It has been 8 months since I have seen my kids. My XW has done everything in her power to poison my relationship with them. She has convinced them that I want nothing to do with them. She tells them that they do not have to visit if they don't want to. My two girls (15 & 18) do not want to visit but my son does. She refuses to let my son (17) visit alone. My e-mails and calls go unanswered.

We have been to court 6 times since our divorce was final 1/3/01 for various things. Mostly her trying to squeeze money from me. I have $6000+ in attorney fees so far. I always end up being the one made to pay. So far the courts have been no help. I get orders but she ignores them or interprets them to suit her own needs.

Why can't she get on with her life and let me see my kids? After all she has remarried and has a new baby.

I miss my kids terribly. I left her not them but she has made them believe that I left them too. Do I just wait until they are out from under her control and on their own? When they are able to think for themselves will they see what she has done and come around?

I have moved on in my life and have remarried. I guess I just needed to vent. This has been bothering me. Thanks for reading this.

wow...sounds like my situation. My EH won't let me see my son...has told him that I don't want to see him. Intercepts any messages on the telephone, mail to the home.. Son is 17. Old enough, the judge says, to make a call himself. How do you explain to the courts that these people have poisioned these children and the children need intensive counselling?

Sorry..wish I had more to say. As for court (try 42 times my friend...and it keeps going). A good book you may want to try is Divorce Casualties; preventing parental alienation by Douglas Darnell. It helps keep you connected to the kids when you are co-parenting with an idiot.

May I suggest you read the book "Divorce Poison" and act on it? Your kids are almost old enough to decide without your ex's control, but if you just wait around, it will be too late.

To All in this sit -

I am an "older" child of divorce - about 17 or 18.

I guess my mother was attempting to alienate my father. She said some nasty stuff, but at that age I knew a little better. BTW, there was NO infidelity in my parents divorce, that could have made a big difference.

However, maybe just me, I don't know. But at that age I had so much other stuff on my mind like parties, friends, dates, fun, my car,etc. My parents were the last people on my mind and socializing with them was not very cool.

But my Dad always made it clear he wanted to see me, even when I gave him five minutes of time. I did get mail from him and he did come by on weekends and would ask any of my three sisters and myself if we wanted to go out and eat. Sometimes none of us went, one of us, or all of us.

In college, sometimes he would just show up and again take me and friends out to eat or just drop in for 5 minutes and leave.

Now I'm in my forties, I see how much my Dad tried, always kept that door open, did all the work in the relationship. To visit me at school was a 3 hour drive and I had zero appreciation for that!

Now I've told him how sorry I am for being such a jerk. His response has always been "I am the adult, you are the child, and our relationship was my responsibility".

Ignore my Dad as I did, I ALWAYS knew he was there for me. When I needed him he was always quick to respond. Now, we are three thousand miles from each other. I now appreciate and love him very, vey much. We send long emails to each about every two weeks.

Don't ever give up with attempting contact, try to find some way. How about email? Even if kids don't reply or give you any time, they are young and don't know yet how precious you and time are. But they will always know, always, that you were there.

And, I'll take all of this back if one of my parents was an infidel. At my current age I understand what marriage and infidelity are about and I would choose NO contact with an infidel parent.

IS

I just want to make sure I'm not mixing up my posters - you were divorced in Jan '01 and were remarried in Dec '01 correct?

Do you live in the same town, general area, as your children?

Is there any history that you can think of that may be the cause of any issue between your children and you - without bringing your ex-wife into it?

I just think of when I was 17. I drove, had a car, and although there were things that I was allowed and not allowed to do.... well, I was 17.

There are pay phones at schools, stamps are somewhere under fifty cents, and I'm sure a buddy would lend him his cell or give him a ride to your house.

I'm really sorry that you don't see your kids, but for some reason I'm getting the feeling that there is a story behind this....

In order to keep a 17 year old almost man from making a visit your ex wife must be one heck of an eagle eye....

Maybe if you could explain more I'd understand, you don't owe me anything... but I've been a good ear & help around here once in a while.

E

Wow...these posts have really opened my eyes. Not that I haven't been trying....but I know what it's like to be alienated by a kid.

Our oldest is coming around. She's 19 and is realizing how controlling her father is. Our son (17) wrote me an email and told me point blank that if I don't give his father what he wants (matrimonial property not settled and the ex is telling him that *I* am dragging him to court continuously) that he won't ever see me again.

It's horrible. What do you tell the kids? My ex was abusive in all ways. Has continued to stalk me to the point where I had to move out of the city I was in (the police and he are *buddies* -- play hockey and the like and no possible way that *HE* would do anything like that). I have a restraining order and have tried to talk to my lawyer about seeing my son. I write him emails and it's like I am writing a blind person. No response...nothing.

I know it's important to keep in contact, but this has been going on for three years. For 20 years I begged and pleaded for my then-husband to pay attention to us. This is like a replay of that with my own son. I can't *buy* his love (which is what his father does)...and I have rules for my house (no porno, hacking on MY computer -- no beating up your little sister, no swearing -- participate as part of this family). I have been to parenting classes (How to deal with your acting up teen...) and have good boundaries surrounding my life.

I feel though as if I am *playing* this game of *making him pay attention to me*... Quite frankly I'm tired of it. Lately, my friends have been suggesting that I cut out all communication and wait until he comes around. They say he will wonder where my Monday morning emails are and why I haven't been attempting to get a hold of him.

I don't know...I'm just so very confused, hurt and in agony over this. The ex of course is thrilled that he's not choosing to keep in contact with me because it validates his sick feelings that I am so very wrong for leaving him (yes...leaving abusive behaviours, erratic moods from him, financial destitution, not to mention having to deal with all the women he slept with -- of course none of this he acknowledges).

I'm just tired is all...tired of all the poison that this man has inflicted not only on me, but our children.

This thing of exes using the kids makes me sick. My daughter's ex is a crackhead, but she has always encouraged him to visit their son....guess what...he hasn't seen his son in almost a year....by his own choice.

Here is a suggestion that I can make for you. Send cards and letters to your kids by certified mail, return receipt requested. If they're returned, keep them. At any rate, you'll have the receipts to show that you tried to communicate with them.

For older kids, I would consider taking out an ad in the local paper....big enough to be noticed...that says, "John, Jane, and Billy Doe, I love you and want to see and spend time with you very much. Please contact me whenever you want or need me. Love, Dad."

I'll bet they'll get the message that way!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When they are able to think for themselves will they see what she has done and come around?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have rarely seen such disrespect shown for someone's children. What do you mean, when they are able to think for themselves? Your youngest is 15, not 1! They can, and DO, think for themselves. If they wanted to see you, they would. I suppose it should be gratifying to think that some men believe that mothers have that much power over their teenagers' beliefs and actions, but it isn't true. I strongly suspect that there was an OW involved, and that is why your girls do not want anything to do with you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I left her not them but she has made them believe that I left them too.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course you left them too. And exactly how does one go about "making" one's teenager believe anything?

goldduster: I'm sorry you have to deal with all this. I know exactly how you feel not seeing your kids. It rips your insides out. I think you and I both got some good advice in here about how to maintain communication -- and bottom line, even attempting communication is a plus. Someone told me just this weekend to start a journal written to my son. I think I'll do just that. When he's old enough he'll be able to understand the dynamics of all this and KNOW that I didn't abandon him.

tmmx: I'm going to see if I can find that book here. I am willing to read anything or see anyone to keep my relationship open with my kids.

InShock: thank you so much for giving a picture of the other side and what it looks like from your perspective. You never said anything about your mom. Was she trying to keep you from your father? Good for dad....and gives me all the more reason to drive to pick up my son. *sigh*...what a bunch of crap to have to go through because another adult is poisioning his mind. But then...he poisioned mine too..and it took 20 years to finally realize that. :-(

justthewife: alienation is a very confusing concept. I too thought it would be so *easy* to see my kids. My ex has gone to incredible extremes. When I had to move from the city I lived in to protect myself, he actually called the telephone company and got my old telephone number. Letters and telephone calls are intercepted, and compile that with telling the child "your mother doesn't want to see you, she never calls, she does nothing. Oh sure...she'll say that she called you, but she's lying....just like she's always lied." So you can imagine the extremes I go to to *prove* that I call. During the school season, I send cards and letters to the school. I log all my telephone calls and I tape-record dad's voice. When I go to pick him up, he tells his father, and his dad invariably has him *busy* doing something. Transportation is not available as I live in another city. Difficult as it is to understand, when you are a teenager and are told by a parent who professes he loves you, that your mother doesn't care...and "see, she doesn't call, she doesn't come over" -- the kid really doesn't KNOW what to think. Rather than be doubly rejected, he sides with the father who is there for him at the time. It's hard to explain, but parents in my shoes totally understand... there are just some evil people out there, and I happened to make the mistake of marrying him.

LadyClueless: what a great idea! The ad in the paper! I think that's a wonderful suggestion! My ex too is not too swift, but I still encourage our child who lives with me to visit Dad. I'm sorry you have to deal with such a person in your life.

Nellie: I don't believe it's dis-respect...it's dis-BELIEF that the children can't see the outright abuse. I understand though, because it took me 20 years to see the abuse myself and the brainwashing. I can't expect my kids to see it any sooner. All I can do is be there for them. As for: "If they wanted to see you, they would" -- you are absolutely right. In time, when they figure out all the lies, they will be seeing him (and my son seeing me.) Hope things are well with you and your situation. I haven't been around her for a while. You still reconciling with your husband? Things going better for you?

Thanks all for your posts...even though not all directed to me...wonderful advice from some most caring people. Thanks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You've got to forgive me if I'm off...

I guess it's just a situation that is so completely against my nature...

You know the lengths I've personally gone to keep the kids and [censored] in daily communication...

I guess I just don't get it.

...you go to the same lengths I go to in keeping HIM posted about our youngest. I don't get the same from him when it comes to our son who lives with him. The oldest is pretty much on her own and has found out how much interference he's run between us.

I don't understand it...but it's extremely difficult to keep extending that damn olive branch to him for our youngest, when he won't do anything remotely close in reference to our son and communication with me. True...our son is 17 and he *can* make the choice whether or not to communicate with me -- but's it's pretty easy to walk away when you have a parent saying "yeah...she's not worth it, she doesn't care about you, she walked away from me...".

The problem that I have is the extreme abuse that I had in the marriage that the kids don't know about. I haven't bad-mouthed him, and during the marriage all the *bad* things were pretty much hidden... it was the financial abuse, rapes, his infidelities, etc.... I could never tell my children all the circumstances of our divorce. I wanted out of the abuse. There was NEVER anyone else (although Daddy Dearest told the kids there was). It's just a vicious circle that I am trying to get away from.

Part of the problem is...I allow myself to be in the situation by continuing to contact my son. Part of me wants to keep the communication up, but part of me just wants to walk away because over and over again I set myself up to be hurt. Don't know...but thanks. Appreciate your feedback.

These are teenagers we are talking about, not three year olds. Teenagers are not blind. Teenagers question EVERYTHING their parents say. Teenagers are cynical. If one parent forbid a teenager to see the other parent, most teenagers would go out of their way to make sure they saw the other parent, if for no other reason than because they don't want to be told what to do.
Teenagers are not generally very forgiving, and often they have developed strong beliefs in right and wrong. My girls have told me many times that I would be wrong to even consider taking their father back if the opportunity arose, because adultery is unforgivable. Period.

There is research that has been discussed previously, I believe on this board, indicating that there is no such thing as brainwashing, even in cases involving starvation or torture. If one parent says x, and the other says y, teenagers, just like other people, will decide for themselves which, if either, is true.

I think it is insulting to teenagers to imply that they are not capable of thinking for themselves, or of making value judgments.

Elan,

I think you must be confusing me with another poster.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by goldduster:
<strong>It has been 8 months since I have seen my kids. My XW has done everything in her power to poison my relationship with them. She has convinced them that I want nothing to do with them. She tells them that they do not have to visit if they don't want to. My two girls (15 & 18) do not want to visit but my son does. She refuses to let my son (17) visit alone. My e-mails and calls go unanswered.
WELCOME TO HELL - BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT YOUR EX WANTS LIFE TO BE FOR YOU - SHE SOUNDS SO MUCH LIKE MY EX IT'S CRAZY! YOUR KIDS (JUST LIKE MINE) HAVE BEEN BRAINWASHED BY YOUR EX. SAD TO SAY BUT TRUE. THE ONLY PEEPS HURT BY HER CONTINUING 'WAR' IS HER AND YOUR KIDS - SHE'S ONLY HURTING YOUR FEELINGS - SHE'S RUINING HER HEALTH BETTER THAN YOU EVER COULD - MENTALLY.

We have been to court 6 times since our divorce was final 1/3/01 for various things. Mostly her trying to squeeze money from me. I have $6000+ in attorney fees so far. I always end up being the one made to pay. So far the courts have been no help. I get orders but she ignores them or interprets them to suit her own needs.
COURTS COULD NOT CARE LESS FOR STRUGGLING FAMILIES AND INJUSTICES DONE - ALL THEY WANT IS TO 'MOVE THE CATTLE OUT' FOR THE NEXT ROUND OF LAWYERS AND FIGHTING FAMILIES.

Why can't she get on with her life and let me see my kids? After all she has remarried and has a new baby.
SHE WANTS TO PUNISH YOU FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE AND THIS IS HER WAY OF DOING IT

I miss my kids terribly. I left her not them but she has made them believe that I left them too. Do I just wait until they are out from under her control and on their own? When they are able to think for themselves will they see what she has done and come around?
THAT DEPENDS ON HOW EFFECTIVE HER BRAINWASHING TECHNIQUES HAVE BEEN. IF SHE'S LIKE MINE - AND SHE SURE SOUNDS LIKE IT - THEN YOUR KIDS ARE LOST TO YOU - BUT IT DEPENDS ON THEIR STRENGTH OF MIND AND ABILITY TO THINK FOR THEMSELVES. IT COULD ALSO BE THAT THEY ARE AFRAID OF THEIR MOTHER. WAS YOUR EX A VERY CONTROLLING PERSON A.K.A. 'CONTROL FREAK'? WHEN THEY BECOME OF LEGAL AGE AND LEAVE HER HOUSE - THEY COULD VERY WELL COME LOOKING FOR YOU. LOTS OF PRAYER IS NEEDED. ALSO I'M SURE YOUR EX SLAMS YOU IN FRONT OF THEM EVERY SINGLE CHANCE SHE GETS.
I have moved on in my life and have remarried. I guess I just needed to vent. This has been bothering me. Thanks for reading this.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MAY GOD BLESS YOU, AND YOUR CHILDREN.
PS - Your Ex's name wouldn't happen to be "Tracy" would it??? LOL

Nellie1,

I am not here to argue with you about what is happening in my family. The courts, professionals and educators have validated the parental alienation -- which includes the fact that the children are in fear of going against their father. I am here for support just like everyone else.

Parental Alienation IS a valid diagnosis, as is abuse. Just because you don't believe it affects teenagers, or that it exists, does not discount that it actually exists in the world.

I do however, value your opinion, but it does not mean that I have to agree with it. I also understand that people who have not experienced parental alienation in their own families have great difficulty understanding it. I have great difficulty understanding that alcoholism is a disease, because I have never dealt with it. I choose not to argue with anyone dealing with it, because quite frankly I am not dealing with the same issues, therefore find it difficult to offer sound advice.

As for confusing you with another poster -- no. I honestly asked how you were doing and how things were going on in your life. I was here last year when you were going through a great deal of turmoil in your life. Hope everything is better for you.

God Bless... and thanks for your input.

Wow! There are some pretty strong opinions out there about this. I appreciate all of your comments. I like the newspaper ad idea. Maybe the school paper.

Here is a little more information.

The ex absolutely refuses to communicate with me in anyway except in front of a judge. Because of this I am forced to seek court orders to try and protect my rights. When she is served the papers the first thing that she does is show the kids and tell them that I am draging her back to court.

One time it was because I was paying $650 per month in alimony expressly for her to go to school. I found out that she was not going. I took her to court to get the alimony terminated.
In this instance she used my youngest daughter as a spy. My daughter had found the information that I had compiled for my attorney about the ex's lack of schooling and reported it to her mother.

Another time her new spouse called and left a death threat on my voice mail. (Yes, a recording of his voice. He is not the brightest bulb in the string.) He also threatened my attorney through his office staff. We ended up getting a protection order against him.

She has repeatedly removed my name from the school contact information for all three kids. Every couple of months I have to go up to the school and straighten it out so that I can at least get a copy of their grades.

She has told them that they would be better off if I was dead. My son told me that she said this.

She has told the kids that it is totally my responsibility to keep any relationship with them going. That they do not have to call or come see me if they don't want to.

She has always had control over them. Until I moved out they were never left alone in the house. They never had a baby sitter other than her mother and we had to drive 40 miles to have her do that.

She tried homeschooling them and that was a total failure because all they did was play. Which incidently is costing me an extra year of support for each of them.

She will not allow my son to get a job even though he wants one.

She has screwed them up so bad socially that I doubt that they will be able to function as adults for quite some time if ever. They have no concept of what money is and how to properly use it. They think that it is just something to ask dad for.

She has convinced them that I have more money than I know what to do with and they are about to lose their house because of me. Never mind that she blew all of the money that she got from my 401k on a trip to Dizzyland and clothes for herself. Instead of paying the bills.

Thanks for reading this.

Justthewife-Yes I remarried in Dec 01. But the D was started in 8/97 so it is not as quick after as you might be thinking. I live about 1/2 mile from the ex and kids.

InShock - I can only hope that someday my kids will feel the same way that you do about your dad.

Nellie1 - Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I don't have to agree with you.

<small>[ August 19, 2002, 10:21 PM: Message edited by: goldduster ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by goldduster:
<strong>Wow! There are some pretty strong opinions out there about this. I appreciate all of your comments. I like the newspaper ad idea. Maybe the school paper.
I AGREE - MY QUESTION IS... DO THEY READ THE PAPER?

Here is a little more information.

The ex absolutely refuses to communicate with me in anyway except in front of a judge. Because of this I am forced to seek court orders to try and protect my rights. When she is served the papers the first thing that she does is show the kids and tell them that I am draging her back to court.
TYPICAL LIES... IT'S REALLY QUITE EFFECTIVE IN HER BRAINWASHING SCHEME... THE RUSSIANS USED TO CALL IT 'DISINFORMATION'

One time it was because I was paying $650 per month in alimony expressly for her to go to school. I found out that she was not going. I took her to court to get the alimony terminated.
In this instance she used my youngest daughter as a spy. My daughter had found the information that I had compiled for my attorney about the ex's lack of schooling and reported it to her mother.
SOUNDS LIKE MY KIDS - SHE USED TO LET THEM COME VISIT ME ONCE A WEEK (WASN'T THAT SO NICE OF HER?) BEFORE I MOVED OUT OF STATE. MY KIDS WOULD LISTEN IN ON MY FEW PHONE CONVERSATIONS (THEN REPORT BACK TO MOM), AND WHEN THEIR MOTHER ASKED THEM TO - THEY TOOK SOME OF MY HOME CAM TAPES FROM MY APARTMENT - I NEVER NOTICED THE TAPES WERE GONE UNTIL AFTER I HAD MOVED OUT OF STATE.

Another time her new spouse called and left a death threat on my voice mail. (Yes, a recording of his voice. He is not the brightest bulb in the string.) He also threatened my attorney through his office staff. We ended up getting a protection order against him.
DEATH THREATS ARE THEIR WISHES VOICED - MY EX TOLD ME AFTER WE GOT DIVORCED THAT IF "YOU EVER DO ANYTHING TO HARM MY KIDS, I'LL TRACK YOU DOWN AND KILL YOU". SUCH KIND WORDS FROM ONE WHO USED TO LOVE ME... SHE ALSO PLACED A STANDING ARREST ORDER AGAINST ME 'IF I EVER SET FOOT ON HER PROPERTY AGAIN' KNOWING THAT I WAS LEAVING ALASKA THE NEXT DAY...

She has repeatedly removed my name from the school contact information for all three kids. Every couple of months I have to go up to the school and straighten it out so that I can at least get a copy of their grades.
AN OLD KGB TRICK - REMOVE/ELIMINATE CONTACTS. MY EX HAS DONE AN EXCELLENT JOB OF CENSORING ALL INCOMING MAIL AND CHANGING HER PHONE NUMBER TO AN UNLISTED UNPUBLISHED NUMBER, ANSWERS THE PHONE, AND CHANGED ALL EMAIL ADDRESSES.

She has told them that they would be better off if I was dead. My son told me that she said this.
WISHFUL THINKING?

She has told the kids that it is totally my responsibility to keep any relationship with them going. That they do not have to call or come see me if they don't want to.
HITLER WAS ALSO VERY GOOD AT STRETCHING THE TRUTH AND THEN BLAMING HIS ENEMIES FOR THE MISERY HE CAUSED THE GERMAN PEOPLE.

She has always had control over them. Until I moved out they were never left alone in the house. They never had a baby sitter other than her mother and we had to drive 40 miles to have her do that.
NOTHING LIKE HAVING A CONTROL FREAK AROUND, IS THERE? IF YOU TRY TO SUGGEST ANYTHING THAT WOULD BE MUCH EASIER OR MAKES MORE SENSE - THEN YOU GET ACCUSED (AS USUAL) OF 'DISRESPECTING' HER.

She tried homeschooling them and that was a total failure because all they did was play. Which incidently is costing me an extra year of support for each of them.
HEY, IT'S HIS MONEY - IT'S NOT COSTING HER ANYTHING TO PLAY AROUND WITH CHILDREN'S FUTURES LIKE A GAME.

She will not allow my son to get a job even though he wants one.
CAN YOU SAY 'CONTROL FREAK'?

She has screwed them up so bad socially that I doubt that they will be able to function as adults for quite some time if ever. They have no concept of what money is and how to properly use it. They think that it is just something to ask dad for.
HA! MY OWN KID ASKED ME ONCE WHEN WE WERE OUT OF MONEY AS USUAL (BEFORE WE DIVORCED) 'DAD, WHY DON'T YOU JUST GO DOWN TO THE ATM AND GET MORE MONEY, YOU ALWAYS GET MONEY EVERY TIME WE GO THERE!' YEP, ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE OF WHAT MONEY IS OR WHERE IT COMES FROM...

She has convinced them that I have more money than I know what to do with and they are about to lose their house because of me. Never mind that she blew all of the money that she got from my 401k on a trip to Dizzyland and clothes for herself. Instead of paying the bills.
CONTROL FREAKS ARE TOTALLY UNABLE TO ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR ACTIONS - IT'S MUCH EASIER TO JUST BLAME IT ALL ON 'DAD' - AFTER ALL - HE LEFT US, YADDA YADDA YADDA...
DIG THIS - MY CHILD SUPPORT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE $427 A MONTH, BUT SINCE I'M A DISABLED VETERAN, SSI PAYS HER $550 A MONTH IN PAYMENTS. SHE TELLS EVERYONE IN HER FAMILY AND MY FAMILY THAT "HAROLD DOES NOT PAY ONE DIME CHILD SUPPORT TO ME AND I JUST CAN'T MAKE IT" (I HAVEN'T FIGURED OUT HER LINE OF REASONING ON THAT ONE...)

Thanks for reading this.

Justthewife-Yes I remarried in Dec 01. But the D was started in 8/97 so it is not as quick after as you might be thinking. I live about 1/2 mile from the ex and kids.
THANK GOD I MOVED TO TEXAS - IT'S SOMETHING LIKE 3,000 MILES AWAY FROM ALASKA. HAD I STAYED IN ALASKA SHE WOULD HAVE HAD ME JAILED FOR A DEBT JUDGEMENT ON CHILD SUPPORT...

InShock - I can only hope that someday my kids will feel the same way that you do about your dad.

Nellie1 - Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I don't have to agree with you.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">God bless you. I'm not 'screaming' when I use all caps to post my comments via quote - I just haven't learned yet how to respond like I've seen some other Posters do.
Take care, and Good Luck!
Harold
(Keepin' the Peace)

OK, I'm on the different side of the loop here. My STBX and his attorney have accused me of parental alienation. My kids are 15 and 11. There are multiple phones in the house, even two lines if need be. His phone number, cell phone, and work number are written in the address book. The kids requested that their father not call them, he was originally court ordered to have phone contact only on Tuesday and Thursday nights (no physical contact because of abuse) and he didn't even call a lot of the time. He caused enough anguish that he was dropped to one night a week.

One daughter never has to see him again if she doesn't want to, the other had to see him in counseling and then had brief 2 hour visits once a month. Once it was increased to 4 hour visits his true colors once again showed and he further alienated the kids by his own actions.

I studied parental alienation when I was accused of doing it. There are many who believe it isn't a real phenomenon, others who say it is. The ages of the children you are talking about make it seem implausible. I can see with younger kids who don't understand phones, computers, etc, but an older child can find a way to contact people if they want to.

I laugh when someone says that I can control who my 15 year old is in contact with. With phone and computer access, she has the capability of talking with just about anyone from anywhere. My STBX is about the last person on earth I would ever expect her to get in touch with. That is HER choice. The 11 year old called her father about 3 times when he first left, it was usually to remind him that he had forgotten to come get her for an activity he had set up with her. Probably after the first 2 months, she never called him again in 2 years, and she dreads the Thursday night calls. Me... I'm doing parental alienation at those calls? Not likely, I am at the Domestic Violence support group meeting trying to learn to set boundaries and make life better for my children and I.

Parental Alienation Syndrome is an awful thing... but the ages of your children make it unlikely. Unfortunately, PAS is used by some people to gain control over a situation. There has been cases where an abusive parent claims PAS against the other and then gets custody of the children. Divorce is ugly in any form, but some people make it uglier than it needs to be. Also, one will never find accountability or justice in a divorce court. It is all just about splitting up two people and trying to value everything to make an equal monetary split.

Children have a tendency to come round and see the whole picture. I was amazed at the sensibility and insight my then 9 year old had. They were the ones who saw the whole picture. Maybe down the road they will want to see their father again...

Maybe your children just need "time out". Maybe they haven't had the chance to grieve, to assimulate all their feelings about what happened. I know there are days I still feel like I want to curl up and not have to deal with anything. Emotions can sometimes take time to sort out. You've been given some great ideas on how to keep contact without being too forceful about it. try a new approach.

I am so glad that I started posted again. Finally...support from others dealing with the SAME kinda crud that I deal with!

Yes...there is a fine line when it comes to parental alienation. It's tough...and almost impossible to deal with. So many times I want to throw in the towel and not communicate with my child living with him..but then part of me goes into this *save the soul* act and continue to communicate. It's just horrible!

The hardest is hearing the same abusive words come out of my son's mouth, that I heard for all those years come out of his father's mouth. How could we have done this to our children? (and yes...before you answer...I know the answer -- we did what we did with what we knew at the time -- now we know different).

Tmmx suggested reading the book "Divorce Poison". If anything it might give us some new approaches to the alienators.

Goldduster and LuvDatBaby ...thanks for your posts. It's comforting (although I hear the pain also) to hear that someone else is going through the same struggles that I am.

Bangarra... I hear what you are saying also. I have a child living with me that doesn't want to communicate with her father. She is now *using* her dad to *buy* her things. That's the only reason why she wants to get together with him. It's hard to keep encouraging her to keep in touch with her dad. Unfortunately he turns her *efforts* into: "See....she really wants to be with ME.....she is just barely strugging to live with her mother.... she calls ME so I can buy her stuff because her *mother* won't do it... " (you get the pic... lol)

Our oldest one is 19 and out of his house most of the time. So much history through this divorce...and it's still going on. There's no way I could update...(hard enough for a lawyer to wrap his head around all the dynamics). She's doing well and is realizing more and more the control issues and brainwashing. She is starting to hear *both* sides now instead of one. She asks the questions and I answer. I don't volunteer information. It's hard....but the wait was well worth it. Painful...very painful (I was not *allowed* to attend her grade 12 graduation because Daddy and new girlfriend would be *uncomfortable*)

Yep....life goes on.

<small>[ August 21, 2002, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: MovingOn ]</small>

Sheesh MovingOn! I missed your post...

but...everyone else.. I just picked up the book Divorce Poison by Warshack.

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU tmmx! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I'm working through it and starting new...I am NOT going to let that [censored] do this to our children!