I feel I need some help. I've posted before but it's been awhile because I thought I was doing okay but I guess I'm not. My divorce has been final for 7 months now. I gave my XH a divorce because he asked me for it. I didn't think I had any choice but to give it to him. We had previously been separated for a year. During that time he continued his affair.

Anyway, ever since the divorce I can honestly say I haven't been a very nice XW to him. I jab whenever I get the chance & make fun of his situation. By his situation I mean, after we had our 2nd daughter he got a vasectomy so we wouldn't have anymore kids. Well, his new woman has 5 daughters, ages 4 to 18. Anyway, unfortunately, I haven't been very nice to him. I really don't know what I felt I had to gain by being cruel to him. I guess I wanted to make him hurt in some way and I had nothing to lose by it because I knew he was going to stay w/ this other woman no matter what. See he told me that he wanted to continue being friends after the divorce and I was stupid enough to think that I could actually do that. WRONG!!!!

He currently lives w/ his brother and only sees his girlfriend when she doesn't have her 3 youngest girls. Her 2 oldest are always at home because their dads don't see them. If he and she both have the kids then they do things together.

A couple months ago I talked w/ him and told him that I just couldn't be friends with him because certain things still hurt me and I knew I wasn't nice to him which was not good for him either. He said okay so we didn't talk to one another for about a week and then he called me out of the blue to ask me something but I think it was just a way for him to carry on a conversation with me.

Last night my daughter came & told me that my XH was going to be moving in w/ the OW according to one of her daughters. Needless to say, my heart dropped to my feet. But I just told my daughter it was okay.

Just then my XH stopped by to bring them their school supplies and I asked him if it was true about him moving in w/ the OW and he told me that he had discussed it with her last week but that nothing had been decided. We started a deep conversation which resulted in a big fight. During the course of the argument he told me that he had never quit loving me and the only reason he had asked me for a divorce was because he thought it would give me "the I don't care attitude and quit barking at him". But I kept harping on him and trying to make him miserable and all that did was made her look more appealing to him instead of listening to me ***** him out. And now I've pushed him into moving in w/ her. So he says. I think he's just looking for an excuse and of course I am the culprit. Then stupid me started crying and told him to stay the "*(^% away from me and I had nothing more to ever say to him unless it concerned the girls. I also told him that he can't just drop by anytime he feels like it anymore either. (Of course, that will all end anyway once he's moved in with her). She'll make sure of that. He gave me the impression he doesn't think he's going to have to be responsible for her kids at all and he will be able to come & go from her home anytime he feels like it. Okay. (Yah, right)

I told him that I had been thinking of moving out of town which is only about 2 1/2 hrs. away and he would see the kids every other weekend still because we could meet half way. I want to go back to school and that's why I was thinking of doing this. He replied, "you're just doing this to punish me." My gosh, why would I not want to be out of the area if it's going to keep me from running into either one of them.

Please tell me that I am not the crazy, psycho b&*^% I feel that I am. I feel so empty & lonely today not to mention full of guilt. I guess I hadn't realized how bad I was making him feel by saying the things that I did to him. I feel like I've taken 3 steps back. By the time that we finished arguing I feel we were both honest about a lot of things but at the same time pretty hurtful. So I came in and cried myself to sleep. I hardly slept at all. Then this morning he called our girls at 7am to say "good morning" to them like he does every day but they were still asleep. I answered and he talked to me like nothing ever happened. He told me to have a good day and he would talk to us later. I was too asleep to say anything back.

See, he's done things like this all along. We fight and then the next day to him it's like nothing ever happened. While I dwell on everything. I don't think I'm strong enough to ever really forgive him. I've always thought of myself as a good Christian person and love to help people any which way that I can. But for some reason I just cannot get over all of this.

I guess what I want to know is does anybody else feel like they are psycho? That's how I feel. I feel I need some special help or something because counseling doesn't seem to be helping my feeling of resentment.

Does anybody out there feel like I feel though? In a way I think that him moving in with her will be a good thing because then he's going to have to be with her kids and her 24/7 and not be able to get away from them like he does now.

I welcome anybody's thoughts, opinions, or remarks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Dopey -
First off - welcome! I'm not that seasoned of a marriage builder, but here it goes:

Girl, you've got to begin forgiving yourself and start taking care of you - dopey. No one FORCES anyone into anything. Your husband just wants someone to blame for his infidelity.

Something I'm really proud of myself for doing since my STBXH and I separated is not love busting. In other words, I quit yelling at him, I quit being bitter, etc. and started doing things for me - taking care of myself.

My STBXH is being a BIG JERK right now, but I'm not letting him get to me. He wants to push my buttons, but I'm not letting it bother me anymore. His mean-ness actually shows me that I could not continue living a life like that.

Have you seen a counselor or therapist? I think if it wasn't for my therapist and a few really close pals, I would not be as healthy as I am now. Don't get me wrong, I'm still sad that I'm getting a divorce. I'm sad and sorry for the things that I did that contributed to our marriage problems. However, infidelity is a CHOICE. I didn't push him into anything.

I read this quote here somewhere and loved it enough that I have it posted at home and at my office.

"Anyone who believes that happiness is anything but a choice, or that it can be bestowed or destroyed by another, is denying their own inner power and missing the opportunity to walk in the sunshine."

Good luck to you - you are a strong woman, you can DO IT!!!!!!

Hugs,
Llama

Ruby - where have you been???? Please email me you sound like you need a friend - if you cannot email me from home I will check in tonite on this post and write back - I am on my way out the door - but I am so bummed that you are upset now.... My gosh you could have wrote and you are not a b*tch - this is not your fault - I will write back later or email me.... Mimi

Honestly, It doesn't sound like he really WANTS to move in with her..but he doesn't like the two of you fighting either..

You say you've always considered yourself a good
christian helping others..and what-not..

but what else does being a 'good' christian mean to you? Does it mean we forgive? To forgive doesn't mean we forget..it just means we forgive..
we don't hold something over another persons head any longer..they no longer 'owe' us a debt for the wrong done..just like for our own sins..

When we confess and ask God to forgive us and we repent from our sins..He does..and we don't owe Him payment for that sin..we no longer carry the burden of that sin..because it was paid in full by the blood of Jesus..just as God has forgiven you for your own wrong doings..your own sins..He can forgive your husband his..

Forgiving doesn't mean that we no longer feel the hurt that was caused..but God can heal those hurts if you let Him..He can even heal the relationship if you both let Him..even reconcilling a workable friendship..one that brings you both peace..something you don't have yet..

As humans..we tend to put sin into categories of one being worse than another..murder is worse than adultry, adultry is worse than lies, lies are worse than stealing a piece of candy from the
store, and stealing candy is worse than fighting with a friend..but in God's eyes' they are all the same..SIN, THEY all break our relationship with Him..He doesn't put them into categories...
He looks at all sin the same..and He forgives all sin the same when asked..

Your angry words to your husband..hurt him just as much as his leaving the marriage hurts you..and both hurt your children..

Are you wrong for feeling hurt and angry? NO!!! You are not wrong for what you feel..but what you both need to try and do is learn to handle those feelings more appropriately..when you feel hurt and you start wanting to yell and fight..stop and walk away...allow yourself time to calm down until you can express your hurts without yelling..
and name calling..

It may also be that he's wanting to make you made so that he doesn't have to feel those things for himself..if after you argue he feels better and you feel worse..then he's probably wanting to make you angry..and hurt you so that he doesn't feel those things himself..He said you want to hurt him..in response to that you could say..

"I'm sorry that you feel as if I am trying to hurt you, that is not the case, but I do feel I need to move away because seeing you and her together hurts me..so in order to protect myself from hurting..this is something I need to do"

This allows you to claim your hurt..and places his own hurt feelings on himself..making him responsible for his own feelings..and you aren't taking the blame for them..they are his feelings and God gave them to him to feel..not for you to take responsibility for..

have you read the book Boundaries?? if not I'd recommend it..it will help you understand this more fully..

and in answer to your question..no, your not the b**** he feels you are..

Ruby - OK I am back now - I cannot believe that he is still making you feel like this. It was his choice to have the affair, it was his choice to get a divorce and it is his choice to be with her - you are not a physco b*tch you are hurt - You are trying to be on friendly terms but you keep running into her and or him and I know that because you have told me - and I know how that feels. You cannot make him move in with her - just like you did not make him have the affair and you know that. I am still dealing with the stbxh thats wants to be my friend but for some reason I am beginning to feel stronger and I am slowly pulling away and becoming more independent and I am ok - but you know those days like you are in now really suck. Maybe moving away would be good for you and the girls because you see the two of them together all of the time or you have to talk to her only. I would love to hear from you - Smile tomorrow is another day - mimiw64@yahoo.com try to email me from work...

Dopey,

You're not wrong to be feeling what you are.
Whether or not your spouse was the unfaithful one, infidelity stems from unhappiness, and "fault", if you like, on both sides.(IMHO)

The things your spouse expresses to you, are his genuine feelings re your marriage, and the problems he has with you & your behaviour. Likewise, I'm sure, you also have a stack of complaints against HIM, hence the verbal attacks or constant nagging ( HIS perception). Indulging in "love-busting" does not help, you yourself can see this.

My Ex was also the WS, and I always understood exactly what it was in me, that may have contributed to her decision to wander off the path, and seek emotional comfort elsewhere. This does not make us responsible for their behaviour, but only serves to make us grow, & move on quicker, and helps us to forgive them more easily.

So don't worry about feeling a bit "responsible", it's natural for an honest person, which is apparently what you are. It's strange how many people cannot be honest with themselves, even when there is no-one else around to impress. OF COURSE it was your STBX's decision to be adulterous. This is a weakness & personal failing of hisown, for which HE HAS to be accountable.

I have on numerous occasions told my EX how I feel about letting her down so badly in our marriage. It helped heal the hurt between us, and freed me from the captivity of the guilt I felt. I can highly recommend it.

Whatever else happens from now on in your STBX's life, should not concern you too much. Your own future is more important. I valued very much the friendship with my ex, ( we started as friends), and also the the close bond we now STILL share. That will never go away. It causes me pain when I see her falter because she has not completely dealt with her guilt, but I cannot live her life, not hand-hold her emotionally. I'm learning to deal with this.

Much strength to you.
Muzohead

Married 14 yrs
Divorced 2 months
Temp seperation 1 YR ago ( 2 months )
Separated 8 months
D-day: >2yrs ago

Children: 10yrs & 13yrs ( boys)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I told him that I had been thinking of moving out of town which is only about 2 1/2 hrs. away and he would see the kids every other weekend still because we could meet half way. I want to go back to school and that's why I was thinking of doing this. He replied, "you're just doing this to punish me." My gosh, why would I not want to be out of the area if it's going to keep me from running into either one of them.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi dopey. Gee, ya think you could think up a more positive screen name? It may be the way you feel now, but it won't be when you travel a path to recovery for a while.

The paragraph in quotes above is what really got my attention in your post. I just finished reading Patricia Evans' "Controlling People." She talks about ways people seem to think they can get inside another person's head and see for themselves what that person is thinking or feeling. She recommends that a person respond by treating the statement as nonsense. Engaging in a conversation where you try to convince him that you're not motivated by punishing him is a waste of effort. That would simply validate his irrational notion that he knows your thoughts and feelings better than you do. My stbx has a longstanding pattern of "informing" me what my thoughts and feelings are. I used to twist myself into a pretzel trying to convey MY thoughts and feelings. I finally got smart and realized it was a waste of my breath and brain cells.

My circumstances are totally different than yours, but I also spent an ample amount of time in "LB land." I was hurt, I felt like I wasn't being heard, and I fell into a downward spiral of LBs to try and make my H understand how hurt I was. That too was a waste of breath and brain cells!

My suggestion to you is to do an inventory of sorts on yourself. Ask yourself if your behavior is the way you really want to be. Shift your focus toward the future, and think about the kinds of people you want to attract into your life. Are they going to be attracted to a crazy psycho woman? Not! It might seem to be the only way for your words to reach him (that was my rationale anyway when I was LBing constantly), but the truth might be that your words aren't going to reach him no matter what you say or do. For him to say that you are responsible for pushing him into living with OW is simply nonsense. HE is responsible for his decisions and actions. I have an imaginary armor made out of teflon that I wear mentally during exchanges with my stbx. It helps the pain and the nonsense roll off.

I second the recommendation that you read boundary books by Townsend and Cloud. I would also recommend "Bold Love" by ... Allender (?). Allender's book is a bit of a "slogger", not the easiest thing to work through, but it was just what I needed at the time I read it. It talks about the importance of forgiveness, but it also gives poignant reminders of the need to rebuke inappropriate behavior when it happens. Equally important, he amply describes how forgiveness and the path to reconciliation are NOT synonymous. Without repentance, reconciliation is truly not an option. A lack of repentance in his part, however, is not a barricade to your forgiveness of his behavior. I never spent much thought on the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation before reading that book. I had a blurry notion, I suppose, that they went hand in hand. What a relief some education brought me! D, I encourage you to pursue your education too, in whatever form is necessary. It will shift your focus away from him and onto yourself, your children's welfare, and your future.

Your story echoes mine and for that I feel for you. I understand being confused, thinking that everything he does he is doing because of you and that you led him to do this, that and everything else.

He probably does still "love" you, but it isn't love. It's an addiction to chaos. At least that is what I have been told. It's not your fault he did anything. Although it's hard because you probably can't quit arguing and if you are like me than sometimes you have nothing better to do but argue. Maybe you are not like me, but I felt very close to your situation. The best advice is to just not talk to him, only discuss the children, hang up if it becomes anything else. once again, if you are like me than you will ignore this advice, but it's here anyway.

Dopey,

Your ex is playing the "blame game". NO ONE, NO ONE, can make him choose where he will live...if he doesn't want to live with this woman, then he can choose not too.

He may choose not to be around you, and that's his choice, but to say your attitude forced him to move in with someone else is just ridiculous.

So what should you do now? The answer is to start changing yourself. Become happy, with or without him. Stop taking stabs at him, and start plan A'ing yourself.

Here's what I think will happen. He will move in with other woman...you will be nice so he can't blame you for his problems, he will see that he still has problems...he'll probably then blame other woman, but you will out of the blame picture...

Then, he'll probably want you back, but I'm hoping by that time, you will truly be happy and see he's not that great of a catch and you will then tell him to go take a flying leap out the window.

It's my lunch, I gotta go, take care,

ANNA

Ok Ruby where are you ??? I am worried about you - you haven't replied to anyone please email me or post back here - I hope things are getting better Mimi

Great, I finally get a minute to sit and read all my MB friend's words of wisdom. I've been working part-time in the evenings and haven't had a chance to read before this.

Llama: I wish I could say the same and be proud of myself for not LBing. That's definitely something I have never been good at. But you're right. I decided this past week that I am going to get stronger, do my best to ignore him and work on MYSELF. I've started jogging, dieting, and doing things for me. As well as checking into going back to finish my bachelor's degree. Oh, yes, I printed your quote and posted it on my refrigerator and at work in my office. Thank you.

Thorned Rose: I know what you're saying. I've always tried to be a good person and I've even counseled w/ our pastor and know that I need to forgive. Gosh, I know in my mind I have to truly FORGIVE him and I keep asking myself, "why is this so difficult for me". I think it's because never in a million years did I ever think that he would actually stay w/ this woman. But I also know that people fall out of love and in love w/ others and even with that I need to forgive him. I know, at first I was doing what you said "comparing sins". Then I got to telling myself, "God does not compare sins. There is not one worse than the other." Duh. But I like the reminder you gave me regarding God and his forgiving us for our sins. I need to remember that. It's so easy not to think about it when you're hurting.

You sound like someone with a world of wisdom. I am going to be a good Christian and forgive. You're right. Our 2 daughters get hurt in the end and I don't want that. So I am going to stop trying to hurt him and FORGIVE for all our benefits. Eventually, maybe someday we can be friends for the benefit of our kids. Thank you Thorned Rose. I needed to hear what you said.

Wow, Muzohead. I wish I could have been more like you and realizing that yes, we are both at fault for whatever was lacking in our marriage. It's wonderful that you could admit that to your wife. It's always easier to see what the other spouse did wrong than it is to see our faults and especially to admit them to the spouse. I know I had faults but I guess what has upset me so much was how can a woman w/ 5 daughters and been married 5 times make him so happy and in love as he supposedly is w/ her? I guess I just have to stop dwelling on it or I will die wondering. Thank you Muzohead for your words of wisdom.

I will definitely look into buying the boundary books you recommend Lonesome Heart. You would think by now I would have moved on and just been able to quit my LBing. But I am the same way because whenever we converse a lot of times it ends up escalating where I put him down because I can't get my point across to him. You so badly just want them to understand but you can talk until you're blue in the face and it doesn't help. He says that's the way I am. I also will wear the armor of teflon from here on out. I'm eager to start reading the books recommended to me from everyone. Thanks.

Rainefall: Yes, I've argued a lot. But the thing is I always feel WORSE afterwards. But that's what I'm going to do is start talking to him only if it concerns the girls and nothing else. Actually, that's the way I've been the past couple of days with him. I think I've said a total of 30 words in the past 3 days. As much as I miss talking as friends it's so much easier on my nerves not to talk at all.

It's funny that you bring up "chaos". One of my friends told me that some people thrive on "chaos" and she thinks that by us arguing it makes him feel better. So thanks for mentioning it because I had never heard it from anyone else.

Anna2000: Taking care of myself is exactly what I have planned now. I am planning on going back to school and I've started dieting and jogging. I know I could stand to lose a few pounds in order to feel better about myself.

And I hope you're right about him coming back to me someday after realizing that he's made a mistake because I would love nothing more than to have the strength to tell him to go take a "flying leap".

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

OK Ruby whats up ??? You didn't reply back to me - I have been waiting for like a month or so for you to email from work - last I knew you screwed up sending it and you were getting yours shut off at home and your old address didn't work anymore??? What gives?? How come you ignored me??? Mimi

dopey:

So many people think forgiving is hard to do..and it is..when we keep looking at the hurt we feel inside..we don't want to forgive them..because we think if we forgive..we have to forget what they did..and that is so far from the truth..we need to recognize what they did that caused the hurt..
so that we can steer away from those behaviors in the future--as we learn what hurts us..we tend to steer clear of those situations..so it's okay to not forget..but, on the same token..we don't keep
reminding them of their faults..and what they did to hurt us..because this condemns them..and that is not our job..God is the only one with the right to condemn us for our sins..because ALL the rest of us..SIN..

another thing I have learned through all this mess about myself is that the more condemned I feel..the more judged I felt for things I did wrong, the more others keep telling me all the things I've ever done wrong..and constantly nagging or harping on them, living in constant reminder of all my sins, even things I know God has forgiven me--the more I want to lash back and condemn others and remind them of ALL the things they have done wrong..to let them get a taste of how it feels to constantly be reminded of the things THEY have ever done wrong..

I know what I have done wrong..I know the sins I have committed..God convicts me of those, and they are between me and God, for us to work through together...I don't need a constant reminder from everyone else..yes, we are supposed to talk to others about things they are doing wrong, and then we are supposed to take others as witnesses to talk to them..but then we are to let God deal with them..we've done are part..we let them know "hey this is wrong" but, we shouldn't keep reminding them..we need to learn to step back and allow God to work in their hearts about those things...the best piece of advice I have ever gotten was from a friend of mine's mom..

She told me..when others keep reminding me of everything I have done wrong..just say, "thank you for letting me know how you feel, I will talk to God about this..and He and I can work on it together to make the changes" she explained this takes their role of playing god in our lives away..and gives that role back to God..

You sound like someone with a world of wisdom. I am going to be a good Christian and forgive.

Something else I have found..I can't be a 'good Christian" unless I let God have a bigger place in my life..it's not something "I" can do in my own power..I have to learn to let God be God..and stop trying to step in and take control over things that are his responsibility..and even being a "good Christian" is one of those things..
I have to let Him really indwell me..and take over..in order for that to shine through..

There are two things you said here I'd like to address..

--But I am the same way because whenever we converse a lot of times it ends up escalating where I put him down because I can't get my point across to him. You so badly just want them to understand but you can talk until you're blue in the face and it doesn't help.---

TR- You can't make him understand..and he doesn't HAVE to understand..just as you don't HAVE to understand why he feels the way he does..just accept they are your feelings and they are his feelings..acknowledging them goes a long way..
which is what Dr. Harley means when he says' to validate each others feelings..it doesn't mean you have to agree or even feel the same way...
just learn to accept that is how the other person feels..and it's okay for them to feel that way..
but you don't HAVE to feel the same way..or even think the same thoughts..it's okay to disagree..

--He says that's the way I am. I also will wear the armor of teflon from here on out. --

TR- You don't need a teflon armor..it sounds like in some ways you already have that..you need to let the armor down..and learn to feel what you do
and accept them as your feelings..and learn to understand why you feel them (God put them their for a reason)and accept them..but it doesn't mean you need to stay around the person who always inflicts pain on you..you can stay away from them..

--I think I've said a total of 30 words in the past 3 days. As much as I miss talking as friends it's so much easier on my nerves not to talk at all.--

TR- I've learned this isn't the way to go..all it does is prevents you from feeling anything..you end up ignoring your feelings and this isn't a good thing..because you eventually become to numb to feel anything at all..

--And I hope you're right about him coming back to me someday after realizing that he's made a mistake because I would love nothing more than to have the strength to tell him to go take a "flying leap".--

Is this really what you want? or is it the hurt talking?? personally..I think it's more the hurt talking..and that you really would love for him to come back and work on your marriage..so things would be okay between the two of you again..and have an even stronger relationship..

Hi Thorned Rose: Thanks so much for your knowledgeable words. I need to work so hard with the "forgiveness" thing. Everything you say makes so much sense. I am going to continue counseling w/ my pastor and hopefully that will help. From here on out I will rebuke those awful feelings of anger & resentment. It sure helps to get other people's input. I will let God do his thing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />