Well,<p>Here it is Christmas night. There have been some rather dramatic events which have occured, that I felt I should share with you . . . and since I know that my W reads on these forumns, maybe to explain things a little.<p>I decided to follow some of the advice that I have been given on this forumn. . .I picked up my D at 6:30 last night (Christmas Eve). We drove back home and met with my parents and one of my sisters, and we went to look at Christmas lights. I think I may have mentioned before, that this is something that has been kind of a family tradition. In fact, the only times that I can remember not going out to see Christmas lights on Christmas Eve, has been on those years when we were at my ILs for Christmas.<p>After looking at lights, we all went out to a restaurant and ate, then came home and got ready for Santa to visit. . .including putting out milk and cookies, of course.<p>When I woke up this morning my D was not in her bed. She had gotten up during the night and gotten into bed with me. Anyway, when my D woke up this morning, we opened presents and took baths, etc in order to get ready to go over to my sisters house for the family Christmas. My D got to play with her cousins . . .which is something she has not been able to do in over 5 weeks. . . and bear in mind that my sister and her kids live about 20 yards from my apartment. My daughter has almost litterally grown up being able to see and play with her cousins almost daily. . . They had a blast together. . .<p>So, anyway, my W expected me to take my D back to her this afternoon, and after thinking things through, and seeing my D playing with her cousins, I decided that being in her own home, in her own room was in her best interests. . . I decided that I was not going to take my D back to my W.<p>Well, we had finished up dinner, my D was in her bedroom playing with her cousins, when my W called, and wanted to talk to my D. After a minute or two, my D gave the phone to me. . . I told my W that I felt that my D needed to be with me right now, to which my W responded with a very "colorful" tirade, before saying that she would be at her mothers house and hanging up. When my W asked if she was "ever" going to be able to see my D again, or when my MIL was going to be able to give my D her Christmas presents, I told her that I didn't know, that it was something that we would have to talk about.<p>Well, the kids continued palying in my D's room, and the adults decided to play a game of UNO. . . While we were playing, there was a knock at the front door. . . guess what . . .It was the police. . . . <p>I did my best to try and explain the situation to them. . . They informed me that my W had told them that she had already filed for divorce, even though I have not been served with any type of legal papers to that effect. I had the police offices talk with my D as well. She was pretty scared, and when she wasn't trying to fight off tears, she was holding on to me pretty tightly.<p>I told the police officers that if my W was willing to sit down and try to work things out concerning my D, then I was more than willing to sit down with her, and them if necessary, but that if she was going to maintain the level of concern and cooperation concerning my D's welfare, that she has shown thus far, then I wasn't interested.<p>Well, the police officers went down to where my W was, at the end of the next apartment building, and talked to her. . . One of the officers came back a few minutes later and asked if I would be willing to meet with my W at the police station tomorrow night, with them acting as intermediaries if necessary. They also asked if I would allow my W to talk with my D.<p>. . . .Of course I agreed.<p>As I explained to the police officers, or tried to anyway, my number one priority through all of this has been my D, and her best interests. I also tried to explain to them, what I had hoped people on these forumns would be able to understand. . . That I have intentionally NOT made attempts to bad mouth or attack my W. Not on these forumns, nor to my D. I have tried very hard to be as civil and peaceful as possible. That it was only as a result of my W's unwillingness to make any attempts at working toward my D's best interests, that I finally decided that I need to act in her best interests on my own.<p>I tried to talk to my D a little bit tonight after everything was all over, but she seems to be very confused. My D is only 8 years old and has been forcibly stuck in the middle of all this. She told a friend of hers today on the phone, that she wanted to stay here, but that she could not tell her mother that.<p>When I asked my D about whether or not she had wanted to leave when my W took her away on the day after Thanksgiving, she told me that she tried to tell her mom that she didn't want to go, but that her mom wouldn't listen to her.<p>It breaks my heart to see my D have to endure this. . .I have tried to let her know how much I love her. I have tried to talk to her about, for lack of a better description, the golden rule, but I am honestly not sure how much she really understands.<p>She is sleeping right now. . . in her own room, and in her own bed . . .I pray that she will have a peaceful night, because I am sure that I will be having a very restless one. . . .<p>I welcome your comments. . .

This is not good. The one-sided action by either parent is not not good. You had no right to seperate your daughter from her mother without her consent (I assume from your post there was some agreement in place over how this holiday was to be handled). You did a very bad thing. Now that is not to say your w isn't acting poorly either, and may have done the same earlier (not famililar with your story)....but this kind of behaviour, I have possession, so will make the decision is crap, you have no such right. Nor do I think you were solely motivated by daughters welfare, but your own desires as well. YOU are not the arbiter of your daughters well-being, BOTH of you are, you cannot just decide your w is wrong....no matter now noble you care to make it. Your daughter was confused, and scared, and had to experience the police cause of YOUR actions too, you deprived her of her mother as well. What is the matter with you anyways? That was an incredibly hostile, aggressive act against your w. She has every right to be outraged, angry, and take action, you stole her daughter.<p>Having said all that, let me add you are headed for disaster, you have just introduced the notion to your wife that you intend to control her throigh your children.... she may have done the same to you previously, but your response if she did was the WRONG response. This is why parents streal their children and dissappear, cause they will not trust each other and cooperate. Unless you fear your daughter is in immediate actual danger, not just the emotional distress normal when parents do not get along, then I suggest you immediately apologize to your wife, reunite her with her daughter, and honor whatever agreement you have made. THEN both of you (hopefully, or if not then you alone) need to seek immediately a custody hearing and put a legal framework under how you share custody. You made a very unwise decision her empty, one that can lead to very bad outcomes. It might be distressing that your D Christmas was not as you would want it, or as it has been, but whether she plays with her cousins, or has the Christmas you want is irrelevant, you cannot make such decisions alone, and cannot have your way just cause you think you are acting in your daughters best interest, that is rationalizing to the extreme. Good luck, this is very hard I know, but making it worse is not going to help you or your D, do not make her a pawn in this.

Hi ES,<p>It's been a long time since we've spoken.<p>I'm so sorry about all this. What a dreadful ending to Christmas.<p>It's not fair what we do to our children is it??<p>As far as your plight goes, all I can say is keep putting your D first. Someone has to, and if it's not going to be your W, then it HAS to be you.<p>Will you go for permanent custody? We have a very different system over here. First the divorce is granted, then the property settlement is worked out, and lastly child custody is done. Should be last first I think.<p>I must admit I have been away from here for some time, although I do check in every couple of weeks - so I don't know your full story I'm sorry. I don't know what your W has done or said. You don't have to reiterate it but if I ask questions you have already answered I'm sorry.<p>One thought has just hit me. The fact that the police came to your house could be seen to be positive. They saw you as a concerned father, who is not stopping his W from seeing or talking to her D, but wants to modify contact for the sake of the child. The fact that you are willing to compromise, and undergo mediation with them, also has to show you as being positive and cooperative. Surely. This may very well go in your favour. You came across in your post and loving concerned parent. And that's the way it should be.<p>These WS's I think sometimes completely forget how to put someone other than themselves first. They can do it to us, but not to the children.<p>I'm sorry I don't have more constructive advice. Not really having been in that situation I don't quite know what to say.<p>I just wanted you to know that I'm thinking of you, and I'll be here at work for a little while yet.<p>take care I hope it all works out for the best for you<p>hugs<p>Jo

sad_n_lonely -- I actuallly expected this type of response, so no, I am no tgoing to be baited into a fight here.<p>My D and her best interests are in fact my primary concern. . .they always have been. And I do plan on, among other things, arranging counseling for my D to be able to understand and cope with this as soon as I get up in the morning. . . and this is something that I mentioned to the police when they were over here earlier tonight.<p>My D and any other child, for that matter, who is forced to endure this type of garbage deserves the same things. . .They should have the situation explained ot them on a level that they can understand. They should be free to love both of their parents, without one or the other making attempts to not only alienate the other parent, but to belittle and attack that other parents as well. They should be given whatever opportunities are necessary, to be able to understnad and cope with the situation they find themselves in.<p>My D has been blatantly denied these things, even though I have asked my W to either provide them, or to allow me to provide them. She will not be denied them any longer. That is in her best interests. Had my W been willing to try and work on some type of arrangements on my D's behalf prior to this, then these steps would not have been necessary. I wish that they were not necessary, but unfortunately they are. . .

bonnet -- we were evidently posting at the same time. . . <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Will you go for permanent custody?<hr></blockquote> You know, I had tried talking with my W about joint custody, with my D living here. My job provides for the opportunities to get the counseling, that my D will need, and as I mentioned a minute or two ago in my previous reply, I have asked my Wife to either provide these things or to allow me to provide them . . . She has refused, saying that it is perfectly acceptable for me to have to drive 65 miles to see my D, for me to have to make long distance phone calls to be able to talk to her . . . for me to have as my only meaningful contact with my D, the use of Email. . . My W does not even own a computer, and by her own admission only grants my D access to a computer every "couple of days".<p>All of this for an 8 year old girl who was taken from her home, had most of her belongings left behind, and not allowed to be able to see and be with her father when she wants. . .and this is leaving alone the fact that she was also taken from the life she has grown up with. . .It may not have been the best in the world, but it has been her world. . .<p>My marriage is over. . . so be it. . . but I don't believe that my D should have to pay such an awfully high price as a result . . .especially not when there are alternatives available to help lessen the cost she has to pay. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>take care I hope it all works out for the best for you<hr></blockquote>I'm not really worried about the best for me . . .I am worried about the best for my D.

rationalze all you want, but when your w dissappears with your d, you may regret your choice (hopefully that won't happen), but either way I don't beleive you at all, parents regularly do what they want and claim it is ALL about the kids, your aggressive tone and aggressive actions belie your concern. You have apparently written the marriage off unless your w dances to your tune, so why did you not seek legal redress first before taking matters into your own hands? You have probably just started a war, I fail to see how that helps your marriage or your daughter. In any event, I am glad you decided not to be "baited" cause I do not argue with those who view well-meaning advice as bait.....you are a very angry man, you might want to consider how that impacts your ability to think clearly.<p>btw empty, I am a father too, and am emotionally on your side, and have been there (well almost), I know the fear (and anger) you are facing....but going to war with your w is not the answer, you can only use the legal system, or steal her yourself. Your w has custody not you, you cannot just take possession of a child. What happens when she goes back to mom, or is that what this is really all about, you are not going to return her? Sooner or later she will have her again, and what then? You are trying to control this and using your d welfare as your rationale...you had other choices, you picked the most aggressive and hurtful one....you did that for a reason, whether you realize it or not, it had to be in part cause you wanted to do this, and are happier now.<p>[ December 26, 2001: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

sad_n_lonely -- <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>but when your w dissappears with your d,<hr></blockquote>Actually, that is exactly what my W has done three times now. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>so why did you not seek legal redress first before taking matters into your own hands?<hr></blockquote>I did this too. Without a minimum of $2000 cash up front, there is not a single lawyer in the area I live in, who deals with divorce or custody, who will work with me. I wish that I had that kind of money just lying around. . . or that I had some type of collateral to be able to aquire a loan for it. . .unfortunately I don't. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Your w has custody not you,<hr></blockquote>No, she doesn't. As I stated earlier, she took my D and disappeared. there has been no custody agreement outside my W simply taking her. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>you had other choices<hr></blockquote>Actualy I didn't. I had talked with all the legal resources which were available to me, without a minimum of $2000 to get anything really done, and had really only two choices. . .I chose the one which would give my D the professional help that she needs through all of this.<p>I am angry that everything has gotten to this point. And that includes with myself for not being able to find a way to get my W to work together for the benefit of our D. I know the fear and frustration of not being able to see my D. Of listening to her cry because she is not allowed to see me.<p>You don't believe me. . .That's OK, because the only one who has to believe is my D. She knows that I love her with all of my being. It is her interests which are being placed first in all of this. . .not my own.

ES,<p>THIS IS EXACTLY WHY YOUR WIFE DIDN'T WANT TO GIVE YOU YOUR DAUGHTER UNTIL THE SEPARATION PAPERS!!!<p>Then your wife decided to trust you and do it! If you give back your daughter then maybe just maybe she'll trust you again, but if you don't and she has to go through legal ways to get her back, then you can guarantee you will NEVER NEVER have her trust again. You need to have the trust of another parent when there's children involed.<p>You ruined your daughters Christmas!<p>Why couldn't you wait to do this the legal way?????<p>My gut feeling as I wrote to you in prior posts, told me this would happen. I am pissed at my self for not posting what my gut feeling told me you would do! I almost posted to you saying if I were your wife I wouldn't leave her alone with you until legal issues were cleared up. I didn't because I was concerned your wife would read this forum and I thought if I were wrong then I may cause you not to see your daughter. I wish now that I could have warned her. Not because of your wife but because of what you were going to do to your daughter!<p>You not only broke your wife's trust, you also broke your daughter's trust. Your wife trusted you. Your wife handed over her daughter to you with a guarantee from you she'd have her back. Then you broke your daughters trust because she looks up to her parents to be the honest ones in her life!<p>You knew all along what you were going to do. You can't tell me you decided this on the spur of the moment. I DON'T buy it and I WON'T buy it ever!<p>I know what your wife will do now. She's going to get an attorney, she's going to take your butt to court, she'll have custody back in no time and then you are going to be the one to suffer for this choice because the trust your wife just gave you will be gone forever. (AND if your wife is listening, my advice to her is search the internet and the phone books for organizations who will help you get this cleared up!)<p>You messed up. I am mainly furious over the psychological impact this has on your daughter. You are not thinking of your daughter. You are not thinking that she doesn't need to be confused like this. You didn't just ruin her Christmas, GEEZ, you may have caused psychological damage. I'm sure your wife told your daughter she'd pick her back up and see her again. The cops came and had to talk with her. OF course your daughter's confused, this is all like lying to your daugher, she thinks she may never see her mother again now! She thinks you broke the promise to her as well. You just lost your daughters trust. You screwed up royally! You are only thinking of you and what you needed! You put a little child in the middle. <p>You just broke your daughters trust!<p>Your impatience and thinking of yourself just cost you alot more than you even know right now! That sure wasn't taken any advice I was aware of on this forum. At least not majority advice.. We told you to save money. Do this the legal way. You couldn't wait. <p>Okay. I am so incredibly mad, I am just going to go calm down now. Perhaps I'll reedit this later. <p>FIX THIS!<p>ANNA

I still don't understand why you didn't stick to the agreement that you had with your wife regarding Christmas Day. SNL is right about several things, including that YOUR actions caused the police to get involved.
From your post, it seems as if you and your D were having a good time and so you just decided to not let her go to her mother's. You didn't pick up the phone and discuss this with your wife, you just made this decision. If you two had previously agreed to a particular schedule for Christmas and then you changed your mind with no discussion I can understand her feelings.
Sending the police to your house was stupid and immature, not to mention entirely unneccesary and incredibly frightening for your D. But, had you called her or, better yet, stuck to your agreement - it wouldn't have happened.
Do you see your role in this nightmare?

Hi Empty Shell,<p>I'm sorry if I don't know your entire story. Someone else on here told me your W is a WS. Your story sounded similar to mine so I've decided to post.<p>If I'm wrong, just correct me about your situation.<p>My XW was the WS. I was so incredibly angry with her and I did not want the OM around my daughter. I told my XW "You will never see her (our daughter) again". Made things worse.<p>Well, time goes by and emotions subside. Today we have joint custody of our daughter with me as the primary. Therefore, technically, my daughter lives with me. She's 5.<p>I know that you are incredibly scared of your wife moving off to be with the OM and you not being able to see your daughter. (My mom did this exact same thing to my dad. Mom married the OM who became my step-dad. I don't know my dad very well as a result. She moved us 400 miles from our dad.) This fear is causing you to be extremely angry and is clouding your judgement. A custody judgement is already against your favor because you are a man, but IMHO you're making matters worse. How do you get custody? Be stubborn yes, but just be a great dad.<p>At least in Texas, a child can make a request to live with a parent at the age of 12. That's four short years away if your state is similar. Just be a great dad and you're daughter can ask the court to live with you.<p>We've worked out a 50/50 visitation arrangement and my XW recently moved 25 miles away. Things are actually going okay.<p>A child, especially a young one, needs both parents to grow up healthy.<p>It was only when I asked for peace did things get better with my XW.<p>IMHO, as long as you exert your will on the visitation of your child, your W will too.<p>You have to give to get. Having said that, you need an attorney to look out for your best interest though. A custody battle will only hurt your child.<p>If you deny visitation to the other parent, I can see supervised visitation on the horizon. That gets to be very expensive and awkward.<p>You just blew this opportunity at peace. Again, this is not a statement of your character. I know how angry you are, but keeping your daughter because it's what YOU decided only hurt your cause.<p>Yes, your marriage may be over, but you must work on a business arrangement with your W which will foster the best interest of your daughter.<p>The most recent agreement had your daughter going back to her mother. YOU broke that agreement. Right or wrong. You've complained that your W kept your daughter from you. Do you think this helped matters? I think she'll do it again in retaliation.<p>Stop fighting.<p>Stop fighting.<p>Stop fighting.<p>I know you are hurt, but at this point, only your daughter is getting hurt. Be the better man.<p>Control your anger. Patience is the tool that you need to solve this problem and you don't have it right now.<p>Emotions are way too high right now. Both of you need to settle down. Neither of you can think straight. Both of you will have to think straight to do what is best for your daughter. All you did with this most recent action was add fuel to the fire.<p>I know it sounds wierd, but sometimes you have to let them go to get them back. More like "hang on loosely, but don't let go". "If you cling to tightly, you're gonna lose control." (every heard those lyrics?)<p>Step back and look at your life as an observer and I think you'll find the inner peace to start making better decisions.<p>Hang in there,<p>Kevin

first off empty want to emphasize I am not defending your wife, I am trying to make you see it makes no difference what your wife does, short of putting your daughter in actual physical danger, you are not empowered legally, morally, or ethically to do what you did. Like it or not we as culture default to moms as custodial parent, especially of small children, you have to adhere to that or face really bad sanctions. YOU CANNOT take your daughter, especially a daughter, from her mothwr, YOU JUST CANNOT DO THAT...period. I think you are well aware of this, and it is why I said I don't believe you, you did what you wanted to do for you, not your daughter. <p>It makes no difference if you literally were denied ever seeing your daughter again, it is the risk you take when you make a woman pregnant, they are going to be the custodial parent, and you are going to have to live with that reality, and hope the woman acts in the childs best interest (they usually do if you don't alienate em, and do not try to control them), and if they don't, you are at the mercy of the legal system. The way it stands now your wife is the custodial parent, d lives with her, she was visiting you for Christmas, you violated your agreement with her, and the judge is gonna clean your clock, jump on you with both feet, as well he should for making her a pawn in your disagreements with wife.<p>empty...Actually, that is exactly what my W has done three times now. (disappear with d)<p>snl..I understand that empty, and it sucks big time, but it makes no difference, she is the default parent, children go with moms end of story. You do not have that option.<p>so why did you not seek legal redress first before taking matters into your own hands?<p>empty..I did this too. Without a minimum of $2000 cash up front, there is not a single lawyer in the area I live in, who deals with divorce or custody, who will work with me. I wish that I had that kind of money just lying around. . . or that I had some type of collateral to be able to aquire a loan for it. . .unfortunately I don't.<p>snl...Again this sucks big time, but you cannot take the law into your own hands just cause you are broke, IT DON'T WORK THAT WAY. Did you try to get mediation or arbitration most family courts offer this. <p>Your w has custody not you,<p>empty...No, she doesn't. As I stated earlier, she took my D and disappeared. there has been no custody agreement outside my W simply taking her.<p>snl..Yes she does, as you are about to find out when the sheriff comes to your door to return d to her mother, hopefully you do not get arrested as well. <p>you had other choices<p>empty...Actualy I didn't. I had talked with all the legal resources which were available to me, without a minimum of $2000 to get anything really done, and had really only two choices. . .I chose the one which would give my D the professional help that she needs through all of this.<p>snl...There are always other choices, and the best one was to cooperate with your wife, you have just thrown that one away. If you have any sense at all, right now you should call your wife, apologize profusely for the agony you have just caused her, and the tremendous betrayal of trust, tell her you went temporarily crazy and really do want what is best for d, and will try to work with her on this. My sense (and I could be wrong) is you have not let enough time go by to mitigate the conflict between you and w. She may be the worst person in the world, I don't know, maybe you are event the better parent, but even the worst fighting parents seem to be able to work out stuff in kids best interst...so why aren't you? There seems to be something missing here, and it feels like anger and control on your part frankly....and your selfish actions would seem to support that. If you are truly interested in your D, and have no negative feelings about your w, you would not be acting like this. Your words reek of anger and control...not caring and concern for d, much less w.<p>empty...I am angry that everything has gotten to this point. And that includes with myself for not being able to find a way to get my W to work together for the benefit of our D. <p>snl...*sigh* empty, I know you are frustrated, angry, hurt, and with good cause...but you have got to let go, you cannot find a way to make your wife cooperate, all you can do is plan a, and control your behaviour. Your life is not going to be what you wanted, not for you, not for daughter, and you are going to have to find a way to live with that, or bad things are going to happen.<p>empty...I know the fear and frustration of not being able to see my D. Of listening to her cry because she is not allowed to see me.<p>snl...Hopefully it is only temporary, you have to have patience and show your willingness to let others (your w, legal system, whatever) control some of your choices, it is the only path. Plus as your d grows she will have more say about access, and with any real effort and interest on your part the courts will grant you fairly extensive visitation. Plus things change, at some point the family dynamic may be that your d comes to live with you, but whatever is possible, what you are doing is making it less likely.<p>empty...You don't believe me. . .That's OK, because the only one who has to believe is my D. She knows that I love her with all of my being. It is her interests which are being placed first in all of this. . .not my own.<p>snl..True, makes no difference what anyone else thinks, the point was to suggest you are kidding yourself, and you are.... the advice given here, on the other hand, is to help you realize your goal, the well-being of your child, not to chastise you. No one doubts you love her, that does not mean you are perfect and will only act in her best interest, but you got to understand empty you are biased, and will convince yourself you are doing the best. But when most if not everyone tells you (and we all have kids too) this is not the way to go about it, you really should pay attention. Lastly you are not a child psychologist, you have no idea what your d needs, but so far your only reasoning is she needs to be with you...that doesn't fly, cause to do it you are doing exactly what you complained about, you are depriving her of the other parent..... sorry, you know as well as I, 2 wrongs do not make a right. Good luck, and I hope the best for all of you.

Assuming you are in the U.S., you're right that $2,000 is about the minimum retainer an attorney would take to start your case. That only makes sense with fees ranging from a low of $200 to $500 and up an hour.<p>However, there are both free and low cost legal services available in every state, and I strongly recommend that you seek same immediately. If you are in a larger city, look under 'legal services' in your yellow pages. You could also call your State Bar Association for a list of such services. <p>Start immediately to talk to your W to reach agreement on a custody and visitation schedule. Joint custody with you as custodial parent would probably be your goal, but if she won't agree to that, don't push it right now. However, before reaching the courts you would save yourself time and effort by jointly agreeing on a visitation schedule for whichever parent would not be the custodial parent. <p>By doing so before custody is determined you would also be better ensuring the visitation schedule is fair. So get out a calendar and start dividing up the holidays, vacation, etc.; both of you sign the agreement and then you can give it to any attorney to which you have been assigned.<p>If you haven't done so already, start separating all of your personal property. Your W should have 1/2 of D's property so D feels at home with her, too. Let your D decide which toys, photos, etc. stay at each of her homes.<p>While your W doesn't seem to deserve much praise herself, you have put yourself in a bad situation by adding fuel to an already volatile situation. File for divorce and get a custody order in place before the situation spirals out of control.<p>A suggestion for you: Try to drop all expectations you have of your W, except that she will treat your D well. View your W as your D's friend - maybe a friend your D doesn't adore, or perhaps a friend your D doesn't want to be with as much as she wants to be with you, but still, a relationship your D NEEDS, whether she realizes it or not. Thus, it is your goal to encourage and maintain that friendship for your D regardless of your feelings, AND regardless of hers.<p>You will be dealing with your W regarding your D well into your D's 20's, so it is of utmost concern that you both learn to deal with each other constructively regarding your D. I feel your recent actions were shortsighted in that regard because you were the one who acted unreasonably under the circumstances, who broke an agreement with your wife, who caused the police to be called, and who created stress for your D. <p>You were not protecting your child and ruined her holiday. Try to think of long term goals instead of allowing yourself to act on such impulses.<p>Your behavior may be understandable under the circumstances, but that doesn't mean that it was acceptable. Although I can imagine how difficult it is and will be, let your choices and actions be determined by how you would want your W to treat you if your roles and situations were reversed (do unto others...). Simple fairness, ES. If you can do so, you will make yourself a wonderful role model for your D by showing your maturity under trying circumstances.<p>Try to remember that what is in the best interest of your D is properly what is jointly decided between you and your W, not by you alone.<p>***When I asked my D about whether or not she had wanted to leave when my W took her away on the day after Thanksgiving, she told me that she tried to tell her mom that she didn't want to go, but that her mom wouldn't listen to her.***<p>-Stop putting your D in the middle of decisions to be made by you and your W. What are you trying to do - encourage her to be unhappy with her mother? Stop making her try to 'choose' - it is unhealthy for her. Your D needs a healthy relationship with BOTH of you. That is true regardless of whether she feels more comfortable at the home she has always known with you or at her new second home with your W. <p>Take some responsibility for helping your W to create a room in her home where your D feels comfortable. Instead of asking your D whether she wants to stay or go, ask her what would make your W's home more comfortable for your D, and go from there.<p>Try to put yourself on your W's side to jointly approach the issue rather than seeing your W as an adversary. I know it seems like you've tried this, but try harder. There is nothing more you can do about your W's attempt to alienate you from your D or belittle you other than to continue to ask her to stop doing so and to lead your W by the example of fairness and maturity that YOU set.<p>***As I stated earlier, she took my D and disappeared.*** Geez - so how about getting a written agreement between the two of you at least before your D goes back to your W, and before same, let your W come over for supervised visits with you and a few others also present as witnesses in case things get out of hand? And in the meantime you can get with a lawyer to start the proceedings.<p>Good luck to you - please call for legal services at your first opportunity!<p>gobyfish

SnL,<p>You know having hired more than a few high priced lawyers in my life, and having about half a dozen lawyers in my family,I have never heard of the Constitutional amendment that gave Women the right to take a child away from her father.<p>In fact, I have never heard of the law that says that no matter what a woman does with a child, she is right and the father is wrong. Indeed, I have never heard of such junk in my life. The only person that has moved this child and not told the other spouse where to they were and forbid contact is his W.<p>Since you don't know Empty's situation and others such as Anna have not bothered to do their homework, I would like to suggest that your judgements are at best flawed with regards to this situation.<p>Empty, in my opinion, should have done many things and could have done many things better, but he didn't hide D, he didn't run with D, and he didn't refuse to talk with his W. The only person that has done that in this weird story is the W.<p>So when you all lay all of the blame on him, just where does your considered advice fall??? Of the table, because it shows you haven't been paying any attention to his situation.<p>He and his W have been posting here for a long time following her leaving him and taking the D before disclosure of her affairs. There were indeed more than one. <p>This is a very complicated story and it won't have a clean ending. More importantly there has been little evidence that the W has used the child as much more than a security blanket for herself. I know she loves the D, but she has used her shamelessly in the past.<p>Yes, I think Empty could have handled this better, but to see the anger and indignation heaped upon him, bothers me greatly. AT the minimum his W knows where the D is, can talk with her, and could have very likely come to Empty's apartment to talk with him rather than call the police. She apparently did not do the obvious things, she simply detonated the nuc. Nice real nice.<p>Stop the abuse of Empty and see if you can indeed come up with solutions that would help all of them.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

JL,<p>I have read some of your post months ago and respect your opinion highly. Doing my homework, I really don't understand that??? I went back to ES's threads a couple of times and found ES deleted most of his post, Also, what does that have to do with wife agreeing to let ES have daughter if he returned daughter and ES not returning daughter and breaking his promise? A promise should be a promise, no matter what the old issues were, this is a whole new issue. <p>I have a big problem with someone going back on their promise. No matter how he justifies breaking this promise, this affected his daughter in a negative way not positive. He needed patience to fight her legally, instead when the mother trusted him to turn her daughter over to him for Christmas, he kept her and went back on his word. This concerns me greatly. In the long run, it's going to shoot him in the foot too. It may even cause him supervised visitations when it all comes out to the judge...<p>Well, anyway, I hated seeing a little girl put in the middle. I will never understand why he couldn't have sought help through our legal system. He says she wasn't working with him on seeing the daughter and that's why he had to take her, yet, the mother let him see her on Thanksgiving and have her for Christmas....Sounds like she was starting to trust him and then he abused that trust. Any attorney would have advised her not to let the daughter out of her sight until papers are drawn up, but she trusted him. She won't ever do that again, I guarantee it, and again, I think his impatience may have cost him more than he knows.<p>Take care JL,<p>ANNA<p>Editing to add a P.S.<p>
JL, I get very concerned about doing my "homework". I can see people grow on MB every day. I grow on MB. What a person was yesterday may not be who they are today. I used to go back more often and read old post, but I started getting judgements of persons from some of their old post that concerned me. <p>Think of it this way, you seem to have a really bad view of ES's wife, hopefully through MB she learned some of the things she did, I'm sure you and others told her ways of correcting these. I saw others who have a bad view of ES also, perhaps he corrected a lot of those things too. Reading all those post (what was left of them) made me think I was judging them based on their actions of yesterday, instead of their actions today. As you seem to be judging ES's wife based on her old actions. I respect your opinion on your approach, I just have a different view on reading old post and doing research. <p>Also, sometimes you can read a title and know just from the approach whether a person is a "newby" it just shows through one sentence. As I mature on MB, I for one don't want people looking at my old post. I want them judging me for my actions today, not those of yesterday. I'll answer their questions, I'll correct any errors in judgement they made, and I'll let them know what information they want to know, but I'd just like them to take each problem as it comes. This is my approach, each have their own, I choose this one.<p>Just more thoughts....<p>[ December 26, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

Here is website that lists attorneys who do probono work in colo.
http://www.cobar.org/probono/index.htm#programs
[ December 26, 2001: Message edited by: KalGrl ]<p>Also over at divorcenet.com there are messageboards for each state where you can post your legal questions and get support and adivce.
It doesn't seem you can get a break here; you are being given advice by those who know nothing about your situation. FWIW I think you should go for sole physical custody. Given your wife's history, suicide attempt, etc you may stand a chance.<p>
[ December 26, 2001: Message edited by: KalGrl ]<p>[ December 26, 2001: Message edited by: KalGrl ]</p>

JL, I just deal in reality guy, not wishful thinking. I assume everyone knows the actual law, or can easily find out, but if one intends to buck reality, be a pioneer, fine, just make sure you have someone available to pull the arrows out of your back. I am a problem solver jl, the rules are often irrelevant, and despite that the law is supposedly blind, surely you are not suggesting custody is a level playing feild re fathers? So if it is not, what does one do? One (if one is a father) makes sure they keep their nose very clean..... correct? I hope things work out for empty...and his w and d, but I do not have to know a thing about him to make the observations I did, or the advice I gave. It was generic and it applies every time, further the unilateral action he took was a threat to his wife, and was wrong.... right? My point was to disabuse him of the notion he was fighting on a level playing feild, do you think it is level? All things being equal, the female will get custody everytime, ask all your attorney friends/relatives if that is not true? If the males do not keep that in mind they are seriously outgunned.

I have sat here and read all your posts. Of course this is just my opinion but I remember posting to ES before and after he edited and even reading his W's posts. <p>POV here is that while ES did not make his intentions to his W clear, neither did she. I mean really showing up with the police? Come on. What was she trying to prove? Kinda like when my H called the police to turn me in.... got him arrested. You know the police saw more than is said here. They saw that the daughter was not being held against her will. They saw a woman calling the police and spending good tax dollars on an uncessary call. This woman is making a repuation for herself in the law enforcement community. Why? For the sake of her daughter? No, to show force to her family? Well if that is what her family requires, all the money in the world won't help that. Seems more like she was out to make her H look bad. <p>Well he hurt but really even to us? She is the one who looks bad. Not a smart move there W. If you want to do what is right for your daughter then make peace with your H. Make him your XH if you must but make peace with him. He was nothing to lose if you make peace with him and neither does your daughter or yourself. However, all stand to lose if you keep you this act. <p>Stand back and look at the situation again. If you are adult enough, apologize you will find that your H will be willing to work with you. <p>I am a W and a BS, I would be willing to work with my H if he showed responsibility. But when he thought he could call the police on me for something stupid he did, the police saw it right away and arrested him! I am sure your daughter and H don't want that to happen to you nor would your family. Please make amends now. <p>I understand most of what I have said is quite strong. I have no benefit to gain from seeing you hurt more. But it would make my heart happy if you both could make amends so that this little girl can find some happiness. <p>Of course, my feelings are not important to either of you but your little child's should be. <p>Take care both of you,
L.

orchid...POV here is that while ES did not make his intentions to his W clear, neither did she. I mean really showing up with the police? Come on. What was she trying to prove? <p>snl...Prove? Come on orchid, she wasn't proving anything, the man kidnapped her d, what would you do? She hoped (I would guess) they would return her, and they should have.<p>orchid...They saw that the daughter was not being held against her will.<p>snl...The will of an 8 yo? I doubt it even came up, nor should it, she should not even be asked such questions.<p>orchid...They saw a woman calling the police and spending good tax dollars on an uncessary call.<p>snl...That is debateable, if we (each of us) cannot depend on the police to protect our children from being kidnapped, then what are the police for? This is not some debate over who gets the china, she gave him access to her D and he promised to return her...this is a child orchid, not some piece of furniture, how would you feel if you were seperated and your H refused to return your son after some visit?<p>orchid...This woman is making a repuation for herself in the law enforcement community. Why? For the sake of her daughter? No, to show force to her family? Well if that is what her family requires, all the money in the world won't help that. Seems more like she was out to make her H look bad.<p>snl...I don't get it orchid, she should just let her H take their d and do whatever he wants? You think it was ok for him to steal her? Regardless of the circumstances for these two, someone has to be the custodial parent, and it is her....you cannot function as parents if you treat a child as a possession, I really am surprised at you, you should know better. THey are in a bad way, but they were trying to negotiate, she did not have to let him have access to her at all (until a court decides something), but she trusted him, and her lied and did the most despicable thing a human being can do, he stole their child away from her. How do you think she feels? That is the only factor that counts right now. As for empty, he is a bit scarey, he had no justification for what he did, he just decided he would be the custodial parent, and acted aggressively, he is also portraying a lot of anger, I don't think this is about his D as much as it is about him. This is not how caring fathers behave. I have no doubt he loves his d, but he did not act in a very loving way.<p>I don't buy his financial complaints either. If this is truly as serious as he says, he would find the money and go to court, reveal his w for the unfit mother she is and easily get custody, end of story. Whether he had to beg, borrow from every friend and relative, sell every possession he has, take a second and third job, whatever, a couple thousand dollars is not much. He could also go to the law library and read everything on custody issues, and do a lot of the paperwork himself. He has done none of this, something stinks orchid.... I think he may very well be a controlling person, and is incensed his wife escaped him.

Flame thrower, Aim, FIRE - - - - > Just Kidding&#8230;&#8230;<p>As the father of a 9yo girl, as well as 6yo girl, as well as 12yo girl I&#8217;d like to offer a my couple pennies worth and a little insight into how I handled my situation. Let me preface my comments by saying I only know a little of your story and I&#8217;m choosing to stay rather neutral at this point and focus on the child.<p>First, I can relate to your feeling and even your action. That was something that I felt like doing many times. But the fact remains two wrongs don&#8217;t make a right. There is a correct way to go about these things and most of these systems are in place to provide stability for you child. OK so you believe that the girls best interests would be served by you and your wife believes that the girls best interests will be served by her. Not knowing either of you I can say without a doubt that her best interests weren&#8217;t taken care of by either of you on Christmas. As a matter of fact a lot of harm was inflicted by both sides.<p>So I say shame on both of you. As I remember your wife wasn&#8217;t allowing you access to your child, again shame on both of you. Right away you see your wife&#8217;s shame but you don&#8217;t see yours do you? Brother you have to get pro-active instead of re-active.<p>This innocent 8 year old angel only wants to please and give love to BOTH of her parents. She doesn&#8217;t want all her time with mom or dad. She wants, needs, and deserves both of you. What she does not deserve is to be put in the middle of you two&#8217;s chess game. At all costs neither of you should EVER put her in the position where she feels as if she has to choose one or the other. <p>My now x-wife told me on May 3rd she was moving out the next day and taking our girls with her. Now we had been kinda been planning this for May 30th, the end of the school year, we had also been planning one of those &#8220;friendly&#8221; divorces, but through her fog she chose a different path. On several occasions we had shared our &#8220;Joint Custody 50/50&#8221; agreement with the girls.<p>May 4th, I came up with $2,000. I begged and borrowed from friends, family, and co-workers. I filed on May 4th, only to find out that she had filed on May 3rd and was requesting full custody. Well I got pro-active. I read every law in the state of Kansas regarding custody even appeals court and supreme court decisions. I researched every Judge that I had to face. I forced everything through court at a quick pace to get matters decided. But the most important thing was I kept communicating with my wife about custody issues. On May 10th before our temporary orders hearing &#8220;WE&#8221; agreed on an arrangement that worked for both of us. Now was that the arrangement either of us preferred, NO, but it was a compromised agreement that truly was best for the kids. Remember these are only &#8220;Temporary Orders&#8221;, I am presuming that your state works similar to mine.<p>So mediation passes and we can&#8217;t agree on a final arrangement, our divorce becomes final in July still with no final custody agreement. Our last court date was set for 9-11-01, I will always remember where I was. Both of us filed for &#8220;Primary Custodian&#8221; and truth be told I had a way better case than she did. Right before court we went into negotiation mode and at the ninth hour we agreed on what was best for our girls.<p>We have Joint Legal and Joint Physical custody with no Primary Custodian. Would we have gotten that in court, HECK NO&#8230; Would anything else be an injustice to our girls, HECK YES&#8230; <p>My opinion is that you both need to put your feelings towards each other aside and do what&#8217;s best for this little girl, which is obviously not being done right now. No judge in his right mind will grant or allow &#8220;Joint Custody&#8221; when the parents can&#8217;t and won&#8217;t parent together. Unfortunately for you, most legal systems in the U.S. are bias towards the mother, which merely means that you are the one who should be more motivated to work together. The absolutely best scenario here is that you BOTH realize that this crap needs to stop and agree to allow each other to be a parent to this child.<p>To you I say if you want to do what&#8217;s best for your child then it&#8217;s time to get pro-active. GET THE MONEY, no excuses. Research your state laws, decisions, and local court systems. Try to establish communication with your wife about the child ONLY. If you can&#8217;t then KEEP TRYING. If you still can&#8217;t then you haven&#8217;t tried hard enough or your talking about the wrong things.<p>To both of you, I beg you to honestly put this child&#8217;s fundamental needs above your silly selfish desires. She needs her mommy and daddy.<p>In closing I leave you with a quote from the &#8220;Children&#8217;s Rights Council&#8221; web-site (www.gocrc.com), from Judge Dorothy T. Beasley, Georgia Court of Appeals, July 2, 1993.<p>
"Although the dispute is symbolized by a 'versus' which signifies two adverse parties at opposite poles of a line, there is in fact a third party whose interests and rights make of the line a triangle. That person, the child who is not an official party to the lawsuit but whose well-being is in the eye of the controversy, has a right to shared parenting when both are equally suited to provide it. Inherent in the express public policy is a recognition of the child's right to equal access and opportunity with both parents, the right to be guided and nurtured by both parents, the right to have major decisions made by the application of both parents' wisdom, judgment and experience. The child does not forfeit these rights when the parents divorce." <p>Hugs, Thoughts, & Prayers

POJA. <p>BOTH of you refused to do it to help your marriage.<p>BOTH of you refused to POJA to try and save your marriage.<p>BOTH of you are refusing to do it in a divorce.<p>BOTH of you are refusing to do it to help your daughter.<p>ALL of you lose, and unfortunately, your daughter is going to have to pay the highest price for BOTH of your refusals to POJA.<p>How much easier it would have been to learn this while you were trying to recover from the affair, or before there was a divorce pending, or before temporary custodial arrangements, or before temporary visitation arrangements, or now - nasty divorce - nasty custody case.<p>SHAME ON YOU BOTH.<p>It is NEVER too late to sit down and try and hear one another - to try and learn POJA now.<p>Who knows? It sure won't hurt at this point.<p>ES - you have been VERY reasonable in the past, I know you are angry, and I hope you can get back to who you always were, very soon.<p>TNT