As I go along in the healing process, I am struck by the fact that there are so many people here on the entire discussion forum who still want to work on their marriage, no matter what the problems that have occurred in the past - whether adultery, family problems, work problems, addictions etc.

What is it about us that makes us want to work it out instead of run away and start anew?

I've read that there are several stages of marriage, and that all marriages have rocky times, but that if you are able to work through those times, then you can have wonderful strong marriages.

Why don't people want to work through those rocky times - or at least why weren't they married to us?

I also wonder how many other marriages are ending where both spouses mutually agree to leave - does this ever happen? Is someone always dumped?

I'm also thinking about 100 years ago, when divorces weren't so prevalent. What happened? Did the husbands and wives just cheat on each other for the entire marriage if they weren't happy, or did they jsut stay in horrible marriages, and if they did, why?

It could be a societal thing, tied to an absence of religion in families, or it could be that our spouses all have FOO problems, or that they have some other mental quirk.

Thoughts anyone?

K

a 100 yrs ago or longer

</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">most women did not have a choice</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">many women died in childbirth</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">many famlies were just too busy scratching out a living</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">people didn't live to be that old</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ August 26, 2002, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: sing ]</small>

GIIC: It's a good question. I just think it's a combination of a lot of things. Definitely, one element is society. Everyone wants a fast fix. Take a pill, you're cured; find a new mate, you're happy. It is a very "me" oriented society; no one wants to put forth the effort to stick it out. Why, when there is someone else waiting around the corner that is the answer to all their problems?

I think mental illness, substance abuse, etc. also play a big role in some instances (I think that is the case in both our circumstances).

I also think it is too easy to get divorced (and probably married also). I wish in my state there was the requirement that you attend at least one counseling session together before the papers are filed. Unfortunately, I live in a no fault state where, if a separation agreement is signed, the FJ goes to the judge for his signature and it's over. Just like that, no hearing, nothing.

100 years ago, I believe there was lots of cheating going on too. But back then it was taboo. Now, with Hollywood, TV, movies, etc. it just seems so acceptable. Just my opinion....

I know I am trying to work on mine no matter what-and I guess the reason why is what I have learned from my parents. I was raised in a house that when my parents fought-they worked it out. My parents are still married, my grandparents and most of my other family members. I was also raised in a Christian home and going to church. I guess I want to stick by my beliefs. I know that Divorce is a sin. Believe me I do many things wrong and do not make Christian like decisions alot of times, but something this serious I try to stick with my beliefs. I feel when I made a vow to my husband and in front of God that I would stay through good and bad time. It is really hard not to walk away or give up-- but I am trying: )

There was a thread on GQII a while back from osimois, Bramble Rose posted there about her WH making a decision to come back to the marriage for the childrens sake, not that he loved his wife at this time, but has learned to love her again.

It was a good thread!!!

I believe many did that same thing they chose to work out the difficulties for the childrens sake!! That is awesome to love your kids that much, to sacfrice for them in that way!!!

I am not happy about my soon to be divorce, my STBX was not willing to put his kids and family before his own selfishness, I believe that a great deal of our problems here in the US are because of the "ME attitude" the selfishness of individuals, be happy at the time, I could go on and many can add their own thoughts here. As we are the ones here looking to deal with the aftermath of what our spouses have done, doesn't seem we are the ones with the selfish attitudes.

JMHO, Dawn <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Pick your favorite:

* They are foolish, we are smart.

* They don't care about anyone else, we care about everyone else.

* If it's broken, they throw it away...we take it out of the trash and repair it.

* They don't eat leftovers, we do.

* At antique auctions, they see trash, we see treasures.

* Their cup is half empty, ours is half full.

* They are looking for someone to blame, we are wondering where we went wrong.

* They ignore their concience, ours is awake 24 hours a day.

(written with a smattering of sarcasm, of course!)

BW

Actually, me and my husband both decided on divorce, and it was uncontested, and went very smoothly!! I think both of us had come to the realization that it would NEVER work. I tried for so many years and nothing changed. I do, in fact, think he had affairs during the course of our time together, but nothing like that was going on at the time of divorce. (I had left him and filed for divorce 2 other times and went back with him)
I care alot about him, but he basically wanted to be single, and me take care of everything. He did pretty much what any single guy would do, and he thought that was alright. Our marriage was more of a "room-mate" thing. Not much of a marriage.
I think i had just tolerated it for so long, and approached him with wanting a divorce, so together, we looked for an attorney, and went together and agreed on everything.
I wish it would have worked out, and i feel i gave it all I had. Actually, if i hadn't brought up the divorce thing again, we would have probably been married still. Any man would have loved the arrangement!!

I wonder about the model described in "Crazy Times". She feels the balance of power in the relationship is stuck, and this is what leads to the failure of the relationship.

This description speaks to me.

Those who may choose to stick it out may have a more balanced "power" trip..

And Patricia Evans in the "Verbally Abusive Relationship" talks about the "power over" model. No sharing of truths there..

At this stage of my development I feel the balance of power, of boundry, is a telling clue. FWIW

Good topic. Right now, you may remember, I'm reading and doing research on the effects of divorce upon children. I agreed to give my H 30 days during which time I would do the reconsidering, and I am doing that.

He also agreed to do research on emotional infidelity, and I asked him last night whether he has done anything on it. He said he has found 4 5 or 6 websites on the subject.

Here's what I've learned: People who divorce are more likely to have divorce in their own families of origin. Their example is that when things become too difficult you can survive ending the marriage. We replay what we saw our parents doing.

During the 60's more people divorced. It lost its stigma. During the 70's it became more usual still. Now there are spots on school forms and camp forms that indicate that not only are the parents names likely to be different, but that the parents names may be different too.

We also pay more attention to our "feelings" rather than to our ethics.

Sorry if I sound preachy. I am wrestling with this a great deal lately. By the time I filed I was years past feeling that there was no hope for our marriage because of my H's involvement with another woman and his treating me like the invisible man.

We're struggling. 100 years ago I would not have been able to think about divorce.

In my family my mother divorced my dad and my stepfather. Both events damaged me and my sister very deeply and lifelong, and the ripples are still going on. However, faced with the same situation myself, I understand why she made her choices and how hard they were for her. I wish I could tell her, but she's not alive any more.

I loved BW's response.
I think in my case there were mental health issues that I didn't see (either chose not to see, or were hidden). However, just like your's GIIC, my H is fighting for custody, when before he never spent time with my precious children. I'll need to fight, mainly because I don't think he's capable of raising these children, even 50% of the time.

Giic:

I think it's clear that the process of working out the problems within a M is 2 difficult for most people, and so many just give up. The problem with doing so is that they don't learn from THEIR mistakes (which must have been part of the problem, whatever it was).

I've wanted 2 quit MANY times since D-day. But then I realize that, as CSue said 2 me, "Wherever I go, I take me with me." Problems and unresolved issues and all!

Things that are truly rewarding take LOTS of very hard work 2 achieve. It's sad that we don't all have the support of forums like this 2 help us through the rocky periods of our Ms.

There are many reasons:

the easy ones:
1) socio economic freedom and equality for women
2) social acceptance of more hedonistic reactions
2) repeating FOO patterns and reasoning (the apple does not fall far from the tree!)
3) hereditary disorders passed on that makes putting up with their crap/or their crap doesn't get very far any more, tips the perceived balance of power too far in the wrong way
4) hormonal changes of peri/menopause, men included.
5) learned values that come to the surface with children, that are different than when single.
6) taught dysfunctional coping skills, or was not taught effective coping skills
7) taught dysfunctional parenting skills, or was not taught effective parenting skills
8) power trips

My X has disorders, and a huge clash and conflict of values. . . . plus grew up the product of two very selfish, disordered, manipulative women, who have a history of marrying very conflict avoiding husbands, throwing fits, and being very manipulative with guilt, etc. . . . she was told that being rich was bad, the rich were always put down, and sympathy was always given to the blue collar class and the public service careers. . . she was also not brought up to understand money, how to use it, and what it means, other than it is bad. . .

so when I changed careers, went from a blue class career to a high level executive career, all the FOO and power issues hit her warped perception, and she felt she had no choice because I was now rich, and she could not get sympathy any more. . .
(her words, paraphrased!)

FOO issues - she said "that since her parents should have divorced, aand didn't, we had to get divorced!"
"I was too independent!" (translation - i don't manipulate very well!)

K, still not back to work full time? or bored with out the kids?

wiftty

When me and xw was in a counseling session together the counselor asked me what kind of home and marriage did I come from? I said I had my original parents till they died...

He asked my wife what kinda home did she come from? She said her parents were married about 5 times each.

So the counselor expounded on later to us that, me being a BS was willing to stick it out in this rough time because that what was exampled before me in my home growing up.

With my WW he said she saw mostly when tough times come in marriage "you run" the typical mentality of a conflict avoider.

I remember when the affairs were first discovered rather than face why she was doing it and correct the issue, she said she just rather run out of the marriage, but didn't know why.

Am I missing something, or did Wiffty just insult the heck out of K?

quote from wiffty:
K, still not back to work full time? or bored with out the kids?

Surely no one would be implying that raising kids, including a newborn is not work, or could in any way be mis-construed as boring?

Hope I'm wrong, please correct me! Please!

BW

<small>[ August 28, 2002, 08:32 AM: Message edited by: bachelor's wife ]</small>

Thanks for the responses -

And wiftty - yes to one, no to two.

BW - Don't worry, I'm not insulted, you have to know wiftty to understand - he's very DRY and exceedingly honest about what's on his mind and direct. I think the real message was - and wiftty, correct me if I'm wrong - is that I need not be mulling over things I cannot change and focus on things that I can - like getting off this computer and living life! Although somehow wiftty found his way onto this post and he's working (out of the home) - but maybe he's bored without his kids.....................

To all of the others:

I pretty much agree with it all - selfishness, mental disorder, FOO issues, society.

I do have to say that I am really proud of everyone here who has looked inward during a most deparate time in their lives and who acted according to their conscience and did not fall prey to all those ills that plagued our WSs. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

There is hope for humanity yet! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thanks everyone for helping to get some closure into my life by helping me to sort through some of this mess.

K

Personally, I think my ex is weak and I am strong! He also is trying to relive his youth - never rebelled or acted out in any way...

As for the family of origin thing, we are the opposite. As the BS, I come from a family with several divorces and never wanted the same for myself or my kids (maybe that's why I took him back five times!). To this day, I am ashamed to say that I am divorced even though it was not my fault. On the other hand, my ex comes from a family of no divorces and much to the consternation of his whole family, he bolted <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> !

I have been divorced 2 times and my parents have been married to each other for 45 years. Can't understand, guess i just didn't know what to look for.

I have grown up considerably this time, and don't think i will EVER marry again, not even interested in a relationship at this time. Just tired of being hurt. The 11 years i was with my second husband, were all too draining for me. I am enjoying my life with my kids totally by ourselves, and my kids have adjusted wonderfully <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Both of my ex-husbands parents were never divorced either, hmmmm??? makes you wonder???