{{{TheStudent}}}...<p>I'm moving my responses off of Follower's post...<p>I am in the most humblest of ways responding to your post.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>If Follower wants to understand his wife, then he could stand to hear from women who have been through it.<hr></blockquote>... hearing from all sides would fare... and responsible... that is all that was intended by my links in my 2 replies to Follower.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Whether men love their children or not is irrelevant.<hr></blockquote>... I don't think you really mean this...? Love is the most relevant of "choices".
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Until they come out of a man's body, the woman will always be more important. <hr></blockquote>... can we really underestimate the value of a self-sacrificial love from both parents given to a child?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>and...no, I don't have children and won't until I can take care of them by myself. I won't be financially or domestically dependent on a man to have a family.<hr></blockquote>...delibrately excluding the male influence... is to deprive the child of a positive gender role model... (I don't mean the perfect husband or father... there is no such thing).... but for a child (whether a daughter or son)... in understanding how men and women can relate (in a positive way) is very important. In showing them that men and women can't relate is a disservice. To experience parental sacrifice in being raised... in love... is crucial to building a society of compassion and tolerance. To exclude the male influence... (or the female influence) because you can't find the perfect man/woman to jointly participate in raising the child... or won't let him/her help financially... domestically... shows what to the child?... is "love" the issue... or dependence/independence?<p>----------------<p>I know pregnancy is not a disease... but... the pregnancy and the life it bestows IS a blessing... regardless of the the mother's health... or if the child can be cared for after it is born.
Love is always a risk... having a child requires a sacrifice... whether in the carrying the child or for the financial responsibility in raising it... a substantial sacrifice! If we can't accept that sacrificial responsibility, and see the value of fatherhood and motherhood... we are being irresponsible in having that child. Love is sacrifice.<p>I pray for you... as a person...
...not because I'm better than you... I am not... ...I have much to grow too...
...not because I'm 'holier' than you... I am not......I have much to grow too...
...not because I'm a man... ...I have much to grow too...
...but because I have love and concern for you...
...you deserve nothing less!... just because you are you!<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Jim/NSR

NSR,<p>I've never said anyone didn't have a right to post anything they wanted. There was a preponderance of posters who had never had an abortion and who were stating theories about post-abortion regrets. I wanted him to know that there are women out there who do not have regrets about doing it. <p>I have no doubt that men love their children. Whether they do or not has no bearing on whether a woman should bear a child. It is and always will be her body. <p>I know there are some women who are willing to die in order to have a child. This is not a consideration a man has to make. His feelings have nothing to do with it. <p>quote "I won't be financially or domestically dependent on a man to have a family" Nowhere does that say that I won't allow a man to be an influence on my potential children. I agree that men can have a very positive influence on children and I would prefer it. However, there is a HUGE difference between allowing a man to have influence and being financially/domestically dependent upon them. They can HELP all they want.<p>What do men think they are buying with a paycheck anyway? Hey, I don't have to get married to have a maid and a cook. Then again...A good nanny is pretty expensive, and you can't have sex with them. A wife is a GREAT deal for a man who wants a family. I would love to have a "wife". It's no hardship for me to keep a job. I've worked for 20 years. For a financially well-off woman who wants a family, I don't see too many benefits to having a husband unless he is that rare breed who actually believes in dividing the childcare/domestic labor ...AND believes that her career is just as important as his...AND that 30% or so who doesn't cheat ...AND they never get divorced. Wow, that's alot of ANDs. <p>"I know pregnancy is not a disease... but... the pregnancy and the life it bestows IS a blessing..."
Alright. Take a trip down to Venezuela and visit the family with 7 kids, living in a tin hut. The mothers have to walk for 3+ hours to get medical care and barely scratch out a living. Go visit women in Africa, who were given AIDS by their husbands and are now giving birth to children with AIDS. Giving birth like stray dogs because they don't have any other choices--except maybe self-induced abortion or killing their newborns. That happens too. Oh, and don't even talk about abstinence. Rape is so prevalent there that some women have resorted to getting rape insurance so they can get drugs to lesson their chances of acquiring AIDS after the fact. The only life that children in these countries have to look forward to is one of hardship and hunger and then tell me if you consider pregnancy a blessing.

I apologize for crashing this thread. And by no means am I trying to lessen the importance of it's subject matter ....<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> The Student Wrote:
It's no hardship for me to keep a job. I've worked for 20 years. For a financially well-off woman who wants a family, I don't see too many benefits to having a husband unless he is that rare breed who actually believes in dividing the childcare/domestic labor ...AND believes that her career is just as important as his...AND that 30% or so who doesn't cheat ...AND they never get divorced. Wow, that's alot of ANDs. <hr></blockquote><p>TS,<p>When you place your order for this particular male, can you be sure and order 2 of them.<p>Thanks,
Jo

TS,<p>You write from a place of experience. But you have only touched one side of the elephant. And you describe it as if it is the whole. <p>I am a woman. But I know men who have suffered every moment of a pregnancy with their wives. They have known another side that you minimize as insignificant. I say it is not insignificant. The ultimate suffering a person can do is the suffering of helplessness. When the choices are out of his or her hands, as in the process of pregnancy, abortion, miscarriage, death - as in the husband who stands to lose the love of his life (Yes, there are men out there like that who are faithful, loyal, loving, kind, generous and courageous... But people see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear and if they hate men and think of men as dispicable selfish creatures, that's all they will find in humanity!)<p>Or the helplessness of a parent who has a child choosing drugs, anger, rage, recklessness, etc. or who becomes ill. That parent doesn't know the direct suffering - but their heart aches to carry that burden for the child instead. <p>Please don't stop studying the elephant; don't assume you have all the information. Please live up to your name sake and open yourself up that there's another side of life and humanity out there than what you know from your own limited experience.

Oh hey - like Jo, sorry to crash, but I would kind of like one for myself. <p>TS- <p>I only wish I would have had half your brain about 10 years ago. Not that my kids aren't awesome, but I was in no position to care for them if my husband left, which he did, and which has left me in single parent hell. If I knew then what I know now I would have done things much differently.<p>Sure, men are nice, IF they are nice men. My husband knew nothing of what it was like for me to spend 7 months in bed to carry my first child to almost term. He didn't have to spend the last two months of that time in the hospital with me. <p>I could go on...<p>Just make sure you put me on that amazon.com men wanted wish list of yours.<p>Elizabeth

I'll take the chance of incurring the wrath..<p>I was not perfect. Nope. Made many mistakes. Some pushed the boundaries of innovation and inspiration...<p>That said..<p>I was a participatory dad. Supportive, at ALL Dr. appointments. <p>In the delivery room for both kids.<p>I love babies.<p>I didn't mind getting up at night, early am, changing diapers,etc.<p>I cook, clean do laundry ( ok, in a manly way), and have a great job.<p>I do not/ did not cheat.<p>My wife, uh stbx, has gifts. It is her choice to work or not.<p>We had a huge, beautiful house.<p>And she walked away. For the party life.<p>Oh yeah.. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>What do men think they are buying with a paycheck anyway?<hr></blockquote><p>Offensive. Do you know of a supposed man who has employed this argument? This seems to be a reference to an outdated domestic model stereotype.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>A wife is a GREAT deal for a man who wants a family.<hr></blockquote><p>Uh, yeah. A partner to share the best life has to offer? Is this a trick question?<p>The argument employed seems to suggest that most males are a manipulative breed out to dupe women into some degree of subservience. What is this based on?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Whether men love their children or not is irrelevant.<hr></blockquote><p>C'mon. <p>This seems to have struck a nerve w me....<p>[ April 14, 2002: Message edited by: Family Man ]</p>

"Yes, there are men out there like that who are faithful, loyal, loving, kind, generous and courageous..."<p>Of course there are. I'm pretty tired of hearing this defense, though. The existence of a few is no defense against the behavior of the majority. I would love to be proven wrong. I get very excited for my female friends and co-workers when they happen to find such a man. I have a few male friends who fall into the category you describe. Really gives me hope for the rest of us women out there. However, most of the time I'm sadly disappointed. Until I see a majority of men acting responsibly and are more than just cash-cows, I won't invest an inordinate amount of time on them. Fortunately, I don't have to.<p>Family man,
Thanks for posting. You are one man closer to a majority. <p>"Do you know of a supposed man who has employed this argument?"
Yes. All of the time. The fact that they hold a job appears to give many men a feeling of entitlement and status in relationships that women do not enjoy when they work. The main theory why men won't stay home to take care of children even when a) women make more than them b) women have entered the job market in droves. <p>"The argument employed seems to suggest that most males are a manipulative breed out to dupe women into some degree of subservience."<p>Yep. Some consciously. Some unconsciously. Some religions actually teach that as a model relationship. The rest just follow the laws of supply and demand.<p>[ April 14, 2002: Message edited by: TheStudent ]<p>[ April 14, 2002: Message edited by: TheStudent ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheStudent:
<strong>"Yes, there are men out there like that who are faithful, loyal, loving, kind, generous and courageous..."<p>Of course there are. .... However, most of the time I'm sadly disappointed. Until I see a majority of men acting responsibly and are more than just cash-cows, I won't invest an inordinate amount of time on them. Fortunately, I don't have to.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Let's talk about women for a minute. Are women living the level of perfection you impose on men? Nah! Women are not the ultimate in virtue, or you'd never see the grief about the OW in so many posts on these marriage builder boards.<p>Marriage is a PARTNERSHIP. It is a sharing that can only be truly successful when there is a man who is equally committed with a woman who is totally committed. There can be no "I'm right and you're wrong" scenario there. They must struggle and work through their differences. You may beat upon your "textbook" all you want that men are this way and women are that. That women don't need men; and that men are weak, dependent, control freaks. You haven't met the MAJORITY of the men out there. And you haven't met the MAJORITY of women either. <p>Get your hands dirty for a while and you'll find that men and women are pretty much the same, just doing the best they can with the cards they've been given. <p>Pregnancy is an experience that when done by oneself - unless one is very careful and conscious of the danger, will warp and twist one's psychie into the pretzel you carry around as truth! It will fill you with bitterness and color your perceptions for the rest of your life. <p>You could well be my sister. She's a wonderful human being, but despises men in general and humanity as a whole. She had an abortion; her family never once condemned her for it, but sorrowed for the loss and the loneliness she suffered. She shut us out of her life a couple of years before that, but we never stopped reaching out for her. She has no idea how we felt. It was all in her own little world of pain that she suffered, needlessly alone. <p>I'm so sorry you went through that and your ignorance is worthy of pity. It's not your fault. But your healing is in your hands. Give up your bitterness toward men and women or all you will find are arrogant, worthless human beings out there. I believe you are capable, once armed with an open mind that can be filled with new ideas and paradigms, of healing!

Kayla,<p>"Get your hands dirty for a while and you'll find that men and women are pretty much the same, just doing the best they can with the cards they've been given."<p>Yep. But I also believe that there are certain social forces at work that benefit some more than others. <p>I don't despise men. I work with all men (I'm an engineer) and have many male friends. They are great people. If men don't like the rap they are getting, then they can do something about it. Hey, go volunteer at a rape crisis center, volunteer to teach a child how to read. Shoot, volunteer for anything. I've been doing volunteer work for years. The vast majority of people I see at these functions are WOMEN. Why is that? <p>No, I haven't met the majority of men or women. That's silly. <p>"I'm so sorry you went through that and your ignorance is worthy of pity."
sorry I went through what, an abortion? I don't regret it and never have. I'm sad that our society is the way it is, but that is out of my hands. If I'd gotten pregnant while a citizen of Sweden (one country that generally has excellent work/family policies) maybe I would have kept it. <p>"It's not your fault." That I got pregnant? Sure it was. It was his fault too. And every guy who whines about male inititated birth control gets to hear it from me. Every woman who doesn't insist that her partner actively participate in birth control (physically and monetarily) also hears it from me.

Family Man,<p>Wanna date?<p>Elizabeth

See what I mean?! All a guy has to do is his 50% and women are drooling all over him. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] Must be nice. <p>Hey Family man, wanna quit your job and be my house-husband? No? Didn't think so. Darn.

No - not sorry that you went through the abortion and that you got pregnant in the first place. But that you experienced pregnancy from such a lonely desperate place that it twisted your perceptions of men and women and power.<p>Yes, I believe some people have advantages in the cards they are dealt; you know nothing about the hand I was dealt. But where you see men one way, I see what is possible. You see women as disadvantaged and needing to claim power over men; I see that as going too far along a swinging pendulum of extremes and neither extreme will heal society's ills. THERE MUST BE A BALANCE - and what you prostelyte is not balanced or healing! The solutions you offer are more of the same that has gone on for eons - just a different tyranny by a different gender!<p>[ April 14, 2002: Message edited by: KaylaAndy ]</p>

Being satisfied... ...and giving thanks:<p>Dear Lord...
...thank you for making me a man...
...even though others may say men oppress women...<p>Dear Lord...
...thank you for making me a women...
...even though others don't value me as much as a man...<p>Dear Lord...
...thank you for making me a child...
...even though I may not be treated well... even maybe abused...<p>Dear Lord...
...thank you for putting me in a family...
...even though my family may breakup...<p>Dear Lord...
...thank you for making me a minority...
...even though others may look down on me....<p>Dear Lord...
...thank your for making me in the majority...
...even though others will claim I hate them...<p>Dear Lord...
...thank you for making me poor...
...even though few show caringness to me... you do...<p>Dear Lord...
...thank you for making me a cripple...
...even though it causes other's to turn away...<p>Dear Lord...
...thank you for letting me grow old...
...even though other's think my life should come to an end... now...<p>Dear Lord...
...thank you for making me blind...
...even though I don't see... my sights are set on you...<p>Dear Lord...
...thank you for giving me intelligence...
...even though... with one quick disease... I may lose it all...<p>Dear Lord...
...thank you for all that I achieve...
...even though... they aren't my achievements... but yours...<p>Dear Lord...
...thank you for my indepedence on others...
...even though without others... I would not know you... ...or grow close to you...<p>Dear Lord...
...thank you for being an unborn child...
...even though I might be killed... for the sake of "choice"... and convenience...<p>Dear Lord...
...thank you for helping be satisfied... in what you have made me... given me... and will change for me. It may not be what society likes... or thinks is good... but your will reaches beyond our imagintation...<p>Dear Lord...
...thank you for all you given me or made me...
...it is by your design...<p>...and when I put others down... they say I oppress them... say they hate me... or I mock them... or I judge them...
...help to remember... you gave to them... what you did... and made them in your image. If you are satisfied with what you did for them... let me humble myself... to be satisfied with others too.<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Dear Lord...
...this is my 5000th post...
...thank you for letting me grow... in humility!<p>[ April 14, 2002: Message edited by: NSR ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>The vast majority of people I see at these functions are WOMEN. Why is that?<hr></blockquote><p>In my case, it's 'cause I'm staying at home taking care of those kids...<p> [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by K:
In my case, it's 'cause I'm staying at home taking care of those kids...
<hr></blockquote><p>
Doh!

JTW - OK. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

kayla,<p>funny...you believe I'm encouraging women to claim power over men. Exactly how? By being able to take care of themselves?!!!! How is that claiming power OVER men?! You prove my point very well. People assume that a self-sufficient women is taking power AWAY from men. Alot of men believe this too. Truly sad.

In ways that are truly a partnership situation, yes, I believe you advocate the woman making it to be only her decision, thus taking power away from the man.<p>Pregnancy is a partnership - a woman cannot get pregnant without a man's contribution. And especially in marriage, the situation that first brought up this discussion, it should be a partnership decision. It is total selfishness for one to believe their values supercede the other simply because "It's her body". It's part of the man too. If ever there was a case for POJA, it is in this case. <p>If you fail to see that, then it is definitely best that you stay single, because you will never be able to participate fully in a partnership that requires some sacrifice of power on your part.

TS,<p>I don't know why I am doing this but: what the heck!<p>You said <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I don't despise men. I work with all men (I'm an engineer) and have many male friends. They are great people. If men don't like the rap they are getting, then they can do something about it. Hey, go volunteer at a rape crisis center, volunteer to teach a child how to read. Shoot, volunteer for anything. I've been doing volunteer work for years. The vast majority of people I see at these functions are WOMEN. Why is that? <hr></blockquote><p>Are you saying: "Some of my best friends are men?" [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>They aren't your friends, that much is truely sure, for you clearly view them with great distain. Actually, my biggest disagreement is teh 70%/30% number. It is not accurate. THe good news for you is that women are within less than 10% of having the same percentage of affairs as men. Doesn't that make you feel good?? And the number is closer to 50% not 70%. Heck, with a little help they will have achieved equality like women have done with lung cancer.<p>I will tell you this until you have lost a child or come close to losing one you have no idea what pain is. The pain of child birth doesn't match it, and my W will happily tell you that. Our son survived but the doctors had us literally give him a kiss goodbye before wheeling him into surgery. <p>By the way, ever blow out a knee, or seriously do an ankle, or rupture a disk in the back. That is pain so men do know about pain, what we don't know about knowing a child is part of us. It must be very special given all of the glorification you and other women give it.<p>As for the volunteer stuff you mentioned, someone must make a pay check for the W to volunteer or be like you and have no family to take care of. I will say this in the community I live in men are very active volunteers for the school reading programs. Why? They own their own companies. <p>My W was the homeroom mother for my youngest's 1 or 2nd grade class. All but one of the volunteers that came into do reading with the children were men. One guy gave her is: cell phone, car phone, home phone, company phone numbers and said call anytime I'll be there and he was.<p>You are confusing your data. They don't indicate intent, they indicate opportunity. It seems to me it is YOU that out of step with the times, men have moved on and your views of them have not. ON the other hand, I am not so sure we moved on, but that the modern world gives us different opportunities. Some guy supporting the family on an hourly wage is probably not going to take off time to read to 1st graders, but then again neither is a Mother who is supporting a family on an hourly wage.<p>I do find it interesting that you "bust our chops" over not doing enough, but feel that we don't or shouldn't care if a our W decides to terminate the live of a child. Interestingly, if the child she carries is killed in an automobile accident, the other driver can be charged with manslaughter.<p>I don't pretend to understand the thought processes that went on with some of our laws. But they aren't terribly consistent and probably won't be. So TS in your anger, and your drive to do it all yourself, stop and realize that women get what they want and continue to do so. They do in most families, and they have done so by resolutely stating what they want in public. Few if any have died for the causes such as sufferage (which many women had in many states before the "great" movement), etc.<p>Men in fact changed and I guess from your prespecitve for the better, I wonder if many men that women have changed for the better. AFter all they are cheating just as much as men or will very soon reach that august level of parity. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Finally, man cannot do anything about the "rap" they are getting from you. You will carry that "rap" no matter what happens, which is really all the more reason not to change further. You don't see men as individuals, so they can do nothing about your bigotry and stereotyping.<p>TS, I realize your background isn't the best, but woman as helpless victim with no say in things, and men as controlling tyrants is not a very accurate picture of how things really work.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

kayla,<p>ok, that is where you and I will disagree. Pregnancy is not a partnership, not physically at least. As long as babies grow in a woman's body, her needs will take precidence. This is why the anti-abortion movement has not succeeded in making abortion illegal. Without the woman, there is no baby, and any policies that discount the woman will ultimately fail. Let's see. They've tried guilt, warning of future regret, threats of going to hell, then when all that doesn't work, they try to convince her that a man will be there for her. Hmm. Well, for some reason, lots of women aren't buying it. Why is that? They're not all paranoid you know. Maybe, just maybe, men haven't been partners in raising children in the past. <p>You know, the first step in solving a problem is identifying it. Like I said, when enough women see men acting like partners, you will see women's behavior change. The alternative is to do what the Taliban did. Forceably strip women of any path to self-reliance so that she has no choice but to obey.