Ok...
...a tough topic.<p>Sheryl and FaitfulWife... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]
...no need to respond... I love you both... and for adults... it's their decision....
...although I think we are on different wavelengths on this one.<p>But for children...
...a summer vacation (week long)... at a nudist camp... it just won't fly!<p>My xW and her "boyfriend" (been together 2 1/2 years - not married) are members of a nudist camp(not far from where they live). It brings back bad memories of their EA... e-mails... on the topic of "freedom flannel".... yuck! The camp does allow minors... and...<p>I have found out that she wants to take the kids (10 y/o girl and 13 y/o boy) to the camp.<p>Again, as part of my vent here, it's NOT going to happen!<p>I contacted the camp and asked for what kind of parental consent is required...
...and they were kind enough to e-mail me back and tell me that I simply needed to provide them with my xW's name (her boyfriend's too), a copy of my divorce decree, and the Property Settlement Agreement (where it states their moral upbringing cannot be jeopardized.)<p>I do feel that this does fall into the category of their moral upbringing!
I do want to bring my children up with a healthy understanding of the beauty of the human body...
...but an understanding of the greater importance of a chaste youth in particular, and a chaste life in general.<p>Any concept of a chaste life, requires an understanding of how modesty is the first step in "respecting" each other as future sexual beings created by God. In my definition of chastity... it's with a deliberate attitude of abstinence before marriage... I feel that a nudist camp ( no matter how "adult" healthy it is)... is contrary to any degree of chastity.... especially for pubescent and pre-pubescent children.<p>My daughter (attractive for her age and just starting to blossom)...
...got the pamphlets in 4th grade health... (just last week!)... about the facts of puberty. Being an open dad, I offered to respond to any questions she may have... but she said she thought her mom knew more about.... yikes!<p>My son, shy boy that he is, would probably flip.<p>I'm not looking for anyone to change my mind...
...that won't happen!
Just a (rather infrequent) vent... from a veteran...
...in an unusual situation.<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Jim/NSR

Love you too... and AGREE with you.<p>If you think for ONE SECOND I would take my H's children with us - NO WAY. <p>Or my son? [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] Um, no.<p>I won't discuss the adult-only reasons, as I agree with you that we're on different wavelengths... but I do want you to know. I agree with you, and think you should be able to nip this one in the bud - legally, if necessary. <p>Okay?

Sheryl,<p>You are so good and kind!<p>Love (platonic... but very profound) to you!<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Jim

Back atcha, my friend! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

I'm not either of the parties from whom you are most interested in hearing but,......<p>I don't think so.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by NSR:
<strong>Sheryl and FaitfulWife... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]
...no need to respond... I love you both... and for adults... it's their decision....
...although I think we are on different wavelengths on this one.<p>Jim/NSR</strong><hr></blockquote><p>JIM! It's SO good to hear from you--even on this tricky subject!!<p>Just so WE are on the same wavelength, here is my opinion--since you don't want to hear it [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I think YOU are the parent and YOU should decide what is best for your children and their upbringing, and my opinion does not matter. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] You are absolutely correct--for adults, they make their own decisions--but for children, the adults in their life should decide for them!<p>There are two things though that I would like to just tell you:<p>1) Nudist camps are not sex clubs. There are usually EXTREMELY STRICT rules in place forbidding any kind of sexual behavior or inuendo or anything. The "theory" is to just carry on with normal life sans clothes. I'm not telling you this to change your mind...just kind of an FYI.<p>2) At this time your daughter seems to think that mom "knows more about sex" probably because mom is more open and uninhibited about talking about it. Okay--judgments about her living arrangements and affair aside (try to think from a 10yo's point of view here), mom isn't so shy and scared about talking about sex and being nude and all that, and you are! I love you, and you know I do, and I TOTALLY 100% respect your decision on how you want to raise your children, but this is not a great opinion for your daughter to be forming right now.<p>I TOTALLY understand that you want to raise your children in a godly way, and I am telling you, I respect that enormously. But part of godly married life is spiritual, committed sex. Right now, the only "info" your daughter is getting is from a person who did not so honorably maintain the faithfulness vows...and that is NOT the kind of sex info you want your daughter to be getting! The best...the ideal...would be if she were to be hearing from you about the blessing that a sexual relationship can be between two married, committed, godly people.<p>Jim, is this making any sense? If your daughter talks to mom because it's a girl/girl thing, that's one thing, but at this point it sounds like she might be thinking that mom has a better viewpoint on sex...and that's scary. <p>I know it is a difficult thing to talk sex to your children, but it needs to be done, and I don't mean, "If you have any questions you can ask me." No little girl is going to ask her dad, "My nipples are getting darker...are they supposed to do that??" TOO WIERD!! But being the mature, godly, adult man that you are, I think you could have a talk with her, in age appropriate detail, about the changes that are taking place--what to expect--when to ask questions--AND include the spiritual and responsible aspects of sex as well.<p>I remember the good old days too, Jim...the days when girls were 14, 15, and 16 before they "were visited by the monthly visitor" but those days are no more. Girls today are developing at 9yo and 10yo, and boys are getting girls pregnant at 14yo and 15yo because they were too embarrassed to "ask their parents a question." <p>Soooo...I support you 110% on not allowing your children to go to a nudist camp. They are your children and you have a duty to raise them as you believe! But I would lovingly encourage you to talk openly with both of your kids about sex and DEFINITELY include the godly aspect of it...I doubt if they will get that from any other source.<p>
CJ

Well, as usual, I'm throwing my two cents into the pot.<p>IMO, it is very detrimental to a child raised in this society to be exposed to something so out of the norm. Maybe in isolated tribes in South America where nudity is the everyday it would be different. But we usually wear clothing here and children aren't exposed to the adult body in such a way as to be comfortable with it. I think it would be very, very difficult for the kids to cope with this and could possibly scar them emotionally.<p>I would definitely do everything I could to prevent this from happening. And I do understand that nudist camps are not just big old orgies but it's still beyond the scope of coping for children. AND perverts can join, too, right? I mean they aren't tattoed anywhere saying "I'm a perv---keep yer clothes on."<p>I said all this just so I could ask (since YOU brought it up in the first post) what the hell is 'Freedom Flannel'?

Hi, sorry to butt in. I am female and my D is accustomed to me walking around the house in the nude - I always did so it is normal. But I would never ever take her to a nudist camp. I would not even go to a nudist camp. Nor is she exposed to my SO's nudity.<p>I fully agree with you - no no no.

Thank you all for your replies.<p>You are all caring and concerned people.<p>For franklymydears...
..."freedom flannel"... is sleeping in the buff...
...and I have no problem with that in and of itself...
...it's just that that was the first discussion my xW's OM starting e-mailing her on!
...that's why I said... "yuck"!
BTW: on hot nights... I to have and will sleep like that as well...
...but with the door closed.<p>...and FaithfulWife...
...I do believe I understand what you are saying.<p>...and just to be clear on it...
...it's not the "sex talk" that my daughter didn't want to discuss... it is the "change" in her body... that she wants to talk to her mom about. She was honest in saying that mom knows about "the female body"... more than any male...
...in terms of the physical aspects.<p>I have always made it know to both my children...
...what God has called sex for...
...afterall... as a 5th Grade CCD teacher... (a few years back... since I teach Confirmation class now)...
...I fully embraced the "family life" program at our church... and it you don't know what is covered in 5th grade... just think a little... and you can figure it out.<p>To discuss human sexuality / chasity(respect) / abstience / modesty / virignity... etc. from a christian perspective... a prespective of "virtue"... and not vice...
...is a bit challenging...
...but rewarding as well!<p>Having run the race in at least one relationship...
...a (perhaps non-)marriage...
...it has led me to deeply reflect on the moral aspects of love/marriage/sex and relationships in general.<p>It has gotten me ready for my son...
...and now my daughter as well.<p>Agape to all...<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Jim/NSR

[img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Jim, my heart goes out to you. I would be so distraught over this. I think I'd beg, borrow and steal to take them to court and try to put a stop to it!<p>WOW! I just can't imagine what you are going through. I'm so sorry.<p>ANNA

Hi Jim!!!<p>Wow. I completely agree with you, no if ands or buts would I let my kids go to a nudist camp - and geez, yours are just starting to experience sexuality!!!<p>It sounds like it may be time to visit your attorney again, better sooner than later [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I hope all is well with you otherwise.

Jim,<p>Good golly, Miss Molly!!!! NO WAY would I agree to this. Fight for what you believe is right. When your children become adults, they can decide such things for themselves.<p>NO WAY!! Desiree

<small>[ January 26, 2005, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>

AAAAAACCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!!<p>Absolutely not! We are a kind of naked family, running to the dining room table to find clean underwear... to the closet cause we forgot to grab a towel before showering.... nursing to toddlerhood while siblings are around .....<p>But no way, no how, no no no.<p>What was my point again?<p>ACK!
Elizabeth [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]