Yes, you have read it right. SNL today said yes, that he wants to separate. You know what hurts, is that all the stuff he says on the boards all this time he was SINCERE. He lied to me and said it was just questions to get answers. I have reread his posts starting back from July, and he hasn't changed. I feel like a doormat SNL - because you have treated me like a doormat, and didn't want me in your marriage from day one, so you treated me like a sister. All you wanted to do is use me to get things organized here, and make it easier to separate. Do you have sex with your sister? Why were you not honest with me and the Harleys? All along you told the Harleys and me that you had to find the answers in your own way, you knew the answer, but were afraid to be the bad guy. Like the one post stated, you are a coward and want me to do the bad business. I had to ask SNL to give me a straight answer today, he went into his philos. language, and I asked SNL, a straight answer, and he finally did. Everything on the boards about he does not love me, but he loves the OW, he would not date me again, he does not want to sleep next to me, he does not want to have sex with me, he does not consider us to be intimate (he has to put on a show - smile - talk nice - show intimacy - hold hands - but deep inside he does not love me does not want to do it, only cares about me like his sister). SNL do you see that you have hurt me a great deal, by being dishonest with me and the Harleys? You never had intentions of trying to make this marriage work. You never had intentions of telling the OW husband, like the tapes of the cell phone conversations, you protected her and are still protecting her. Face it SNL, you want the OW in your life, and just like a few posts ago, you don't know what the future will bring for the two of you. You still want her, like you told me this morning, you found this overweight bimbo, quite attractive and you agreed to go to the hotel with her. SNL still tells me today, he didn't know they were going to have sex in the hotel. We weren't born yesterday, SNL, you knew deep inside that this was where you were going. You saw her and saw a woman with very sexy thoughts to even say I would rather go to a hotel than to go to dinner. SNL, you are evil, and you did commit adultery. <p>This is why I am so distraught, I have been in the same household with a adulterer, liar, selfish human being, and took money from the family. He doesn't feel bad about taking our money and using it on her. I still feel like he justifies his affair. We talk and he says yes what he did was wrong. But to this day, he considers what he and the OW did sexually was not adultery. He told me to talk to someone who is a christian educator, and ask them. I want to talk to a minister at a church I was thinking about going to, have talked to him many times on the phone, but SNL doesn't want me to talk to anyone that he knows, or is connected to the business. We do the church heating and cooling. SNL is still controlling the situation, cause he didn't want anyone to know about his sex with the OW as far as my family and friends. SNL, when are you going to let me heal, when are you going to protect me, when are you going to not protect the OW, when are you going to tell the truth to all of us, and tell the truth to her husband? Today, he says he doesn't want to be her dirty little secret. I asked him today, on some of the stuff that he writes on MB, and he says yes some of it is not true. It is written to get answers. I write with truth, and nothing else. <p>Our daughter heard a little of our talk, cause the bedroom door was open, heard us talk about me leaving, she said we don't have the money mom. I said yes I know. SNL just this morning wanted to talk about getting paperwork done, going through the bills and stuff. Laughed at the subject of doing paperwork to see how much money we don't have. Now I know why, cause he is getting ready for the divorce. Now that I am still here, he wants to use me to get all the dirty jobs done here, and then he will feel comfortable about leaving. Said he was not comfortable telling me that he wants to separate, I can't believe this guy, so dishonest or what?<p>Would anyone like to explain to SNL whether or not he committed adultery or not? This is driving me mad. SNL can sit here and say it over and over that he did not commit adultery. But still what he did with the OW is as private and personal as 2 people can get. The two of them would make a perfect couple, both are adulters, both committed adultery in their marriage, both took money from a family and don't feel bad about it, both knew where the hotel was leading to, both treated theit BS like sh*t, SNL treated me very harsely with name calling, throwing things at me, saying he wants to disown his kids, and start a new life with the OW and have a baby with her, and she stated in the e-mails that yes she wants to have a baby with SNL, all the secrets, and the OW had done this once already and still did it again knowing exactly where it was going to lead to. <p>Please, SNL, I am hurting and to know that you still feel the same way about her and the sex with her not being adultery, you show no remorse or guilt. I asked SNL why doesn't he, and he said he thought he was. How could SNL show remorse and guilt about his sexual affair? I told him I don't know, have never been in this situation, but would be nice if you all could help SNL in this situation. (The adultery issue, and the remorse and guilt). This is why we have not made grounds, he feels okay with what he did, and the truth comes out at last, he wants OUT!<p>[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: thinker ]</p>

(((((((((((((((((thinker)))))))))))))))))))))<p>I know how you feel in so many ways. I can only say this to you, and you will not believe it until you are maybe six months from the day you separate...you are going to feel a lot better without this stuff in your face every day. <p>Separation is awful, but from it I have learned many things about myself that I didn't know, and H has too. He didn't see me as the type to rebuild...I always clung to him, and relied on him for so much. But I AM rebuilding my life, and H knows it, and to be honest I don't really care what he thinks about it.<p>Many years ago, I believe I was on the brink of a very BIG crash...work related mainly. But someone quoted the serenity prayer to me, and I guess I have lived by it ever since. I realised that I could NEVER make H admit a single thing that he didn't want to, I could NOT change the way he chose to act towards me, I could NOT make him happy if he would not let me. I could NOT fill a single emotional need of his because he chose to put up an enormous wall, just like SNL has done to you. <p>He, like my H, is still very much in a fog, and no amount of begging, pleading, arguing, cajoling, bribing, LB'ing, will get HIM out of it unless HE wants to. There are just some people in the world that never will come out of that fog, too.<p>Believe me when I say this....my life has changed for the better without my cold-hearted husband there all the time. It is not joyously happy YET, but it will be. I know I can do it for myself, and for my children, and I know you can too.<p>The hardest thing to do is let go, but I think for you, like it was for me seven months ago, that time has come. Change the things you can, let go of those you can't. It is the ONLY way you will begin to recover.<p>Love and much healing light,<p>Jacky

thinker, I am glad if you guys are resolving things...sometimes divorce is better than living in perpetual limbo.<p>As for trying to get SNL to agree on the definition of adultery, why bother? FWIW, yes, I would agree it was adultery, probably most here would...others never will. You are unlikely to get an agreement from him, and it really won't change anything anyways. <p>Try to let go and look to the future, not the past...<p>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{thinker}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<p>Kathi

for the record, and should anyone be interested (and I have no idea why anyone would be interested), this tirade (and much more that was deleivered verbally) seems to have started out of what seemed to be (to me) a calm discussion about where to go from here, (ie separation)....as stated, I finally took a position and agreed we should try that...from there things deteriorated rapidly. Before they got completely out of hand, the "affair" came up again (not by me I can assure you), and I was verbally assaulted with the complete you are a no-good for nothing [censored] routine in it's various flavors. I took that in pretty good stride, trying to understand her need to vent on me (regularly), didn't defend myself....but in the course of this, somehow the issue of what is adultery came up....you would think I have learned by now not to play with loaded guns, but in my myopic interest of clarification I made the unpardonable error to suggest that adultery is a specific act (at least Biblically) and I simply observed I was not guilty of that.....I DID and have all along readily admitted I was guilty of infidelity, sexual impropriety, and unfaithfullness....and I have readily observed and will not argue (the point) that the difference means little to most BS. Why this is important to her I really don't understand...if she wants to call it adultery, fine with me, I was just trying to actually converse with her, I forgot I was suppose to just be sitting quietly and let her beat the tar out of me.<p>For some unknown reason thinker continues to berate me for justifying my behaviour, saying it is not wrong, having no regrets, not caring about her, and so forth. So once again, for the millionth time.<p>1. Affairs are wrong.<p>2. I was wrong.<p>3. I regret hurting you.<p>4. If I had it to do again, I would not do this.<p>5. I am sorry for the mean things I did to you after discovery.<p>6. You did not deserve any of this.<p>7. Despite our seriously dysfunctional marriage, it was my choice, my responsibility.<p>What more do you want from me? I assume you were just angry when you suggested I kill myself, but that is not ok even in anger. <p>I do not know why you choose to accuse me of not trying, it seems you only want it your way, and if that doesn't happen, you are somehow a victim, and I am a bad person. Well I am not a bad person, and I have been trying, just because it does not meet your expectations does not justify the things you said to me here, or at the house. There is a limit to the abuse that can (or should be) tolerated by a ws from any bs...we are people too, and if the only way you can heal is to trash us, tear us to shreds, then I guess I really don't want to be here (and neither do the other ws subject to such abuse). There are no gaurantees thinker and you know that, there can't be, there has to be honesty, or we just end up right back where we have been for 29 years. I have been fair, and I do not deserve this. You are hung up on the sex, it is all that is on your mind, that and the ow, and I am tired of it, you bring it up all the time, not me. The sex was a very small part of all this...mostly our troubles are about you and me, and trying to make it about the ow only distracts us from that.<p>You say you cannot keep all this inside you, then fine tell whoever you want, tell em how awful you think I am if that is what you need to heal, I will not say a word, take an ad out if that will help you, do anything you need to do, I will not object, I was wrong, and will just take my lumps to heal you, I just want this to end. It seems when there is so much anger, separation is appropriate, but we can't even do that in a responsible manner.

Yes, things are out of hand. I saw my GYN and this is tearing me apart. I am not to tell anyone about his sexual affiar, I am not to tell my friends, I am not to tell his mother, I am not to tell my mother. I have had to keep this harbored in me for 7 months, and it is tearing me apart. <p>I asked SNL today for us to talk to a minister that we know about this sexual affair. I asked SNL if we could ask him what is adultery, and to talk about his affair. SNL told me no, that he wouldn't cause he doesn't want anyone that he knows to know about his affair. He told me to talk to someone we don't know. <p>SNL compared me to the OW when we were having sex again. SNL asked me to go to my GYN to have her look at me and see if I was okay. This was 3 months ago. I asked SNL to go to that visit and he said it was inappropriate for him to go, I said it was okay. She looked & I turned out to be quite normal. Well, talking to my GYN this week, for a regular checkup, she asked about our situation, and I told her that the affair has been locked up inside me for this many months, and she told me it is eating you up. Yes, I feel sexually inadequate, unloved, a doormat. She listened, and crying helped me for that time.<p>To this day, as you can read he feels he did not commit adultery. I still have a hard time with SNL, I asked him how he could have sex with a woman who told him in December 2000 that she will never leave her husband, that she will always remain married to her husband. They started their sexual acts in Feb. of 2001. I asked him why did he have sex with her, knowing that she was not available to marry, that she was married, was never going to leave her marriage, and has done this in her marriage before him? He came back with he liked her. I said, so I like Mr. Joe down the block, so that means that I like him, I can have sex with him. Where are the morals, christianity, peace of mind? He still says he did not commit adultery, it was biology. I cannot get this biology through my head, I asked him when we first had sex, was it biology?<p>Anyways, he is going half cocked again. Didn't tell me he was going to the bookstore yesterday. Didn't tell the kids where he was going when I came home today. Of course, he blames me, saying you weren't home when he came home. I told him before I left where I was going, be with my mother. She cried a lot today, because of the loss of her husband, my father, she was on a downer day. I took her to a nearby town to look at somethings. She took me and her out to lunch, and we talked, and she cried and I cried. SNL was disrespectful to me in stating that going out shopping was not useful. SNL states, he gets on the boards, reads, does something useful. Seems like what thinker does, is useless stupid sh*t. Yes, I am not good enough for SNL, he admits it today. Says, I don't listen to what he says, well the same goes here. He always, has an answer for everything. <p>Well, SNL has controlled the whole situation, stating today, he doesn't care what Steve Harley says. I basically said, I have been sitting back while letting SNL go through his withdrawal and such. But, I am a good human being, and I have had enough rejection. <p>He goes on his (I call it tantrum), tell the whole world, put a flyer out, call everyone you know, post it on the boards on the highway, do whatever you want. I don't care, tell everybody. Do what you have to do. He does this with such venom and anger. Why let me do it now, when he has asked me to not tell anyone? It is out of anger, and revenge. SNL is not telling it exactly like it is. Yes, I have been very distraut, these last few days. On the trip our oldest daughter and I took, I cried a lot coming home driving. I was able to let the tears loose. Didn't have to account my actions to anyone. When SNL called me on the cellphone, I put on a good face. <p>I believe, he thinks this is all in my head. He told me today I am evil. I am only tearing up inside, and he doesn't see it as that. Of course, he criticizes me and says that I am an evil person, and revengeful. <p>Would love SNL to look at what I have had to endure for the last 7 months.

C'mon guys, get off the boards and TALK, TALK, TALK!!!!!!!<p>I am saying this MUCH earlier this time...really guys, the board should not be used to rant publically at each other. I do not see EITHER of you trying today.

oweeee, okay you two, this is not appropriate. Both of you know that. Get rid of it please.

How does one see SNL trying? Even Jennifer Harley gave up on SNL, he would not follow their path. Told him to talk to Steve Harley. Well, when SNL hangs up on Steve Harley, who is the one displaying anger? Who is the one that is afraid to hear from Steve that you are not working at it the Marriage Builders Way. This is not my way SNL, I just thought we were to do it the MB way. As all of you have read by SNL's posts, SNL stated many times, he will do this his way and his way only. He says many times, he doesn't believe anything that Steve Harley said. When Steve Harley asked SNL what his path was, there was no comment from SNL. SNL I believe you think you are following some sort of path. But what happens when the counselors can't figure it out, and ask you to define it and you don't? This is why I am so tormented, and upset. SNL you believe you are doing MB, so there is no more to say about that, you will believe what you believe.<p>So, am I wrong forr getting bent out of shape because SNL is not working with Marriage Builders? It was the same with Retrouvaille, we went to the seminar weekend, of course SNL talked to his lover just minutes before we were to leave and I heard the whole conversation outside our bedroom window, then when we got back from the seminar weekend, he left for the day, and of course talked to the OW (saw the phone bills). Then when we were to do the follow-up classes on Friday nights, we did only a few. SNL would not do the homework assignments willingly and eventually did not want to continue going, stating they were a bunch of whimps. They were a helpful group, but for those that wanted to save their marriage.<p>SNL and I did start to talk about separation. SNL wants for both of us to stay here at the house together. SNL states we cannot afford for one of us to move out of the house. Finances are not that great right now, owe quite a bit of money here and there. SNL wants for us to get everything organized and in order, all finances, papers, everything. Then he states when that is done we can separate. I felt like a doormat. Things seem to have to go his way, or he gets so angry. SNL, where is the BS suppose to have some control? Yes, I know the WS is the one to sets the boundaries, wish you would show love to me, real love, and wish you would say that you are committed to this marriage. I am a human with deep emotions and a heart also. Remember I was your wife once, now just a paper wife, and the OW does not want you. She is a user of men.<p>SNL has set the conditions in this house since he started the affair with Debi. Just being here for us only physcially, but mentally not caring about thinker, his mom, his kids, stating quite a few times, and stating on the boards, why care about the kids? He asked me this just last week, why care for the kids, they don't care about him? It is like a switch, turn his love off towards the kids. These children were his choice to make, just abandon them? This was a God given choice for you to create these children. They were not created out of lust, they were created out of love. This is so hard to accept when he says these cruel words. <p>SNL asked me tonight if I want to be married to him. I said no, this is not the man I married, this is not the man I thought who cared about family, this is not the man who wanted to be committed to vows, this is not the man who I thought was a christian, this is not the man who I had a lot of laughs with, this is not the man who wanted to do outdoor activities, this is not the man who I enjoyed doing things with, this man criticizes thinker too much, this man criticizes his mother, this man criticizes his father (for his drunkedness), this man doesn't seem to want his family (my opinion, I may be wrong).<p>I would like to have SNL back as I once knew him. A caring man, a loving man, a man who wanted children, a man who saw vows as sincere, a man who was committed, a man who wanted family, a man who wanted to exchange love with family, a man who enjoyed exercise (we met at an exercise class), a man who cared about his health, a man who loved to watch movies together, a man who loved to lay in bed and read, all the things that brought us together. <p>SNL, if you do not want this marriage, I suggest that you tell me to my face. I would like for once to have radical honesty from you. Yes, I read how bad you feel about hurting me. Would of been nice to hear that you committed adultery, but like you told me tonight, you didn't commit adultery, you liked the OW and therefore you had sex with her and it was not lust. She was never going to marry you SNL, she told you before you had the sexual affair, that she will never leave her husband, why are you so deaf to words? I asked, so if you like the neighbor, are you going to have sex with her. SNL you don't realize how the hurt is inside of me. You don't realize that the feelings I have are so severe. You are not showing compassion to me. Yes, you were told in the EN paper, what I would like. You can't seem to do it, you are just going to do things the way you want. Then you state that you are trying the MB principles the best you can. The first stage was to be thoughtful to thinker, I really don't think that one is too hard. I asked for kisses in the morning and evening. That is not too hard is it? I really didn't ask for much, cause I felt there was too much anger in you.<p>I don't know where you are anymore. You don't call me, you stated tonight that we've become relaxed with telling each other where we are, I haven't if you will recall. I tell you when I am going to physical therapy, and what I am going to do afterwards. Why didn't you tell me yesterday you were going to the bookstore? I thought you were somewhere talking to the OW, I stated that today. You didn't tell me where you were today? You are not being accountable for your time. The same with the money, I wish you would take the responsibility of showing me your wallet in the morning, and telling me how much came in for the day, and checking your wallet. SNL I have so much on my mind, and I can't keep doing this all the time. Would be nice for you to show me that you were willing to take this action into your hands and do this on your own. Would mean so much.<p> I want to talk to a minister with you there. I need to get this out of my system, cause I am destroying inside bits by bits. You stated today that you are not causing this. Maybe not, but by not telling anyone in conversation, this has brought my body to a complete state of turmoil. You cannot imagine how it feels inside to hold all this information in. I cannot be a real friend to my friends. They ask what is wrong, and I have to lie. SNL I never liked lies, hated lies, and those lies of yours destroyed a lot of cells.<p>Yes, you told me in deep anger today to tell, put an ad out. SNL, this is severe anger. This was unacceptable anger on your part. Why are you doing this? Don't you think that this anger is unreasonable for what I have had to harbor inside of me for these past 7 months?<p>Wish we could make this marriage work.<p>[ February 10, 2002: Message edited by: thinker ]</p>

*<p>[ February 10, 2002: Message edited by: Boaz ]</p>

I am one of those longtime lurkers who hardly ever posts. But this morning I am making an exception because there is so much horror in this thread.<p>Over the years I have seen couples posting here and my thought is that it rarely helps the situation. Are both of you receiving what you need here? I can't imagine that you are. <p>snl, are you really telling your wife that she can't tell anyone about the affair? Because if you are, I think it's time to let that one go. You're gonna get a divorce, and all bets are off. <p>thinker, at this point, I think you should tell your mother or anyone that isn't on snl's side of the family. Tell YOUR friends and family so you can get some SUPPORT.<p>snl, you are right that you are playing with a "loaded gun" and I think you should keep that in mind with even the most innocent conversations with your wife. DO NOT ENGAGE.<p>thinker, DO NOT TALK TO SNL about the affair or the woman or anything related to it. There is no good to come from it.<p>Both of you GET HELP with this. I have read your threads over and over and then seem to get more desperate from thinker and snl seems to be doing damage control mostly.<p>Get your divorce and find some way to HEAL, please.

Statue - I am unable to tell my mother at this time. My mother just lost her husband (my father) January 2, 2002 to cancer. I worry about her, and I went out with her yesterday just to get out, and her and I cried our hearts out. She misses her husband, knows he is much better off, and through counseling with the priest at the church, she has sought some help. I could not, would not put this on my mothers mind right now for anything. I would rather die than tell her.<p>I have asked SNL to tell his mother, that he had a sexual affair. The reason I want him to tell, is cause he committed adultery, and his mother questions me about why I feel the way I do. I lie and say with SNL posting why be married, why etc? and then my fathers death (him and I were really close), so far she seems to have accepted this answer.<p>Also, I am sending a certified letter to the OW house, just stating have you told your husband. It is signed both our names. I found out through a little investigating, that they did not move, the realtor gave me the wrong address. So the OW when I called her on Saturday, (about a month ago) to leave a message that I knew everything, and then I called again on Wednesday, to see if she was available to talk, the phone was disconnected. Yesterday, I found out that she had the number changed, to an unlisted, private number.<p>I see this as putting a closure for me. SNL has controlled the whole situation from day one, and it has literally tore me up inside. I have to take charge and get this OW out of my system, and move on.<p>This marriage would of had a chance, but it takes two to work on it equally to get good results. We are compatible in many ways, but I am human and need love and admiration, and lovebank to be filled. Yes, SNL states that I am a hard worker, and like others have stated here, he seems to follow with a but, that erases the good intention in the beginning, and results in criticism. I have lived with criticism most of my life from my brother and mother. Now that I lost the only person who didn't criticize me (my father), I feel lost and lonely and nowhere to go for positive feedback.

Thinker,<p>You've put up with an enormous amount, I don't know how you've found the strength to cope. Yes, I think any reasonable person would say SNL committed adultery. Does it really matter though if he admits to it, it doesn't change him back into the good man he once was. <p>I think all us BS would love to have our WS admit that they did wrong, committed adultery, show remorse, tell us everything etc etc, but you can't force them. It's very difficult, but can you step back a bit from the situation and say to yourself 'what will be the positive outcome for me if I do x or y'? For example, if you stay with SNL you'll destroy yourself from the stress of it. If you leave, or SNL leaves (as I think he should, out of decency) you'll have some time to relax a bit. You're under such pressure now that there's no way you can think clearly.<p>I don't think you need SNL's permission to talk to someone about his affair. By this stage it's clear SNL has no real interest in rebuilding the marriage, so you must look after yourself now. Talk to whoever you feel can give you support, it's not as if you're besmirching SNL's reputation - he really DID commit adultery and mistreated his family. SNL brought this on all by himself, you shouldn't have to bear the burden of it alone.<p>I wish I could make it all better for you Thinker, my prayers are with you.<p>Evensong

Evensong - yes, things are pretty bad here. SNL still says, he had sex with the other woman cause he was bonding with her for what? She was not going to ever leave her marriage, she told him this 2 months before he saw her. She was not going to be with him ever again, after the sexual frenzy. So why bond, for what? This is so hard for me to comprehend. I have not had another man in my life. I don't know what another man feels like or even looks like with the passion. Doing catherizations, I have seen lots of penises. SNL says his affair without remorse in his voice, just like it happens all the time. That is what is so hard to deal with. He seems to just say it like having to go to the bathroom, it is a natural cause. <p>I asked SNL for permission to tell, cause he asked me to please tell no one. I care about him, and actually love him, but hate his attitude about the affair. His attitude is so uncaring to me, but caring to only the OW. The affair was meant to be. The way his face and actions are, like it just happened. I wrote him a letter today, explaining the voice and actions of the OW. Telling him that if a specialist could hear their conversations before the time H was going to her state to see her, I bet the expert could find signs that this woman was waiting to get SNL in bed. She is the one who suggested going to the hotel instead of going out to dinner. Just like her having sex with a minister in her church during the first 10 years of her marriage. No one tied her down and carried her in the back room of the church. No one pulled her panties down, no one told her to have intercourse during her period, she suggested it during her period because she didn't want to get pregnant. If only she knew how many woman get pregnant during their period, double ovulation in some woman. Would of been an eye opener for the OW husband, if she was to announce to him that she is pregnant. Just like I told SNL, your sperm was in range of pregnancy, what would the OW tell her H, I am pregnant by SNL.<p>I asked SNL while he was driving around in the rental car, that he forged my name and social security on, what would he of done if he got stopped for a traffic violation? How was he going to explain that this car was under my name with my social security # and I was never in that state? I found out when we got our credit card statement, it had the rental car on it. I can't remember why I called the rental agency in her state, but something was wrong with the bill. Anyways, the guy looked it up and found that H used my name and social security # on the bill. I asked who signed it, and he said it was signed with my name. H forged my name. The guy said that I could press charges against SNL. It would cost $50.00 for false identification. What would he of done during their sexual frenzy, if he had a heart attack, and were taken to the hospital? How would he explain to the police and hospital personnel and to me, about the OW? I also asked him what would he do if they got in a car accident, and both were taken in for the accident or to the hospital? How would he explain that to me, and she to her husband? You were just friends, unclothed, practicing biology, no adultery according to SNL, but having fun, is that what he would say?<p>Also, what bothers me is I feel God is looking over my shoulder all the time. Did SNL feel God looking over his shoulder as he was having sex with the OW? Since they both profess to be good christians. I talk to God a lot on my walks, and when I want to do something that is not ethical, I talk to him in my mind, and he does answer me. He has helped me through many false actions. Why doesn't having sex bother some people, who are married? This bothers me too. Obviously, the OW doesn't have any problem having sex with other men during her marriage. I guess to her it is part of a womans job.<p>I am very depressed today. Don't know exactly why, but I can't seem to stop the crying. Went for a walk with the dogs, but the shoulder of the roads have too much ice packed snow in spots, and it was hurting my knee that I just had surgery on a couple of months ago. So that really didn't help me, my knee hurt too much. I tried to clean, but you know when you are this down, nothing matters. Life doesn't matter, food doesn't matter, breathing doesn't matter. I have to say I am really down today, and it is bothering me. This is like I felt when SNL told me about his sexual frenzy with the OW. Life is worth nothing.<p>Saw my GYN just this week, and she feels depression meds are okay at dosage. So I feel it has to do with SNL and his attitude.<p>Also, it hurts me to see SNL seems happy that we are talking about separating. It is like he was waiting for this time to come, and it is like he is relieved, I could be wrong, but he has no problem eating, doing things, still on the computer, and everything else. I would like him to answer that for me, it does feel like he is happy now. Maybe he is cause this is what he wanted in the long run. He tells me he didn't, but I don't believe him very much. The choice of trusting him is not here, he has not proven himself responsible for his actions yet, and time, and money. <p>Talked a little about him not telling me where he was the day before. Didn't tell me he was going to the bookstore, the way he told me later was like no big deal, the bookstore was after I did the service call. If the toughtfulness towards me could of been there, if he would of called. To tell me he was going to the bookstore, and if he could pick up a book for me. SNL you are my husband, and I do love you, showing that you love me would help fill my lovebank, showing that you want this marriage, ditto, committment spoken with truth, ditto. <p>Bye for now.

Thinker,
Over and over you have been given wonderful, excellent, caring and compassionate advice by the people who push aside their own pain momentarily to reach out to a stranger on this forum. So many who have been where you are have offered their comfort and their words of wisdom to help you navigate this horrible ordeal. But, I for one, have to be honest here and tell you my patience is very nearly spent.
I don't think I can possibly even read another thread in which you post. You have not heard one shred of input that anyone has offered. You are still rehashing the affair and every detail about the OW. You couldn't possibly have begun any work at all on Thinker because you can't see past the OW 'pulling her panties down'. I said several months ago that if I saw that phrase posted one more time I was going to scream!!!!<p>And here it is. If you choose to continue on this path, you will not find any recovery for yourself. It is as simple as that. You will be in this pain FOREVER. <p>You say you asked SNL to tell his mother. That is a cop out. If you want his mother to know -tell her. You say you asked SNL to go to the minister and talk to him about the affair. That is a cop out. If you want to talk to the minister, pick up the phone and make an appointment and go sit down in the man's office and tell him. You don't need SNL's permission to tell anybody anything. Take out a full page ad in the NY Times if you want to. Go on Oprah. Call a radio talk show. TELL THE WORLD. But, listen to me - it doesn't change a thing. You can write a book if you want to, but you can't make SNL feel what you want him to feel. You can't change what he did. You can't go back to where you were. You can only go forward. Or, you can choose to do what you are doing right now and stay stuck. Stuck in misery.<p>It really is up to you. Not SNL. Not anybody else. Just thinker.

I agree...I am losing patience...Thinker is not listening...she will NOT give up her obsession with the OW.....<p>I know what it feels like to be betrayed, but for goodness sakes, this bitterness would surely drive SNL away or into the arms of another woman.<p>I do understand her pain and I am sorry for it... but, I am beginning to wonder if Thinker CAN see how SHE is and CAN change...One thing Just Learning said that I have never forgotten: "there is no pancake so flat that it does not have two sides"....

Wiffle wrote: You are still rehashing the affair and every detail about the OW. You couldn't possibly have begun any work at all on Thinker because you can't see past the OW &#8230;. If you choose to continue on this path, you will not find any recovery for yourself. It is as simple as that. You will be in this pain FOREVER. <p>Thinker, I agree with Wiffle. I have only read a handful of your husband&#8217;s posts, and chose not to anymore because I just kept walking away with this feeling that here&#8217;s another WS that has never let go of OW or fantasy of her. Almost everything he writes says &#8220;woe is me, for I cannot have my &#8216;true love&#8217;.&#8221; He&#8217;s still caught up in the addiction, the fog, whatever you want to call it. There&#8217;s been no end to the affair. Yes, physically maybe, but psychologically he&#8217;s still consumed with the thought of being with her. You know him better than I, Thinker. <p>OTOH, you desire to have him have remorse, recommit to the marriage, work on filling your love bank, say he was so sorry for hurting you. I&#8217;m probably not going to be the only BS to tell you this, but at this stage, it ain&#8217;t gonna happen. Yes, it would be nice, and it could really form some cornerstone for recovery, but you&#8217;re dreaming. It usually takes months, if not years, after the WS truly ends all contact AND desire to contact before this happens. Or it may never happen at all. Jennifer told me that a lot of recoveries occur without the WS ever saying that they are sorry.<p>Wiffle wrote: TELL THE WORLD. But, listen to me - it doesn't change a thing. You can write a book if you want to, but you can't make SNL feel what you want him to feel. You can't change what he did. You can't go back to where you were. You can only go forward. Or, you can choose to do what you are doing right now and stay stuck. Stuck in misery.<p>It really is up to you. Not SNL. Not anybody else. Just thinker.<p>Well, I wouldn&#8217;t tell the world. You said something about Harley counseling &#8211; what does Steve say? Sometimes the Harley&#8217;s are split over exactly how public to make the affair. I agree with Wiffle though, it is time to move forward. Get a counseling session and let them help you pull your thoughts together so that you can do that. Muddling in misery is not doing you any good. And regardless of what you may hope, I suspect it is having little adverse affect on him either. His mindset is probably still that life has cheated him out of his &#8220;true love&#8221;, everything is so unfair, and that you cannot possibly be hurting half as much as him. He&#8217;s still in the fog of the affair. Pleading, begging, even arguing or debating with him is going to yield nothing but continued frustration to you.<p>It really is up to you. I wish it weren&#8217;t true, but SNL is not going to rescue you. You have to rescue yourself.

What Thinker wants:
SNL to DENOUNCE OW and turn all his attention to their family unit and LOVE her unconditionally, totally, fully and sexually in the way he did (the way she thinks he did) to ow.<p>What SNL wants:
Thinker to get off his case, stop ranting on about OW, stop calling them both names and demeaning, agrandizing, and basically continuing in a fit of uncontrolled frenzy. Let him continue to get his "ducks in a row" until such time as HE is ready to move on. <p>Neither is going to get what they want.<p>What will likely happen:
They will divorce. It will be UGLY in every sense. Thinker will continue to be an angry, hurt, demoralized xW who rehashes the A with EVERYONE she crosses paths with...until she has NO friends or family to interact with anymore.
SNL will probably either remain alone (because he's already tried adulterous love, AND tried the "committment" type stuff - doesn't seem to "fit" anyone, why try again?) OR will go back to OW and continue in A (only to return here in a year or two FINALLY repentant admitting it was a big mistake), OR find another woman. Maybe this time he WILL find someone who can take his "inner contemplation, and reflection" moods and not get nuts on him. In other words, a better fit for him. I DO understand his description of this. I DO understand NOT wanting to stay in this house....if Thinker's posts are any indication of what it's like day after day. One out of three chance for happiness for him, how sad.<p>HOWEVER, do I blame him for her future unhappiness? Not entirely. HE has shown NO "care, protection, patience" etc - the 4 rules of recovery (I've forgotten them all) for his w. BUT she has NOT let go of the A, not forgiven him unconditionally (yet says she talks to God everyday - go figure). SHE has shown no "care, protection, patience" etc. either.<p>It's been their "dance" throughout their whole M. Maybe he wanted it to change, found a devastatingly bad way to try to attempt this, realized it, but now is unable to go back to the way it was. I don't blame him. <p>Thinker, I would have been OUT OF THERE a long time ago because of your attitude.<p>SNL - I would have KICKED YOUR [censored] OUT a long time ago because of YOUR continued attitude.<p>I think we are "throwing pearls before swine" in this case. I don't think they WANT to get fixed. I think they LIKE this misery they live in.

Case closed. Next.

Dear Thinker,<p>I am new to this sight and have read your saga for a couple of weeks. I wasn't planning on ever replying to a post but, I feel really compeled to send something to you. Sometimes two very good people seem to bring out the very worst in each other. You both seem to do that to each other. It's not a win/loose situation. Maybe there is a point you have accept that it is over and move on. If SNL was unhappy with the relationship and he didn't end up with this OW you speak of, odds are he would of ended up with another OW. I am recently divorced and went through a similar situation. My ex-husband didn't want to be with me anymore and no matter how we tried it was not working (this went on for about three years). He may of stayed for ever (out of guilt) but, eventually, I realized my self esteem just couldn't take it anymore. And you know what.....life does get better. You look back and it so nice to be at peace and not carry around all of that anger.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by dsmith:
<strong>Dear Thinker,<p>I am new to this sight and have read your saga for a couple of weeks. I wasn't planning on ever replying to a post but, I feel really compeled to send something to you. Sometimes two very good people seem to bring out the very worst in each other. You both seem to do that to each other. It's not a win/loose situation. Maybe there is a point you have accept that it is over and move on. If SNL was unhappy with the relationship and he didn't end up with this OW you speak of, odds are he would of ended up with another OW. I am recently divorced and went through a similar situation. My ex-husband didn't want to be with me anymore and no matter how we tried it was not working (this went on for about three years). He may of stayed for ever (out of guilt) but, eventually, I realized my self esteem just couldn't take it anymore. And you know what.....life does get better. You look back and it so nice to be at peace and not carry around all of that anger.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Truer words were never written. <p>My stbx and tried for close to 2 yrs, well we both sort of tried, he couldn't give up OW and I just couldn't try my hardest knowing she was still lurking in the shadows <p>but live goes on and does get better if YOU let go of the anger. I am at peace and one day I maybe really happy again. For now I settle for money in the bank but I am better off than I was a yr ago, lots better off

SnL and Thinker ... do you two have any idea how bad you're going to feel later on for the things you've been saying to one another. <p>I don't mean to be judgemental, I just know that my x-H said some unconscionable things to me and he can never take them back, NEVER. They continue to weigh on me, and I'm almost certain he as well.<p>Life does go on, and your futures, whether together or apart, will consist of your memories of all this. <p>Please begin to respect one another.<p>Lv,
Jo