Has this characterized anyone else's failed marriage -

one party has some controlling and manipulative character traits and was EITHER a total Taker or a total Giver?

Meaning there was never any attempt at a policy of joint agreement or compromise?

Then when I stopped being the Giver all the time, ExH got mad and wasn't happy anymore - go figure, but I simply had to get my needs me somewhere else, kids, church, committees etc.

For whatever reason, I think that this is what my marriage was all about and why I was so unhappy - ExH was a Taker and would just give in every once in a while to keep me happy, but we never come to any joint agreements about anything.

And know tis is why we have to go directly to court and cannot use mediation - because we never "mediated" in our marriage.

So, does Plan A ever work on these people? I'm beginning to wonder, because ExH freaked out with Plan B. So what was I to do except for maybe to realize the marriage was really over alot sooner, although I had to try to save it.

I do feel like a weight has been lifted from me - or like a negative cloud has been removed from overhead. I never realized how ExH just brought me down instead of lifting me up. He really never got to know me after we were married. Quite a shame on his part, I'm really a great person to know. I just had to get myself out from under him to realize that again.

Well, just had to put those thoughts down. Do they make sense? Anyone had any similar experiences?

Still working on me. K

ditto. And by the way, are our xH, STBXH's somehow related or something?

Very controlling. Not much change with A. Just he noticed I was very nice and that's about that. Just kinda went further down that road with plan A. Only reactions from B. Wierd, huh?

Anyone else with only progress from B?

Hmmm. Maybe has to do with personality types or something. Research here could help...

GOD IS IN CONTROL,

I could have written every word you posted.

controlling and manipulative character traits

We have a joke (well sorta)in the family " You can always tell an Irishman but you can't tell him much !"

never any attempt at a policy of joint agreement or compromise

When I first read MB materials, I was elated. Finally I could put my finger on specific things where we had problems. I felt out of sorts for years. It was his way or no way.

when I stopped being the Giver all the time, ExH got mad and wasn't happy anymore

OH YEA, eventually he stayed away more and more and found someone else to be a giver.

I simply had to get my needs me somewhere else, kids, church, committees etc.

We were in withdrawal prior to A's (this round) I had given up and realized that's all there is. I always felt he loved me (in his own sick way) but didn't (doesn't) have a clue how to have a healthy relationship

I never realized how ExH just brought me down instead of lifting me up.

My sentiments exactly. I know that when all the dust settles, that I will be OK, but there is still a lot of crap to go through. After reading Mars and Venus on a date, I realize that even from the beginning I wasn't lifted up. Too late, I was already madly in love with him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

He really never got to know me after we were married. Quite a shame on his part, I'm really a great person to know.

These guys just don't know what they are missing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Do they make sense? Anyone had any similar experiences? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I've read on these boards where some had really good M's prior to A's and these must be easier to rebuild. If you have NO foundation and aren't willing to prepare the site, mix the concrete, lay the foundation, let it cure .....then there's nothing left after the A

Thanks for sharing!

D.

Only reactions from B.

I had a similar conversation today with my BIL (WH's brother). He said my H never did anything until he was totally backed against the wall. Never thought about consequences and only realized something was wrong when it was a heaoed on him.

I am very thankful that BIL talks about the whole situation and helps out where he can. (Me and kids, not his brother)

D.

Well THANK GOD - I'm not really crazy after all.... ExH will never believe that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Peachy - what a thing to have in common, but at least we know that for the most part it's not us.

Seems that you're doing a great job on your own self discovery, and I've been wanting to post on that thread, but have been in the mire of court proceedings that have taken over my life. Hopefully I'll have a small break soon.

And does chasing 3 active boys around count for exercise? I've pretty much gotten back to prepregnancy weight, and then some, but I want to work on toning everything up. I'll see what kind of fitness routine I can put togeher.

WGTT - ExH is not Irish, but and adopted Italian an doctor to boot, so that should count.

And now that ExH realizes he gets his daughter LESS than he even did before going to court, I now get a phone call - please lets work things out .........

Wait until he gets my proposal. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Oh, and I am going to get the book. Thanks for the tip!

K

<small>[ September 05, 2002, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: God is in Control ]</small>

Hi all!

I can't say how much all of you have lifted me up...even when you have been down. It's so nice to know that I'm not the only one out here with the same EX!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Controllling? Manipulative? YOU BET! I gave and gave and gave until there was no *me* left to give. When I started taking MY life back I was *selfish*, *self-absorbed*, *cruel*...etc. etc..

I have NO idea about Plan A or Plan B...I found this site because I was hurting (and still am to some extent). I couldn't understand how someone would just throw away 20 years without a fight. Instead he just picked up and found others to take over being the doormat (including two of our children).

I laughed when I read your post GIIC...the part about "he never knew me".... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> My kids are hearing things about me now and are in absolute amazement.."You did that mom?????" (My ex never *allowed* me to talk about anything to do with me because it took away from HIM).

WillGetThroughThis....ditto...ditto...ditto!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> "If you have NO foundation and aren't willing to prepare the site, mix the concrete, lay the foundation, let it cure .....then there's nothing left after the A". I never KNEW about the affairs before we divorced! All I knew was *we* were buiding a bridge (our marriage), but he was the one sitting in the middle fishing while I ran back and forth like an idiot working on the foundation from both ends and maintaining all the repairs. I just wanted to know when the heck he'd quit fishing and help me build...until there came a point where I realized he didn't EVER intend on working on *us*! SHEESH...if only I discovered that a whole lot of years earlier! (20 years of marriage all ONE sided! What the He!! was I thinking????)I couldn't deal with his abuse anymore and he was removed by the courts so it wouldn't get any uglier than it was. After...he stalked me, broke into my house etc....with the police NOT responding because he was *friends* with them (rural area)...forcing me to move for protection.

I find most of my days are great...but man...when the days are bad, I am thankful to read your posts on here.

Do you think these men drank the same water or something???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

K,

Finally, you are seeing reality. . . i am in the same place. . . and about to take sh!thead back to court for CS reduction, after she reneged on our mediated agreement, both money and sharing time, and then because she was getting sympathy from the lawyer by making me look really horrible. . i am taking her back to court for reduced CS and all of a sudden, she is trying to be nice, using all the statements like trying to work out the situation, talking like rational people. . . after she went and spent at least half of her half on a car. . . and turned me over to the state enforced collection agency without discussing anything with me. . .

my mom, who works at the same school as X, said she looks terrible, and she does. . . . she has tons of body image issues, control issues, OCD issues, narcissism issues. . . the list goes on. . . i mentioned the changes about to occur with son's new school, and her reply was all about her. . . nothing about son and what he has to do. . . so there is an interesting battle brewing. . . and we shall see how she likes court now. . .

so now can you see that the world doesn't revolve around ourselves, but how it revolves in all types of directions. . . by all different types of people. . . my personal regret is that i saw alot of this crap before i got married, but didn't know how to interpret it, and thought that "love" could cure all the problems that she said she had. . . . .

that's why i say, educate yourself, so you can see these things very clearly with other people, and know when to steer clear. . .

oh, and the books, just go to amazon, or b&n, and start going through the psychology section, buy and read, my favorites are: "If you meet the Buddha on the Road, Kill Him!", Sheldon Kopp,
"The Road less travelled" by m scott peck. . .
"Passionate Marriage" by Snarch. "Private Lies" by Pittman. . .

and although i realize you are religious, religion and God has nothing to do with your husband's actions/reactions. . . . as you are finally starting to see, i believe. . .

wiftty

Hi K-

I just had to add my two cents worth. As you already know, my x is an alcoholic. Controlling and manipulative yes, yes, yes. He used guilt as his weapon of choice and resorted to threats, occasionally violence when nothing else worked. He still tries the guilt (the whole voice tone changes, it is quite pathetic) and threats with me to no avail (he is proving to be a slow learner), but as I look at him with new eyes I see right through it. My X is totally insecure, but comes across as self assured, confident, etc. He masks it well. He was also, thanks to the insecurity, a very jealous type.

My X was a total taker. You simply couldn't do enough for him. As for giving, if it was convenient for him he gave, otherwise forget it. I myself am the giving type so he ate me alive. After years of giving and my needs not being met I got very resentful and went into total withdrawal. Of course my withdrawal ended when he started the A and left, but all my effort was met once again with nothing.

I can honestly say that I am so thankful now that it didn't. I was so willing to work things out that nothing would've changed and I would have been miserable. Although it was by far the worst thing I have ever gone through I now can look back and be thankful that all of this happened. By his refusal I was forced to work on me and in the end find myself. Although I would prefer my children to live in a two parent, loving, and stable home, I now admit ours wasn't and my children are now much better off. My oldest who is almost 10 talks openly about it because she too senses the calm.

To top things off, I was totally content with myself and my life and on my way to happiness on my own when I met a great man. He has added so much to my life and I have already experienced things with him that my x and I never shared because of his inability to open up and both give and receive love. I also know that all my work on myself has helped me in this relationship immensely. I am secure enough to let my feelings be heard. There is also a mutual relationship of give and take. It is so wonderful that I can't describe it. I don't know where it is headed, but I thank God daily that it has happened.

I guess what I am trying to say is that as you already know we have a lot in common right down to being left by our x's during our fourth pregnancies. You are a bit behind me in the timeline, but as I read your posts I see so much of me and how I felt. You are opening up to yourself and the truth about your husband. This isn't easy, but it is so worth it because with it comes contentment and then happiness. The best thing is that you learn that you are a great person who is able to make it on your own, someone to share your life with becomes a want, not a need. Then usually as a result of this self confidence people (men) start to notice and are drawn to you. You will know when you are ready to move on and start dating and thanks to the wisdom gained with age and experience including the horrific experience your x put you though you will be much better equipped to find the right person to be happy with.

Now I know I am babbling, but I hope you see where I am coming from.

Take care and God bless!

K

PS- I would love to hear about your kids. Just think, my baby who I was 3 months pregnant with when her dad left is now 13 months and simply wonderful!

Yes, I have seen the light!

ExH actually admitted to me today that he was either a taker or just gave in to me temporarily on things - for whatever reason.

So, it's official - his way is when things get too tough, just bail!

And, since he has done NOTHING to change, historu will repeat itself with OW.

And NOW since he's backed up against the wall - well as I said in realier post - he's finally willing to negotiate. Negotiate? I don't think that word in our collective vocabulary right now.

Yes, wiftty, I mistook control and possessiveness by him of me for love.........

Not to happen again.

K

{{{K}}}

It's a long road, isn't it? I like finding out that we are pretty neat people after all, huh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Elan... my kids are amazed at what I have done in my life, too. They never knew some of what I did cause stbx had them mind warped that I didn't care for them.

When I tried Plan A, it just further ingrained in my stbx's mind that I was a giant doormat. When I tried Plan B it really freaked him out, too. He can't stand the thought that we have gone on with our lives and he has no control over it.

I'm learning to set better boundaries so that when he does harass us, I take it in stride. Not that I think we deserve it, just that I've tried to get it to stop by police reports and all and they do nothing. Must say it was very empowering to the girls and I when after my D picked up the phone accidentally, I walked over and picked up the receiver from the table and gently put it back down on the phone. No words, no slamming of the phone, just quietly asserting that he has no right to call. HA, he called right back and we let the answering machine pick up.

No, no joint agreements, it was always his way or the highway. I can safely say I am beginning to feel that I am back in the swing of real life, I'm using my education and field experience to have my business grow, and I know that I have wonderful friends who care about me and my children. I think I am going to join the out of the box email list because there is that FEAR issue that kind of steps to the forefront at times. I know I am going to be OK, and I know my children are happier and safer than they have ever been previously.

Lori

K,

I saw OM #3, or now that we are divorced, BF #3, and for everything that she told me she wanted, he isn't and i am. . . and she is trying to get our daughter hooked into them because he has kids the same age. . . so they are "friends" well, how long will that last if the kids all of a sudden don't get along. . . instead of mom's date, they daughter's friend. . . barf, puke!

she told me that i wasn't tall enough, he's slightly taller, but much wider. . . and not athletic, and we used to be athletic together, until she got into the new group of people. . . and not a step up i might add.. .

and she won't let me help out coaching, but she doesn't have a clue as too what to do, and she will keep daughter back just to be her coach. . . ugh! so its all bizarre, . . . . very, very bizarre. . . . and sad sometimes. . . to see my daughter go from a championship team down to recreational team, just so she can get mom as her coach. . . sick, just sick. . .

wiftty

WGTT - ExH is not Irish, but and adopted Italian an doctor to boot, so that should count.

GIIC - Yes, Italian count !! I dated one before met WH. At the time I fell in love with WH cuz he listened to me and didn't judge and we were affectionate with one another. That didn't last long! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

To top things off, I was totally content with myself and my life and on my way to happiness on my own when I met a great man. He has added so much to my life and I have already experienced things with him that my x and I never shared because of his inability to open up and both give and receive love. I also know that all my work on myself has helped me in this relationship immensely. I am secure enough to let my feelings be heard. There is also a mutual relationship of give and take. It is so wonderful that I can't describe it. I don't know where it is headed, but I thank God daily that it has happened.

still reeling, That's what I pray for. I'm so happy for you - please post some more about your growth and finding a healthier R.

Thanks,

D.

GIIC,

Can't believe I didn't see this thread couple of days ago!

My H is nicer to total strangers than he is to me! As far as he is concerned, he lives in the "real" world, and I'm just a free-loading stay home mommy who can't keep house to his satisfaction. Certainly not worthy of being allowed to participate in any decisions.

POJA to him is like a holy cross to a vampire!

He has just about sucked the life right out of me, and he is furious that I'm not just letting him do it any more.

Controlling people are only happy when one of us is willing to be their victim. Thier world falls apart when their spouse isn't victim material.

I admire your guts, GIIC. You are not crazy.

BW

<small>[ September 07, 2002, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: bachelor's wife ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I never realized how ExH just brought me down instead of lifting me up. He really never got to know me after we were married. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep! Yep yep yep to most of what's in this thread. To my H's credit, I'm not aware that he had affairs, and he's never been violent. Ever. I think what really brought me to my moment of decision for separation was a thread in a forum for passive aggressive personality disorder. One woman described how she had broken her arm in the living and was prostate on the floor. Her H was cooking dinner, walked into the living room, saw her on the floor, and returned to the kitchen to finish dinner. !?!?!?!? Several other women chimed in on that thread with their own horror stories of medical emergencies being ignored by their H's. I've been fortunate not to find out what would happen to ME if I became injured or ill, but in my mind's eye I imagined myself bedridden, dying of dehydration... while my H is in the garden running up a $200 water bill. There's just a whole lot of nothing between us. I don't know how else to describe it.

I'm definitely the giver and he's the taker (although he would disagree, his standard tactic to any word out of my mouth). I believe giving doesn't have any strings attached. I try not to have a scorecard mentality. But after while, my goodness, I *do* need something more than a nice house, a pretty garden and coffee in the morning. I can't live on a starvation diet of kind words. I can't make what I have to say fit into two sentences while he rambles on ad nauseum. Even a simple conversation is imbalanced. He claims to hear and listen to what I say. He claims to "do everything for me" but it's too much trouble to consult with me about what I want or need.

I could go on, but fortunately for y'all, the dinger went off and my comfort food of brownies are ready. I'll close by saying my H is in his own place now for 8 months. He has no refrigerator, and there's two at the house. He called tonight and said how he got sick on some food he ate today, and how he's tired of so much restaurant food. I told him once again he's welcome to the refrigerator of his choice (there's two here at the house). He said it probably wouldn't fit through the door of his house, and then launched into the miserable experiences over the summer of trying to make do with a styrofoam chest. Not my problem! He's the one living on Taco bell. He can have a refrigerator any time he wants, and I'm not going to try and figure out why he refuses to take something he's entitled to and something he needs.
-----
The brownie instructions say to let cool for an hour. Fat chance. Rereading my post, it sounds contradictory about him being a taker and then refusing a refrigerator. It just doesn't make sense, and that's what is so frustrating. Ultimately, I gave him a choice. He could keep his behavior or he could keep me, but not both. It was driving me crazy. He chose his behavior. From a distance, I've seen how he's built up a new support network for his dysfunction. Having no frig and no stove, he's garnered sympathy from his new friends who bring him food on a regular basis. He appears to be Mr Compassion as he feeds every stray cat in sight when he can barely afford to feed himself. Yet I am the one who cares for his bird that he abandoned, the bird whose water dish was dry as a bone the day he left. I figure he neglected the water dish for a week, probably more, for the dish to be so completely dry. And this was after I envisioned myself dying of dehydration at the hands of his care! No mas!

<small>[ September 08, 2002, 12:33 AM: Message edited by: lonesome heart ]</small>

Hello GIIC,
I feel like I'm lost lately. I can no longer access the site from work, and I don't have much time at home to surf.
I hope you're doing well. yes, my H sounds just like your H. I've been working on why I'm a giver. ACOA (Adult Child of Alcoholic) or just Codependent traits. But it's definitely time to take care of myself and change what I can.
Time to care for ourselves now.
Have you read the book "The Prayer of jabaz". I jsut need to ask God to Bless me and he will.
Time for me. Take Care.
If you ever want to e-mail, catch me at mcelros@yahoo.com

Newly (newly nothing, this is a long process).
However,