ready to give up their marriage, but they would like to be a part of it too, just to get some advice on how to be happy while their spouses are off playing. I hope Dr. Harley will consider this. Maybe it'll help those people who have hurt feelings from some of these post.<P>Also, I feel a little like a coward right now. Just to let you know and everyone know, for safety reasons with stbx, I feel I can't go into too many details right now, but I had to edit most of my threads that had too many details. I just hope I got them all. I mainly left alone the generic and non detailed posts and threads. Most of my personal threads no longer make sense. I also took my location off. Anyway, I guess I'm a coward about this, but I have to put safety first. I want to minimize any threats I feel, but I also want to continue the support and learning from MB.<P>Well thanks again. It sounds like you are really getting it together too.<P>Take care,<P>ANNA<p>[ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]